An Irish identity

metrovelvet wrote: »

No, I have a gripe against people with an over inflated sense of their nations importance.

Considering you dragged this thread off on a Canada & US tangent, you could do well to take a moment to consider your comment on a personal level.

TheCandystripes

ireland really isnt that big on world stage but it has a good pr which makes it more known than belgium. lets face it ireland is a boring country.

seahorse

metrovelvet wrote: »

No, I have a gripe against people with an over inflated sense of their nations importance.

Lol! I hope you “have a gripe” against your own countrymen so, because that tendency is nowhere on earth exhibited to the extent it is among Americans. In fact, they are notorious world-wide for their nationalistic arrogance.

metrovelvet wrote: »

JFK. LOL. PUHLEASE. You mean the man who started Vietnam and the the Bay of Pigs. Oh come on.

The American military was involved in Vietnamese affairs for the guts of ten years before JFK came to office. It’s clear you know as little about American history and politics as you do Irish.

seahorse wrote: »

Lol! I hope you “have a gripe” against your own countrymen so, because that tendency is nowhere on earth exhibited to the extent it is among Americans. In fact, they are notorious world-wide for their nationalistic arrogance.

seahorse wrote: »

They are not alone. The Irish also have a rep for being up their own asses, as do the French.

[QUOTE=seahorse;63286145
The American military was involved in Vietnamese affairs for the guts of ten years before JFK came to office. It’s clear you know as little about American history and politics as you do Irish.

He went in.

And besides which, JFK wasnt Irish, he was Irish American, like myself. This is part of the problem, you dont even know your own identities, you cant even tell who is Irish and who isnt.

Its clear you know very little about American history and the identity of our presidents which you claim to be of your own nationality, when they are not. Do you include your beloved JFK in your rather bigoted racist comment about Americans' nationalistic arrogance? He was an American after all.

metaoblivia

I think it's understandable that many Irish people would feel a strong Irish identity. It wasn't that long ago that the Irish were fighting to be recognized as a sovereign nation, having been ruled and oppressed by a neighboring country for so long. And as many similarities as the Irish may share with the British, Ireland is its own country and it's understandable that the Irish people would want others to recognize that.

I don't view nations as being primary or secondary because I find that arrogant and unnecessarily divisive. However, I do think some neighboring countries have a relationship reminiscent of sibling rivalry, and the more similarities those countries share, the more determined at least one is to establish an identity separate from the other.

metrovelvet wrote: »

No, Liah did that. I mentioned Canadians having the same sensitivity to being mistaken for another nationality. She went off then on one about big bad evil america.

No, it was you aswell. You responed time and again.

metrovelvet wrote: »

They are not alone. The Irish also have a rep for being up their own asses, as do the French.

:rolleyes: Reputation with who exactly? You're posting shit. Again.

And besides which, JFK wasnt Irish, he was Irish American, like myself.

You're right. He was American, like yourself.
I find it particullary ironic that you'd post here knocking the Irish culture, and then claim to be "Irish American", a lable, arguably created, to give people lacking a culture a sence of belonging.

This is part of the problem, you dont even know your own identities, you cant even tell who is Irish and who isnt.

This is particullary rich from an "Irish American". :rolleyes:

metrovelvet wrote: »

And how about all the obnoxious things you said about my nationality? Which truly were obnoxious, not a simple observation about mistaken identity.

In this thread, you've, by far, been the most obnoxious poster.

Zulu wrote: »

You're right. He was American, like yourself.

Ok so seahorse thinks hes Irish, you think hes American. Right. Neither of you can come to a consensus on what he is. In fact neither of you can even start talking about how identity is complex in post colonial nations.

Zulu wrote: »

I find it particullary ironic that you'd post here knocking the Irish culture, and then claim to be "Irish American", a lable, arguably created, to give people lacking a culture a sence of belonging.

Define irony. Do you know what it means? I suspect you mean paradoxical.

Americans do not lack a culture. If you say that they do lack one then wow. I cant teach you the basics- I really dont have time for that.

Zulu wrote: »

This is particullary rich from an "Irish American". :rolleyes:
In this thread, you've, by far, been the most obnoxious poster.

I think you are supposed to attack the post not the poster. And your contribution has certainly been lacklustre. Foul language even. How Gordan Ramsey of you. Oh wait - he's British right?

metrovelvet wrote: »

Neither of you can come to a consensus on what he is.

So what, we don't have to. You've ignore the salient point though. Nice.

In fact neither of you can even start talking about how identity is complex in post colonial nations.

Why not?

Define irony.

The indirect presentation of a contradiction between an action or expression and the context in which it occurs.

Do you know what it means?

Yes I do. Do you know what arrogant means?

Anyway, enough of the bickery. It only serves your purpose in hiding from the glaring ineptitude of your comments.

So do you care to actually answer the question put to you:

Zulu wrote: »

Em, how could a culture that existed before hand be a derivative?

Or do you now accept that your comment was obnoxious?

Bigdeadlydave

Last year when I was on my Holidays I was mistaken for being British. I felt insulted. Needless to say I brandished some of my broken Irish and set the person right. He was very apologetic.

Zulu wrote: »

So what, we don't have to. You've ignore the salient point though. Nice.

What is the point?

Zulu wrote: »

Do you know what arrogant means?

Yes I do. Again I will ask what is your point in asking me this and how is it relevent?

Zulu wrote: »

So do you care to actually answer the question put to you:

Or do you now accept that your comment was obnoxious?

Do you now accept that your comment was personally abusive?

Don't want to stay on topic, no? (Rhetorical question; don't answer)

How could a culture that existed before hand be a derivative, Metrovelvet? It couldn't be, could it.

metrovelvet wrote:

Its* still a derivative culture.

*Irish

Zulu wrote: »

Don't want to stay on topic, no? (Rhetorical question; don't answer)

How could a culture that existed before hand be a derivative, Metrovelvet? It couldn't be, could it.

*Irish

That culture does not exist anymore. Why are you talking about it now?

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Last year when I was on my Holidays I was mistaken for being British. I felt insulted. Needless to say I brandished some of my broken Irish and set the person right. He was very apologetic.

Why do you feel insulted?

metrovelvet wrote: »

That culture does not exist anymore. Why are you talking about it now?

Bheul, is cumma cad a ceap tu, ta se fos beo. Buiochas le Dia.

It's both foolish and ignorant to believe that the culture doesn't exist because you don't observe it in america; it's both arrogant and obnoxious to dismiss it due to your own ignorance.

Zulu wrote: »

Bheul, is cumma cad a ceap tu, ta se fos beo. Buiochas le Dia.

It's both foolish and ignorant to believe that the culture doesn't exist because you don't observe it in america; it's both arrogant and obnoxious to dismiss it due to your own ignorance.

Ta shey mahogany gaspipes as my native Dublin father used to say. Unless you grew up in the Gaeltacht that Irish is not your native tongue. You had to go to school to learn it, which makes it a second language, and lets face it, most Irish people did not grow up in Irish speaking communties.

Its both foolish and ignorant to think that culture from ages ago still exists when you live and breathe a culture that doesnt do anything until the Brits do it first, or the Americans. [Nama, the victorian christmas, soap operas, etc]. What is an example of current irish innovation and or cultural production and export?

Its so funny because I know exactly how I would argue against me if I were you, and you just havent copped onto it yet. Im waiting. I hope you see the loophole soon because im getting booooored.

I didn't grow up in the gaeltacht, and Irish is my native tongue.
I had to go to school to learn English amonst other subjects.
Nama, christmas and soap operas don't make a culture.

Thats three for three.
You don't have a clue.

Zulu wrote: »

I didn't grow up in the gaeltacht, and Irish is my native tongue.
I had to go to school to learn English amonst other subjects.
Nama, christmas and soap operas don't make a culture.

Thats three for three.
You don't have a clue.

Why did you have to go to school to learn english? Are you an immigrant or developmentally slow that you spoke late in life?

I dont think your experience is representative of the nation.

Nama, christmas an soap operas are part of a wider nexus which makes up a culture, but then I cant be sure you know what culture is?

I think you are far too defensive and attached and maybe unsure about your identity to be able to discuss this raationally without constantly attacking me.

And btw its pretty rude to be talking to me in a foreign language I dont understand. boards.ie is in English. Its an engllish speaking forum. Take it to foreign languages if you want to speak Irish.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its both foolish and ignorant to think that culture from ages ago still exists...

I'm not picking on you my friend, but as an American (you are, ain't ya?), I think you of all people should be able to respect different cultures, regardless of how old they are. After all, the United States of America would be one of the most multi-cultural societies in the world at the moment.

Nevyn

There are things about irish culture that people dont' get and dont' see unless the are either emersed in it or far enough away from it to see.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why did you have to go to school to learn english?

A brief education would indicate that there is more to a language than simply speaking it. Didn't you study English in school?

Are you an immigrant or developmentally slow that you spoke late in life?

Who said I spoke late in life? Although, if your education didn't include English I can understand how you may be getting confused.

I dont think your experience is representative of the nation.

Sure it is. You just don't know any better. Ignorance tbh.

Zulu wrote: »

A brief education would indicate that there is more to a language than simply speaking it. Didn't you study English in school?
Who said I spoke late in life? Although, if your education didn't include English I can understand how you may be getting confused.
Sure it is. You just don't know any better. Ignorance tbh.

My son is two and half is not in school and can speak English. Why did you have to go to school to learn English when nearly every native toddler can speak it?

Notorious wrote: »

I'm not picking on you my friend, but as an American (you are, ain't ya?), I think you of all people should be able to respect different cultures, regardless of how old they are. After all, the United States of America would be one of the most multi-cultural societies in the world at the moment.

I dont disrespect Irish culture. Not at all. What I am saying is that it is not one of the "big nations" with global impact and history and that is why a lot of people dont know anything about it ir why they might confuse an Irish person for British.

What I dont get is why Irish people get offended by being mistaken for British. Do they get offended if mistaken for French? Italian?

As for me being American, why don't you ask Zulu since he is so fond of telling me who and what I am.

And maybe he can tell me what my two year old is. Born in the US. In Ireland since he was 2 months old. Irish ? American? Irish American?

Identity is not always simple.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why did you have to go to school to learn English when nearly every native toddler can speak it?

Review the posts. You appear to be having difficulty understanding basic English. Perhaps your two and a half year old can help you?

seahorse

metrovelvet wrote: »

JFK wasnt Irish, he was Irish American, like myself. This is part of the problem, you dont even know your own identities, you cant even tell who is Irish and who isnt.

Its clear you know very little about American history and the identity of our presidents which you claim to be of your own nationality, when they are not.

I’m stepping out of this conversation now because I don’t have time to suffer fools. My life is just simply too busy for that Metrovelvet, but I have a couple of things to tell you before I go:

Any idiot could tell you JFK was Irish American, as are the 45+ million people of Irish descent who have helped shape the American nation.

America poked its nose into Vietnamese affairs long before JFK was ever inaugurated and the atrocities of Vietnam were carried out after he was assassinated, under the Johnson Administration. Go and read a history book, American, Irish, or better still Irish-American. It would give you a foundation to debate these issues, which you are currently clearly lacking.

And finally: I have not now and nor have I ever had any sense of confusion related to the identity of the Republic of Ireland as a sovereign nation, not a ‘secondary nation’, nor a ‘primary nation’ (as if there were such preposterous things) and I have yet to meet a self-proclaimed Irish person who was confused on that point.

metrovelvet wrote: »

a lot of people dont know anything about it ir why they might confuse an Irish person for British.

I can understand why an Irish person might be mistaken as a British person. It hasn't happened to me too often, but it has happened. A Canadian asked me if I was English recently, I said no - end of.

What I dont get is why Irish people get offended by being mistaken for British. Do they get offended if mistaken for French? Italian?

Firstly, I've never heard of an Irish person being mistaken for a French/Spanish/Italian/etc. person. That'd be a difficult mistake to make.

Now I so think it is understandable and obvious why some people get offended by it. Check out imstrongerthanu's post above. This is the attitude a lot of people have against the British. I'm not getting into that debate, but a lot of people still hold a grudge due to our past history.

Notorious wrote: »

I can understand why an Irish person might be mistaken as a British person. It hasn't happened to me too often, but it has happened. A Canadian asked me if I was English recently, I said no - end of.

Firstly, I've never heard of an Irish person being mistaken for a French/Spanish/Italian/etc. person. That'd be a difficult mistake to make.

Now I so think it is understandable and obvious why some people get offended by it. Check out imstrongerthanu's post above. This is the attitude a lot of people have against the British. I'm not getting into that debate, but a lot of people still hold a grudge due to our past history.

They get offended by it because they hate the British. Right. So it points to their own bigotry.

imstrongerthanu's post is racist and hate fueled and yet its permitted and not reprimanded. Why? Because its ok to hate the English. Hating the english is part of what it means to be Irish? Isnt that letting your enemy define you?

metrovelvet wrote: »

They get offended by it because they hate the British. Right. So it points to their own bigotry.

imstrongerthanu's post is racist and hate fueled and yet its permitted and not reprimanded. Why? Because its ok to hate the English. Hating the english is part of what it means to be Irish? Isnt that letting your enemy define you?

Hold on, you can't tar every Irish person with the same brush. I can only speak for myself; I don't hate the English. They aren't my 'enemy'. Nobody said that hating the English was ok, I just think we all just chose to ignore imstrongerthanu's post. The Irish and English debate is plastered all over boards, and it usually just leads to petty hate talk. They have their own opinion be it right or wrong, we ain't going to change that.

What I was trying to say was that it's generally obvious why someone would take offence to being referred to as English. I wouldn't.

Notorious wrote: »

Hold on, you can't tar every Irish person with the same brush. I can only speak for myself; I don't hate the English. They aren't my 'enemy'. Nobody said that hating the English was ok, I just think we all just chose to ignore imstrongerthanu's post. The Irish and English debate is plastered all over boards, and it usually just leads to petty hate talk. They have their own opinion be it right or wrong, we ain't going to change that.

What I was trying to say was that it's generally obvious why someone would take offence to being referred to as English. I wouldn't.

Its not obvious to me.

Kooli

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dont disrespect Irish culture. Not at all. What I am saying is that it is not one of the "big nations" with global impact and history and that is why a lot of people dont know anything about it ir why they might confuse an Irish person for British.

What I dont get is why Irish people get offended by being mistaken for British. Do they get offended if mistaken for French? Italian?

I actually agree with some of your points in that some Irish people have an over-inflated sense of their own importance in the sense that they are shocked or appalled when they go to a different country and meet someone who doesn't know something about us (that we use the euro, that we speak English, that we are not part of the UK etc. etc.). Some people don't realise that we are really quite small on the global stage, and that that's OK, there are only 4 million of us! And maybe that's what you mean by a 'secondary nation'?

As for why we get annoyed at being called British? I guess it's ingrained in our culture that we fought for centuries to be separate from the Brits, so separateness is a point of pride in itself, and rightly so. I personally wouldn't get annoyed, but I certainly wouldn't let it go uncorrected.

So I agree with that much of what you said. But you have been pretty condescending on this thread, which has got people's backs up and now there's not much chance of a reasonable discussion.