School patronage

Peregrinus · 27-11-2020 2:43am

I take Robin's point. Nevertheless, I think what seems to have gone wrong here was calilng the girls together to address them on this point, and not the boys. This frames the issue as a girl's problem- either the girls are more prone to flout the uniform rule than the boys are, or girls flouting the uniform rules is a problem in a way that boys flouting them isn't, or a bit of both. And immediately you're on very dodgy ground there. At best, you've left yourself very open to misinterpretation; at worst, the interpretations being offered are not complete[/i\ misinterpretations.

Treppen · 29-11-2020 2:16am

With regards to patronage, why was the sibling rule ended so quickly.
Surely the most humane thing to do would be to have phased it out over 8 years.

I'm not really 100% sure why it was ended in the first place...
Was it because students from outside the parish were getting in before catchment?
How is that possible if catchment typically trump's the eldest child who applied was outside the catchment.

Is this to do with putting the Auntie's or Grannies address down to get them in?

https://twitter.com/carlobrien/status/1332654961923076099?s=20

lazygal · 29-11-2020 2:53pm

It's an assertion of power by the archbishop as patron. Nothing more than that. They want to let everyone know they might let more kids in but they won't do so without calling the shots elsewhere.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-11-2020 10:53pm

Anti-family, anti-parent. We need to take control of the schools we pay for out of the hands of unaccountable churchmen.

lazygal · 30-11-2020 10:24am

All patron bodies are unaccountable. ET and irish language patron schools can have enrolment policies that work against families and children.

robindch · 30-11-2020 1:18pm

The Irish Times digs a bit more into the Carlow Leggings Controversy - finds that social media and lack of verification of claims is a major problem:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/school-leggings-controversy-anatomy-of-a-social-media-firestorm-1.4419309

Irish Times wrote:

For many school principals who watched a social media storm envelop Carlow Presentation College over its school uniform policy, there is a trepidation that it could just as easily have been them. “There is a constant, low-level worry that something will get distorted and blows up online; WhatsApp groups are the worst,” says one school principal, dealing with a similar uniform-related controversy at the school. “Someone gets the wrong end of the stick and it spreads like wildfire.”

Another principal who has also been in the eye of a recent controversy online agrees. “It’s such a dangerous weapon. Individuals get named or attacked before any facts are established. But you can’t get into a row on social media . . . so, you keep your head down and hope it blows over.”

Schools are increasingly in social media’s crosshairs in rows over uniforms, discipline or treatment of pupils. Once, concerns would have been raised directly. Now, allegations spread before answers catch up. In the stampede towards instant judgment, say principals, truth, context or nuance often gets elbowed aside. In the case of Carlow Presentation College, it all started innocently.

Due to Covid-19 regulations – which limit access to changing rooms – students there are allowed to come to school wearing their training gear on the days that they have PE. Staff at the school had, however, grown concerned at the lapses in uniform policy, which stipulates that a tracksuit only should be worn for PE. “What was being noticed by staff, myself and others, over the last month and a half or so is that on PE day when the students were coming in, particularly the girls, the uniform regulations weren’t being followed and it was becoming more of a fashion show more than anything else,” school principal Ray Murray told RTÉ.

Together with colleagues, Murray decided to issue a reminder to classes individually last Friday. Rumours – now known to be inaccurate – began to swirl among some students later that the decision had been taken due to discomfort among male members of staff. Some were unhappy that girls, not boys, had been singled out. Murray said he checked with the relevant teachers to ensure nothing inappropriate was said. He said he was assured on multiple occasions that this was the case. “We have female deans of discipline who are mothers themselves who are talking to girls and I know there was nothing inappropriate, wrong, or uncomfortable that was said to them,” he said.

What happened next, he says, bemused the school at first. Traffic on social media about the school began on Friday night, attracting more and more attention. Later that night, an anonymous online petition was established to highlight “sexism against female students in school by the staff and students”. All of this was based on unsubstantiated, and, as it turns out, inaccurate reports. Soon, more than 1,000 had signed.

When the mother of a student emailed the principal on Saturday, upset over what was alleged to have been said, the dean of discipline for the class responded to the mother via the principal. “The mother rang me half an hour later to say, ‘I’m sorry for jumping the gun. I was going on what other people had told me’,” Murray said. But the initial claims had gained even more online momentum, with 3,500 signates and a plethora of inaccurate allegations.

When some mainstream media began to run with the story on Tuesday, repeating the claim - again, one that was wrong - that the leggings were being banned because they distracted male teachers, the audience grew. Many media outlets did not wait for the school to respond before reporting the allegations. By now, in the full glare of national media, the school issued a short statement on Tuesday night. It stated that there has been no change in the school uniform policy – but it did little to counter the narrative.

With news dominating newspaper front pages and radio shows, Murray took to the national airwaves on Wednesday morning to set the record straight on what happened from the school’s point of view. In the meantime, the original petition has reached almost 10,000 signatures, with no let-up in the original allegations. Faced with the controversy, the Department of Education has asked for a report.

For principals watching on, Carlow is a parable for our times. Four girls’ schools in Dublin alone are dealing with smaller-scale, but similar unfounded controversies, says one principal. “The rage will die down and the story will move on, but it’s much harder for the principals and teachers who have worked so, so hard in the best interests of students,” says one principal. “It’s risky responding publicly,” says another, “We don’t have PR advisers . . . If you’re defensive, you can be made to look foolish. If you get into a row, it looks bad. You can’t win a lot of the time.”

lazygal · 30-11-2020 1:48pm

Why should we take the comments of the principal more seriously than the girls who were singled out by teachers?

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 30-11-2020 3:35pm

lazygal wrote: »

Why should we take the comments of the principal more seriously than the girls who were singled out by teachers?

The number of girls who actually reported anything was very small given how many girls were spoken to. It also seems they didn't understand what teachers being driven to distraction over the uniform issue actually means.

The journalists who ran with this story stated they had 4 girls willing to verify their story. This is a very small number given the number of female students who were spoken to on the issue.

Anyone who has teaching experience on here will tell you how a gang of friends can totally misread a situation and turn it into a drama.

This isn't always the case but, in this instance, the blame seems to lie with the very poor standard of journalism.

Deleted tweets, but no apologies seem to point in this direction.

Most notably, Hazel Chu yet to delete her tweet which is very disappointing.

lazygal · 30-11-2020 3:57pm

The girls were separated and accused on radio by the principal of engaging in behaviour like a fashion show.
I wasn't impressed by how he sought to minimise the legitimate concerns and didn't explain why the girls were spoken to alone.
It seems we're not past the era of thinking the word of a man in power carries more weight than children in Ireland.
I question the priorities of a school that's so obsessed with what is worn in the middle of a pandemic that they need to waste their time on this in the first place.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 30-11-2020 4:10pm

lazygal wrote: »

The girls were separated and accused on radio by the principal of engaging in behaviour like a fashion show.
I wasn't impressed by how he sought to minimise the legitimate concerns and didn't explain why the girls were spoken to alone.
It seems we're not past the era of thinking the word of a man in power carries more weight than children in Ireland.
I question the priorities of a school that's so obsessed with what is worn in the middle of a pandemic that they need to waste their time on this in the first place.

Schools have a dress code, they continue to be applied in the vast majority of schools during this pandemic with slight, stated alterations, due to covid. Homework policies, discipline policies etc. also continue to be applied.

The girls were spoken to as the trend of wearing leggings, and not the school tracksuit pants, was relevant to the girls.

I'm sure if the boys were arriving to school in leggings, they also would have been spoken to.

lazygal · 30-11-2020 4:16pm

I'm very glad my children's school doesn't have dress codes and if my daughter was treated like the girls in the school in Carlow I'd let her wear whatever she liked for the rest of the year.
Dress codes are not important but especially not during a pandemic and especially not important enough to hold assemblies about.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 30-11-2020 4:20pm

lazygal wrote: »

I'm very glad my children's school doesn't have dress codes and if my daughter was treated like the girls in the school in Carlow I'd let her wear whatever she liked for the rest of the year.
Dress codes are not important but especially not during a pandemic and especially not important enough to hold assemblies about.

In your opinion.

A dress code can be very important for the disadvantaged who may not have a sufficient quantity of suitable clothes for each school day. Not to mention the pressure students might feel to keep up with their peers.

That's why schools have dress codes.

lazygal · 30-11-2020 4:32pm

Schools have dress codes because of tradition and a desire to impose control.
There's no evidence whatsoever that uniforms eliminate the issues that you claim.

Bannasidhe · 30-11-2020 4:33pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

In your opinion.

A dress code can be very important for the disadvantaged who may not have a sufficient quantity of suitable clothes for each school day. Not to mention the pressure students might feel to keep up with their peers.

That's why schools have dress codes.

That argument is blown out of the water when the cost of 'branded' uniforms is factored in - not to mention many schools have a 'can only be bought in x shop' policy.
Many schools have 'dress codes' as you call them for branding purposes - it's their livery. It has nothing to do with helping disadvantaged students.

Now, generally I am in favour of uniforms as I think they can be a great leveller but many schools have ridiculous uniform policies.
My Grand-daughter has to wear an ankle length skirt - why?

lazygal · 30-11-2020 4:36pm

And why does it matter what type of leggings are worn for PE? Surely the exercise is the point. Not the policing of what's on people's lower halves.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 30-11-2020 4:43pm

As regards the cost. There are also uniform grants for those in disadvantaged areas.

Uniforms could definitely be cheaper but they'd be cheaper than a variety of the latest gear to keep up with your better-off friends.

Bannasidhe · 30-11-2020 5:06pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

As regards the cost. There are also uniform grants for those in disadvantaged areas.

Uniforms could definitely be cheaper but they'd be cheaper than a variety of the latest gear to keep up with your better-off friends.

Not necessarily.

The cost of the uniform has to be met in full before schools starts (unless by some miracle your child hasn't grown) while 'ordinary' clothes can be spread across the year and sales taken advantage of. The uniform cost also has to be met at the same time as all the other back to school costs hit.

Ní Dhubhda is hoping to avoid replacing her daughter’s school uniform this year. “Everything is crested, and has to be ordered from a specialist uniform supplier. If I did have to replace it, the skirt would be €50; her jumper is €35; plus €8 for each shirt. Jackets are around €65; tracksuit bottoms are €50; sports tops are €25.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/parenting/crested-uniforms-ipads-and-amenity-fees-the-true-cost-of-free-schooling-1.3960460

€50 for a track suit pants - what planet are these people on?

No, there are not uniform grants for those in disadvantages areas. There is a mean-tested grant available to those in receipt of certain social welfare benefits regardless of where they live.
The grant is €150 for children aged 4-11/ €275 aged 11- 22.

There is little to no help for those in paid employment but on lower incomes.

As I said, I am in favour of uniforms (my son went to both kinds of schools) but to claim it is an act of altruism by the schools to aid disadvantaged students simply isn't true in many cases - if it was there wouldn't be €50 tracksuit pants available only from one supplier.

Treppen · 30-11-2020 5:07pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

As regards the cost. There are also uniform grants for those in disadvantaged areas.

Uniforms could definitely be cheaper but they'd be cheaper than a variety of the latest gear to keep up with your better-off friends.

I often ask my classes which they'd prefer. Hands down it's uniform all the way. But then again it's a uniform school, people go with what they know. Schools who call teachers by first name think bits the best thing since sliced bread, schools who don't, don't care.
We've relaxed uniforms a bit due to Covid but with proviso of no visible brand names... and that's the uniform policy now. Everyone knows it .

If there's a uniform policy in play then just stick to it and move on, rather than getting out the pitchfork and Humble bragging about how forward thinking your non-uniform school is.

Single sex schools are better,
Mixed is better
Uniform is better
No uniform is better
Birds of a feather

lazygal · 30-11-2020 8:06pm

No one has to put up with a nonsensical policy in a school the state is paying for.
Uniform policies don't make any sense. They make zero difference to teaching or learning.
If the only option in an area is a school with rules that don't make sense it is entirely appropriate to challenge and or ignore them. And students shouldn't be singled out and forced to attend assemblies in a pandemic if stupid rules are being ignored. What a way to spread covid.

Treppen · 30-11-2020 8:30pm

lazygal wrote: »

No one has to put up with a nonsensical policy in a school the state is paying for.
Uniform policies don't make any sense. They make zero difference to teaching or learning.
If the only option in an area is a school with rules that don't make sense it is entirely appropriate to challenge and or ignore them. And students shouldn't be singled out and forced to attend assemblies in a pandemic if stupid rules are being ignored. What a way to spread covid.

Your conflating your argument for a non-uniform policy with adherence to best Covid practice.

Just because someone messes up and decides to call an assembly for whatever reason, doesnt mean they should abandon uniform. Conversely , you could argue if they had a clearer uniform policy in place no assembly would have happened.

What exactly was the nature of the assembly? How many students were assembled and where?

smacl · 01-12-2020 8:51am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Now, generally I am in favour of uniforms as I think they can be a great leveller but many schools have ridiculous uniform policies.
My Grand-daughter has to wear an ankle length skirt - why?

Maybe if they were cheap, practical, durable and didn't push gender stereo types. Being forced into any kind of skirt proved to an anathema to daughter who cycles as her main form of transport.

Bannasidhe · 01-12-2020 11:51am

smacl wrote: »

Maybe if they were cheap, practical, durable and didn't push gender stereo types. Being forced into any kind of skirt proved to an anathema to daughter who cycles as her main form of transport.

Cycling would be impossible in the ankle length monstrosity grand-daughter is forced to wear.
The only possible use I can see for it is attending some bizarre Victorianesque Highland Games.

Son went to High School in both Sydney and Brisbane where cheap, practical, non-gender stereo types uniforms were the rule. Both schools had a 'crested' fleece top which you bought from the school for $20au and a specific tie $5au, the rest of the 'uniform' could be bought anywhere. They had one written in stone dress rule - if wearing shorts (in the appropriate school colour) you had to wear matching knee high socks (this seems to be a 'thing' in Oz). Son never wore shorts....

Pupils could chose to wear trousers or skirt - and yes, sometimes the boys wore skirts (with knee high socks) because who is going to tell a 2 mtr tall Tongan that he looks girly in a skirt.

Mark Hamill · 01-12-2020 11:56am

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

In your opinion.

A dress code can be very important for the disadvantaged who may not have a sufficient quantity of suitable clothes for each school day. Not to mention the pressure students might feel to keep up with their peers.

That's why schools have dress codes.

Amazing how such pressure can only ever apply to students with what clothes they wear, and not their coats or school bags or bikes (if they have one) or cars (that they are dropped to school in) or even the condition of their schools books (eg new vs second hand).
And amazing that such pressure only seems to occur whilst on schools grounds and disappears the second they leave school and no-one gives a hoot what they wear.

Heaven forbid schools try and teach kids how to deal with such pressure.

Mark Hamill · 01-12-2020 11:58am

lazygal wrote: »

Schools have dress codes because of tradition and a desire to impose control.
There's no evidence whatsoever that uniforms eliminate the issues that you claim.

The amount of times I got in trouble because I didn't want to take off my jacket in a cold classroom. But as the jacket wasn't part of uniform, they kept trying to make me :rolleyes:.

Mark Hamill · 01-12-2020 12:02pm

Treppen wrote: »

I often ask my classes which they'd prefer. Hands down it's uniform all the way.

Yeah, I'm calling BS on that. And not even because kids want to dress fancy or show off or any of that nonsense. For the simple fact that school uniforms are uncomfortable. Nobody likes wearing them. If they did, then teachers would wear them (a teachers version of them) too.

robindch · 01-12-2020 12:59pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Nobody likes wearing them.

My own daughter is fine with uniforms and I gather the majority of her friends are too. She did two years in preschool wearing one, eight years in an Educate Together school without and is now back in a secondary school which requires them. I think this gives her enough experience of wearing them and not wearing them to have an opinion worth listening to.

We've discussed the topic a fair amount and I've left her make her own mind up about it rather than telling her that she should be shocked at it, or not, as the case may be. The main thing she likes about it is that it means she doesn't need to worry about what to wear to school - there's one uniform, a few copies of it, and that's that. No early morning angst about what to wear, no panic, no fashion-parading, clothes are virtually indestructible, and none of the, for example, "Oh god, should I be wearing my (fancy brand) trainers to school as it's all I have and I know that X is jealous or makes Y angry" nonsense which plagued the latter years in primary. Once back home, she exits her uniform almost immediately and returns once again, to life as a faddy, fashion-obsessed, normal teenage girl. She views her uniform in the same way that she views researchers wearing lab coats, police wearing their uniforms etc - a necessary, but forgivable, evil for one specific use in one specific context.

It's also fun to discuss why her wearing her uniform is sufficiently structurally different from various religious sects requiring women to wear religious outfits that the one is acceptable while the other one isn't - quite a fine distinction, it has to be said, depending upon how one turns it.

Bannasidhe · 01-12-2020 3:25pm

robindch wrote: »

My own daughter is fine with uniforms and I gather the majority of her friends are too. She did two years in preschool wearing one, eight years in an Educate Together school without and is now back in a secondary school which requires them. I think this gives her enough experience of wearing them and not wearing them to have an opinion worth listening to.

We've discussed the topic a fair amount and I've left her make her own mind up about it rather than telling her that she should be shocked at it, or not, as the case may be. The main thing she likes about it is that it means she doesn't need to worry about what to wear to school - there's one uniform, a few copies of it, and that's that. No early morning angst about what to wear, no panic, no fashion-parading, clothes are virtually indestructible, and none of the, for example, "Oh god, should I be wearing my (fancy brand) trainers to school as it's all I have and I know that X is jealous or makes Y angry" nonsense which plagued the latter years in primary. Once back home, she exits her uniform almost immediately and returns once again, to life as a faddy, fashion-obsessed, normal teenage girl. She views her uniform in the same way that she views researchers wearing lab coats, police wearing their uniforms etc - a necessary, but forgivable, evil for one specific use in one specific context.

It's also fun to discuss why her wearing her uniform is sufficiently structurally different from various religious sects requiring women to wear religious outfits that the one is acceptable while the other one isn't - quite a fine distinction, it has to be said, depending upon how one turns it.

I loved my school uniform.
It was designed in the late 1920s and they never saw the need to change it.
Beret, unvented blazer, gaberdine - it was wonderfully jolly hockey sticks and perfect for a school that had a certain St Trinian's outlook on life.
It was also very practical.

Mark Hamill · 01-12-2020 4:10pm

robindch wrote: »

Once back home, she exits her uniform almost immediately

That she immediately dumps the uniform at her first available opportunity kind of supports my point that they are not really liked.

robindch wrote: »

and returns once again, to life as a faddy, fashion-obsessed, normal teenage girl. She views her uniform in the same way that she views researchers wearing lab coats, police wearing their uniforms etc - a necessary, but forgivable, evil for one specific use in one specific context.

The context therefore seems only to be to move the angst and pressure associated with picking outfits to outside of school, rather than actually solve the angst and pressure.
You can solve the early morning angst by teaching kids to sort out their outfits the night before.
And to repeat my earlier post:

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Amazing how such pressure can only ever apply to students with what clothes they wear, and not their coats or school bags or bikes (if they have one) or cars (that they are dropped to school in) or even the condition of their schools books (eg new vs second hand).
And amazing that such pressure only seems to occur whilst on schools grounds and disappears the second they leave school and no-one gives a hoot what they wear.

Heaven forbid schools try and teach kids how to deal with such pressure.

School uniforms are a schools way of admitting such problems exist, but then washing their hands of them.

Bannasidhe · 01-12-2020 4:20pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

That she immediately dumps the uniform at her first available opportunity kind of supports my point that they are not really liked.

.

He said 'removes', not dumps.
What, you want her to spend all day in it 5 days a week?
Should everyone who has to wear a uniform also wear it all day every day not changing when they get home?

Changing out of your uniform when you get home is pretty normal - some people even change out of their not a uniform work clothes when they get home. Imagine that. They must hate their suits.

smacl · 01-12-2020 4:33pm

robindch wrote: »

My own daughter is fine with uniforms and I gather the majority of her friends are too. She did two years in preschool wearing one, eight years in an Educate Together school without and is now back in a secondary school which requires them. I think this gives her enough experience of wearing them and not wearing them to have an opinion worth listening to.

Each to their own I guess. My eldest went to an ET primary and a secondary with uniforms. She despised the uniform as did all of her friends. Apart from the fact they found it ghastly, and the aforementioned cycling, the other main complaint was that it was too cold in the Winter and too warm in the summer. The morning panics were also still there as while you might not have to choose what to wear what you did have to wear might be in the wash or need ironing. My youngest is going to an ET secondary and there is no issue with what to wear. Cool in the Summer, warm in the Winter and whatever she finds in her wardrobe that meets her current preference in style. (Unless of course it too is in the wash)

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I loved my school uniform.
It was designed in the late 1920s and they never saw the need to change it.
Beret, unvented blazer, gaberdine - it was wonderfully jolly hockey sticks and perfect for a school that had a certain St Trinian's outlook on life.
It was also very practical.

To be fair, something about adding any kind of a hat improves many outfits. You possibly missed out on the ankle length tartan skirt made from fibre rejected as being unsuitable for coarse tweed on the grounds of being too itchy?

Treppen · 01-12-2020 5:03pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Yeah, I'm calling BS on that. And not even because kids want to dress fancy or show off or any of that nonsense. For the simple fact that school uniforms are uncomfortable. Nobody likes wearing them. If they did, then teachers would wear them (a teachers version of them) too.

touched a nerve there I have.

Btw , just to further trigger your uniqueness:pac: I wear practically the same style every day. Shirt, suit trousers, tie.
I think it's great, zero hassle involved. Change when i get home. To me it's a uniform and I like it.

lazygal · 01-12-2020 5:40pm

Treppen wrote: »

Btw , just to further trigger your uniqueness:pac: I wear practically the same style every day. Shirt, suit trousers, tie.
I think it's great, zero hassle involved. Change when i get home. To me it's a uniform and I like it.

Great to be able to choose to have a certain style to wear at a time of your choosing.
By sixth class in our school the look seems to be leggings :eek:, jeans, or similar worn with hoodies/jumpers. Great to see the individual looks from those who want to stand out. No bullying about who wears what.

I can't see how bullying is resolved by making everyone dress the same. I had to wear glasses. Should the bullying have been resolved by making me wear contact lenses or making everyone else in the class wear frames so we all looked the same?

robindch · 01-12-2020 6:08pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

That she immediately dumps the uniform at her first available opportunity kind of supports my point that they are not really liked.

And I take off my sailing gear when I'm done sailing :rolleyes:

Mark Hamill wrote: »

School uniforms are a schools way of admitting such problems exist, but then washing their hands of them.

You can certainly spin it that way. Easier to view them as a means to avoiding certainly problems which are harder to avoid by other means.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You can solve the early morning angst by teaching kids to sort out their outfits the night before.

robindch · 01-12-2020 6:16pm

smacl wrote: »

My youngest is going to an ET secondary and there is no issue with what to wear.

It might depend on who's in the class too - a small number of fashionistos/as could exert social pressure on others to conform, and if these fashion-leaders are from higher-earning families, the kids of lower-earning families could end up annoyed that they had a hard time competing - which is unfortunately what happened in my own kid's class. It may not happen in every class, or even in a majority of classes, and I certainly don't have a clue if any reliable research has been done in this area which might answer the question any more accurately.

Bannasidhe · 01-12-2020 6:45pm

smacl wrote: »

To be fair, something about adding any kind of a hat improves many outfits. You possibly missed out on the ankle length tartan skirt made from fibre rejected as being unsuitable for coarse tweed on the grounds of being too itchy?

My uniform was blissfully lacking in tweed but the pure wool beret could be a bit scratchy around the scalp on a hot day, however I am fairly sure that Granddaughter is wearing exactly that skirt you speak of - a tartan pattern inspired by the legendary blood sucking midgies of the Isle of Skye.

Funnily enough, I noticed that the RC schools in Oz seemed to favour those skirts, always wondered about the thought processes that came up with that in a climate where 21c is considered so cold they close the outdoor swimming pools.

My sister went to a different school, she had Nuns. Nuns with notions. Nuns who kept changing the uniform. One incarnation involved a primrose shirt and a cowboy style shoestring tie. We have photographic evidence.

smacl · 01-12-2020 7:26pm

robindch wrote: »

It might depend on who's in the class too - a small number of fashionistos/as could exert social pressure on others to conform, and if these fashion-leaders are from higher-earning families, the kids of lower-earning families could end up annoyed that they had a hard time competing - which is unfortunately what happened in my own kid's class. It may not happen in every class, or even in a majority of classes, and I certainly don't have a clue if any reliable research has been done in this area which might answer the question any more accurately.

Could be the case but I haven't seen it. My girls and their friends are more into depop and Wish for their gear which is far from expensive. The stuff they're done with also often ends up back on depop. No doubt different cliques have different behaviour but the worst of what I've seen among my youngest's peers in recent years is the money being spent on fake tans, heavy makeup and outfits that remind me of an early 80s Olivia Newton John from Grease. Surprisingly uniform in its own way and a bit bleak but not particularly expensive. I seem to have escaped this with my two where they look more to the likes of Noel Fielding and the cast of Skins than Nicki Minaj or Cardi B for fashion inspiration.

Peregrinus · 02-12-2020 2:39am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Funnily enough, I noticed that the RC schools in Oz seemed to favour those skirts, always wondered about the thought processes that came up with that in a climate where 21c is considered so cold they close the outdoor swimming pools.

Schools in Oz (that have uniforms, which is most non-government schools and many government schools) typically have a summer uniform and a winter uniform, and rules about when each may be worn.

Or - and this is common in primary schools - they have not so much a uniform as a wardrobe of shorts, trousers, skirts, dresses, shirts and blouses, all lin the school colours and/or suitably badged, and pupils can pick-and-mix as they prefer, according to taste, the weather conditions and what they can find in the pile on their bedroom floor.

Bannasidhe · 02-12-2020 10:42am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Or - and this is common in primary schools - they have not so much a uniform as a wardrobe of shorts, trousers, skirts, dresses, shirts and blouses, all lin the school colours and/or suitably badged, and pupils can pick-and-mix as they prefer, according to taste, the weather conditions and what they can find in the pile on their bedroom floor.

My experience confirms this appears to be the case.

What I appreciated was, at least in the 2 Govt schools my chungfella went to, the branded stuff was available from the school, good quality and reasonably priced.
My recollection is the only 'specific' stuff was a fleece and a tie. The rest was 'school colours' but could be bought anywhere. When they told me the price I obviously looked shocked as they said I could pay the $20 in installments but couldn't have the top until it was paid off. I was shocked, I had $100 on me and was hoping that was enough.

20 years later I still have his fleece top from Brisbane, I wear it gardening, It says "Camp Hill High" which amuses me every time.
The quickly went out of shape expensive crested Irish jumpers are long gone.

My view of uniforms is that they can level the playing field a bit but like most other things associated with the education system in Ireland have often become about snobbery and gouging.
There is no justification for €50 track suit pants. Everything does not need to be branded but as usual in Ireland we had to take a simple idea, monetise it, then give someone a monopoly on supplying it.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-12-2020 1:05pm

Large "Voluntary" contributions and excessively expensive crested clothing are an effective way of keeping the riff-raff out of those non-fee paying schools which have notions about themselves

These schools all claim to espouse a christian ethos!!!

smacl · 02-12-2020 1:59pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My view of uniforms is that they can level the playing field a bit but like most other things associated with the education system in Ireland have often become about snobbery and gouging.

Snobbery and gouging aside, pushing uniformity in an increasingly multi-cultural society doesn't sit particularly well with me. If you look at the ET ethos for example you will notice it seeks to celebrate different traditions within the student group. Trying to make everyone look the same runs contrary to this.

Mark Hamill · 02-12-2020 2:11pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

He said 'removes', not dumps.
What, you want her to spend all day in it 5 days a week?
Should everyone who has to wear a uniform also wear it all day every day not changing when they get home?

Changing out of your uniform when you get home is pretty normal - some people even change out of their not a uniform work clothes when they get home. Imagine that. They must hate their suits.

I imagine many people do hate their suits (and that many of those who don't like them because of the status symbol they are, which would kind of make them the opposite function of school uniforms).

It's funny how people don't, en masse, change out of whatever they are wearing at 3 or 4pm on days they aren't working. Almost as if when you get to choose whatever you like to wear, you will pick clothes that you are comfortable wearing all day long.

Mark Hamill · 02-12-2020 2:11pm

Treppen wrote: »

touched a nerve there I have.

Btw , just to further trigger your uniqueness:pac: I wear practically the same style every day. Shirt, suit trousers, tie.
I think it's great, zero hassle involved. Change when i get home. To me it's a uniform and I like it.

You like it so much you change out of it when you get home :rolleyes:.

Mark Hamill · 02-12-2020 2:15pm

robindch wrote: »

And I take off my sailing gear when I'm done sailing :rolleyes:

Presumably because your sailing gear is wet from the sea, or sweaty from physical effort. School uniforms don't normally encounter the sea, do they?

robindch wrote: »

You can certainly spin it that way. Easier to view them as a means to avoiding certainly problems which are harder to avoid by other means.

As I have said twice, they do not avoid the problem, they simply move it out of school:

Amazing how such pressure can only ever apply to students with what clothes they wear, and not their coats or school bags or bikes (if they have one) or cars (that they are dropped to school in) or even the condition of their schools books (eg new vs second hand).
And amazing that such pressure only seems to occur whilst on schools grounds and disappears the second they leave school and no-one gives a hoot what they wear.

robindch wrote: »

If we can't teach our kids to do that then what the hell is the point in school at all

?

lazygal · 02-12-2020 2:29pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Large "Voluntary" contributions and excessively expensive crested clothing are an effective way of keeping the riff-raff out of those non-fee paying schools which have notions about themselves

These schools all claim to espouse a christian ethos!!!

My secondary school was a bit like this. In a 'nice' area but stuck with a catchment area which included some folks not quite up to scratch. So the crest was on everything from our uniform mandated coat to the PE shirts. And socks were regulation and had to be bought from the same drapery shop that had the monopoly on sales of said uniform.

None of this was to make us all equal. It was branding us as belonging to a certain school, controlling us and excluding those who didn't have access to money to buy it and-or couldn't get a second hand version because they didn't have the social capital of a connection of some sort to someone who attended who was passing outgrown garments on.

Don't get me started on the girl who got into trouble for having the wrong shade of colour on her otherwise perfectly acceptable school shoes....

Hotblack Desiato · 02-12-2020 10:11pm

Socks, jaysus.

Treppen · 04-12-2020 5:10pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Large "Voluntary" contributions and excessively expensive crested clothing are an effective way of keeping the riff-raff out of those non-fee paying schools which have notions about themselves

These schools all claim to espouse a christian ethos!!!

You see kids in deprived areas wearing jackets and trainers double the price of "crested clothing".

Voluntary contributions are now forbidden unless it's fee charging

Hotblack Desiato · 04-12-2020 7:07pm

Oh right, so because SOME kids wear very expensive ordinary clothes, that means EVERYONE can afford needlessly expensive school uniforms (on top of ordinary clothes for their kids, of course)

Uhuh. :rolleyes:

Yet another of the many completely brainless excuses used to justify our fetish for ridiculous school uniforms in this country.

smacl · 04-12-2020 9:28pm

Treppen wrote: »

Voluntary contributions are now forbidden unless it's fee charging

Rubbish. I pay them at my daughters non-fee paying secondary as I guess most folks do.

rainbow kirby · 05-12-2020 12:18am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Schools in Oz (that have uniforms, which is most non-government schools and many government schools) typically have a summer uniform and a winter uniform, and rules about when each may be worn.

Or - and this is common in primary schools - they have not so much a uniform as a wardrobe of shorts, trousers, skirts, dresses, shirts and blouses, all lin the school colours and/or suitably badged, and pupils can pick-and-mix as they prefer, according to taste, the weather conditions and what they can find in the pile on their bedroom floor.

Similar in England - the only piece of uniform required to be crested in my son's primary school in Manchester is the jumper, and at that it's a round neck sweatshirt that costs a tenner. Trousers and polo shirts from Sainsburys!

Hotblack Desiato · 02-05-2021 4:30pm

New Catholic primary school sex education programme published

A new sex education programme for Catholic primary schools which describes sex and puberty as a “gift from God” has been released.

Flourish, a relationships and sexuality education (RSE) programme, has been developed by the Irish Bishops’ Conference for junior infants to sixth class.

The resources are available for use in Catholic primary schools, which account for about 90 per cent of all national schools, but are not mandatory, say sources involved with it.

An introduction to the programme says that when discussing LGBT issues, the “Church’s teaching in relation to marriage between a man and a woman cannot be omitted”.

The programme for senior classes states that “puberty is a gift from God. We are perfectly designed by God to procreate with him”; while a lesson on safety and protection advises senior infant children to say the “Angel of God” prayer.

The new programme comes ahead of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment’s (NCCA) updated syllabus for relationships and sexuality education. This updated course will apply to all primary schools, however schools are entitled to deliver these programmes according to their ethos.

Mick Barry, a Solidarity TD, said he would question how the programme qualified as appropriate sex education.

“Religion shouldn’t have influence on relationships and sexuality education in schools,” he said.

Mr Barry said his party’s draft legislation on “objective sex education” would guarantee factual relationships and sexuality education across all schools, if enacted.

Atheist Ireland said many non-religious families would have no option but to send their children to publicly-funded national schools under the patronage of the Catholic Church delivering this programme.

“Why on earth would non-religious parents want their children taught moral and social values based on the supposed teachings of a god? There is no balancing of rights here, but the tightening of control to ensure that the Catholic Church can continue to evangelise and indoctrinate,” it said, in a statement.

However, the Irish Bishops’ Conference said all teaching in Catholic primary schools in areas relating to the church’s teaching is done in an invitational way using approaches outlined by the curriculum. It said the biological aspects of the Flourish programme were entirely in line with the NCCA curriculum. The programme will be amended, if necessary, when the council’s review of relationships and sexuality education is completed.

The Department of Education said all schools were required to have a relationships and sexuality education policy that is developed in consultation with the school community, including school management, parents, teachers and students as appropriate.

It said it was important to note that the “ethos of the school should never preclude learners from acquiring the knowledge about the issues, but ethos may influence how that content is treated”.

A document accompanying the Flourish programme states that there is no such thing as an “ethos free” approach to relationships and sexuality education since it must be rooted in a particular value system.

It says the Catholic school must consider these topics within “a moral framework that reflects the teachings of the Church”.

“The RSE programme in the Catholic school must not promote shame, but rather seek to affirm that every human being is made in the image and likeness of God and is loved by God as they are,” it states.

“The same moral obligation to respect and treat our bodies with dignity applies to people of all sexual orientation. However, the Church’s teaching in relation to marriage between a man and a woman cannot be omitted.”

School patronage

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