Heart rate training - strap or watch?

54and56

Hi all,

I'm trying to manage climbing a bit better as I frequently blow up before the top and really struggle.

I have a cadence sensor connected to my bike computer which I found helped as in I found if I kept my cadence to a max of 70 in the lowest gear it would enable me to have a more consistent output and last longer on climbs.

To take this to the next level I'd like to get a HR monitor so instead of using cadence as a proxy for managing my output I can use my actual heart rate to manage my output and try to stay out of the red zone!!

What are peoples thoughts on HR Straps Vs HR Wrist/Sports Watches?

I think I'd prefer a watch as it would be more comfortable but I'm sceptical about their accuracy and lag.

Anyone got any experience of both you can share and if there's a good accurate wrist/sports watch you'd recommend I'd appreciate the info.

saccades

54and56 wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm trying to manage climbing a bit better as I frequently blow up before the top and really struggle.

I have a cadence sensor connected to my bike computer which I found helped as in I found if I kept my cadence to a max of 70 in the lowest gear it would enable me to have a more consistent output and last longer on climbs.

To take this to the next level I'd like to get a HR monitor so instead of using cadence as a proxy for managing my output I can use my actual heart rate to manage my output and try to stay out of the red zone!!

What are peoples thoughts on HR Straps Vs HR Wrist/Sports Watches?

I think I'd prefer a watch as it would be more comfortable but I'm sceptical about their accuracy and lag.

Anyone got any experience of both you can share and if there's a good accurate wrist/sports watch you'd recommend I'd appreciate the info.

Chest, a lot more accurate than the wrist stuff.

ED E

HR data is pretty useless. All of it. It drifts for wayyy too many reasons.

Ignore the HR step and start saving for a power meter instead.

54and56

ED E wrote: »

HR data is pretty useless. All of it. It drifts for wayyy too many reasons.

Ignore the HR step and start saving for a power meter instead.

Think I'll see what improvements I can make with a €30 HR Strap before I splurge on a power meter and new bike computer which will take info from a power meter!

magicbastarder

i'm guessing your username is not a reference to the gearing you're using up hills, yeah?

eeimcaw

Strap alot more accurate, wahoo one is good for 50 euro. Have Garmin watch and it's about 20 beats of a difference to strap. Need watch really tight for it to work okish

OleRodrigo

A good quality HR strap is very effective.

+1 on the Wahoo tickr.

54and56

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm guessing your username is not a reference to the gearing you're using up hills, yeah?

No, but that's a good spot.

FYI I'm a life long Liverpool FC fan. The Avatar is a celebration of winning the European Cup 6 times and the 54and56 name comes from the fact that in both the 2005 Istanbul 3-0 Final comeback Vs Milan and the 2019 Anfield semi final 3-0 comeback Vs Barcelona Liverpool scored goals in the 54th and 56th minutes to really take the wind out of the opponent and in each case it generated momentum for Liverpool which the opponents couldn't recover from.

As a fat old git I ride a Shimano FC-R563 crankset with Triple Chainrings 50x39X30T paired with Shimano Tiagra 4600 10 Speed Road Cassette 12-28T.

I'm a long way from a power meter being a priority

saccades

ED E wrote: »

HR data is pretty useless. All of it. It drifts for wayyy too many reasons.

Ignore the HR step and start saving for a power meter instead.

Disagree, its an ace cheap way to keep roughly in the right zone when training or competing, maybe more geared up to endurance events but not useless.

JimmiesRustled

ED E wrote: »

HR data is pretty useless. All of it. It drifts for wayyy too many reasons.

Ignore the HR step and start saving for a power meter instead.

Resting heart rate has been a pretty decent indicator of tiredness and oncoming illness for me at least. I measure it daily and if I'm up about 7 BPM I know to give the days workout a miss or sub in an easy recovery ride.

magicbastarder

what sort of climbs are you doing? there are videos online about how to climb better, which you've probably already watched, be they about learning to climb more out of the saddle (or more in the saddle, depending on your preferred technique)

if you do find yourself climbing in your granny gear and running out of puff, you could investigate changing the gearing too; a new cassette could be cheaper than a HRM.

Cionn

Go with a strap, I have both and use a wrist based hr watch to send the data to my head unit. Out of a 100km spin yesterday I used the wrist unit, it provided data for 20km only and shutdown/stopped broadcasting. Strap is more reliable, consistent IMHO

54and56

magicbastarder wrote: »

what sort of climbs are you doing?

A challenging spin would be a the Laragh - Sally Gap loop below.

I can grind out the long drags but struggle hard with the steeper inclines and often blow up early.

magicbastarder wrote: »

there are videos online about how to climb better, which you've probably already watched, be they about learning to climb more out of the saddle (or more in the saddle, depending on your preferred technique)

Other than for very short bursts once I get in the granny ring I tend to stay in the saddle and try to find a steady cadence I can stick with to get the climb done.

I do spin classes 2-3 times a week and the weird thing is on a spin bike I prefer standing climbs but on the road I struggle to spend any real time standing. I've had a professional bike fit etc so it shouldn't be that I'm not well set up on the road bike.

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you do find yourself climbing in your granny gear and running out of puff, you could investigate changing the gearing too; a new cassette could be cheaper than a HRM.

Before I go messing with the gearing I think I'll invest in a HR Strap and see if that'll help me control my pace when climbing. Apart from that objective I'd also like to gather HRM data so that over time I can see how my HR is averaging, what the peaks are etc.

Macy0161

There's still a place for HR even in training with power.

In the summer I got a Garmin 245 find the HR. Day to Day it's fine, and where I have power anyway I tend to just use the watch. Where I don't, I use a strap just to be sure on long spins, but commutes and the like the watch is fine.

Optical heart rate monitors are getting better all the time.

Whatever about training, I'm finding it great for tracking resting heart rate. Although when it spikes is normally when I'm feeling under the weather or felt I've done too much, but nice to have the data to force myself to rest.

I'm using various Garmin Strap HRM I've got over the years, strap wise. My original one I got with a 310 is still going, I've had HRM-Run fail on me, but HRM tri still going strong too. Just to cover myself, I'd look for one that's ant+ and bluetooth if buying as a standalone.

LollipopJimmy

I use a Garmin strap but also have a Samsung Gear S3, the HR data seems fairly consistent across the two

CramCycle

I would also try using a lower gear and train yourself to a higher cadence, in my opinion. You have a triple so use it and work on building cadence. HR is a great metric to use, despite what is said above, it can give you nice consistency in a climb, letting you know if you have a bit more to give.

Cionn

FWIW, I am not sophisticated enough in my training means to need /use a power meter. I use Heart Rate to identify where I am fitness wise. After a spin I look at the percentage of the spin in the different HR zones to gauge where I am , and I use resting heart rate to assess where I am overall.

Having said that, my focus this winter will be cadence as the spins are shorter and I reckon I have work to do in relation to that. I will be including higher cadence work on both my commute and my weekend spins.

54and56

CramCycle wrote: »

I would also try using a lower gear and train yourself to a higher cadence, in my opinion. You have a triple so use it and work on building cadence. HR is a great metric to use, despite what is said above, it can give you nice consistency in a climb, letting you know if you have a bit more to give.

I believe my granny gearing is fairly good and I do lean towards higher cadence rather than grinding out slow reps at a higher gear. I had a knee operation in the SSC a few years ago and one of the pieces of advice the surgeon gave me at the time was to favour higher cadence over power purely from a knee protection perspective not performance.

I've ordered this Bluetooth 4.0 and ANT+ Wireless Heart Rate Monitor which has excellent reviews and at £25 seems good value.

I'll wear it for a few spins and then see if I can identify where the I can push the climbing cadence without putting the HR into the red zone!!

G1032

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

Resting heart rate has been a pretty decent indicator of tiredness and oncoming illness for me at least. I measure it daily and if I'm up about 7 BPM I know to give the days workout a miss or sub in an easy recovery ride.

You should check out HRV...

CramCycle

54and56 wrote: »

I believe my granny gearing is fairly good and I do lean towards higher cadence rather than grinding out slow reps at a higher gear. I had a knee operation in the SSC a few years ago and one of the pieces of advice the surgeon gave me at the time was to favour higher cadence over power purely from a knee protection perspective not performance.

I just past comment on this as you mention a max cadence of 70, which would be my minimum climbing, preferably I would be up at 100 or higher. Everyone is different but 70 to me isn't far off grinding it out.

I've ordered this Bluetooth 4.0 and ANT+ Wireless Heart Rate Monitor which has excellent reviews and at £25 seems good value.

Looks decent enough.

I'll wear it for a few spins and then see if I can identify where the I can push the climbing cadence without putting the HR into the red zone!!

Get the cadence up on the flats first, it will take time to adjust. Once you find what you can spin comfortably, try and keep that there, go up and down the gears to not blow up.

c.p.w.g.w

G1032 wrote: »

You should check out HRV...

Not many devices do that measurement, I thought whoop had a monopoly

G1032

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Not many devices do that measurement, I thought whoop had a monopoly

Your Wahoo monitor will measure that with the Elite HRV app. App is free on the mobile (you can pay a small one off fee, I think a fiver, to upload all readings to TP or Strava etc) but you need to pay to view on Desktop..

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.elitehrv.app

ED E

saccades wrote: »

Disagree, its an ace cheap way to keep roughly in the right zone when training or competing, maybe more geared up to endurance events but not useless.

Except it's not.


Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?


Thats not even counting for the fact that a steady state effort doesn't give a steady HR. I'm not a racer, just leisure. I wear a Tickr linked to the BOLT but have an interest in useable numbers and unfortunately HR just isn't.

magicbastarder

ED E wrote: »

You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer.

i read that as 'plus eight to minus ten BPM' and then copped.

Ceepo

ED E wrote: »

Except it's not.


Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?


Thats not even counting for the fact that a steady state effort doesn't give a steady HR. I'm not a racer, just leisure. I wear a Tickr linked to the BOLT but have an interest in useable numbers and unfortunately HR just isn't.

Imagine all the Coaches and endurance cyclist and athletes that used HR getting it wrong for so many years.

CramCycle

ED E wrote: »

Except it's not.


Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?


Thats not even counting for the fact that a steady state effort doesn't give a steady HR. I'm not a racer, just leisure. I wear a Tickr linked to the BOLT but have an interest in useable numbers and unfortunately HR just isn't.

I use it ll the time and it does the job, I know where the line is and it helps me not to cross it. Some days the line will be slightly higher or lower, but that is not much different to power in that regard.

Is it a good as raw power, no. Is it usable and a helpful training or race tool, yes. if it wasn't, people wouldn't use it, you still see pros with HR straps for monitoring.

Macy0161

ED E wrote: »

Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?

Is that not indicative of extra work though? Weight of the jacket, body working harder to cool?

I would have the biggest issue with heart rate is people using the 220 - age formula to establish their zones, rather than trying to establish it through a test (or a race).

Power is better, but expensive (especially for multiple bikes), and is not without it's own inconsistencies if you're using multiple metres, potentially at the limits of the defined accuracy range. Depending on how strong (or in my case weak) you are, that could put you in different zones too.

54and56

ED E wrote: »

Except it's not.


Pick a hill. Climb it 8 times. Each time alternate between just jersey and jersey + jacket. Check the data. You'll see +8-10BPM when wearing an extra layer. Thats a basically the width of a zone. How do you practically work with that, change your zones at the start of each ride depending on what you wear?


Thats not even counting for the fact that a steady state effort doesn't give a steady HR. I'm not a racer, just leisure. I wear a Tickr linked to the BOLT but have an interest in useable numbers and unfortunately HR just isn't.

My primary objective is to avoid blowing up when climbing, particularly on steeper inclines. Staying out of the HR red zone is therefore the most important objective for me and a HR Strap will, once I have identified my own personal red zone, help me manage gearing and cadence to avoid blowing up.

A power meter is no doubt more accurate at measuring power than a HR Strap is at measuring power but a power meter won't allow me to have an early warning system that my BPM are about to enter the red zone.

If I can manage HR to stay below the red zone I'll improve my ability to climb in a consistent manner without blowing up. That's what I'm trying to achieve.

54and56

CramCycle wrote: »

I just past comment on this as you mention a max cadence of 70, which would be my minimum climbing, preferably I would be up at 100 or higher. Everyone is different but 70 to me isn't far off grinding it out.

Fair comment. I know that on the steepest inclines in my granny gear my cadence can be as low as 60 but most of the time climbing especially long drags a cadence of +/- 85 seems to be my personal comfort zone. I can crack on with a good cardio rate (based solely on sweating and my rate of breathing!!) fairly comfortably without blowing up. Hopefully a HR Strap will allow me to gather some actual data, understand what my sustainable HR limits are and become more efficient at maintaining an optimum level of performance when climbing.

On the flat I'm comfortable with a cadence of +/- 105 and flat out I can sustain 120 for short periods but that seems to be the limit of my cadence ability

CramCycle wrote: »

Get the cadence up on the flats first, it will take time to adjust. Once you find what you can spin comfortably, try and keep that there, go up and down the gears to not blow up.

Sound advice, thanks.

OleRodrigo

Its well worth learning how to use HR properly.
Even perceived effort without a monitor is a useful metric in increasing fitness.

niallo32

My strap is way more accurate than the wrist watch.

I found HR training very useful until I got a Power meter.

Seve OB

saccades wrote: »

Chest, a lot more accurate than the wrist stuff.

I've a Garmin Premium chest strap.

I've also a Garmin Vivoactice 3 watch.

I've tested the Vivoactive side by side against my chest strap paired with my Forerunner & Edge.

Result............ feck all difference.



Edit, re people who are finding differences and saying the chest strap is much better, well could it be they are using cheaper watches?

Cionn

I have the vivioactive 3 watch too. but it stopped broadcasting the HR to my head unit. for cycling (this forum) I think the chest strap is better.

I also find HR very helpful, I am able to assess my percentage of time in a zone vrs the comparable spins 8/12/18 months ago and see where I am. It may not be 100% scientifically robust but its a good help for me.

I plan to use HR and Cadance over the winter to help me along, I am already trying to introduce high cadance intervals on my daily commute to see how that helps my fitness.

Seve OB

Cionn wrote: »

I have the vivioactive 3 watch too. but it stopped broadcasting the HR to my head unit. for cycling (this forum) I think the chest strap is better.

I also find HR very helpful, I am able to assess my percentage of time in a zone vrs the comparable spins 8/12/18 months ago and see where I am. It may not be 100% scientifically robust but its a good help for me.

I plan to use HR and Cadance over the winter to help me along, I am already trying to introduce high cadance intervals on my daily commute to see how that helps my fitness.

do you know what, now I think about it, if you want to keep an eye on your HR, having it displayed on the Edge (and broadcast head unit(will have to check that out)),then the chest strap would be better.

my point was simply that they both record very similar readings

CramCycle

There are issues with most wrist watches (in the way they measure). Enough to make a difference? for most people, no. For those who take it seriously or want to keep an accurate track while in the middle of exercising, it will.

Macy0161

It can be wrist position on the bars too for cycling, and skin tone can effect optical heart rate. Having said that, the latest iteration of of Garmin watches seem to be a step up and pretty accurate, as deemed by the likes of DC Rainmaker.

54and56

CramCycle wrote: »

There are issues with most wrist watches (in the way they measure). Enough to make a difference? for most people, no. For those who take it seriously or want to keep an accurate track while in the middle of exercising, it will.

The three things which convinced me to go with a strap rather than a watch/wrist monitor, which I'd likely find more convenient to use/wear, were:-

1. The strap is located close to the heart and measures the electrical pulses of your heart beats whereas wrist based devices use "photoplethysmography" (the process of using light to measure blood flow) as a proxy to determine BPM.

2. Not sure of the veracity of these claims but I read a number of times that whereas straps deliver real time readings watch/wrist monitor readings can have a lag ranging form 1-2 seconds to 20 seconds. Maybe that's because the wrist monitors have to interpret the measured blood flow or there are gaps in the blood flow data if the sensor isn't confident of the readings it's getting or whatever but for me a 20 second gap could be too late, I could already be in the red zone before I get the reading!!

3. Decent HR straps are inexpensive €30 - €50 whereas cheap wrist monitors tend to have unreliable or slow readings and decent / reliable wrist monitors tend to be much more expensive.

Time will tell if I've made the right decision.

saccades

Seve OB wrote: »

I've a Garmin Premium chest strap.

I've also a Garmin Vivoactice 3 watch.

I've tested the Vivoactive side by side against my chest strap paired with my Forerunner & Edge.

Result............ feck all difference.



Edit, re people who are finding differences and saying the chest strap is much better, well could it be they are using cheaper watches?

Possibly, but even garmin have a disclaimer on their desktop version about accuracy of wrist data, so i suspect that the majority of people get more accurate results from a chest strap.

54and56

G1032 wrote: »

You should check out HRV...

So it turns out the cheap/generic heart rate strap I linked to earlier not only works but also produces a consistent enough signal for HRV measurement.

I know there's a HRV option on the Garmin Connect app or via a Connect IQ app you can install for when I'm out on the road and that the strap will connect to the Garmin Edge Explorer I have on the bike (cadence already connected to it) but as I didn't get out on the bike this weekend for various reasons I just tried the strap out via the Elite HRV app on my phone during a 45 minute spin class and here's the readings:-



I'm early 50's, about 15kg heavier than I should be and my resting HR ranges between 66-68 but I've no idea how to interpret the HRV readings.

Time to collect a good sample over a few weeks of spin classes and actual longer spins and read up so I do understand how to read and use HRV to improve how I manage my training.

G1032

54and56 wrote: »

So it turns out the cheap/generic heart rate strap I linked to earlier not only works but also produces a consistent enough signal for HRV measurement.

I know there's a HRV option on the Garmin Connect app or via a Connect IQ app you can install for when I'm out on the road and that the strap will connect to the Garmin Edge Explorer I have on the bike (cadence already connected to it) but as I didn't get out on the bike this weekend for various reasons I just tried the strap out via the Elite HRV app on my phone during a 45 minute spin class and here's the readings:-

I'm early 50's, about 15kg heavier than I should be and my resting HR ranges between 66-68 but I've no idea how to interpret the HRV readings.

Time to collect a good sample over a few weeks of spin classes and actual longer spins and read up so I do understand how to read and use HRV to improve how I manage my training.

I'm not sure HRV is something to be measured during exercise. It's more something you need to check in the morning after you get up before the stresses of the day begin to take hold! Some even recommend you take it over the course of the night.
There are loads of articles and videos explaining it and how to interpret it.

Edit:
GCN video here
https://youtu.be/XzQJzDzXBG4

Elite HRV also send links to very informative articles via email

straighttohell

100% go for a chest strap. They can be cheap & accurate.....

siochain

G1032 wrote: »

You should check out HRV...

+1
Whoop are very accurate for HR reading, I've compared against Garmin & Kicker chest straps and they come in all the same. The HRV readings and stuff in whoop is educational and help with training smarter.

Taxuser1

54and56 wrote: »

A challenging spin would be a the Laragh - Sally Gap loop below.

I can grind out the long drags but struggle hard with the steeper inclines and often blow up early.





Other than for very short bursts once I get in the granny ring I tend to stay in the saddle and try to find a steady cadence I can stick with to get the climb done.

I do spin classes 2-3 times a week and the weird thing is on a spin bike I prefer standing climbs but on the road I struggle to spend any real time standing. I've had a professional bike fit etc so it shouldn't be that I'm not well set up on the road bike.



Before I go messing with the gearing I think I'll invest in a HR Strap and see if that'll help me control my pace when climbing. Apart from that objective I'd also like to gather HRM data so that over time I can see how my HR is averaging, what the peaks are etc.

seems to me you've nailed the problem ahead of any heart strap - you're killing yourself on the steep bits and not recovering for the remainder. I wonder do you cycle with others when this happens? Possibly lighter lads will hit these steep bits faster and with less strain and you're struggling to match them which puts you anaerobic and from which you're then struggling to get back to threshold

i've heart and power and both have their place but nothing wrong with perceived effort too and past form. if you know the climb and you know the steep pinch points take it into account in your spin and leave the other lads go ahead, ride your own pace. power tells you the exact average number, heart will rocket if you go over it but it seems to me you know exactly what the problem is.

Taxuser1

and +1 for Wahoo Tickr over Garmin 100 times out of 100 having tried and tested many. also pay for any HRV app when you get a heart strap. Some days are better than others to train on a bike, and HRV tells you that in the night and morning before any spin. I use Elite HRV which syncs with training peaks and other apps.

dahat

Taxuser1 wrote: »

and +1 for Wahoo Tickr over Garmin 100 times out of 100 having tried and tested many. also pay for any HRV app when you get a heart strap. Some days are better than others to train on a bike, and HRV tells you that in the night and morning before any spin. I use Elite HRV which syncs with training peaks and other apps.

How can I set myself up for HRV?

Its an interesting metric I'd like to explore. I currently use a Garmin strap with a Wahoo bolt.

G1032

dahat wrote: »

How can I set myself up for HRV?

Its an interesting metric I'd like to explore. I currently use a Garmin strap with a Wahoo bolt.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.elitehrv.app&hl=en

You'll check your HRV each morning. Initial readings will set your baseline.
Follow the same routine before and during check each day, down to sitting in the same position.

There is a mountain of info out there about it. It's fascinating really when you start do dig into it. Elite HRV will send you plenty info via email after you set up

Here's an article I came across the last day. Worth a read too.
https://hrvcourse.com/the-8-biggest-mistakes-made-when-measuring-hrv/

You can link the Elite HRV app with Training Peaks so the daily reading will be exported to TP. TP plots the data on graphs then for you.

GCN have a good video up on YouTube about it too.

Macy0161

Anyone used the Stress Level on the recent Garmin watches and compared it to the likes of the Apps? I googled HRV and Garmin, and got pointed towards the stress level. Hadn't realised it was along the same lines of HRV until I searched last night.

straighttohell

you're gone well into the red there, with 170 plus. Ten minutes of that and about 30 minutes later you just want to collapse into a ditch and for me I wouldnt feel right till the following day. Do your threshold calc and try and not go beyond that for more than a minute or so.

54and56

straighttohell wrote: »

you're gone well into the red there, with 170 plus. Ten minutes of that and about 30 minutes later you just want to collapse into a ditch and for me I wouldnt feel right till the following day. Do your threshold calc and try and not go beyond that for more than a minute or so.

The HR readings do have a few spikes of up to 170 alright but it's very much a brief (30 second max) occurrence. I've been using the HR strap for a few weeks now and I find it very useful to manage my training. I can tip along happily at anything up to 140 BPM but under stress (always climbing) I've noticed that I scan sustain 150 BPM or even 155 BPM for a few minutes but if I don't get it back into the 140's I'll blow up fairly quickly.

As a complete aside I take Hypertension (high blood pressure) medication which might suppress my max HR level relative to the norm for my age etc.

54and56

Taxuser1 wrote: »

seems to me you've nailed the problem ahead of any heart strap - you're killing yourself on the steep bits and not recovering for the remainder. I wonder do you cycle with others when this happens? Possibly lighter lads will hit these steep bits faster and with less strain and you're struggling to match them which puts you anaerobic and from which you're then struggling to get back to threshold

i've heart and power and both have their place but nothing wrong with perceived effort too and past form. if you know the climb and you know the steep pinch points take it into account in your spin and leave the other lads go ahead, ride your own pace. power tells you the exact average number, heart will rocket if you go over it but it seems to me you know exactly what the problem is.

Thanks Taxuser1, you've hit the nail on the head. I more or less always cycle with a group and of course the stubborn/idiot part of me never wants to be dropped on climbs

I need to think and act a lot smarter along the lines you suggest.