School patronage

Dades · 08-02-2013 10:45am

I'll seeing parallels between the Christian brothers and the Quinn family. :pac:

I love they way the use the trust as a third party. "The trust may require compensation". Reminds me of the catholic hospital lawyers in the US arguing they couldn't be sued because a foetus wasn't a life. Is there no end to this organisation's duplicity?

Well, if the government can ignore consitutional property rights already in 2013, maybe they can do it again.

kylith · 08-02-2013 11:40am

I have a couple of things they could say

1) Since we've been paying your teachers and funding the general running of the school for the past X years, I think you'll find that, in fact, you owe us money.

Or

2) How about we just knock that amount of money off of the amount of compensation you owe us for all the children who were abused in the care of the CBS?

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 11:49am

kylith wrote: »

I have a couple of things they could say

1) Since we've been paying your teachers and funding the general running of the school for the past X years, I think you'll find that, in fact, you owe us money.

Or

2) How about we just knock that amount of money off of the amount of compensation you owe us for all the children who were abused in the care of the CBS?

Or 'we' could rush through some piece of legislation at midnight which seizes RCC property in lieu of payment of debts - schools being the obvious choice as we have a use for them and with the property market as it is we'd never be able to off load those bloody great convents etc.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha -like that would ever happen.

robindch · 08-02-2013 12:12pm

Dades wrote: »

I love they way the use the trust as a third party.

The trust was set up by the Christian Brothers, for the protection of and benefit of, their properties and aims. From the ERT's history page:

Edmund Rice Trust wrote:

The Edmund Rice Schools Trust was an initiative of the Christian Brothers. A team under the leadership of the late Br. John Heneghan worked to investigate and produce the memorandum and articles of the company and the foundation. After a long period of discernment and consultation with all school partners the Characteristic spirit of our schools was agreed to focus upon five key elements. These were incorporated into our Charter. The Episcopal Commission granted approval for the formation of the Juridic Person and the Civil Company was established. The Company and Foundation began operation on 1st September 2008. The Edmund Rice Schools Trust is the Trustee body responsible for schools formerly under the Trusteeship of Christian Brothers.

Note that the Christian Brothers owed millions to their victims under the Residential Institutions Redress Board settlement, money which by and large has not been paid. Meanwhile, the assets of the Christian Brothers were stripped and transferred into the Edmund Rice Trust, making collection hard if not impossible, and the ERT is now demanding satisfaction from the state.

The total, sheer, blatant, open, naked hypocrisy is almost, but not quite, beyond belief.

Zamboni · 08-02-2013 2:55pm

I've been digesting this story all morning.
I am seething.
Currently trying to disband criminal thoughts running through my head on what I'd like to do to this list of people.

http://www.erst.ie/aboutus/our-people/

expectationlost · 08-02-2013 5:17pm

this via conor ryan irish examiner is how much cbs offered the state 127m http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/444521-brief-for-minister-quinn-ahead-of-july-2011.html

don't know who much they've paid yet

The Christian Brothers said while it has financial assets of about €50m, it will not be able to release €20m of its extra commitment for up to 15 years because of the downturn in the property market. Three sites it put on the market last year could not find a buyer.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/counting-the-cost-of-abuse-redress-209377.html 2012

robindch · 08-02-2013 5:49pm

Conor Ryan wrote:

The Christian Brothers said while it has financial assets of about €50m, it will not be able to release €20m of its extra commitment for up to 15 years because of the downturn in the property market. Three sites it put on the market last year could not find a buyer.

€50 million? That miserable figure does not include the €480 million worth of assets they stripped into the ESRT.

It's an enduring mystery to me why these orders are not hounded through the courts as multi-million euro swindlers.

lazygal · 08-02-2013 5:53pm

robindch wrote: »

€50 million? That miserable figure does not include the €480 million worth of assets they stripped into the ESRT.

It's an enduring mystery to me why these orders are not hounded through the courts as multi-million euro swindlers.

Maybe they taught the Quinn family a thing or two about asset stripping.

robindch · 08-02-2013 6:47pm

lazygal wrote: »

Maybe they taught the Quinn family a thing or two about asset stripping.

No doubt. The Quinns got caught.

expectationlost · 08-02-2013 7:00pm

of course why could not the other patronage bodies and the state jointly pay full price? it seems to be just these trust bodies citing endless difficulties and if only we coulds for delaying anything happening at all

recedite · 08-02-2013 7:26pm

The State chose to go after the Quinns and crack open their trust funds.
But when dealing with the religious orders, it chose to indemnify them against excessive compo claims ("excess" as used in insurance-speak)
The State has chosen to leave the trust funds alone.

lazygal · 08-02-2013 7:30pm

I remember when the compo deal was done by Michael Woods there was a lawyer on Prime Time who'd dealt with the church in Canada and the US after abuse and compensation deals. He said you cannot trust a word they say, they lawyer up and use every single civil law available to move money, hide assets and get out of promised compensation. He said they were the most nefarious, underhanded, single minded corporation he'd ever dealt with and said if he was advising the government he'd warn them that the church had probably already started asset hiding and stripping before the deal was even agreed. Looks like he was right.

expectationlost · 08-02-2013 9:21pm

recedite wrote: »

The State chose to go after the Quinns and crack open their trust funds.
But when dealing with the religious orders, it chose to indemnify them against excessive compo claims ("excess" as used in insurance-speak)
The State has chosen to leave the trust funds alone.

don't think the quinn is good example because before they went after them they conspired to save them too

expectationlost · 08-02-2013 9:23pm

and now you have competing interests

Basin Lane Community Education Action Group

Press Release
8 Feb 2013
Basin Lane residents appeal to Edmund Rice Schools Trust (ERST) to listen to the needs of the community in school building debate

(Dublin, Feb 8, 2013) Residents of Dublin 8’s Basin Lane are appealing to the Edmund Rice Schools Trust to listen to their appeal for the use of Scoil San Seamus to made into a community centre, offering support services such as school clubs, adult education and capacity building within the community.

The residents have been embarking on collecting as many signatures as possible from those that live in the Basin Lane area in order to show ERST, local Government and statutory agencies the need for a community space.

Contrary to media reports the local community understands that the schools were amalgamated to have a strong local school and not to facilitate another school in an area with dwindling role numbers. While we welcome educational choice in Ireland we feel the needs of our local community and its residents are paramount.

With high levels of unemployment we feel that we could facilitate support groups, government departments and statutory agencies to actively address the lack of supports in this area of need.

Phyllis Fitzgerald, a local mother and resident of Basin Lane said “we appeal to those in the decision making process to consider our calls for the use of Scoil San Seamus as a community centre. The area suffers from high unemployment, low education achievement, anti-social behaviour and poverty. We see this building as the first building block in raising a community from its knees and to help deliver and promote a more prosperous future and to help widen the horizons of our children. “

We hope the Edmund Rice Schools Trust embed a legacy in the community and one of which Edmund Rice would be proud off

a school should be used as a school, it could still be used in the afternoon for community activities

expectationlost · 18-02-2013 11:55pm

Church hands over portfolio valued at €41m http://t.co/PRgBkgb2 vid indo

and the doc itself Re: Properties transferring under the Indemnity Agreement, position at 31 December 2012 http://t.co/zG2rfhV2

wonders if there any strings attached with those deeds

recedite · 19-02-2013 12:34pm

Probably no strings attached, although some of the schools may be run by the VEC already? This may or may not be the school referred to in Terenure.
BTW €41M is 3% of the estimated cost to the state of redress so far, as quoted in that article; €1.4 Billion.
Nevertheless, paying up the 3% is still a welcome move.

Cabaal · 29-08-2013 4:12pm

Sorry to restart this thread but seems relevant to this thread

http://dublinpeople.com/article.php?id=2733&l=100#.Uh9cG7MkvGM.twitter

…it has emerged that there are not enough school places to cater for the growing number of families seeking an alternative to denominational education across the south of the city.
According to Educate Together CEO Paul Rowe, the Dublin 2, Dublin 4, Dublin 6, Dublin 8 and Dublin 10 areas all need new schools…

“Simply put, Dublin city needs more Educate Together schools. Evidence of growing parental demand is undeniable. Our schools and start-up groups are reporting that hundreds of children are being signed up to our already over-subscribed waiting lists.”
Mr Rowe said demand for school places was particularly acute in Dublin 2 and Dublin 8.

RainyDay · 29-08-2013 5:24pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Sorry to restart this thread but seems relevant to this thread

...Mr Rowe said demand for school places was particularly acute in Dublin 2 and Dublin 8.

Though the RTE News report on the new ET school in Portobello last night emphasised that they still had some places available for this year!

recedite · 29-08-2013 7:15pm

I saw the RTE news report, and the school principal was there desperately unloading furniture and doing carpentry work to try and get the classrooms ready in time, in a temporary building. From the news report there is apparently a vacant ex-christian brothers school up the road which they were expecting to move into, but the trust fund that owns it has been haggling with dept of education for 10 months and refuses to let them into it.

Its an absolute disgrace. These are the same b'stards who are refusing to pay up their full compensation liabilities to the govt. redress board.

I'm not surprised there are places available; some parents would have started their kids elsewhere because of all the uncertainty.

expectationlost · 29-08-2013 7:46pm

the one recedite is referring to

Consultation process over schools' inclusivity
http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2013/0828/20428514-consultation-process-over-schools-inclusivity/

this is really insidious the priest claiming the community is holding him back

although the old film censor building doesn't look too bad as temporary school.

todays report about 71,000 new kids entering school
http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2013/0829/20429100-school-days-beckon-for-71000-new-students/

Obliq · 29-08-2013 8:07pm

expectationlost wrote: »

this is really insidious the priest claiming the community is holding him back

Would love to know HOW exactly they're doing that. Perhaps he needs a push from the ET crowd also calling on him and mentioning how they're part of the community too....

lazygal · 29-08-2013 8:19pm

Obliq wrote: »

Would love to know HOW exactly they're doing that. Perhaps he needs a push from the ET crowd also calling on him and mentioning how they're part of the community too....

But didn't jebus clearly say in his many sermons on school patronage that catholic buildings can only be used for Catholic book learning, so the heathens are on their own?????

Obliq · 29-08-2013 8:22pm

lazygal wrote: »

But didn't jebus clearly say in his many sermons on school patronage that catholic buildings can only be used for Catholic book learning, so the heathens are on their own?????

I KNEW it. Being brought up atheist, I missed so much of the ONE TRUTH it's just not funny. :mad:

robindch · 29-08-2013 10:36pm

expectationlost wrote: »

this is really insidious the priest claiming the community is holding him back

If they're restraining him from interacting with kids, then I really have to wonder who's doing the PR on this.

Morag · 30-08-2013 2:38pm

robindch wrote: »

If they're restraining him from interacting with kids, then I really have to wonder who's doing the PR on this.

RC Patroned Schools which are on Church owned lands and have the local parish priest on the board of management often have to endure the parish priest popping over into the school with out any forewarning. They will just be in the teachers break room or do surprise class visits often with out letting the school Secretary or principal know they are in the school.

So I can see why an ET school renting an currently disused RC School on Church owned lands is an issue also there is that wee thing about canon law on church owned lands that it is considered in effect and schools which are can not promote teachings/ideology/run workshops which conflict with church teachings.

recedite · 30-08-2013 4:16pm

Morag wrote: »

So I can see why an ET school renting an currently disused RC School on Church owned lands is an issue......conflict with church teachings.

If the land is owned by a trust fund representing the interests of the former Christian Brothers, it is not up to the local parish to rent out the building to the ET school.
It should be a question of the trust fund transferring ownership to the State, as part payment for redress payments. The State would then have the option of leasing the building to the new (active) school patron at nominal rent, or giving it to them.
What is actually happening I'm not sure, but it looks like the trust fund is
(a) trying to sell it for loadsa money
(b) refusing to let the heathens use the vacant facility (on moral grounds) until after transfer of the property title is complete.

Morag · 30-08-2013 5:04pm

The Rice trust was set up to remove the assets from being directly owned by the christian brother order and falling under the purview of the courts in compensation cases.

eyescreamcone · 30-08-2013 5:07pm

Morag wrote: »

The Rice trust was set up to remove the assets from being directly owned by the christian brother order and falling under the purview of the courts in compensation cases.

Now you see it, now you don't.

A true miracle at last!

expectationlost · 30-08-2013 11:08pm

Move from current religious instruction in Catholic schools may begin by 2014 http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/move-from-current-religious-instruction-in-catholic-schools-may-begin-by-2014-1.1510094

“I hope that over a relatively short period of time – but having respect to the process of the delivery of education in the school itself – that the choice of schools will be much more diverse than it currently is. And that in areas where there is just the one school which is funded by the taxpayer, and to which all children go, not only would that school be inclusive and welcoming as they are at the moment, but they would be respectful to the rights of children as indicated in the various international agreements that we’ve signed up for,” Mr Quinn said.

first time I've heard him mention rights in terms of international agreements, one hopes he was referring to the right to not be in religious school rather then the right to a religious education (which isn't being disrespected at the moment)

“In the areas [where] there will be no additional school and this is the only school that’s serving that community, we have to find a way in which existing rights, underpinned by international law and decisions of the Oireachtas, can be implemented in the classroom and the school – and we are trying to explore that,” he said

Mr Quinn said that while the decision to replace traditional religion teaching with the teaching of world religions is a matter for the patron of the school to decide, the object of the exercise was to recognise “the primacy of parental choice”.

Atheist Ireland have continue to be very strong on this, perhaps Quinn's reference to international agreements is them rubbing off on him, but as ever this wave at international agreements flies in the face of them.

Does the Government believe that the level of protection afforded to a human right – such as the right to freedom of religion – should depend on the preference of the majority in a particular area?
http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2013/08/does-the-government-believe-that-the-level-of-protection-afforded-to-a-human-right-%E2%80%93-such-as-the-right-to-freedom-of-religion-%E2%80%93-should-depend-on-the-preference-of-the-majority-in-a-par/#comment-16189

The Following is an extract from the Submission by Dr. Alison Mawhinney (Bangor University) to the UN Human Rights Committee with respect to the Adoption of the List of Issues related to Ireland’s fourth periodic report under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

In 2008 the UN Human Rights Committee raised concern regarding the human rights of secular parents and their children. They stated that:-

“The Committee notes with concern that the vast majority of Ireland’s primary schools are privately run denominational schools that have adopted a religious integrated curriculum thus depriving many parents and children who so wish to have access to secular primary education. (arts. 2, 18, 24, 26).

The State party should increase its efforts to ensure that non-denominational primary education is widely available in all regions of the State party, in view of the increasingly diverse and multi-ethnic composition of the population of the State party.”

Article 2 the right to be Free from Discrimination.

Article 18 the right to Freedom of Conscience.

Article 24 the rights of the child.

Article 26 the Right to Equality before the law.

It is clear that there is a human rights issue here which the Irish state is ignoring as it has done nothing since the comments of the UN in 2008 to protect the rights of minorities in denominational schools.

The main points of the Submission are as follows:-

“The approach of the Government, and the Forum, is deeply flawed and fails to meet the recommendation of the Human Rights Committee ‘that non-denominational primary education is [made] widely available in all regions of the State party’.

First, from a human rights perspective parental surveys of the type recommended are highly objectionable and cut across the essence of human rights law with its focus on the right of the individual. Under this approach, respect for your right to be protected from unwanted religious teachings and from discrimination comes to depend simply on whether there is a sufficient number of like-minded individuals living in your geographical area. Or, indeed, in some cases, whether, when the poll was carried out, there was a sufficient number of like-minded individuals in the area.

The second problem with the Government’s approach is that non-Christian parents and children living in rural areas will continue to be denied access to non-denominational education contrary to the Human Rights Committee’s recommendation. No change in management will be made to the 1,700 Christian schools in these areas. The Government has made it clear that for these schools transfer of management is not an option.

The Government notes that these schools will be asked to adopt a protocol of inclusiveness. However, it is very unclear how the application of such a protocol would fit with the ethos of a denominational school. For example, will a Christian integrated curriculum continue to be taught? Will religious education classes continue to be doctrinal in nature? Will religious assemblies still be held? Will sacrament preparation – which takes up a very large amount of time – continue to take place within schools? Will Catholic teaching on the sinfulness of abortion and homosexuality continue to be taught?”

Hotblack Desiato · 30-08-2013 11:16pm

After 2.5 years, just more waffle, no progress.

What's he going to do, cut funding to RC schools where he wishes a change in patron? not likely

Even if he did, you can guarantee that the 'we have a right to be catholic' crowd will come out in force and you can guarantee that he and all the other politicians will back down.

P!ss off catholics = loss of votes

P!ss off atheists = no one cares

recedite · 30-08-2013 11:51pm

ninja900 wrote: »

cut funding to RC schools where he wishes a change in patron

That would be an effective plan alright. If the political will was there.

TheChizler · 02-09-2013 6:19am

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/legislation-to-create-more-fair-and-transparent-school-enrolment-process-1.1512680

Changes being implemented to the admissions policies of secondary schools. No changes to religious preference of course, I don't think anybody was expecting anything like that, too big an issue to get in without a fuss.

Obliq · 02-09-2013 7:40am

TheChizler wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/legislation-to-create-more-fair-and-transparent-school-enrolment-process-1.1512680

Changes being implemented to the admissions policies of secondary schools. No changes to religious preference of course, I don't think anybody was expecting anything like that, too big an issue to get in without a fuss.

Couldn't quite believe I was hearing this on the news just now - you can only apply for a school 11 months before they start? MAYHEM! Oh dear, oh dear - so Quinn has pretty much purposely missed the biggest trick of just plain and simple banning any discrimination, in favour of discrimination on whatever grounds aren't on his list. Religious discrimination not on it, sigh.

"One of the biggest changes is that waiting lists will end. While some schools may be allowed to clear existing waiting lists, in the main these “first come first served” lists will go and different criteria will be applied in enrolment. These will be chosen by the school itself but must be published, making discrimination difficult."

There will be secret lists of course. Who in the name of reason, is going to be ok with not knowing if their child won't get into a school, less than a year before they start? Especially if you are atheist or an unsuitable religion for the local N.S.'s? Wow. I suppose that the fact everyone will be in the same panic is quite fair, but of course that will only encourage schools to publish criteria placating the right religious families locally, which is still within their rights.

Bannasidhe · 02-09-2013 11:00am

I cannot for the life of me understand why a simple catchment area system cannot be drawn up and children who live within that area are given first priority for NS schools.

If the adults use that schools as their local polling booth - their children are in the catchment area of that school - simples!

My mother lives between two NS schools (one boys and one girls) and at going in/getting out time it is impossible to get next or near my mother's due to the insane traffic/parking and I know for a fact that many of the kids in both schools live a considerable distance away - both schools are considered among the best in Cork city so are always over subscribed and children who live within walking distance end up having to travel to schools further afield as they didn't make the 'cut'.

It's insane.

Obliq · 02-09-2013 11:05am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's insane.

Totally insane that they didn't take this opportunity to say WHAT criteria are acceptable/unacceptable. The I.T. article here actually has the cheek to define COI membership as a "soft barrier" to enrollment and DOESN'T MENTION THE RCC!!!!!!!!
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/new-school-entry-rules-will-ban-application-fees-waiting-lists-and-interviews-1.1512675

Just.....what?

Aodhan O'Riordain TD calling them "Excellent reforms from Minister Ruairí Quinn" :mad:

Cabaal · 02-09-2013 11:10am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I cannot for the life of me understand why a simple catchment area system cannot be drawn up and children who live within that area are given first priority for NS schools.

If the adults use that schools as their local polling booth - their children are in the catchment area of that school - simples!

This would actually seem the most environmental way of running schools as well as you may not even need as many buses put on, people are closer so more should be able to walk or cycle to school....in theory. That is of course if their over protective parents will let them!

For example where i live atleast two buses are put on to bring kids in from 10miles away for the secondary schools, even though there's plenty of secondary schools in the area they live in.

Now of course you'll likely have schools that are too full, in such cases thats where they need investment etc.

Bannasidhe · 02-09-2013 12:08pm

Cabaal wrote: »

This would actually seem the most environmental way of running schools as well as you may not even need as many buses put on, people are closer so more should be able to walk or cycle to school....in theory. That is of course if their over protective parents will let them!

For example where i live atleast two buses are put on to bring kids in from 10miles away for the secondary schools, even though there's plenty of secondary schools in the area they live in.

Now of course you'll likely have schools that are too full, in such cases thats where they need investment etc.

Ironically, when I was a child neither of these schools were considered 'desirable', quite the opposite in fact. It was where the children who couldn't get into 'good' schools ended up - the boys school was very small and the girls was in a tumbled down old manor house so both were attended only by local children who had no other option.

The parents of those children engaged in massive fundraising and the boys school was extended and a new girls school was constructed - it took 20 years to complete but they did it.

Now, ironically, local children can't get in to either unless their parents/siblings attended...many of those parents no longer live in the area but drive their children in often from a considerable distance and seem to believe they 'own' the schools but don't 'get' that their parent's took control of these 'undesirable' schools and made them desirable so that the children who didn't have the option of commuting could still have an excellent education in their local community....

RainyDay · 02-09-2013 12:11pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Now, ironically, local children can't get in to either unless their parents/siblings attended...many of those parents no longer live in the area but drive their children in often from a considerable distance and seem to believe they 'own' the schools but don't 'get' that their parent's took control of these 'undesirable' schools and made them desirable so that the children who didn't have the option of commuting could still have an excellent education in their local community....

There seems to be a grand tradition of using Granny's address when applying for school places to help the little darlings get a place in Mammy's school, even though they are commuting from miles away and not part of the community for playdates, sports, parties etc.

Cabaal · 02-09-2013 12:21pm

RainyDay wrote: »

There seems to be a grand tradition of using Granny's address when applying for school places to help the little darlings get a place in Mammy's school, even though they are commuting from miles away and not part of the community for playdates, sports, parties etc.

The issue I have also is all that time in cars/buses removes a quality of life from the child and parent, this is time the student could spend at home:
- Playing
- Being social with friends
- Doing homework
- Sports event

Bannasidhe · 02-09-2013 12:44pm

RainyDay wrote: »

There seems to be a grand tradition of using Granny's address when applying for school places to help the little darlings get a place in Mammy's school, even though they are commuting from miles away and not part of the community for playdates, sports, parties etc.

Absolutely - that was why I suggested the 'rule' re:catchment area be based on polling stations of parents/guardians. Mind you - people may end up voting from Grannies...:P

It was suggested to me that my granddaughter used my mother's address to get into the girl's school I was referring to - so we could have had a great-granny's address being used. Child in question lived at the other side of the city. :rolleyes:

Then there was the option of grandchilder going to a school near the university I work in - some arrangement has been made for staff. This particular school was the school my mother went to in the 1930s/40s but had had fallen on hard times - but again local people rallied around and took control and now it is 'desirable' and highly attractive to academics working locally but living bloody miles away.

We didn't actually go to those 'local' schools as we had 'options' - i.e. a granny who lived near the desirable schools in the 1960s/70s - but I ended up in a private school in the city centre due to irreconcilable religious differences and an inability to keep my mouth shut.

recedite · 02-09-2013 12:51pm

Obliq wrote: »

Couldn't quite believe I was hearing this on the news just now - you can only apply for a school 11 months before they start? MAYHEM!

I don't see the problem with this. Do you really need to know what school they have a place in when they are still in nappies?
What if you were on a "waiting list" (or more accurately a "suitability list") and you wanted to move to another area. You'd have to give up the place. Then you'd be bottom of the (secret) "waiting list" in the new area.Standard procedure then is to go lick-ar$ing the local godman to secure a place in the new area, thereby displacing someone else.

If the whole procedure is transparent, with published criteria for who gets priority, then any religious discrimination will be shown up for what it is. Living locally and having siblings already in the school are both justifiable reasons for giving priority in a State funded school. IMO.
Religious persuasion, length of time in the area, and "who you know" are not.

Obliq · 02-09-2013 1:11pm

recedite wrote: »

I don't see the problem with this. Do you really need to know what school they have a place in when they are still in nappies?
What if you were on a "waiting list" (or more accurately a "suitability list") and you wanted to move to another area. You'd have to give up the place. Then you'd be bottom of the (secret) "waiting list" in the new area.Standard procedure then is to go lick-ar$ing the local godman to secure a place in the new area, thereby displacing someone else.

If the whole procedure is transparent, with published criteria for who gets priority, then any religious discrimination will be shown up for what it is. Living locally and having siblings already in the school are both justifiable reasons for giving priority in a State funded school. IMO.
Religious persuasion, length of time in the area, and "who you know" are not.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. It would certainly be an improvement to see public notice of what way a school is going to discriminate. I'm thinking in particular of ET schools I suppose, where you certainly would need to be on a list when they're still in nappies.

But also, say that I'm surrounded by a choice of 5 catholic schools, only one of which is within walking distance/short drive and the others are within 12 miles from my house (rural area). If they all publicly display that their enrollment criteria will include RCC membership, and the teachers can't tell me my child would be accepted until less than a year before they start school because a first come/first served basis is not in operation any more, then presumably none of the schools would be inclined to tell atheist/other religious parents that their child has a place until it becomes clear there are some left over (at which time there will be a lottery, apparently).

It's potentially less good than it is already, as a school might not be able to guarantee a place till the last minute. Transparency won't make a difference. The state is already aware that this is a problem and have just shoved it on down the line.

iguana · 02-09-2013 2:19pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I cannot for the life of me understand why a simple catchment area system cannot be drawn up and children who live within that area are given first priority for NS schools.

If the adults use that schools as their local polling booth - their children are in the catchment area of that school - simples!

That only works if all schools are very similar. What if your local school is a Catholic NS and the one 6 miles away is an Educate Together? Do the Atheist, Muslim, Mormon, etc families in the first area have to send their children to the NS while the Catholic families in the second area have to send their kids to the ET even though they'd prefer the NS?

recedite wrote: »

I don't see the problem with this. Do you really need to know what school they have a place in when they are still in nappies?

Because people want to get on with their lives but due to the undersupply of places, people who want an ET school place for their child are left in complete limbo until they know if their child has a place or not. Take Limerick with 2 ET schools for the whole (geographically large) county. What do you do now if you want to buy a house and have a child who will start school in 2018? Do you take a gamble and buy a house near the ET even though the family houses there are some of the most expensive in the city and county? Giving up the chance to live in a bigger, cheaper house, nearer your family for the sake of a school place your child may never get? Or do you buy the house you like more in the area you'd like best if you don't count the schools available and then end up having a car commute to school or having to send your child to a school with an ethos you are very uncomfortable with so they can have a more relaxed journey twice a day? Or do you just wait and keep renting despite the shítty state of rental stock in this country and it's utter unsuitability for family living?

eyescreamcone · 02-09-2013 2:33pm

Religious indoctrination should not be paid for by the state.

We should aim for an inclusive society.
Faith schools are anti-inclusive.

My biggest fear is that the present system promotes the establishment of muslim schools and all that goes with it.

This ghettoisatation of our education system will bite us down the road as we will alow muslims to remain separate and different to the rest of the population.

No religion schools will include everybody and force the integration of muslims (and all other faiths).
This has to be for the better.

Cabaal · 02-09-2013 2:41pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Religious indoctrination should not be paid for by the state.

We should aim for an inclusive society.
Faith schools are anti-inclusive.

My biggest fear is that the present system promotes the establishment of muslim schools and all that goes with it.

This ghettoisatation of our education system will bite us down the road as we will alow muslims to remain separate and different to the rest of the population.

No religion schools will include everybody and force the integration of muslims (and all other faiths).
This has to be for the better.

and that my good friend is exactly what is going to happen in the future unless things change.

Other faith schools will be allowed to be created, so then we'll have them Educate Together and Catholic "ethos" schools. Of course the joke will be the catholic one's will continue to be tax payer funded.

Manach · 02-09-2013 2:54pm

Cabaal wrote: »

the catholic one's will continue to be tax payer funded.

... if only those Catholics paid taxes, instead of the state funding by shaking the magic money tree.

Sarky · 02-09-2013 2:56pm

Morag · 02-09-2013 3:06pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I cannot for the life of me understand why a simple catchment area system cannot be drawn up and children who live within that area are given first priority for NS schools.

If the adults use that schools as their local polling booth - their children are in the catchment area of that school - simples!

My mother lives between two NS schools (one boys and one girls) and at going in/getting out time it is impossible to get next or near my mother's due to the insane traffic/parking and I know for a fact that many of the kids in both schools live a considerable distance away - both schools are considered among the best in Cork city so are always over subscribed and children who live within walking distance end up having to travel to schools further afield as they didn't make the 'cut'.

It's insane.

We already have that, it is set along parish boundaries, both catchment for schools and polling stations.

kylith · 02-09-2013 3:06pm

Manach wrote: »

... if only those Catholics paid taxes, instead of the state funding by shaking the magic money tree.

How about this; because everyone pays taxes, regardless of religion or lack thereof, the school system is secular, teaching comparative religion instead of indoctrinating into one specific faith, and if the Catholic church wants to fund Catholic-only schools with a religious ethos they can pay for it themselves. I'm sure that gold throne in the Vatican would pay for a few teachers.

Bannasidhe · 02-09-2013 3:43pm

iguana wrote: »

That only works if all schools are very similar. What if your local school is a Catholic NS and the one 6 miles away is an Educate Together? Do the Atheist, Muslim, Mormon, etc families in the first area have to send their children to the NS while the Catholic families in the second area have to send their kids to the ET even though they'd prefer the NS?

This was the system in place in both London and Sheffield when Sonofmine was going to primary school (and may still be).

All children living in the catchment area were entitled to a place at the local national school but this did not oblige parents to send their children to that school as there were also faith based schools catering to a wider catchment - for example where I lived the Catholic school was within walking distance, as were the Muslim/Hindu ones and the Jewish school was 3 stops away on the bus.

If you wanted your children to go to a faith based school - you applied directly to that school and were prepared to pay a small fee.
What was unheard of was for parents to send their children to a NS in a different area to the one they lived in unless there were compelling reasons - and places available - they simply wouldn't get in and would be told to go to their local NS.

The NS my son attended did teach about religion, what they never did was teach that one particular religion the true religion. They went to great pains to teach the kids about all religions and organised trips to synagogues, temples, mosques, various Christian churches etc. It was always ' Muslims believe this - Mohammad, would you like to show us around the mosque now and tell your class mates what happens and what you believe. Next week we are going to the synagogue and Nathan will tell us all about being Jewish.'

While I may have had issues about some of the pedagogy used in teaching academic subjects (don't get me started on their insistence on using only the bloody phonetic alphabet!) I have nothing but praise for how English NS handle the subject of religion and their enrollment policies plus the fact that they were very much based in the local community so worked hand in hand with the local community centre (where I worked) and always had a visible presence in local festivals etc etc.

School patronage

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