An Irish identity

#15 · 30-11-2009 12:45am #1

I really don't know if this is the correct forum for this thread. I have never posted in humanities before.

Recently, an incident occurred that got me thinking about my identity.

I was in Berlin recently, and I was at a party with some friends.
I got talking to a group there, and upon hearing me speak English, one of the girls asked if I was British. My immediate reaction was one of slight horror, and I emphatically declared that I was Irish, not British.

The poor girl seemed a bit taken aback, and I think she thought that she had seriously insulted me.

Upon reflection, I was quite surprised by my reaction to her question, as I would not consider myself to be very patriotic. My views are not that nationalistic either.

I can not really come up with a satisfactory reason as to why I reacted the way I did.

Has anyone ever experienced something similar to this. I was really surprised by how defensive I became when I was mistaken for a British person. And embarrassed too.

I'm not sure what direction this discussion will/can go, but I thought it might be interesting.

metrovelvet · 30-11-2009 1:01am

I think those kinds of reactions come from people who come from secondary nations. Canadians always get upset if they are mistaken for American but Americans dont care if you mistake them for Canadian.

In fairness there are certain Irish accents that I sometimes mistake for British, and the northeast of the US and the northeast of Canada also sound similar.

Relax, its an easy mistake to make.

Eliot Rosewater · 30-11-2009 4:01pm

Well Ill preface by saying that Ive been totally alienated by this idea of "Irish identity." Principally because it doesn't seem to be as much pro-Irish as it is anti-British and anti-"prodys." In all my life I haven't heard many people say "Ireland is great - look at our great culture of literature and music." Instead its usually "We're way better than those baby-killing prody Brit bastards." Its effectively a negative identity, based on putting down the other culture rather than appreciating our own.

This is especially tragic given there is so much to appreciate - go to the Irish literature section of Hodges Figgis Dublin and see all the greats Ireland has produced. Joyce, Swift, Yeats etc. Consider the Man Booker prize which is the most prestigious award for a novel in the British Commonwealth, Ireland and Zimbabwe. Irish authors have won it 4 times out of 41 (years 1969-2009). Thats 9% of the winners for a country that makes up a mere 0.25% of the population of the region chosen from. How great is that?

But - when did you hear a patriot mention this? Never, I imagine, as bashing ancient history is way more fun that appreciating our own culture.

I don't think any one culture is superior to any other one, they are just different. Ditto for this idea of a "nation," which I think is a bit outdated. I have more in common with some people I know in the States than I do my next door neighbor. Yet I am put in the same "nation" or "society" as my neighbor, despite having nothing in common with them except out place of birth. This is the libertarian reason I dont subscribe to nationalism towards one particular place.

Perhaps Kurt Vonnegut said it best:

Kurt Vonnegut wrote:

"You hate America, don't you?" she said.

"That would be as silly as loving it," I said. "It's impossible for me to get emotional about it, because real estate doesn't interest me. It's no doubt a great flaw in my personality, but I can't think in terms of boundaries. Those imaginary lines are as unreal to me as elves and pixies. I can't believe that they mark the end or the beginning of anything of real concern to the human soul. Virtues and vices, pleasures and pains cross boundaries at will."

#15 · 30-11-2009 5:42pm

Eliot, my views are quite similar to your own. Which is why I was so surprised by my reaction to the 'Are you British?' question!

b12mearse · 30-11-2009 5:48pm

I think alot of Irish culture has been invented. We are in denial of Britains legacy in this country. So we turn to the likes of boggers in the west, like galway, kerry and in the north donegal in search of the 'Irish' identity.

Medievalist · 30-11-2009 6:09pm

I think maybe it's also because British is the only nationality we can be mistaken for. If she had thought you were French you would have just laughed it off. But when we have a strong sense of who we are, and it isn't obvious to someone else, then the natural reaction is to get a bit peeved.

TheCandystripes · 30-11-2009 11:16pm

yeah interesting question. growing up in france many would just have thought ireland was british. it really annoyed me yet i never had any love for my parents country or anything i always considered myself french.

i think irish identity is kind of insecure if i'm honest. its hard to define what is irish in 21st century with both british and american influence. a lot of countries face americanisation but they speak their own language, ireland doesn't have this and is subject to two bigger more powerful cultures influencing them. it will be interesting to see accent of irsih people in 100 years.

seahorse · 01-12-2009 12:50pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think those kinds of reactions come from people who come from secondary nations.

I don't find it at all offensive if somebody mistakes me for British while abroad but, if when they discovered their mistake, they referred to me as coming from one of the worlds 'secondary nations' I would assume they knew very little about Irish history; and I would be right.

This country was populated for millennia before the colonists arrived here. The evidence of that is displayed in natural history museums all over the land. Ireland is widely recognised internationally as possessing the oldest archeological sights in Western Europe. There is nothing ‘secondary’ about this nation.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 1:36pm

seahorse wrote: »

This country was populated for millennia before the colonists arrived here. The evidence of that is displayed in natural history museums all over the land. Ireland is widely recognised internationally as possessing the oldest archeological sights in Western Europe. There is nothing ‘secondary’ about this nation.

What does the age of its archeological sites have to do with anything?

Zulu · 01-12-2009 1:42pm

It's evidence that our culture and society not only existed, but trived long before others; our roots run deeper.

To refer to the Irish as a "secondary" nation, is a little offensive.

topper75 · 01-12-2009 1:56pm

b12mearse wrote: »

I think alot of Irish culture has been invented. We are in denial of Britains legacy in this country. So we turn to the likes of boggers in the west, like galway, kerry and in the north donegal in search of the 'Irish' identity.

All culture is 'invented' is it not? I mean British culture was 'invented' with the act of union with Scotland.

I'm not in denial of Britain's legacy here. I weigh and measure myself in stone and feet. I am typing now in English. You may be in denial of your Irishness though, as your dismissal of people of the west betrays. The Gaelic culture and language thrive there, and it doesn't sit well with you.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 2:34pm

Zulu wrote: »

It's evidence that our culture and society not only existed, but trived long before others; our roots run deeper.

To refer to the Irish as a "secondary" nation, is a little offensive.

So did the Egyptians. So did the mesopotamians. So what?

Its still a derivative culture. It just adopted everything British, its political structure, etc and stuck Irish names on it. In terms of exports, what does it export culturalluy? The past. And if it werent for the diaspora how many would be interested in it? It never had the same influence as the US, China, France, Rome, or Great Britain. Its a teeny tiny neutral country, you cant blame people for not knowing where it is or anything about it.

Everything you see on RTE is English or American. Even its own programming still adopts foreign "forms."

Sorry if you find it offensive. But its a bit like Canadians when you ask about products from the US, they often dont say something is "American". They say "north American" because they have hangups about being in the American shadow.

seahorse · 01-12-2009 3:04pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

What does the age of its archeological sites have to do with anything?

It illustrates that civilisation in Ireland predates the arrival of colonists by thousands of years.

What does the term 'secondary nation' have to do with anything?

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 3:09pm

seahorse wrote: »

It illustrates that civilisation in Ireland predates the arrival of colonists by thousands of years.

What does the term 'secondary nation' have to do with anything?

I still dont get what you are saying. So does Mexico's, so does the US, so do many post colonial states.

Its secondary because its not primary. Its not a nation that shapes the world. Its tiny, its neutral, and its exports are crystal and beer. And people.

liah · 01-12-2009 3:12pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

But its a bit like Canadians when you ask about products from the US, they often dont say something is "American". They say "north American" because they have hangups about being in the American shadow.

We don't have hangups about being in the American shadow. We do not take kindly to being compared to them because we don't agree with how the country has conducted itself in the last decade and continues to conduct itself. Nothing to do with being in a shadow. It's offensive because of our completely polarized viewpoints, not our size or status with the rest of the world.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 3:14pm

liah wrote: »

We don't have hangups about being in the American shadow. We do not take kindly to being compared to them because we don't agree with how the country has conducted itself in the last decade and continues to conduct itself. Nothing to do with being in a shadow. It's offensive because of our completely polarized viewpoints, not our size or status with the rest of the world.

Well then why dont you just say that certain goods and products are American and not North American.

Plus I dont know why you get offended when its so easy to confuse the northeastern american accent with the canadian one. Its not the other persons fault.

liah · 01-12-2009 3:36pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Well then why dont you just say that certain goods and products are American and not North American.

Typically it's not relevant where a product comes from, so there's really no need to state it's American in the conversation. If it were to come up, I, and everyone else I know wouldn't have problems with products being from America. Why would we? I've never encountered anyone who does that tbh.

Zulu · 01-12-2009 3:36pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

So did the Egyptians. So did the mesopotamians. So what?

It displays the culture existed before the country was colonised. You understand that, right?

Its still a derivative culture.

Em, how could a culture that existed before hand be a derivative?

It just adopted everything British, its political structure, etc and stuck Irish names on it.

We didn't "adopt" the political structure. Are you aware of Irish history?

In terms of exports, what does it export culturalluy?

Other than globally exporting art, literature, quality goods, and highly skilled professionals. Not a whole lot considering the population is about 3 million. :rolleyes:

It never had the same influence as the US, China, France, Rome, or Great Britain.

Ireland & the Irish have had a massive impact on both Europe and the US relative to its size.
Sure we never bombed a plethora of other countries into the third world, by hey, thats just another thing that make be proud to be Irish.

You cant blame people for not knowing where it is or anything about it.

True, some countries are extremely introspective and ignorant. Most Europeans would know where it is though.

Everything you see on RTE is English or American.

Well thats bullshit.

But its a bit like Canadians when you ask about products from the US, they often dont say something is "American". They say "north American" because they have hangups about being in the American shadow.

Thats very accurate, and I can sympathise with Canadians, I wouldn't like to be confused with a neighbouring nation that has a similar reputation.

liah wrote: »

We don't have hangups about being in the American shadow. We do not take kindly to being compared to them because we don't agree with how the country has conducted itself in the last decade and continues to conduct itself. Nothing to do with being in a shadow. It's offensive because of our completely polarized viewpoints, not our size or status with the rest of the world.

+1 Very well made point.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 3:38pm

ok fine then. Believe that if you want.

You want to be proud of something that happenned centuries ago, then all you have is the past and everyone's got one of those.

liah · 01-12-2009 3:42pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Plus I dont know why you get offended when its so easy to confuse the northeastern american accent with the canadian one. Its not the other persons fault.

To respond to your edit:

I wasn't aware we did? I always maintain that border Canada's accent is very neutral and sounds like your average American one. The coasts do have a bit of an accent but Ontario's accent, at least (where I've spent the majority of my life), is quite like the rest of the continent.

Where are you meeting these so-called Canadians, because I've never met any who take offense to.. well, anything, other than being offended by people who think Canadians are living in the "American Shadow." Which, tbh, is nothing but a bunch of grandiousity and propaganda on America's part.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 3:58pm

But you just said that they get offended by being mistaken for American because of how america has behaved in the last ten years and now you are saying you arent aware that they get offended?

I get mistaken for Canadian alot. Very typical northeastern US accent. And people say to me "oh I just said Canadian just in case and you wouldnt get offended being mistaken for American."

liah · 01-12-2009 4:01pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

But you just said that they get offended by being mistaken for American because of how america has behaved in the last ten years and now you are saying you arent aware that they get offended?

I get mistaken for Canadian alot. Very typical northeastern US accent. And people say to me "oh I just said Canadian just in case and you wouldnt get offended being mistaken for American."

We get offended by being called similar to America, which we're not, but it's not because of the shadow business you were going on about. So yes, it's offensive, because we are our own country and we are ridiculously different to the US regardless of whether or not we use American products or watch American television. We would not get offended if you pointed out a product, film, band, whatever that was American. We would get offended if you said America and Canada are the same or Canada is "jealous" of America, or living in America's shadow.

Nobody ever mentioned a Canadian getting offended by someone saying they had an American accent except you, and I was saying I've never met a Canadian who would be offended by that.

Clear now?

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 4:05pm

Who ever mentioned being compared to them. I was talking about being MISTAKEN for an American.

The thing is - I would never get offended by someone saying that America is living in someone else's shadow. You know why? BEcause I know its not true. You could argue that we are living in China's shadow, now that China owns us basically, but why be offended by that since it's a fact.

liah · 01-12-2009 4:11pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Who ever mentioned being compared to them. I was talking about being MISTAKEN for an American.

The thing is - I would never get offended by someone saying that America is living in someone else's shadow. You know why? BEcause I know its not true. You could argue that we are living in China's shadow, now that China owns us basically, but why be offended by that since it's a fact.

What exactly defines a shadow-casting country, then? Does a country's ability to join in warfare make them a primary nation? All the nations you mentioned were highly war-based and put great emphasis on military operations.

It is offensive to say any country is in the shadow of another, primarily because countries are different and have different ideals and viewpoints regardless of how similar their media or product tastes are. Theoretically you could say all of Europe is pretty much the same, but could you really compare the politics and ideology of the Netherlands or Sweden to that of Ireland or Italy? Sure, they dress similarly and listen to similar music and I'm sure we all watch the same American-produced programs and movies, but the countries cannot possibly hold the same standards of merit and thus one cannot really say one is better or more "primary" than another; they just choose to operate at a different wavelength and perhaps don't see having the greatest military or most popular media or most well-known products as standards of judgement.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 4:17pm

liah wrote: »

What exactly defines a shadow-casting country, then? Does a country's ability to join in warfare make them a primary nation? All the nations you mentioned were highly war-based and put great emphasis on military operations.

So? You think neutrality is good? Do you think it is praiseworthy to stand by and let other countries fight the battles? Let other countries sacrifice their young men while yours stands back and does nothing? You think that is laudable?

liah wrote: »

It is offensive to say any country is in the shadow of another, primarily because countries are different and have different ideals and viewpoints regardless of how similar their media or product tastes are. Theoretically you could say all of Europe is pretty much the same, but could you really compare the politics and ideology of the Netherlands or Sweden to that of Ireland or Italy? Sure, they dress similarly and listen to similar music and I'm sure we all watch the same American-produced programs and movies, but the countries cannot possibly hold the same standards of merit and thus one cannot really say one is better or more "primary" than another; they just choose to operate at a different wavelength and perhaps don't see having the greatest military or most popular media or most well-known products as standards of judgement.

People dont pay much attention to the netherlands or sweden either, precely because they are not at the heart of Europe or of the west or of the ango saxon nations or of the east either. I could easily mistake somone one Finnish for Swedish or even German but I will certainly know the difference between French and Italian. I would put Ireland on the same map as Malta.

seahorse · 01-12-2009 4:19pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its secondary because its not primary.

You're going to have to elaborate on this if you expect me to understand you because this line is not making any sense. The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign nation and as such is neither secondary nor primary.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its not a nation that shapes the world.

Really? Well for starters, the Irish built modern-day America from the ground up and then it gave it the best president it ever had.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its tiny, its neutral, and its exports are crystal and beer. And people.

Irish exports are hugely broad and varied. A staggering percentage of the money in this country comes from our exports. Sorry Metro but you clearly do not know what you are talking about here and are coming across as someone who has more than a bit of a gripe towards Ireland. That's all very well, we're all entitled to our gripes, but please arm yourself with some current and historical facts before you come on to an Irish website making offensive comments to Irish people about Ireland!

seahorse · 01-12-2009 4:26pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

So? You think neutrality is good? Do you think it is praiseworthy to stand by and let other countries fight the battles? Let other countries sacrifice their young men while yours stands back and does nothing? You think that is laudable?

I certainly do think it is laudable to let Americans fight wars since America is consistently the country that starts them.

liah · 01-12-2009 4:27pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

So? You think neutrality is good? Do you think it is praiseworthy to stand by and let other countries fight the battles? Let other countries sacrifice their young men while yours stands back and does nothing? You think that is laudable?

Doesn't surprise me that it's come to this, but alright. I'll have a go.

Yes, I think neutrality is good. I think it's good to not enter into conflict where people's lives could be taken unless it's a matter like WWII where genocide is involved and people's lives are at stake. I don't think it's good to enter into conflict when one simply wants something-- like oil. I don't believe that's worth wasting lives over. I think there are better ways to deal with things like that.

9/11 originally had a good cause and at the beginning many countries were there for the United States in their time of need, including Canada. Unfortunately, the search for Osama in Afghanistan fell by the wayside when Bush got his eyes on the oil in Iraq, which is when support from other countries started to fall and Canada began peacekeeping.
It's not quite a decade later and the search for the original perpetrator of the attacks has not resumed. The cause is lost. I do not agree with the current war. And I think neutrality towards it is good.

I think it is praiseworthy when a country can be sensible about something and not immediately send the sons, brothers, and fathers of millions out to die without at least trying to resolve things in different manners or let the countries who got into it resolve it themselves. There is no need for world police. None at all.

People dont pay much attention to the netherlands or sweden either, precely because they are not at the heart of Europe or of the west or of the ango saxon nations or of the east either. I could easily mistake somone one Finnish for Swedish or even German but I will certainly know the difference between French and Italian. I would put Ireland on the same map as Malta.

Is global attention the measure of success of a nation, now? I would think a nation's overall level of happiness is a better indicator of success.

It's like these "superpower" countries are all utterly obsessed with being popular. It's just like highschool.

A country's worth should not be decided upon popularity. A country's worth should be decided on a number of factors, such as human rights (something which America is losing every day), overall happiness, safety, health, etc.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 4:29pm

seahorse wrote: »

You're going to have to elaborate on this if you expect me to understand you because this line is not making any sense. The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign nation and as such is neither secondary nor primary.

seahorse wrote: »

Really? Well for starters, the Irish built modern-day America from the ground up and then it gave it the best president it ever had.

A lot of people did. And dont even dare suggest it was the IRish. They were a part of it, but far from all of it.

JFK. LOL. PUHLEASE. You mean the man who started Vietnam and the the Bay of Pigs. Oh come on.

seahorse wrote: »

Irish exports are hugely broad and varied. A staggering percentage of the money in this country comes from our exports. Sorry Metro but you clearly do not know what you are talking about here and are coming across as someone who has more than a bit of a gripe towards Ireland. That's all very well, we're all entitled to our gripes, but please arm yourself with some current and historical facts before you come on to an Irish website making offensive comments to Irish people about Ireland!

No, I have a gripe against people with an over inflated sense of their nations importance. Take the recent football fiasco. The real reason there wasnt a replay is because they want the BIG nations in the world cup.

Zulu · 01-12-2009 4:55pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

So? You think neutrality is good? Do you think it is praiseworthy to stand by and let other countries fight the battles?

Well that depends really. Who started the battle? And what was the purpose of the battle?
Ireland has always fought it's own battles and has on many occasions has gone to keep the peace in other countries. Now an important thing to note here is, Irish peace keeping doesn't involve invading other countries.

Let other countries sacrifice their young men while yours stands back and does nothing? You think that is laudable?

Give an example of where this has happened. You are taking shit. Total and utter shit.

People dont pay much attention to the netherlands or sweden either

now when you say "people", who do you mean? Americans?

precely because they are not at the heart of Europe

People in Europe and Russia pay very close attention as they a social system that is exemplary.

or of the west or of the ango saxon nations or of the east either.

Eh the Saxons are from... ...nevermind. So "people" only pay attention to central Europe, is it? :rolleyes:

I could easily mistake somone one Finnish for Swedish or even German but I will certainly know the difference between French and Italian.

Thats just ignorance on your part though. Culturally they're somewhat unique.

I would put Ireland on the same map as Malta.

Good one. So would I. A map of the planet would contain both.

TheCandystripes · 01-12-2009 4:55pm

yeah haha i laugh i think irish people think the groups in america are 'the blacks' the irish and just americans, in reality irish were just one of many groups from europe and beyond to go there and jfk is overrated.

Zulu · 01-12-2009 4:56pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

No, I have a gripe against people with an over inflated sense of their nations importance.

Considering you dragged this thread off on a Canada & US tangent, you could do well to take a moment to consider your comment on a personal level.

TheCandystripes · 01-12-2009 4:58pm

ireland really isnt that big on world stage but it has a good pr which makes it more known than belgium. lets face it ireland is a boring country.

seahorse · 01-12-2009 5:26pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

No, I have a gripe against people with an over inflated sense of their nations importance.

Lol! I hope you “have a gripe” against your own countrymen so, because that tendency is nowhere on earth exhibited to the extent it is among Americans. In fact, they are notorious world-wide for their nationalistic arrogance.

metrovelvet wrote: »

JFK. LOL. PUHLEASE. You mean the man who started Vietnam and the the Bay of Pigs. Oh come on.

The American military was involved in Vietnamese affairs for the guts of ten years before JFK came to office. It’s clear you know as little about American history and politics as you do Irish.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 5:59pm

seahorse wrote: »

Lol! I hope you “have a gripe” against your own countrymen so, because that tendency is nowhere on earth exhibited to the extent it is among Americans. In fact, they are notorious world-wide for their nationalistic arrogance.

seahorse wrote: »

They are not alone. The Irish also have a rep for being up their own asses, as do the French.

[QUOTE=seahorse;63286145
The American military was involved in Vietnamese affairs for the guts of ten years before JFK came to office. It’s clear you know as little about American history and politics as you do Irish.

He went in.

And besides which, JFK wasnt Irish, he was Irish American, like myself. This is part of the problem, you dont even know your own identities, you cant even tell who is Irish and who isnt.

Its clear you know very little about American history and the identity of our presidents which you claim to be of your own nationality, when they are not. Do you include your beloved JFK in your rather bigoted racist comment about Americans' nationalistic arrogance? He was an American after all.

metaoblivia · 01-12-2009 6:15pm

I think it's understandable that many Irish people would feel a strong Irish identity. It wasn't that long ago that the Irish were fighting to be recognized as a sovereign nation, having been ruled and oppressed by a neighboring country for so long. And as many similarities as the Irish may share with the British, Ireland is its own country and it's understandable that the Irish people would want others to recognize that.

I don't view nations as being primary or secondary because I find that arrogant and unnecessarily divisive. However, I do think some neighboring countries have a relationship reminiscent of sibling rivalry, and the more similarities those countries share, the more determined at least one is to establish an identity separate from the other.

Zulu · 01-12-2009 6:28pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

No, Liah did that. I mentioned Canadians having the same sensitivity to being mistaken for another nationality. She went off then on one about big bad evil america.

No, it was you aswell. You responed time and again.

metrovelvet wrote: »

They are not alone. The Irish also have a rep for being up their own asses, as do the French.

:rolleyes: Reputation with who exactly? You're posting shit. Again.

And besides which, JFK wasnt Irish, he was Irish American, like myself.

You're right. He was American, like yourself.
I find it particullary ironic that you'd post here knocking the Irish culture, and then claim to be "Irish American", a lable, arguably created, to give people lacking a culture a sence of belonging.

This is part of the problem, you dont even know your own identities, you cant even tell who is Irish and who isnt.

This is particullary rich from an "Irish American". :rolleyes:

metrovelvet wrote: »

And how about all the obnoxious things you said about my nationality? Which truly were obnoxious, not a simple observation about mistaken identity.

In this thread, you've, by far, been the most obnoxious poster.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 6:38pm

Zulu wrote: »

You're right. He was American, like yourself.

Ok so seahorse thinks hes Irish, you think hes American. Right. Neither of you can come to a consensus on what he is. In fact neither of you can even start talking about how identity is complex in post colonial nations.

Zulu wrote: »

I find it particullary ironic that you'd post here knocking the Irish culture, and then claim to be "Irish American", a lable, arguably created, to give people lacking a culture a sence of belonging.

Define irony. Do you know what it means? I suspect you mean paradoxical.

Americans do not lack a culture. If you say that they do lack one then wow. I cant teach you the basics- I really dont have time for that.

Zulu wrote: »

This is particullary rich from an "Irish American". :rolleyes:
In this thread, you've, by far, been the most obnoxious poster.

I think you are supposed to attack the post not the poster. And your contribution has certainly been lacklustre. Foul language even. How Gordan Ramsey of you. Oh wait - he's British right?

Zulu · 01-12-2009 9:50pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Neither of you can come to a consensus on what he is.

So what, we don't have to. You've ignore the salient point though. Nice.

In fact neither of you can even start talking about how identity is complex in post colonial nations.

Why not?

Define irony.

The indirect presentation of a contradiction between an action or expression and the context in which it occurs.

Do you know what it means?

Yes I do. Do you know what arrogant means?

Anyway, enough of the bickery. It only serves your purpose in hiding from the glaring ineptitude of your comments.

So do you care to actually answer the question put to you:

Zulu wrote: »

Em, how could a culture that existed before hand be a derivative?

Or do you now accept that your comment was obnoxious?

Bigdeadlydave · 01-12-2009 10:05pm

Last year when I was on my Holidays I was mistaken for being British. I felt insulted. Needless to say I brandished some of my broken Irish and set the person right. He was very apologetic.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 10:24pm

Zulu wrote: »

So what, we don't have to. You've ignore the salient point though. Nice.

What is the point?

Zulu wrote: »

Do you know what arrogant means?

Yes I do. Again I will ask what is your point in asking me this and how is it relevent?

Zulu wrote: »

So do you care to actually answer the question put to you:

Or do you now accept that your comment was obnoxious?

Do you now accept that your comment was personally abusive?

Zulu · 01-12-2009 10:35pm

Don't want to stay on topic, no? (Rhetorical question; don't answer)

How could a culture that existed before hand be a derivative, Metrovelvet? It couldn't be, could it.

metrovelvet wrote:

Its* still a derivative culture.

*Irish

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 10:38pm

Zulu wrote: »

Don't want to stay on topic, no? (Rhetorical question; don't answer)

How could a culture that existed before hand be a derivative, Metrovelvet? It couldn't be, could it.

*Irish

That culture does not exist anymore. Why are you talking about it now?

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 10:39pm

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Last year when I was on my Holidays I was mistaken for being British. I felt insulted. Needless to say I brandished some of my broken Irish and set the person right. He was very apologetic.

Why do you feel insulted?

Zulu · 01-12-2009 10:55pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

That culture does not exist anymore. Why are you talking about it now?

Bheul, is cumma cad a ceap tu, ta se fos beo. Buiochas le Dia.

It's both foolish and ignorant to believe that the culture doesn't exist because you don't observe it in america; it's both arrogant and obnoxious to dismiss it due to your own ignorance.

metrovelvet · 01-12-2009 11:08pm

Zulu wrote: »

Bheul, is cumma cad a ceap tu, ta se fos beo. Buiochas le Dia.

It's both foolish and ignorant to believe that the culture doesn't exist because you don't observe it in america; it's both arrogant and obnoxious to dismiss it due to your own ignorance.

Ta shey mahogany gaspipes as my native Dublin father used to say. Unless you grew up in the Gaeltacht that Irish is not your native tongue. You had to go to school to learn it, which makes it a second language, and lets face it, most Irish people did not grow up in Irish speaking communties.

Its both foolish and ignorant to think that culture from ages ago still exists when you live and breathe a culture that doesnt do anything until the Brits do it first, or the Americans. [Nama, the victorian christmas, soap operas, etc]. What is an example of current irish innovation and or cultural production and export?

Its so funny because I know exactly how I would argue against me if I were you, and you just havent copped onto it yet. Im waiting. I hope you see the loophole soon because im getting booooored.

Zulu · 01-12-2009 11:58pm

I didn't grow up in the gaeltacht, and Irish is my native tongue.
I had to go to school to learn English amonst other subjects.
Nama, christmas and soap operas don't make a culture.

Thats three for three.
You don't have a clue.

metrovelvet · 02-12-2009 12:05am

Zulu wrote: »

I didn't grow up in the gaeltacht, and Irish is my native tongue.
I had to go to school to learn English amonst other subjects.
Nama, christmas and soap operas don't make a culture.

Thats three for three.
You don't have a clue.

Why did you have to go to school to learn english? Are you an immigrant or developmentally slow that you spoke late in life?

I dont think your experience is representative of the nation.

Nama, christmas an soap operas are part of a wider nexus which makes up a culture, but then I cant be sure you know what culture is?

I think you are far too defensive and attached and maybe unsure about your identity to be able to discuss this raationally without constantly attacking me.

And btw its pretty rude to be talking to me in a foreign language I dont understand. boards.ie is in English. Its an engllish speaking forum. Take it to foreign languages if you want to speak Irish.

Notorious · 02-12-2009 12:39am

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its both foolish and ignorant to think that culture from ages ago still exists...

I'm not picking on you my friend, but as an American (you are, ain't ya?), I think you of all people should be able to respect different cultures, regardless of how old they are. After all, the United States of America would be one of the most multi-cultural societies in the world at the moment.

Nevyn · 02-12-2009 2:21am

There are things about irish culture that people dont' get and dont' see unless the are either emersed in it or far enough away from it to see.

Zulu · 02-12-2009 8:27am

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why did you have to go to school to learn english?

A brief education would indicate that there is more to a language than simply speaking it. Didn't you study English in school?

Are you an immigrant or developmentally slow that you spoke late in life?

Who said I spoke late in life? Although, if your education didn't include English I can understand how you may be getting confused.

I dont think your experience is representative of the nation.

Sure it is. You just don't know any better. Ignorance tbh.

An Irish identity

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