"dont give change to beggars please"

OP, well done you!

You give money to the beggars, and they buy coffee and sandwiches.

This keeps the coffee and sandwich industry going. Great. This is how the world should work.

Hey maybe the govt could also take some money from our salaries and redistribute it to the beggars as well?

they do, thats called income tax

Sean_K wrote: »

And correct me if I'm wrong but begging is illegal.

It's actually legal now.

chillywilly wrote: »

Also, thanks for you smug, sarcastic tone. It made me all warm and fuzzy inside:)

OK apologies - I shouldn't have written in this tone. But I still feel strongly that giving money to beggars is wrong. We already supply welfare payments to people who are in a tough place. The beggars are spending this on heroin and then go begging for more. By giving money you are a/ supporting the drug trade and all the misery that entails b/ encouraging the begging behaviour. This is not India. It is a first world country and people out begging must not be responsible types if they can't make use of generous state support (your money and my money) to get back on their feet.

The OP is a sheltered goon, perhaps when the beggar is some junkie trying to intimidate or a gang of roma's grabbing your arm maybe you wont be so quick to keep those people hanging around. Would you give beggars who sit beside those luas machines change because they intimidate you by giving advice on how to use the machines when its not wanted or needed? Ah sure hes only looking for his next fix throw him a few coins...

Yeah nothing like laws to force those who have been marginalised in society even further to the edge. And intimidating? if your intimidated by someone as pathetic as a beggar, walking to a shop must be a terrifying adventure every time.

I take it you have never walked down the quays. Sheltered.

jim o doom wrote: »

and that means they arn't all heroin users as another poster suggested.... ....judging poor cnuts who have fallen to the roadside

Gee! I hope I don't just 'fall' out on the roadside! LOL - is that what you really think happened to them?

I contest that beggars in Irish towns are indeed all heroin users or alcholics. There are dole payments and shelters for those who are bone fide. A bone fide homeless individual does not need to beg. Poor people begging happens in Asia, Africa, and S. America. The ones begging here are addicts. What good are you really doing by throwing money in the paper cup apart from easing your own middle class guilt?

topper75 wrote: »

Gee! I hope I don't just 'fall' out on the roadside! LOL - is that what you really think happened to them?

I contest that beggars in Irish towns are indeed all heroin users or alcholics. There are dole payments and shelters for those who are bone fide. A bone fide homeless individual does not need to beg. Poor people begging happens in Asia, Africa, and S. America. The ones begging here are addicts. What good are you really doing by throwing money in the paper cup apart from easing your own middle class guilt?

You can contest all you want, but without EVIDENCE all you are doing is making another SWEEPING generalisation. And all charity is selfish ultimately, either immidiate releif from "middle class guilt" which I mentionned in my 2nd last post from this one or the abilitity to be happy in heavan (HAH) for devoting "this" life (as if we had any other). And really - who cares if the beggar goes and buys themself some booze - their life is going to be unhappy, and most likely have an untimely end - if they get their very few remaining jollies through substance abuse, why not facilitate them.

Yes a number of homeless are drug or alcohol users. This thread is not the place to get into the difficulties of trying to get clean while living on the streets or in a hostel.

On the issue of giving money to those begging. Yes it will often be used to buy drugs. I for one would see that as a much better option than the alternatives they might otherwise consider.
fair play to the op!

taconnol wrote: »

Research has shown that for the majority of individuals, it is personal reasons that lead to homelessness (drug addiction, alcoholism, abuse at home, job loss, divorce) but that it is institutional factors that prevent individuals from leaving homelessness.

Job loss leads to homelessness? Divorce? are we still talking about the same country?

Ireland has one of the lowest levels of social welfare spending per capita in Europe (no doubt linked to our lower levels of taxation). There are over 44,000 families on waiting lists for social housing (multiply by 4 to get the number of individuals on average). Policies over the last 15 years have displayed a philosophy towards housing as a commodity, rather than as a human right. So more and more people are unable to enter the housing market - either as renters or buyers.

See many families out on the streets do we? What a load of sensationalist nonsense.

The attitudes of these businesses are shocking. Profits before people, it seems.

It may be a cliche but it's the measure of a society how it treats its young, elderly and infirm. We do not measure up well.

You talk like these problems are irish only.

havana wrote:

On the issue of giving money to those begging. Yes it will often be used to buy drugs. I for one would see that as a much better option than the alternatives they might otherwise consider.
fair play to the op!

Give them money in case they decide to violently rob somebody? Brilliant. Yeah that's not intimidating. Sounds like appeasement, thats really going to fix the problem.

jim wrote:

Another point RE income tax & what the Govt SHOULD be doing for the homeless; this is the government that more or less NOBODY on boards.ie (that I have seen so far anyway) trusts to be capable of even finding their ar$e with 2 hands, a map, several civial servants & an ar$e finding expert.. and yet when it comes to the homelss, suddenly the government is doing all they can to help these cnuts, because the government does what is right for all of us? don't they?

Done much lately to help the homeless have we? What have you done lately?

jim wrote:

You can contest all you want, but without EVIDENCE all you are doing is making another SWEEPING generalisation.

If you could bet your nice house on it what would you say the majority are? Alco's and junkie's or just "poor sods who fell on the way side"?

And all charity is selfish ultimately, either immidiate releif from "middle class guilt" which I mentionned in my 2nd last post from this one or the abilitity to be happy in heavan (HAH) for devoting "this" life (as if we had any other).

You didn't challenge his assumption, you like to challenge the assumption's about beggars but wouldn't challenge the one above. A correct one maybe? Listen, it's easy preaching from the ivory tower. You are sheltered, your opinion isn't based on any kind of experience. Easy to rally for what you haven't experienced.

And really - who cares if the beggar goes and buys themself some booze - their life is going to be unhappy, and most likely have an untimely end - if they get their very few remaining jollies through substance abuse, why not facilitate them.

What a solution. Hooked on gear out on the streets everyone lining up to chuck some money into your gear box. Its like junkie heaven.

jim wrote:

This is true, because despite them not all being addicted to drugs/alcohol, most of em are However, that doesn't mean it's going to kill you or them to give the odd one a few bob - even if it is just in a selfish attempt to alleviate a guilty conciensce for being a well adjusted member of society. Hell giving is giving.

Well adjusted member of society? Is that what you are? Because you feel guilty about smack heads begging. Is that really the criteria to be a well adjusted member of society? Ever given the roma a few quid as well? The poor woman has a baby you must feel god awful guilty when you walk past them. Your not a well adjusted member of society mate, your just an easily manipulated member of society who when he gets a hard dose of the real world, wont be singing the same tune.

taconnol wrote: »

That's it? That's your reason for not helping homeless people? Because you make some insane assumptions like their relationship with their family??

Its one of the reasons. Do you really consider throwing a 2 euro coin helping? My point was you dont just happen to be homeless someday for no reason. You think its insane to think they must of really been ***** to get no help from their family? Not even a room? thats insane?

And then if their family turns their back on them, so should the rest of society? What sort of warped logic is that? For a start, families don't have the same tools to help with addictions that social services do.

If the family cant help your meaningless gesture in the form of a few coins to make yourself feel better most certainly wont. If they want to get help how on earth is you chipping in for their next fix going to help that? And you accuse me of warped logic?

You're a bit too trigger-happy with the "naive" label.

Maybe, but i think its justified.

How many people on here have ever actually spoken to a homeless person or drug user. I'd imagine not too many. Hence the sweeping generalisations. I love the assumption that the 'polite' begger must not have been a 'junkie' because he was polite.

i meet polite 'junkies' every day of my life. And i meet 'scum' ones too. And i also meet polite and scum from every other walk of life in this city.

Whoever put down the 'and i'll show you 10 junkies' challenge i'll see you challenge and raise it. You show me 10 scum i'll show you 50 polite.

taconnol wrote: »

You're assuming that
a) they have any family
b) the family are kind enough to want to help
c) the family feel that they can help
d) the family are actually able to help
e) the family aren't the reason they're homeless in the FIRST place

Yeah im making assumptions, I don't want to get to know them all. Do you?

As I mentioned earlier many homeless people leave home because of bad situations, abuse, divorce, etc. You take one look at a person, make a whole raft of assumptions and in my book, that's called being prejudiced.

Divorce? Seriously stop adding things in for the sake of it. Yes im prejudice. Ever pre judge somebody? A gang of youths coming towards you? A traveler wanting to tarmac your drive? A bunch of roma? People prejudge all the time for their own safety.

I also mentioned that research has shown that it is institutional factors that keep homeless people on the streets.

Homelessness isn't an irish only issue. Blame whatever you want there will always be homeless.

For me, it isn't the €2 that I give them that is the most important, part of it is acknowledging they exist and acknowledging that they are in need. The worst thing for a homeless person must be for someone to walk past and not even acknowledge their existence. I do also give to charities to support the homeless.

Seriously, are you taking the piss. The whole point of not acknowledging them is that once you make eye contact they start asking. Same principle with chuggers, dont make eye contact and the chances of being hassled are less. Do you make eye contact and give money to all them or just the one to stop your guilt?

Unfortunately, I think you're displaying the most naitivite on here on the subject of homelessness. Taking a tough stance doesn't automatically mean that everyone else is naive.

Of course it doesn't. But when people have to put up with constant intimidation whether its someone sitting at an ATM or somebody sitting at a luas ticket machine, they tend not to be so apologetic. Or some junkie asked for a euro for the bus, "come on its only a ****in euro" You get me...

All too often the reason people don't in into treatment is not a lack of desire to do so but the lack of places and other obstacles. There are approx 25 detox beds for all drug users and a waiting list that is months long for homeless drug users.

I walk the quays every day. I live and work on them. And i don't dispute there is aggressive beggers out there. I just don't hold with sweeping generalisations.

Deleted User wrote: »

taconnol, I'm curious since you seem to have access to stats and figures, but does the small change/small moneys that people might give on the street actually make much of a difference to homeless people? I can see that it might make the difference between having a meal or not, but does it help to move them off the streets?

(This is in no way a dig or such. I'm genuinely curious since I know very little about homeless people themselves or their situations)

a couple of coins in someones cup will tide them over for a while. A meal, a pack of smokes. Yeah maybe a drink or their drugs. It may help towards paying for a hostel for the night. But it won't provide any help for a long term solution. Of which they're aren't that many. And having a bed for the night is no solution to homelessness. Its just that a bed for a night. The next day you are back on the street. Hopefully you will have a bed the next night but for that day chances are you have nowhere to go. Most hostels don't allow you access to facilities during the day.

taconnol wrote: »

Not knowing someone doesn't mean you have to make assumptions about them

Well my life goes on..

As havana said, it will make a small difference and no doubt many of them spend it on alcohol and drugs.

............................................................................

Well at least you're admitting to it. Ooh a gang of "youths" walking in my direction...no I don't prejudge people. I don't walk around in fear for my safety and I don't put myself in silly situations but no I don't start hyperventilating when some kids walk past me.

Look at you doing the assumptions now. Big bad fearless tacannol hailing from the mean streets of Terenure. Im not afraid to walk places but you think the same can be said for everyone? Why doesn't a woman accept a lift off a stranger? Why doesn't a kid? Are they silly situations? Funny how you slipped that one in. Is walking through a field at night with a gang of blokes at an entrance a silly situation? Or are you going to apply it some posh kids with curly hair walking towards you on grafton street. Whatever makes you happy.

I also like the way you equate being on your guard when a gang come near you to hyperventilating around kids. Show's what you know.

Divorce: go educate yourself:

http://www.dubsimon.ie/publications/factsonhomeless.htm

Last year people became homeless because of..

Relationship breakdown

The immediate cause of homelessness is often a relationship breakdown - irreconcilable personal differences, family violence, sexual abuse, rejection, or parents who are unable to care

Im convinced!

It's not about whether homeless people exist, it's how we deal with the situation. Not only is there a stigma attached to social or public housing, we have reduced the amount of public housing down from 33% in the 60s to 7%. We just don't provide the facilities necessary to help the homelesseness.

The best facilities homeless people need are rehab centres. Things to help the addictions is what i would be in favour of doing.

See the whole point is that I stop worrying about myself and my own already high levels of comfort for just ONE second. God yes, being asked for money - the trauma, the stress. God - why doesn't someone set up a charity for people who are stopped by chuggers?? Seriously - you need to wake up to the reality of the terrible conditions people live in and stop being so self-centred.

But you see why is it always people who have nothing better to do or nothing to deal with themselves that are the ones always preaching? Am i self centred? Yeah i am. When you have **** to deal with the homeless people will be the furthest thing from your mind. Its why the people who always protest are some curly haired gimps who has mammy and daddy to buy them everything they ever need from the age of 0. What do you do to help the homeless? Do you just preach to make yourself feel better? The 2 euro doesn't help them, if you want to help them a sandwich will go way further than you chipping in for drink or drugs.

First off - if people are intimidated by a person sitting at an ATM, they need to go on a confidence course. In the grander scheme of things, having someone asking you for some change is not a terrible affliction compared to the other **** people get thrown at them in life. Get a bit of perspective.

Well when taking out money i dont like some junkie sitting beside me asking for money. You think that wouldn't be intimidating for a woman or young small guy? You neglected to mention about the luas junkies, do you really want to say to people that they are not trying to intimidate people? Go ahead im sure there is many people who would like to jump in and tell you otherwise.

Being the hardman on the internet doesn't mean jack ****. You can waffle on about confidence courses and hyperventilating all you want about people who dont like that sort of **** and how you fear nothing blah blah. Doesn't make it so in the real world.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Giving them money or an address isn't going to solve their problems.

this is actually true. Its a much more long term process than this.


i know one guy who was years waiting for a flat. By the time he got it his health was so poor he was dead within a couple of days. Another mam was homeless for 30 years. He got a flat and within a week was back in the hostel. He just couldn't cope living on his own.

we are talking about people here. Individuals with stories. And often amazing and harrowing stories. Yes many are substance users but research shows that homelessness adds to drug and alcohol use. It surely doesn't take a genius to work out why that might be. And for those who do want to stop its really difficult to do so when living on the streets. If only it were as easy as getting a place in 'rehab'

taconnol wrote: »

What do you mean?

To help, its been answered below.

So because I don't agree with your opinion that homeless people are intimidating I am therefore full of bollocks? Do you think that of everyone who doesn't agree with all your opinions?

No but if your going to trivialise intimidation and try to mock it you are full of bollocks.

I have lived in 3rd world countries where we had rottweilers & doberman guarding the house, electric gates, armed guards protecting our house when my dad went away on business. I have been in the car when tribal fights with bush knives flying are going on nearby. I have been followed by men late at night, who were threatening me verbally and have had other nasty experiences.


So don't assume that I have lived a sheltered life. I choose to take the necessary precautions, did a self-defense course, and do not live my life in fear of homeless people.

Yet you mock people who get intimidated? Looks like in the 3rd world country you had plenty of protection. And the fact you done self defense courses to protect yourself shows you are on guard. So why mock people who dont have training? Who cant defend themselves?

I give monthly donations a homeless charity, as well as other charities that deal with environmental and international development issues. I have gone back to university to do an MSc in the area of development and will hopefully get a job in the development sector.

Fair play.

As mentioned above, I have lived in countries that are nearly lawless and yes I have had nasty personal experiences.

You wouldn't have survived without protection and without being extremely wary, would you agree with that? I'd say you received plenty of advice too about what places not to go and what to do to avoid any trouble for yourself.

There's a difference between acknowledging that this stuff happens and assuming that all homeless people are assholes.

Of course there is. I just dont want to find out if it they are an arsehole or a nice person. Because when they ask for money and you acknowledge them by saying sorry i dont have any change, they go ah go on just a euro etc. Some of them get quite pissed off at that point. I dont want to put up with that.

Not following? I'm talking about the culture of fear in the media. Women in particular are encouraged to live in fear of the next mugger/rapist/axe murderer around the corner. I don't let that crap take over.

Oh without a doubt i agree completely. Scaremongering is bad, but the other extreme is as bad, that everywhere is safe. People tend to be fearful due to experiences. They dont want that happening again so if that means avoiding an ATM or a luas ticket machine so be it. Ditto for walking through that dark lane at night even though its a short cut. You took self defense courses, you didnt take them for no reason.

Even if people are intimidated by homeless people, does that mean that they should be removed? In the UK, many teenagers are practically treated like criminals and are given dispersal orders even though they're doing nothing wrong and are just hanging around.

Well the shop wants to get as much business as it can, why would it want them their if they were intimidating customers?

Just hanging around doing nothing and getting dispersal orders? na