Heart rate training - strap or watch?

54and56 · 24-11-2019 6:57pm #1

Hi all,

I'm trying to manage climbing a bit better as I frequently blow up before the top and really struggle.

I have a cadence sensor connected to my bike computer which I found helped as in I found if I kept my cadence to a max of 70 in the lowest gear it would enable me to have a more consistent output and last longer on climbs.

To take this to the next level I'd like to get a HR monitor so instead of using cadence as a proxy for managing my output I can use my actual heart rate to manage my output and try to stay out of the red zone!!

What are peoples thoughts on HR Straps Vs HR Wrist/Sports Watches?

I think I'd prefer a watch as it would be more comfortable but I'm sceptical about their accuracy and lag.

Anyone got any experience of both you can share and if there's a good accurate wrist/sports watch you'd recommend I'd appreciate the info.

saccades · 24-11-2019 7:07pm

54and56 wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm trying to manage climbing a bit better as I frequently blow up before the top and really struggle.

I have a cadence sensor connected to my bike computer which I found helped as in I found if I kept my cadence to a max of 70 in the lowest gear it would enable me to have a more consistent output and last longer on climbs.

To take this to the next level I'd like to get a HR monitor so instead of using cadence as a proxy for managing my output I can use my actual heart rate to manage my output and try to stay out of the red zone!!

What are peoples thoughts on HR Straps Vs HR Wrist/Sports Watches?

I think I'd prefer a watch as it would be more comfortable but I'm sceptical about their accuracy and lag.

Anyone got any experience of both you can share and if there's a good accurate wrist/sports watch you'd recommend I'd appreciate the info.

Chest, a lot more accurate than the wrist stuff.

ED E · 24-11-2019 7:23pm

HR data is pretty useless. All of it. It drifts for wayyy too many reasons.

Ignore the HR step and start saving for a power meter instead.

54and56 · 24-11-2019 8:11pm

ED E wrote: »

HR data is pretty useless. All of it. It drifts for wayyy too many reasons.

Ignore the HR step and start saving for a power meter instead.

Think I'll see what improvements I can make with a €30 HR Strap before I splurge on a power meter and new bike computer which will take info from a power meter!

magicbastarder · 24-11-2019 8:25pm

i'm guessing your username is not a reference to the gearing you're using up hills, yeah?

eeimcaw · 24-11-2019 8:55pm

Strap alot more accurate, wahoo one is good for 50 euro. Have Garmin watch and it's about 20 beats of a difference to strap. Need watch really tight for it to work okish

OleRodrigo · 24-11-2019 9:07pm

A good quality HR strap is very effective.

+1 on the Wahoo tickr.

54and56 · 24-11-2019 10:31pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm guessing your username is not a reference to the gearing you're using up hills, yeah?

No, but that's a good spot.

FYI I'm a life long Liverpool FC fan. The Avatar is a celebration of winning the European Cup 6 times and the 54and56 name comes from the fact that in both the 2005 Istanbul 3-0 Final comeback Vs Milan and the 2019 Anfield semi final 3-0 comeback Vs Barcelona Liverpool scored goals in the 54th and 56th minutes to really take the wind out of the opponent and in each case it generated momentum for Liverpool which the opponents couldn't recover from.

As a fat old git I ride a Shimano FC-R563 crankset with Triple Chainrings 50x39X30T paired with Shimano Tiagra 4600 10 Speed Road Cassette 12-28T.

I'm a long way from a power meter being a priority

saccades · 24-11-2019 11:47pm

ED E wrote: »

HR data is pretty useless. All of it. It drifts for wayyy too many reasons.

Ignore the HR step and start saving for a power meter instead.

Disagree, its an ace cheap way to keep roughly in the right zone when training or competing, maybe more geared up to endurance events but not useless.

JimmiesRustled · 24-11-2019 11:54pm

ED E wrote: »

HR data is pretty useless. All of it. It drifts for wayyy too many reasons.

Ignore the HR step and start saving for a power meter instead.

Resting heart rate has been a pretty decent indicator of tiredness and oncoming illness for me at least. I measure it daily and if I'm up about 7 BPM I know to give the days workout a miss or sub in an easy recovery ride.

magicbastarder · 25-11-2019 12:10am

what sort of climbs are you doing? there are videos online about how to climb better, which you've probably already watched, be they about learning to climb more out of the saddle (or more in the saddle, depending on your preferred technique)

if you do find yourself climbing in your granny gear and running out of puff, you could investigate changing the gearing too; a new cassette could be cheaper than a HRM.

Cionn · 25-11-2019 9:08am

Go with a strap, I have both and use a wrist based hr watch to send the data to my head unit. Out of a 100km spin yesterday I used the wrist unit, it provided data for 20km only and shutdown/stopped broadcasting. Strap is more reliable, consistent IMHO

54and56 · 25-11-2019 9:33am

magicbastarder wrote: »

what sort of climbs are you doing?

A challenging spin would be a the Laragh - Sally Gap loop below.

I can grind out the long drags but struggle hard with the steeper inclines and often blow up early.

magicbastarder wrote: »

there are videos online about how to climb better, which you've probably already watched, be they about learning to climb more out of the saddle (or more in the saddle, depending on your preferred technique)

Other than for very short bursts once I get in the granny ring I tend to stay in the saddle and try to find a steady cadence I can stick with to get the climb done.

I do spin classes 2-3 times a week and the weird thing is on a spin bike I prefer standing climbs but on the road I struggle to spend any real time standing. I've had a professional bike fit etc so it shouldn't be that I'm not well set up on the road bike.

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you do find yourself climbing in your granny gear and running out of puff, you could investigate changing the gearing too; a new cassette could be cheaper than a HRM.

Before I go messing with the gearing I think I'll invest in a HR Strap and see if that'll help me control my pace when climbing. Apart from that objective I'd also like to gather HRM data so that over time I can see how my HR is averaging, what the peaks are etc.

Macy0161 · 25-11-2019 10:34am

There's still a place for HR even in training with power.

In the summer I got a Garmin 245 find the HR. Day to Day it's fine, and where I have power anyway I tend to just use the watch. Where I don't, I use a strap just to be sure on long spins, but commutes and the like the watch is fine.

Optical heart rate monitors are getting better all the time.

Whatever about training, I'm finding it great for tracking resting heart rate. Although when it spikes is normally when I'm feeling under the weather or felt I've done too much, but nice to have the data to force myself to rest.

I'm using various Garmin Strap HRM I've got over the years, strap wise. My original one I got with a 310 is still going, I've had HRM-Run fail on me, but HRM tri still going strong too. Just to cover myself, I'd look for one that's ant+ and bluetooth if buying as a standalone.

LollipopJimmy · 25-11-2019 10:42am

I use a Garmin strap but also have a Samsung Gear S3, the HR data seems fairly consistent across the two

CramCycle · 25-11-2019 1:41pm

I would also try using a lower gear and train yourself to a higher cadence, in my opinion. You have a triple so use it and work on building cadence. HR is a great metric to use, despite what is said above, it can give you nice consistency in a climb, letting you know if you have a bit more to give.

Cionn · 25-11-2019 1:59pm

FWIW, I am not sophisticated enough in my training means to need /use a power meter. I use Heart Rate to identify where I am fitness wise. After a spin I look at the percentage of the spin in the different HR zones to gauge where I am , and I use resting heart rate to assess where I am overall.

Having said that, my focus this winter will be cadence as the spins are shorter and I reckon I have work to do in relation to that. I will be including higher cadence work on both my commute and my weekend spins.

54and56 · 25-11-2019 5:40pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I would also try using a lower gear and train yourself to a higher cadence, in my opinion. You have a triple so use it and work on building cadence. HR is a great metric to use, despite what is said above, it can give you nice consistency in a climb, letting you know if you have a bit more to give.

I believe my granny gearing is fairly good and I do lean towards higher cadence rather than grinding out slow reps at a higher gear. I had a knee operation in the SSC a few years ago and one of the pieces of advice the surgeon gave me at the time was to favour higher cadence over power purely from a knee protection perspective not performance.

I've ordered this Bluetooth 4.0 and ANT+ Wireless Heart Rate Monitor which has excellent reviews and at £25 seems good value.

I'll wear it for a few spins and then see if I can identify where the I can push the climbing cadence without putting the HR into the red zone!!

G1032 · 25-11-2019 6:50pm

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

Resting heart rate has been a pretty decent indicator of tiredness and oncoming illness for me at least. I measure it daily and if I'm up about 7 BPM I know to give the days workout a miss or sub in an easy recovery ride.

You should check out HRV...

CramCycle · 25-11-2019 6:59pm

54and56 wrote: »

I believe my granny gearing is fairly good and I do lean towards higher cadence rather than grinding out slow reps at a higher gear. I had a knee operation in the SSC a few years ago and one of the pieces of advice the surgeon gave me at the time was to favour higher cadence over power purely from a knee protection perspective not performance.

I just past comment on this as you mention a max cadence of 70, which would be my minimum climbing, preferably I would be up at 100 or higher. Everyone is different but 70 to me isn't far off grinding it out.

I've ordered this Bluetooth 4.0 and ANT+ Wireless Heart Rate Monitor which has excellent reviews and at £25 seems good value.

Looks decent enough.

I'll wear it for a few spins and then see if I can identify where the I can push the climbing cadence without putting the HR into the red zone!!

Get the cadence up on the flats first, it will take time to adjust. Once you find what you can spin comfortably, try and keep that there, go up and down the gears to not blow up.

c.p.w.g.w · 25-11-2019 7:19pm

G1032 wrote: »

You should check out HRV...

Not many devices do that measurement, I thought whoop had a monopoly

G1032 · 25-11-2019 10:11pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Not many devices do that measurement, I thought whoop had a monopoly

Your Wahoo monitor will measure that with the Elite HRV app. App is free on the mobile (you can pay a small one off fee, I think a fiver, to upload all readings to TP or Strava etc) but you need to pay to view on Desktop..

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.elitehrv.app

ED E · 25-11-2019 10:17pm

saccades wrote: »

Disagree, its an ace cheap way to keep roughly in the right zone when training or competing, maybe more geared up to endurance events but not useless.

Except it's not.

Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?

Thats not even counting for the fact that a steady state effort doesn't give a steady HR. I'm not a racer, just leisure. I wear a Tickr linked to the BOLT but have an interest in useable numbers and unfortunately HR just isn't.

magicbastarder · 25-11-2019 11:13pm

ED E wrote: »

You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer.

i read that as 'plus eight to minus ten BPM' and then copped.

Ceepo · 26-11-2019 12:15am

ED E wrote: »

Except it's not.

Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?

Thats not even counting for the fact that a steady state effort doesn't give a steady HR. I'm not a racer, just leisure. I wear a Tickr linked to the BOLT but have an interest in useable numbers and unfortunately HR just isn't.

Imagine all the Coaches and endurance cyclist and athletes that used HR getting it wrong for so many years.

CramCycle · 26-11-2019 1:41am

ED E wrote: »

Except it's not.

Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?

Thats not even counting for the fact that a steady state effort doesn't give a steady HR. I'm not a racer, just leisure. I wear a Tickr linked to the BOLT but have an interest in useable numbers and unfortunately HR just isn't.

I use it ll the time and it does the job, I know where the line is and it helps me not to cross it. Some days the line will be slightly higher or lower, but that is not much different to power in that regard.

Is it a good as raw power, no. Is it usable and a helpful training or race tool, yes. if it wasn't, people wouldn't use it, you still see pros with HR straps for monitoring.

Macy0161 · 26-11-2019 10:22am

ED E wrote: »

Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?

Is that not indicative of extra work though? Weight of the jacket, body working harder to cool?

I would have the biggest issue with heart rate is people using the 220 - age formula to establish their zones, rather than trying to establish it through a test (or a race).

Power is better, but expensive (especially for multiple bikes), and is not without it's own inconsistencies if you're using multiple metres, potentially at the limits of the defined accuracy range. Depending on how strong (or in my case weak) you are, that could put you in different zones too.

54and56 · 26-11-2019 10:31am

ED E wrote: »

Except it's not.

Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?

Thats not even counting for the fact that a steady state effort doesn't give a steady HR. I'm not a racer, just leisure. I wear a Tickr linked to the BOLT but have an interest in useable numbers and unfortunately HR just isn't.

My primary objective is to avoid blowing up when climbing, particularly on steeper inclines. Staying out of the HR red zone is therefore the most important objective for me and a HR Strap will, once I have identified my own personal red zone, help me manage gearing and cadence to avoid blowing up.

A power meter is no doubt more accurate at measuring power than a HR Strap is at measuring power but a power meter won't allow me to have an early warning system that my BPM are about to enter the red zone.

If I can manage HR to stay below the red zone I'll improve my ability to climb in a consistent manner without blowing up. That's what I'm trying to achieve.

54and56 · 26-11-2019 10:39am

CramCycle wrote: »

I just past comment on this as you mention a max cadence of 70, which would be my minimum climbing, preferably I would be up at 100 or higher. Everyone is different but 70 to me isn't far off grinding it out.

Fair comment. I know that on the steepest inclines in my granny gear my cadence can be as low as 60 but most of the time climbing especially long drags a cadence of +/- 85 seems to be my personal comfort zone. I can crack on with a good cardio rate (based solely on sweating and my rate of breathing!!) fairly comfortably without blowing up. Hopefully a HR Strap will allow me to gather some actual data, understand what my sustainable HR limits are and become more efficient at maintaining an optimum level of performance when climbing.

On the flat I'm comfortable with a cadence of +/- 105 and flat out I can sustain 120 for short periods but that seems to be the limit of my cadence ability

CramCycle wrote: »

Get the cadence up on the flats first, it will take time to adjust. Once you find what you can spin comfortably, try and keep that there, go up and down the gears to not blow up.

Sound advice, thanks.

OleRodrigo · 26-11-2019 11:32am

Its well worth learning how to use HR properly.
Even perceived effort without a monitor is a useful metric in increasing fitness.

niallo32 · 26-11-2019 11:53am

My strap is way more accurate than the wrist watch.

I found HR training very useful until I got a Power meter.

Heart rate training - strap or watch?

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