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School patronage

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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I take Robin's point. Nevertheless, I think what seems to have gone wrong here was calilng the girls together to address them on this point, and not the boys. This frames the issue as a girl's problem- either the girls are more prone to flout the uniform rule than the boys are, or girls flouting the uniform rules is a problem in a way that boys flouting them isn't, or a bit of both. And immediately you're on very dodgy ground there. At best, you've left yourself very open to misinterpretation; at worst, the interpretations being offered are not complete[/i\ misinterpretations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    With regards to patronage, why was the sibling rule ended so quickly.
    Surely the most humane thing to do would be to have phased it out over 8 years.

    I'm not really 100% sure why it was ended in the first place...
    Was it because students from outside the parish were getting in before catchment?
    How is that possible if catchment typically trump's the eldest child who applied was outside the catchment.

    Is this to do with putting the Auntie's or Grannies address down to get them in?

    https://twitter.com/carlobrien/status/1332654961923076099?s=20


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    It's an assertion of power by the archbishop as patron. Nothing more than that. They want to let everyone know they might let more kids in but they won't do so without calling the shots elsewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,022 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Anti-family, anti-parent. We need to take control of the schools we pay for out of the hands of unaccountable churchmen.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    All patron bodies are unaccountable. ET and irish language patron schools can have enrolment policies that work against families and children.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The Irish Times digs a bit more into the Carlow Leggings Controversy - finds that social media and lack of verification of claims is a major problem:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/school-leggings-controversy-anatomy-of-a-social-media-firestorm-1.4419309
    For many school principals who watched a social media storm envelop Carlow Presentation College over its school uniform policy, there is a trepidation that it could just as easily have been them. “There is a constant, low-level worry that something will get distorted and blows up online; WhatsApp groups are the worst,” says one school principal, dealing with a similar uniform-related controversy at the school. “Someone gets the wrong end of the stick and it spreads like wildfire.”

    Another principal who has also been in the eye of a recent controversy online agrees. “It’s such a dangerous weapon. Individuals get named or attacked before any facts are established. But you can’t get into a row on social media . . . so, you keep your head down and hope it blows over.”

    Schools are increasingly in social media’s crosshairs in rows over uniforms, discipline or treatment of pupils. Once, concerns would have been raised directly. Now, allegations spread before answers catch up. In the stampede towards instant judgment, say principals, truth, context or nuance often gets elbowed aside. In the case of Carlow Presentation College, it all started innocently.

    Due to Covid-19 regulations – which limit access to changing rooms – students there are allowed to come to school wearing their training gear on the days that they have PE. Staff at the school had, however, grown concerned at the lapses in uniform policy, which stipulates that a tracksuit only should be worn for PE. “What was being noticed by staff, myself and others, over the last month and a half or so is that on PE day when the students were coming in, particularly the girls, the uniform regulations weren’t being followed and it was becoming more of a fashion show more than anything else,” school principal Ray Murray told RTÉ.

    Together with colleagues, Murray decided to issue a reminder to classes individually last Friday. Rumours – now known to be inaccurate – began to swirl among some students later that the decision had been taken due to discomfort among male members of staff. Some were unhappy that girls, not boys, had been singled out. Murray said he checked with the relevant teachers to ensure nothing inappropriate was said. He said he was assured on multiple occasions that this was the case. “We have female deans of discipline who are mothers themselves who are talking to girls and I know there was nothing inappropriate, wrong, or uncomfortable that was said to them,” he said.

    What happened next, he says, bemused the school at first. Traffic on social media about the school began on Friday night, attracting more and more attention. Later that night, an anonymous online petition was established to highlight “sexism against female students in school by the staff and students”. All of this was based on unsubstantiated, and, as it turns out, inaccurate reports. Soon, more than 1,000 had signed.

    When the mother of a student emailed the principal on Saturday, upset over what was alleged to have been said, the dean of discipline for the class responded to the mother via the principal. “The mother rang me half an hour later to say, ‘I’m sorry for jumping the gun. I was going on what other people had told me’,” Murray said. But the initial claims had gained even more online momentum, with 3,500 signates and a plethora of inaccurate allegations.

    When some mainstream media began to run with the story on Tuesday, repeating the claim - again, one that was wrong - that the leggings were being banned because they distracted male teachers, the audience grew. Many media outlets did not wait for the school to respond before reporting the allegations. By now, in the full glare of national media, the school issued a short statement on Tuesday night. It stated that there has been no change in the school uniform policy – but it did little to counter the narrative.

    With news dominating newspaper front pages and radio shows, Murray took to the national airwaves on Wednesday morning to set the record straight on what happened from the school’s point of view. In the meantime, the original petition has reached almost 10,000 signatures, with no let-up in the original allegations. Faced with the controversy, the Department of Education has asked for a report.

    For principals watching on, Carlow is a parable for our times. Four girls’ schools in Dublin alone are dealing with smaller-scale, but similar unfounded controversies, says one principal. “The rage will die down and the story will move on, but it’s much harder for the principals and teachers who have worked so, so hard in the best interests of students,” says one principal. “It’s risky responding publicly,” says another, “We don’t have PR advisers . . . If you’re defensive, you can be made to look foolish. If you get into a row, it looks bad. You can’t win a lot of the time.”


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Why should we take the comments of the principal more seriously than the girls who were singled out by teachers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why should we take the comments of the principal more seriously than the girls who were singled out by teachers?


    The number of girls who actually reported anything was very small given how many girls were spoken to. It also seems they didn't understand what teachers being driven to distraction over the uniform issue actually means.

    The journalists who ran with this story stated they had 4 girls willing to verify their story. This is a very small number given the number of female students who were spoken to on the issue.

    Anyone who has teaching experience on here will tell you how a gang of friends can totally misread a situation and turn it into a drama.

    This isn't always the case but, in this instance, the blame seems to lie with the very poor standard of journalism.

    Deleted tweets, but no apologies seem to point in this direction.

    Most notably, Hazel Chu yet to delete her tweet which is very disappointing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The girls were separated and accused on radio by the principal of engaging in behaviour like a fashion show.
    I wasn't impressed by how he sought to minimise the legitimate concerns and didn't explain why the girls were spoken to alone.
    It seems we're not past the era of thinking the word of a man in power carries more weight than children in Ireland.
    I question the priorities of a school that's so obsessed with what is worn in the middle of a pandemic that they need to waste their time on this in the first place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    lazygal wrote: »
    The girls were separated and accused on radio by the principal of engaging in behaviour like a fashion show.
    I wasn't impressed by how he sought to minimise the legitimate concerns and didn't explain why the girls were spoken to alone.
    It seems we're not past the era of thinking the word of a man in power carries more weight than children in Ireland.
    I question the priorities of a school that's so obsessed with what is worn in the middle of a pandemic that they need to waste their time on this in the first place.

    Schools have a dress code, they continue to be applied in the vast majority of schools during this pandemic with slight, stated alterations, due to covid. Homework policies, discipline policies etc. also continue to be applied.

    The girls were spoken to as the trend of wearing leggings, and not the school tracksuit pants, was relevant to the girls.

    I'm sure if the boys were arriving to school in leggings, they also would have been spoken to.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I'm very glad my children's school doesn't have dress codes and if my daughter was treated like the girls in the school in Carlow I'd let her wear whatever she liked for the rest of the year.
    Dress codes are not important but especially not during a pandemic and especially not important enough to hold assemblies about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    lazygal wrote: »
    I'm very glad my children's school doesn't have dress codes and if my daughter was treated like the girls in the school in Carlow I'd let her wear whatever she liked for the rest of the year.
    Dress codes are not important but especially not during a pandemic and especially not important enough to hold assemblies about.

    In your opinion.

    A dress code can be very important for the disadvantaged who may not have a sufficient quantity of suitable clothes for each school day. Not to mention the pressure students might feel to keep up with their peers.

    That's why schools have dress codes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Schools have dress codes because of tradition and a desire to impose control.
    There's no evidence whatsoever that uniforms eliminate the issues that you claim.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    In your opinion.

    A dress code can be very important for the disadvantaged who may not have a sufficient quantity of suitable clothes for each school day. Not to mention the pressure students might feel to keep up with their peers.

    That's why schools have dress codes.

    That argument is blown out of the water when the cost of 'branded' uniforms is factored in - not to mention many schools have a 'can only be bought in x shop' policy.
    Many schools have 'dress codes' as you call them for branding purposes - it's their livery. It has nothing to do with helping disadvantaged students.

    Now, generally I am in favour of uniforms as I think they can be a great leveller but many schools have ridiculous uniform policies.
    My Grand-daughter has to wear an ankle length skirt - why?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    And why does it matter what type of leggings are worn for PE? Surely the exercise is the point. Not the policing of what's on people's lower halves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    As regards the cost. There are also uniform grants for those in disadvantaged areas.

    Uniforms could definitely be cheaper but they'd be cheaper than a variety of the latest gear to keep up with your better-off friends.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    As regards the cost. There are also uniform grants for those in disadvantaged areas.

    Uniforms could definitely be cheaper but they'd be cheaper than a variety of the latest gear to keep up with your better-off friends.

    Not necessarily.

    The cost of the uniform has to be met in full before schools starts (unless by some miracle your child hasn't grown) while 'ordinary' clothes can be spread across the year and sales taken advantage of. The uniform cost also has to be met at the same time as all the other back to school costs hit.
    Ní Dhubhda is hoping to avoid replacing her daughter’s school uniform this year. “Everything is crested, and has to be ordered from a specialist uniform supplier. If I did have to replace it, the skirt would be €50; her jumper is €35; plus €8 for each shirt. Jackets are around €65; tracksuit bottoms are €50; sports tops are €25.”
    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/parenting/crested-uniforms-ipads-and-amenity-fees-the-true-cost-of-free-schooling-1.3960460

    €50 for a track suit pants - what planet are these people on?

    No, there are not uniform grants for those in disadvantages areas. There is a mean-tested grant available to those in receipt of certain social welfare benefits regardless of where they live.
    The grant is €150 for children aged 4-11/ €275 aged 11- 22.

    There is little to no help for those in paid employment but on lower incomes.

    As I said, I am in favour of uniforms (my son went to both kinds of schools) but to claim it is an act of altruism by the schools to aid disadvantaged students simply isn't true in many cases - if it was there wouldn't be €50 tracksuit pants available only from one supplier.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    As regards the cost. There are also uniform grants for those in disadvantaged areas.

    Uniforms could definitely be cheaper but they'd be cheaper than a variety of the latest gear to keep up with your better-off friends.

    I often ask my classes which they'd prefer. Hands down it's uniform all the way. But then again it's a uniform school, people go with what they know. Schools who call teachers by first name think bits the best thing since sliced bread, schools who don't, don't care.
    We've relaxed uniforms a bit due to Covid but with proviso of no visible brand names... and that's the uniform policy now. Everyone knows it .

    If there's a uniform policy in play then just stick to it and move on, rather than getting out the pitchfork and Humble bragging about how forward thinking your non-uniform school is.

    Single sex schools are better,
    Mixed is better
    Uniform is better
    No uniform is better
    Birds of a feather


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    No one has to put up with a nonsensical policy in a school the state is paying for.
    Uniform policies don't make any sense. They make zero difference to teaching or learning.
    If the only option in an area is a school with rules that don't make sense it is entirely appropriate to challenge and or ignore them. And students shouldn't be singled out and forced to attend assemblies in a pandemic if stupid rules are being ignored. What a way to spread covid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    lazygal wrote: »
    No one has to put up with a nonsensical policy in a school the state is paying for.
    Uniform policies don't make any sense. They make zero difference to teaching or learning.
    If the only option in an area is a school with rules that don't make sense it is entirely appropriate to challenge and or ignore them. And students shouldn't be singled out and forced to attend assemblies in a pandemic if stupid rules are being ignored. What a way to spread covid.

    Your conflating your argument for a non-uniform policy with adherence to best Covid practice.

    Just because someone messes up and decides to call an assembly for whatever reason, doesnt mean they should abandon uniform. Conversely , you could argue if they had a clearer uniform policy in place no assembly would have happened.

    What exactly was the nature of the assembly? How many students were assembled and where?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Now, generally I am in favour of uniforms as I think they can be a great leveller but many schools have ridiculous uniform policies.
    My Grand-daughter has to wear an ankle length skirt - why?

    Maybe if they were cheap, practical, durable and didn't push gender stereo types. Being forced into any kind of skirt proved to an anathema to daughter who cycles as her main form of transport.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    smacl wrote: »
    Maybe if they were cheap, practical, durable and didn't push gender stereo types. Being forced into any kind of skirt proved to an anathema to daughter who cycles as her main form of transport.

    Cycling would be impossible in the ankle length monstrosity grand-daughter is forced to wear.
    The only possible use I can see for it is attending some bizarre Victorianesque Highland Games.

    Son went to High School in both Sydney and Brisbane where cheap, practical, non-gender stereo types uniforms were the rule. Both schools had a 'crested' fleece top which you bought from the school for $20au and a specific tie $5au, the rest of the 'uniform' could be bought anywhere. They had one written in stone dress rule - if wearing shorts (in the appropriate school colour) you had to wear matching knee high socks (this seems to be a 'thing' in Oz). Son never wore shorts....

    Pupils could chose to wear trousers or skirt - and yes, sometimes the boys wore skirts (with knee high socks) because who is going to tell a 2 mtr tall Tongan that he looks girly in a skirt. :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    In your opinion.

    A dress code can be very important for the disadvantaged who may not have a sufficient quantity of suitable clothes for each school day. Not to mention the pressure students might feel to keep up with their peers.

    That's why schools have dress codes.

    Amazing how such pressure can only ever apply to students with what clothes they wear, and not their coats or school bags or bikes (if they have one) or cars (that they are dropped to school in) or even the condition of their schools books (eg new vs second hand).
    And amazing that such pressure only seems to occur whilst on schools grounds and disappears the second they leave school and no-one gives a hoot what they wear.

    Heaven forbid schools try and teach kids how to deal with such pressure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    lazygal wrote: »
    Schools have dress codes because of tradition and a desire to impose control.
    There's no evidence whatsoever that uniforms eliminate the issues that you claim.

    The amount of times I got in trouble because I didn't want to take off my jacket in a cold classroom. But as the jacket wasn't part of uniform, they kept trying to make me :rolleyes:.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Treppen wrote: »
    I often ask my classes which they'd prefer. Hands down it's uniform all the way.

    tenor.gif?itemid=8186787

    Yeah, I'm calling BS on that. And not even because kids want to dress fancy or show off or any of that nonsense. For the simple fact that school uniforms are uncomfortable. Nobody likes wearing them. If they did, then teachers would wear them (a teachers version of them) too.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Nobody likes wearing them.
    My own daughter is fine with uniforms and I gather the majority of her friends are too. She did two years in preschool wearing one, eight years in an Educate Together school without and is now back in a secondary school which requires them. I think this gives her enough experience of wearing them and not wearing them to have an opinion worth listening to.

    We've discussed the topic a fair amount and I've left her make her own mind up about it rather than telling her that she should be shocked at it, or not, as the case may be. The main thing she likes about it is that it means she doesn't need to worry about what to wear to school - there's one uniform, a few copies of it, and that's that. No early morning angst about what to wear, no panic, no fashion-parading, clothes are virtually indestructible, and none of the, for example, "Oh god, should I be wearing my (fancy brand) trainers to school as it's all I have and I know that X is jealous or makes Y angry" nonsense which plagued the latter years in primary. Once back home, she exits her uniform almost immediately and returns once again, to life as a faddy, fashion-obsessed, normal teenage girl. She views her uniform in the same way that she views researchers wearing lab coats, police wearing their uniforms etc - a necessary, but forgivable, evil for one specific use in one specific context.

    It's also fun to discuss why her wearing her uniform is sufficiently structurally different from various religious sects requiring women to wear religious outfits that the one is acceptable while the other one isn't - quite a fine distinction, it has to be said, depending upon how one turns it.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    robindch wrote: »
    My own daughter is fine with uniforms and I gather the majority of her friends are too. She did two years in preschool wearing one, eight years in an Educate Together school without and is now back in a secondary school which requires them. I think this gives her enough experience of wearing them and not wearing them to have an opinion worth listening to.

    We've discussed the topic a fair amount and I've left her make her own mind up about it rather than telling her that she should be shocked at it, or not, as the case may be. The main thing she likes about it is that it means she doesn't need to worry about what to wear to school - there's one uniform, a few copies of it, and that's that. No early morning angst about what to wear, no panic, no fashion-parading, clothes are virtually indestructible, and none of the, for example, "Oh god, should I be wearing my (fancy brand) trainers to school as it's all I have and I know that X is jealous or makes Y angry" nonsense which plagued the latter years in primary. Once back home, she exits her uniform almost immediately and returns once again, to life as a faddy, fashion-obsessed, normal teenage girl. She views her uniform in the same way that she views researchers wearing lab coats, police wearing their uniforms etc - a necessary, but forgivable, evil for one specific use in one specific context.

    It's also fun to discuss why her wearing her uniform is sufficiently structurally different from various religious sects requiring women to wear religious outfits that the one is acceptable while the other one isn't - quite a fine distinction, it has to be said, depending upon how one turns it.

    I loved my school uniform.
    It was designed in the late 1920s and they never saw the need to change it.
    Beret, unvented blazer, gaberdine - it was wonderfully jolly hockey sticks and perfect for a school that had a certain St Trinian's outlook on life.
    It was also very practical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    robindch wrote: »
    Once back home, she exits her uniform almost immediately

    That she immediately dumps the uniform at her first available opportunity kind of supports my point that they are not really liked.
    robindch wrote: »
    and returns once again, to life as a faddy, fashion-obsessed, normal teenage girl. She views her uniform in the same way that she views researchers wearing lab coats, police wearing their uniforms etc - a necessary, but forgivable, evil for one specific use in one specific context.

    The context therefore seems only to be to move the angst and pressure associated with picking outfits to outside of school, rather than actually solve the angst and pressure.
    You can solve the early morning angst by teaching kids to sort out their outfits the night before.
    And to repeat my earlier post:
    Amazing how such pressure can only ever apply to students with what clothes they wear, and not their coats or school bags or bikes (if they have one) or cars (that they are dropped to school in) or even the condition of their schools books (eg new vs second hand).
    And amazing that such pressure only seems to occur whilst on schools grounds and disappears the second they leave school and no-one gives a hoot what they wear.

    Heaven forbid schools try and teach kids how to deal with such pressure.


    School uniforms are a schools way of admitting such problems exist, but then washing their hands of them.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    That she immediately dumps the uniform at her first available opportunity kind of supports my point that they are not really liked.

    .

    He said 'removes', not dumps.
    What, you want her to spend all day in it 5 days a week?
    Should everyone who has to wear a uniform also wear it all day every day not changing when they get home?

    Changing out of your uniform when you get home is pretty normal - some people even change out of their not a uniform work clothes when they get home. Imagine that. They must hate their suits.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robindch wrote: »
    My own daughter is fine with uniforms and I gather the majority of her friends are too. She did two years in preschool wearing one, eight years in an Educate Together school without and is now back in a secondary school which requires them. I think this gives her enough experience of wearing them and not wearing them to have an opinion worth listening to.

    Each to their own I guess. My eldest went to an ET primary and a secondary with uniforms. She despised the uniform as did all of her friends. Apart from the fact they found it ghastly, and the aforementioned cycling, the other main complaint was that it was too cold in the Winter and too warm in the summer. The morning panics were also still there as while you might not have to choose what to wear what you did have to wear might be in the wash or need ironing. My youngest is going to an ET secondary and there is no issue with what to wear. Cool in the Summer, warm in the Winter and whatever she finds in her wardrobe that meets her current preference in style. (Unless of course it too is in the wash)
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I loved my school uniform.
    It was designed in the late 1920s and they never saw the need to change it.
    Beret, unvented blazer, gaberdine - it was wonderfully jolly hockey sticks and perfect for a school that had a certain St Trinian's outlook on life.
    It was also very practical.

    To be fair, something about adding any kind of a hat improves many outfits. You possibly missed out on the ankle length tartan skirt made from fibre rejected as being unsuitable for coarse tweed on the grounds of being too itchy? :)


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