"dont give change to beggars please"

chillywilly

I came out of a newsagents in Rathmines yesterday. Anyone who knows Rathmines will know that theres always one or two homeless people around the Swan centre. I always see one in particular, i rememeber once he held open the door for me, i said thank you and i remember him saying "your welcome". The way he said "your welcome" was kind of an appreciative way of saying "thanks for acknowledging me".

Anyway, he mostly sits outside this newsagents, not doing much. I came out of the newsagents and noticed a sign in the window of the shop where he usually sits. The sign said "dont give change to beggars please".:eek:

I was pretty f*cking annoyed at this sign. To be honest, im no Mother Teresa, sometimes I give money to the homeless, sometimes I dont, but IMO the shop has no right to tell people to give them money or not. Maybe they had their reasons to put it up, but I dont think this was the solution and I found it very offensive.

I wasnt in a very confronational mood, so i didnt go into the shop(feel i should have looking back) so I just took out a marker and scribbled over the sign. The shop assistant clearly saw me do this, but I wasnt too bothered. I know that may seem stupid but it really pissed me off! I then went on my way, and on my way back the sign was gone!:rolleyes:

I wanted to see if people agreed with me, would you done things differently? Or did the shop have every right to put the sign up?

"rant over";)

Thomas_S_Hunterson

What shop wants a smelly beggar loitering around outside to be honest? It intimidates customers.

The fact that people are giving them money is encouraging it.

And correct me if I'm wrong but begging is illegal.

chillywilly

I personally dont find it intimidating.

If giving change to the homeless encourages others to give some too, then even better!

Im not sure if it is illegal, i know that a new law just came in to stop "aggressive begging". Im not sure how you define that term but the man is definetly not aggresive.

topper75

OP, well done you!

You give money to the beggars, and they buy coffee and sandwiches.

This keeps the coffee and sandwich industry going. Great. This is how the world should work.

Hey maybe the govt could also take some money from our salaries and redistribute it to the beggars as well?

chillywilly

Actually, yes. The government should be putting more money into getting homeless people off the street.

Also, thanks for you smug, sarcastic tone. It made me all warm and fuzzy inside:)

ham_n_mustard

they do, thats called income tax

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

What shop wants a smelly beggar loitering around outside to be honest? It intimidates customers.

The fact that people are giving them money is encouraging it.

And correct me if I'm wrong but begging is illegal.

Yeah nothing like laws to force those who have been marginalised in society even further to the edge. And intimidating? if your intimidated by someone as pathetic as a beggar, walking to a shop must be a terrifying adventure every time.

topper75

Sean_K wrote: »

And correct me if I'm wrong but begging is illegal.

It's actually legal now.

chillywilly wrote: »

Also, thanks for you smug, sarcastic tone. It made me all warm and fuzzy inside:)

OK apologies - I shouldn't have written in this tone. But I still feel strongly that giving money to beggars is wrong. We already supply welfare payments to people who are in a tough place. The beggars are spending this on heroin and then go begging for more. By giving money you are a/ supporting the drug trade and all the misery that entails b/ encouraging the begging behaviour. This is not India. It is a first world country and people out begging must not be responsible types if they can't make use of generous state support (your money and my money) to get back on their feet.

ITMissy

Actually i was in the big smoke for the first time in a long time lately, and the beggers at the Luas pay machine really did Intimidated me, and mumbled something not so nice under his breath when i didnt give him anything.

Davei141

The OP is a sheltered goon, perhaps when the beggar is some junkie trying to intimidate or a gang of roma's grabbing your arm maybe you wont be so quick to keep those people hanging around. Would you give beggars who sit beside those luas machines change because they intimidate you by giving advice on how to use the machines when its not wanted or needed? Ah sure hes only looking for his next fix throw him a few coins...

Yeah nothing like laws to force those who have been marginalised in society even further to the edge. And intimidating? if your intimidated by someone as pathetic as a beggar, walking to a shop must be a terrifying adventure every time.

I take it you have never walked down the quays. Sheltered.

jim o doom

Davei141 wrote: »

The OP is a sheltered goon, perhaps when the beggar is some junkie trying to intimidate or a gang of roma's grabbing your arm maybe you wont be so quick to keep those people hanging around. Would you give beggars who sit beside those luas machines change because they intimidate you by giving advice on how to use the machines when its not wanted or needed? Ah sure hes only looking for his next fix throw him a few coins...



I take it you have never walked down the quays. Sheltered.

Whoa, sweeping generalisations and assumptions about me, you sure love to make judgements there, dontcha? Judgements also based on VERY little evidence. The OP mentionned a polite beggar, so clearly NOT intimidating - whatever experiences you have had with other beggars doesn't mean they are all the same, and that means they arn't all heroin users as another poster suggested. Also, I train in town & am on the quays regulairily, and NO homeless person has ever intimidated me, in fact I am rarely even asked for change (perhaps due to having headphones on). Anyway, if it makes you feel better sitting (like me) in a nice warm room behind a PC judging poor cnuts who have fallen to the roadside, go ahead and judge judge judge - it just makes you look like an idiot - you based assumptions on me on a single post, i.e. ZERO evidence. nice.

Rev Hellfire

If you want to help the beggars you're better of offering them a hot meal from somewhere.
The answers you get will soon sort out any misguided ideals about helping these people you may find yourself burdened with.

jim o doom

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If you want to help the beggars you're better of offering them a hot meal from somewhere.
The answers you get will soon sort out any misguided ideals about helping these people you may find yourself burdened with.

This is true, because despite them not all being addicted to drugs/alcohol, most of em are However, that doesn't mean it's going to kill you or them to give the odd one a few bob - even if it is just in a selfish attempt to alleviate a guilty conciensce for being a well adjusted member of society. Hell giving is giving.

topper75

jim o doom wrote: »

and that means they arn't all heroin users as another poster suggested.... ....judging poor cnuts who have fallen to the roadside

Gee! I hope I don't just 'fall' out on the roadside! LOL - is that what you really think happened to them?

I contest that beggars in Irish towns are indeed all heroin users or alcholics. There are dole payments and shelters for those who are bone fide. A bone fide homeless individual does not need to beg. Poor people begging happens in Asia, Africa, and S. America. The ones begging here are addicts. What good are you really doing by throwing money in the paper cup apart from easing your own middle class guilt?

chillywilly

topper75 wrote: »

It's actually legal now.



OK apologies - I shouldn't have written in this tone. But I still feel strongly that giving money to beggars is wrong. We already supply welfare payments to people who are in a tough place. The beggars are spending this on heroin and then go begging for more. By giving money you are a/ supporting the drug trade and all the misery that entails b/ encouraging the begging behaviour. This is not India. It is a first world country and people out begging must not be responsible types if they can't make use of generous state support (your money and my money) to get back on their feet.

I agree, there are alot of heroin addicts on the streets and I dont want to feed an addiction, especially to a disgusting thing like that.

I think everyone makes instant judgements of someone just by looking at them. I do the same with homeless people to be honest. If I see a 25 year old man with his eyes barely open, very skinny, gaunt, and underweight who i think is clearly on heroin i dont give them money. I think most people can tell by looking at someone if they have fallen on hard times, or addicted to smack!

Yes, this is a 1st world country, this is why homelessness should be reduced.

Also you need a fixed address to claim benefits which is why it makes it very hard for the homeless to rebuild their lives

jim o doom

topper75 wrote: »

Gee! I hope I don't just 'fall' out on the roadside! LOL - is that what you really think happened to them?

I contest that beggars in Irish towns are indeed all heroin users or alcholics. There are dole payments and shelters for those who are bone fide. A bone fide homeless individual does not need to beg. Poor people begging happens in Asia, Africa, and S. America. The ones begging here are addicts. What good are you really doing by throwing money in the paper cup apart from easing your own middle class guilt?

You can contest all you want, but without EVIDENCE all you are doing is making another SWEEPING generalisation. And all charity is selfish ultimately, either immidiate releif from "middle class guilt" which I mentionned in my 2nd last post from this one or the abilitity to be happy in heavan (HAH) for devoting "this" life (as if we had any other). And really - who cares if the beggar goes and buys themself some booze - their life is going to be unhappy, and most likely have an untimely end - if they get their very few remaining jollies through substance abuse, why not facilitate them.

jim o doom

Another point RE income tax & what the Govt SHOULD be doing for the homeless; this is the government that more or less NOBODY on boards.ie (that I have seen so far anyway) trusts to be capable of even finding their ar$e with 2 hands, a map, several civial servants & an ar$e finding expert.. and yet when it comes to the homelss, suddenly the government is doing all they can to help these cnuts, because the government does what is right for all of us? don't they?

havana

Yes a number of homeless are drug or alcohol users. This thread is not the place to get into the difficulties of trying to get clean while living on the streets or in a hostel.

On the issue of giving money to those begging. Yes it will often be used to buy drugs. I for one would see that as a much better option than the alternatives they might otherwise consider.
fair play to the op!

chillywilly

chillywilly wrote: »

Anyway, he mostly sits outside this newsagents, not doing much. I came out of the newsagents and noticed a sign in the window of the shop where he usually sits. The sign said "dont give change to beggars please".:eek:

I was pretty f*cking annoyed at this sign. To be honest, im no Mother Teresa, sometimes I give money to the homeless, sometimes I dont, but IMO the shop has no right to tell people to give them money or not.

From your post, they said please. The shop didn't say "Don't you dare give money to beggars!!". Personally I find nothing wrong with such a sign, since beggars can be an inconvenience to a place of business especially during their more busy hours, and there are many potential customers who will go elsewhere rather than have to pass by the beggars to get in.

Maybe they had their reasons to put it up, but I dont think this was the solution and I found it very offensive.

I suppose it would have been better if they had the beggar arrested for being on their property, or for loitering. Or trumping up some other charge to get them away.... Nope. They just asked you not to give them change.

I wasnt in a very confronational mood, so i didnt go into the shop(feel i should have looking back) so I just took out a marker and scribbled over the sign. The shop assistant clearly saw me do this, but I wasnt too bothered.

Well, if they've bothered to put up a sign then clearly its an issue to the shop, and its likely that you defacing their property won't stop them from having it up there. But hey, I guess you can't go back and voice your opinion because you broke the law by destroying their sign.. Wonderful.

So in their eyes, some random yob came along and scribbled over one of their signs for no reason... awesome. :rolleyes:

I know that may seem stupid but it really pissed me off! I then went on my way, and on my way back the sign was gone!:rolleyes:

Yup. It was gone because some poor employee had in the back and was trying to erase your scribbles. Or maybe they decided they should make a new sign altogether. Maybe one that says "don't give change to beggars, please" and below that "The money taken to pay for this sign was taken from our monthly contribution to the local charity".

I wanted to see if people agreed with me, would you done things differently? Or did the shop have every right to put the sign up?

"rant over";)

I disagree completely with you, and believe the shop had the right.

its funny really. In your post you don't mention if you actually gave any money to the beggar. Did you or were you too busy being so righteous?

Actually, yes. The government should be putting more money into getting homeless people off the street.

I'm curious but where is the government going to get this extra money to do this? From what i gather our economy isn't exactly doing so well, and to be clear, all my life I've heard that the government should be putting more money into education, health care, welfare, infrastructure etc. Where would this money come from?

When our economy was booming Ireland didn't have enough money to fix all its problems. Hell, it didn't even come close. Get my drift? The government isn't in any real position to be offering more money to fix this. What Will you do to help fix the problem, or is this just a subject for abstract discussion?

Macha

Research has shown that for the majority of individuals, it is personal reasons that lead to homelessness (drug addiction, alcoholism, abuse at home, job loss, divorce) but that it is institutional factors that prevent individuals from leaving homelessness.

Ireland has one of the lowest levels of social welfare spending per capita in Europe (no doubt linked to our lower levels of taxation). There are over 44,000 families on waiting lists for social housing (multiply by 4 to get the number of individuals on average). Policies over the last 15 years have displayed a philosophy towards housing as a commodity, rather than as a human right. So more and more people are unable to enter the housing market - either as renters or buyers.

The attitudes of these businesses are shocking. Profits before people, it seems.

It may be a cliche but it's the measure of a society how it treats its young, elderly and infirm. We do not measure up well.

Davei141

jim o doom wrote: »

Whoa, sweeping generalisations and assumptions about me, you sure love to make judgements there, dontcha?

Yes i do. They are usually correct too. Which leafy part of dublin would you happen to reside in? Get many junkies or alco's around your area do we?

jim o doom wrote: »

Judgements also based on VERY little evidence.

jim o doom wrote: »

The OP mentionned a polite beggar, so clearly NOT intimidating - whatever experiences you have had with other beggars doesn't mean they are all the same,

OP finds a polite beggar and decides to get morally outraged. Show me a polite beggar and ill show you 10 strung out junkies, deal? Experience teaches you to be on your guard you dont have time to evaluate if they are salt of the earth or a junkie, treat em the same. If i see a bunch of travelers experience says get the hell out of there. I couldnt care less how nice they are. Thats life in the real world.

and that means they arn't all heroin users as another poster suggested.

Most are junkies or alco's. If their family wont help them on a freezing cold night you can be damn ****ing sure there is a reason for that.

Also, I train in town & am on the quays regulairily, and NO homeless person has ever intimidated me, in fact I am rarely even asked for change (perhaps due to having headphones on).

Pull the other one please, i walk up the quays a few times a week and there is always a groups of alco's or junkies about the place wanting their next fix or another can of druids. Must be great never getting asked for change or being intimidated by junkie scum. It's a bit like the people saying ah leave the travelers alone its only a minority who are scum, when to any sane person who lives near them or deals with them knows that's not the case. Live it then form an opinion.

Anyway, if it makes you feel better sitting (like me) in a nice warm room behind a PC judging poor cnuts who have fallen to the roadside, go ahead and judge judge judge - it just makes you look like an idiot - you based assumptions on me on a single post, i.e. ZERO evidence. nice.

I would have a guess that most of the people who have read that above quote probably laughed to themselves maybe even grinned. It's you who looks the idiot mate. "poor ***** who have fallen on the way side" Dear god. How many times have they let their family down for the family to turn their back on them? Feck load more than you've experienced the real world my friend.

Davei141

taconnol wrote: »

Research has shown that for the majority of individuals, it is personal reasons that lead to homelessness (drug addiction, alcoholism, abuse at home, job loss, divorce) but that it is institutional factors that prevent individuals from leaving homelessness.

Job loss leads to homelessness? Divorce? are we still talking about the same country?

Ireland has one of the lowest levels of social welfare spending per capita in Europe (no doubt linked to our lower levels of taxation). There are over 44,000 families on waiting lists for social housing (multiply by 4 to get the number of individuals on average). Policies over the last 15 years have displayed a philosophy towards housing as a commodity, rather than as a human right. So more and more people are unable to enter the housing market - either as renters or buyers.

See many families out on the streets do we? What a load of sensationalist nonsense.

The attitudes of these businesses are shocking. Profits before people, it seems.

It may be a cliche but it's the measure of a society how it treats its young, elderly and infirm. We do not measure up well.

You talk like these problems are irish only.

havana wrote:

On the issue of giving money to those begging. Yes it will often be used to buy drugs. I for one would see that as a much better option than the alternatives they might otherwise consider.
fair play to the op!

Give them money in case they decide to violently rob somebody? Brilliant. Yeah that's not intimidating. Sounds like appeasement, thats really going to fix the problem.

jim wrote:

Another point RE income tax & what the Govt SHOULD be doing for the homeless; this is the government that more or less NOBODY on boards.ie (that I have seen so far anyway) trusts to be capable of even finding their ar$e with 2 hands, a map, several civial servants & an ar$e finding expert.. and yet when it comes to the homelss, suddenly the government is doing all they can to help these cnuts, because the government does what is right for all of us? don't they?

Done much lately to help the homeless have we? What have you done lately?

jim wrote:

You can contest all you want, but without EVIDENCE all you are doing is making another SWEEPING generalisation.

If you could bet your nice house on it what would you say the majority are? Alco's and junkie's or just "poor sods who fell on the way side"?

And all charity is selfish ultimately, either immidiate releif from "middle class guilt" which I mentionned in my 2nd last post from this one or the abilitity to be happy in heavan (HAH) for devoting "this" life (as if we had any other).

You didn't challenge his assumption, you like to challenge the assumption's about beggars but wouldn't challenge the one above. A correct one maybe? Listen, it's easy preaching from the ivory tower. You are sheltered, your opinion isn't based on any kind of experience. Easy to rally for what you haven't experienced.

And really - who cares if the beggar goes and buys themself some booze - their life is going to be unhappy, and most likely have an untimely end - if they get their very few remaining jollies through substance abuse, why not facilitate them.

What a solution. Hooked on gear out on the streets everyone lining up to chuck some money into your gear box. Its like junkie heaven.

jim wrote:

This is true, because despite them not all being addicted to drugs/alcohol, most of em are However, that doesn't mean it's going to kill you or them to give the odd one a few bob - even if it is just in a selfish attempt to alleviate a guilty conciensce for being a well adjusted member of society. Hell giving is giving.

Well adjusted member of society? Is that what you are? Because you feel guilty about smack heads begging. Is that really the criteria to be a well adjusted member of society? Ever given the roma a few quid as well? The poor woman has a baby you must feel god awful guilty when you walk past them. Your not a well adjusted member of society mate, your just an easily manipulated member of society who when he gets a hard dose of the real world, wont be singing the same tune.

Macha

Davei141 wrote: »

Most are junkies or alco's. If their family wont help them on a freezing cold night you can be damn ****ing sure there is a reason for that.
times have they let their family down for the family to turn their back on them? Feck load more than you've experienced the real world my friend.

That's it? That's your reason for not helping homeless people? Because you make some insane assumptions like their relationship with their family??

And then if their family turns their back on them, so should the rest of society? What sort of warped logic is that? For a start, families don't have the same tools to help with addictions that social services do.

You're a bit too trigger-happy with the "naive" label.

Davei141

taconnol wrote: »

That's it? That's your reason for not helping homeless people? Because you make some insane assumptions like their relationship with their family??

Its one of the reasons. Do you really consider throwing a 2 euro coin helping? My point was you dont just happen to be homeless someday for no reason. You think its insane to think they must of really been ***** to get no help from their family? Not even a room? thats insane?

And then if their family turns their back on them, so should the rest of society? What sort of warped logic is that? For a start, families don't have the same tools to help with addictions that social services do.

If the family cant help your meaningless gesture in the form of a few coins to make yourself feel better most certainly wont. If they want to get help how on earth is you chipping in for their next fix going to help that? And you accuse me of warped logic?

You're a bit too trigger-happy with the "naive" label.

Maybe, but i think its justified.

Macha

Davei141 wrote: »

Its one of the reasons. Do you really consider throwing a 2 euro coin helping? My point was you dont just happen to be homeless someday for no reason. You think its insane to think they must of really been ***** to get no help from their family? Not even a room? thats insane?

You're assuming that
a) they have any family
b) the family are kind enough to want to help
c) the family feel that they can help
d) the family are actually able to help
e) the family aren't the reason they're homeless in the FIRST place

As I mentioned earlier many homeless people leave home because of bad situations, abuse, divorce, etc. You take one look at a person, make a whole raft of assumptions and in my book, that's called being prejudiced.

I also mentioned that research has shown that it is institutional factors that keep homeless people on the streets.

For me, it isn't the €2 that I give them that is the most important, part of it is acknowledging they exist and acknowledging that they are in need. The worst thing for a homeless person must be for someone to walk past and not even acknowledge their existence. I do also give to charities to support the homeless.

Davei141 wrote: »

Maybe, but i think its justified.

Unfortunately, I think you're displaying the most naitivite on here on the subject of homelessness. Taking a tough stance doesn't automatically mean that everyone else is naive.

havana

How many people on here have ever actually spoken to a homeless person or drug user. I'd imagine not too many. Hence the sweeping generalisations. I love the assumption that the 'polite' begger must not have been a 'junkie' because he was polite.

i meet polite 'junkies' every day of my life. And i meet 'scum' ones too. And i also meet polite and scum from every other walk of life in this city.

Whoever put down the 'and i'll show you 10 junkies' challenge i'll see you challenge and raise it. You show me 10 scum i'll show you 50 polite.

JohnGalt

chillywilly wrote: »

I came out of a newsagents in Rathmines yesterday. Anyone who knows Rathmines will know that theres always one or two homeless people around the Swan centre. I always see one in particular, i rememeber once he held open the door for me, i said thank you and i remember him saying "your welcome". The way he said "your welcome" was kind of an appreciative way of saying "thanks for acknowledging me".

Anyway, he mostly sits outside this newsagents, not doing much. I came out of the newsagents and noticed a sign in the window of the shop where he usually sits. The sign said "dont give change to beggars please".:eek:

I was pretty f*cking annoyed at this sign. To be honest, im no Mother Teresa, sometimes I give money to the homeless, sometimes I dont, but IMO the shop has no right to tell people to give them money or not. Maybe they had their reasons to put it up, but I dont think this was the solution and I found it very offensive.

I wasnt in a very confronational mood, so i didnt go into the shop(feel i should have looking back) so I just took out a marker and scribbled over the sign. The shop assistant clearly saw me do this, but I wasnt too bothered. I know that may seem stupid but it really pissed me off! I then went on my way, and on my way back the sign was gone!:rolleyes:

I wanted to see if people agreed with me, would you done things differently? Or did the shop have every right to put the sign up?

"rant over";)

Well I am glad you are no Mother Theresa to begin with anyway:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/hitchens_16_4.html

I can understand fully why a sign such as this would be in place. If I was a shop owner I certainly would not want homeless people congregating outside my front door, it is pretty obvious that this could discourage customers from entering my shop. Whether I would actually put one in place is a different question however, as I don't think it would have the desired effect and may in fact discourage others from entering the premises.

Zombrex

chillywilly wrote: »

Yes, this is a 1st world country, this is why homelessness should be reduced.

I heard a statistic a while back (from a social worker) that half of the homeless people in Dublin are addicts (alcohol or drugs) and the other half have mental health problems.

These unfortunately are the two groups that it is very difficult to help. The addicts won't go into programs that require that they stop using (though "wet" shelters, ones that allow drug use, are becoming more common), and those with mental health problems are just difficult to help in general.

I agree 100% with not giving money to beggers, if someone feels bad for them they should give the money to a charity that they know will spend the money wisely.

I also say I have to agree with the sign. I pass through the city centre every day to work and while the vast majority of homeless don't give any hassle beyond asking for money, some do try to block you and can get aggressive. People don't need to feel guilty about not giving money to beggers, as someone else said this isn't India, or even America. Very few people have no option but to be living on the street begging, they are there because of the issues I mentioned above and the way to help them is to give money to charities that know what they are doing and will spend the money trying to get them off the street and back to normal lives.

matrim

chillywilly wrote: »

I came out of a newsagents in Rathmines yesterday. Anyone who knows Rathmines will know that theres always one or two homeless people around the Swan centre. I always see one in particular, i rememeber once he held open the door for me, i said thank you and i remember him saying "your welcome". The way he said "your welcome" was kind of an appreciative way of saying "thanks for acknowledging me".

Anyway, he mostly sits outside this newsagents, not doing much. I came out of the newsagents and noticed a sign in the window of the shop where he usually sits. The sign said "dont give change to beggars please".:eek:

I was pretty f*cking annoyed at this sign. To be honest, im no Mother Teresa, sometimes I give money to the homeless, sometimes I dont, but IMO the shop has no right to tell people to give them money or not. Maybe they had their reasons to put it up, but I dont think this was the solution and I found it very offensive.

I wasnt in a very confronational mood, so i didnt go into the shop(feel i should have looking back) so I just took out a marker and scribbled over the sign. The shop assistant clearly saw me do this, but I wasnt too bothered. I know that may seem stupid but it really pissed me off! I then went on my way, and on my way back the sign was gone!:rolleyes:

I wanted to see if people agreed with me, would you done things differently? Or did the shop have every right to put the sign up?

"rant over";)

I haven't read the rest of the thread and this is a bit off topic, but if it's the guy I think it is that you are talking about, I once saw someone come out of the shop and offer him an unopened sandwich they had just bought for him.

He promptly told them to **** off that he didn't want a sandwich. Since then I never gave the guy any change (I used to once every couple of weeks), and because of that don't blame the shop for not wanting him outside.

Davei141

taconnol wrote: »

You're assuming that
a) they have any family
b) the family are kind enough to want to help
c) the family feel that they can help
d) the family are actually able to help
e) the family aren't the reason they're homeless in the FIRST place

Yeah im making assumptions, I don't want to get to know them all. Do you?

As I mentioned earlier many homeless people leave home because of bad situations, abuse, divorce, etc. You take one look at a person, make a whole raft of assumptions and in my book, that's called being prejudiced.

Divorce? Seriously stop adding things in for the sake of it. Yes im prejudice. Ever pre judge somebody? A gang of youths coming towards you? A traveler wanting to tarmac your drive? A bunch of roma? People prejudge all the time for their own safety.

I also mentioned that research has shown that it is institutional factors that keep homeless people on the streets.

Homelessness isn't an irish only issue. Blame whatever you want there will always be homeless.

For me, it isn't the €2 that I give them that is the most important, part of it is acknowledging they exist and acknowledging that they are in need. The worst thing for a homeless person must be for someone to walk past and not even acknowledge their existence. I do also give to charities to support the homeless.

Seriously, are you taking the piss. The whole point of not acknowledging them is that once you make eye contact they start asking. Same principle with chuggers, dont make eye contact and the chances of being hassled are less. Do you make eye contact and give money to all them or just the one to stop your guilt?

Unfortunately, I think you're displaying the most naitivite on here on the subject of homelessness. Taking a tough stance doesn't automatically mean that everyone else is naive.

Of course it doesn't. But when people have to put up with constant intimidation whether its someone sitting at an ATM or somebody sitting at a luas ticket machine, they tend not to be so apologetic. Or some junkie asked for a euro for the bus, "come on its only a ****in euro" You get me...

Davei141

havana wrote: »

How many people on here have ever actually spoken to a homeless person or drug user. I'd imagine not too many. Hence the sweeping generalisations. I love the assumption that the 'polite' begger must not have been a 'junkie' because he was polite.

Im sure he had great views on the recent pork scandal too.

i meet polite 'junkies' every day of my life. And i meet 'scum' ones too. And i also meet polite and scum from every other walk of life in this city.

The "polite" junkies are nice till you say you have no money or no smokes. Then see how nice they are, if you always give them money im sure they will even be your best friend...

Whoever put down the 'and i'll show you 10 junkies' challenge i'll see you challenge and raise it. You show me 10 scum i'll show you 50 polite.

A walk up the quays for me and you'll be spending a few weeks in town.

havana

All too often the reason people don't in into treatment is not a lack of desire to do so but the lack of places and other obstacles. There are approx 25 detox beds for all drug users and a waiting list that is months long for homeless drug users.

I walk the quays every day. I live and work on them. And i don't dispute there is aggressive beggers out there. I just don't hold with sweeping generalisations.

havana

Davei141 wrote: »

A walk up the quays for me and you'll be spending a few weeks in town.

Don't bet on it

Macha

Davei141 wrote: »

Yeah im making assumptions, I don't want to get to know them all. Do you?

Not knowing someone doesn't mean you have to make assumptions about them

Davei141 wrote: »

Divorce? Seriously stop adding things in for the sake of it. Yes im prejudice. Ever pre judge somebody? A gang of youths coming towards you? A traveler wanting to tarmac your drive? A bunch of roma? People prejudge all the time for their own safety.

Well at least you're admitting to it. Ooh a gang of "youths" walking in my direction...no I don't prejudge people. I don't walk around in fear for my safety and I don't put myself in silly situations but no I don't start hyperventilating when some kids walk past me.

Divorce: go educate yourself:

http://www.dubsimon.ie/publications/factsonhomeless.htm

Davei141 wrote: »

Homelessness isn't an irish only issue. Blame whatever you want there will always be homeless.

It's not about whether homeless people exist, it's how we deal with the situation. Not only is there a stigma attached to social or public housing, we have reduced the amount of public housing down from 33% in the 60s to 7%. We just don't provide the facilities necessary to help the homelesseness.

Davei141 wrote: »

Seriously, are you taking the piss. The whole point of not acknowledging them is that once you make eye contact they start asking. Same principle with chuggers, dont make eye contact and the chances of being hassled are less. Do you make eye contact and give money to all them or just the one to stop your guilt?

See the whole point is that I stop worrying about myself and my own already high levels of comfort for just ONE second. God yes, being asked for money - the trauma, the stress. God - why doesn't someone set up a charity for people who are stopped by chuggers?? Seriously - you need to wake up to the reality of the terrible conditions people live in and stop being so self-centred.

Davei141 wrote: »

Of course it doesn't. But when people have to put up with constant intimidation whether its someone sitting at an ATM or somebody sitting at a luas ticket machine, they tend not to be so apologetic. Or some junkie asked for a euro for the bus, "come on its only a ****in euro" You get me...

First off - if people are intimidated by a person sitting at an ATM, they need to go on a confidence course. In the grander scheme of things, having someone asking you for some change is not a terrible affliction compared to the other **** people get thrown at them in life. Get a bit of perspective.

taconnol, I'm curious since you seem to have access to stats and figures, but does the small change/small moneys that people might give on the street actually make much of a difference to homeless people? I can see that it might make the difference between having a meal or not, but does it help to move them off the streets?

(This is in no way a dig or such. I'm genuinely curious since I know very little about homeless people themselves or their situations)

havana

Deleted User wrote: »

taconnol, I'm curious since you seem to have access to stats and figures, but does the small change/small moneys that people might give on the street actually make much of a difference to homeless people? I can see that it might make the difference between having a meal or not, but does it help to move them off the streets?

(This is in no way a dig or such. I'm genuinely curious since I know very little about homeless people themselves or their situations)

a couple of coins in someones cup will tide them over for a while. A meal, a pack of smokes. Yeah maybe a drink or their drugs. It may help towards paying for a hostel for the night. But it won't provide any help for a long term solution. Of which they're aren't that many. And having a bed for the night is no solution to homelessness. Its just that a bed for a night. The next day you are back on the street. Hopefully you will have a bed the next night but for that day chances are you have nowhere to go. Most hostels don't allow you access to facilities during the day.

Macha

Deleted User wrote: »

taconnol, I'm curious since you seem to have access to stats and figures, but does the small change/small moneys that people might give on the street actually make much of a difference to homeless people? I can see that it might make the difference between having a meal or not, but does it help to move them off the streets?

(This is in no way a dig or such. I'm genuinely curious since I know very little about homeless people themselves or their situations)

Hi klaz, no worries. I don't have access to stats on that issue. As havana said, it will make a small difference and no doubt many of them spend it on alcohol and drugs.

The effort and investment has to be in support services not left up to the person on the street OR the endless charities in Ireland that pick up where our government social services leave off.

Davei141

taconnol wrote: »

Not knowing someone doesn't mean you have to make assumptions about them

Well my life goes on..

As havana said, it will make a small difference and no doubt many of them spend it on alcohol and drugs.

............................................................................

Well at least you're admitting to it. Ooh a gang of "youths" walking in my direction...no I don't prejudge people. I don't walk around in fear for my safety and I don't put myself in silly situations but no I don't start hyperventilating when some kids walk past me.

Look at you doing the assumptions now. Big bad fearless tacannol hailing from the mean streets of Terenure. Im not afraid to walk places but you think the same can be said for everyone? Why doesn't a woman accept a lift off a stranger? Why doesn't a kid? Are they silly situations? Funny how you slipped that one in. Is walking through a field at night with a gang of blokes at an entrance a silly situation? Or are you going to apply it some posh kids with curly hair walking towards you on grafton street. Whatever makes you happy.

I also like the way you equate being on your guard when a gang come near you to hyperventilating around kids. Show's what you know.

Divorce: go educate yourself:

http://www.dubsimon.ie/publications/factsonhomeless.htm

Last year people became homeless because of..

Relationship breakdown

The immediate cause of homelessness is often a relationship breakdown - irreconcilable personal differences, family violence, sexual abuse, rejection, or parents who are unable to care

Im convinced!

It's not about whether homeless people exist, it's how we deal with the situation. Not only is there a stigma attached to social or public housing, we have reduced the amount of public housing down from 33% in the 60s to 7%. We just don't provide the facilities necessary to help the homelesseness.

The best facilities homeless people need are rehab centres. Things to help the addictions is what i would be in favour of doing.

See the whole point is that I stop worrying about myself and my own already high levels of comfort for just ONE second. God yes, being asked for money - the trauma, the stress. God - why doesn't someone set up a charity for people who are stopped by chuggers?? Seriously - you need to wake up to the reality of the terrible conditions people live in and stop being so self-centred.

But you see why is it always people who have nothing better to do or nothing to deal with themselves that are the ones always preaching? Am i self centred? Yeah i am. When you have **** to deal with the homeless people will be the furthest thing from your mind. Its why the people who always protest are some curly haired gimps who has mammy and daddy to buy them everything they ever need from the age of 0. What do you do to help the homeless? Do you just preach to make yourself feel better? The 2 euro doesn't help them, if you want to help them a sandwich will go way further than you chipping in for drink or drugs.

First off - if people are intimidated by a person sitting at an ATM, they need to go on a confidence course. In the grander scheme of things, having someone asking you for some change is not a terrible affliction compared to the other **** people get thrown at them in life. Get a bit of perspective.

Well when taking out money i dont like some junkie sitting beside me asking for money. You think that wouldn't be intimidating for a woman or young small guy? You neglected to mention about the luas junkies, do you really want to say to people that they are not trying to intimidate people? Go ahead im sure there is many people who would like to jump in and tell you otherwise.

Being the hardman on the internet doesn't mean jack ****. You can waffle on about confidence courses and hyperventilating all you want about people who dont like that sort of **** and how you fear nothing blah blah. Doesn't make it so in the real world.

Macha

Davei141 wrote: »

............................................................................

There's a difference between deciding not to give money to the homeless and trying to get them out of your sight. The original post was not about whether to give money to them or not - it was about wanting them out of the way.

Davei141 wrote: »

Look at you doing the assumptions now. Big bad fearless tacannol hailing from the mean streets of Terenure. Im not afraid to walk places but you think the same can be said for everyone? Why doesn't a woman accept a lift off a stranger? Why doesn't a kid? Are they silly situations? Funny how you slipped that one in. Is walking through a field at night with a gang of blokes at an entrance a silly situation? Or are you going to apply it some posh kids with curly hair walking towards you on grafton street. Whatever makes you happy.

Funny. You don't know anything about me. I'm not from Terenure. Kindly stop the personal attacks - they're entirely unnecessary and show you in a very bad light

Davei141 wrote: »

I also like the way you equate being on your guard when a gang come near you to hyperventilating around kids. Show's what you know.

I like the way we're talking about homeless people and you start talking about gangs, women getting lifts from strangers!

Stop taking it off topic.

Davei141 wrote: »

Im convinced!

Well halle-frickin-lujah.

Davei141 wrote: »

But you see why is it always people who have nothing better to do or nothing to deal with themselves that are the ones always preaching? Am i self centred? Yeah i am. When you have **** to deal with the homeless people will be the furthest thing from your mind. Its why the people who always protest are some curly haired gimps who has mammy and daddy to buy them everything they ever need from the age of 0. What do you do to help the homeless? Do you just preach to make yourself feel better? The 2 euro doesn't help them, if you want to help them a sandwich will go way further than you chipping in for drink or drugs.

What the hell does this discussion have to do with preaching? God, I really can't STAND this - people goes all whiney and starts talking about "preachiness" as soon as you mention helping someone else/the environment/insert cause here.

It's a sad, thin argument - and totally off-topic - again.

Davei141 wrote: »

Well when taking out money i dont like some junkie sitting beside me asking for money. You think that wouldn't be intimidating for a woman or young small guy? You neglected to mention about the luas junkies, do you really want to say to people that they are not trying to intimidate people? Go ahead im sure there is many people who would like to jump in and tell you otherwise.

I AM a woman and it doesn't intimidate me.

This culture of fear that's perpetuated through the media is just ridiculous. Be afraid of the germs in your kitchen! Bird-flu will kill us all! Violent hooded teenagers on the rampage!

The viral emails that are sent around to "help and inform" women are just ridiculous - apparently we should all lock ourselves at home with 10 shotguns in case the bogeyman gets us.

The Chessplayer

Davei141 wrote: »

Being the hardman on the internet doesn't mean jack ****. You can waffle on about confidence courses and hyperventilating all you want about people who dont like that sort of **** and how you fear nothing blah blah. Doesn't make it so in the real world.

That's what makes boards such a popular outlet to vent one's spleen. Any random bottom-feeder can be instantly transformed into an internet-rambo. And what harm in it?

AARRRGH

chillywilly wrote: »

Yes, this is a 1st world country, this is why homelessness should be reduced.

Also you need a fixed address to claim benefits which is why it makes it very hard for the homeless to rebuild their lives

Most homeless people don't want to "rebuild their lives". They are mentally ill and need psychological help. Giving them money or an address isn't going to solve their problems.

Macha

AARRRGH wrote: »

Most homeless people don't want to "rebuild their lives". They are mentally ill and need psychological help. Giving them money or an address isn't going to solve their problems.

Not all homeless people have mental health problems but indeed, a higher percentage do have mental health issues, as well as other health problems, than the general population

48% reported concerns regarding their psychiatric health

http://www.simon.ie/index.php?page=health-and-homelessness

Davei141

taconnol wrote: »

There's a difference between deciding not to give money to the homeless and trying to get them out of your sight. The original post was not about whether to give money to them or not - it was about wanting them out of the way.

What have you done?

Funny. You don't know anything about me. I'm not from Terenure. Kindly stop the personal attacks - they're entirely unnecessary and show you in a very bad light

Your the one who started going on about hyperventilating and people needing confidence courses. Im saying you wouldn't be so smug if you had to deal with stuff that people who come across that sort of stuff daily has to. Your trivialising the intimidation factor shows your full of bollocks.

I like the way we're talking about homeless people and you start talking about gangs, women getting lifts from strangers!

Stop taking it off topic.

You brought up prejudice. Don't bring it up if your going to conveniently sidestep the question.

What the hell does this discussion have to do with preaching? God, I really can't STAND this - people goes all whiney and starts talking about "preachiness" as soon as you mention helping someone else/the environment/insert cause here.

It's a sad, thin argument - and totally off-topic - again.

What have you done to help?

I AM a woman and it doesn't intimidate me.

This culture of fear that's perpetuated through the media is just ridiculous. Be afraid of the germs in your kitchen! Bird-flu will kill us all! Violent hooded teenagers on the rampage!

Ever get your head kicked in walking down the road? Ever been robbed at knifepoint by a junkie? Or a brick ****ed at your head by "the kids"? It's easy to be fearless on the internet. It's also easy to be fearless when you dont come across this stuff. If you did you wouldn't try to take the piss. Trying to equate a "culture of fear" aka a myth to things people from working class area's deal with a lot of the time just devalues your opinion.

The viral emails that are sent around to "help and inform" women are just ridiculous - apparently we should all lock ourselves at home with 10 shotguns in case the bogeyman gets us.

Err ok.

havana

AARRRGH wrote: »

Giving them money or an address isn't going to solve their problems.

this is actually true. Its a much more long term process than this.


i know one guy who was years waiting for a flat. By the time he got it his health was so poor he was dead within a couple of days. Another mam was homeless for 30 years. He got a flat and within a week was back in the hostel. He just couldn't cope living on his own.

we are talking about people here. Individuals with stories. And often amazing and harrowing stories. Yes many are substance users but research shows that homelessness adds to drug and alcohol use. It surely doesn't take a genius to work out why that might be. And for those who do want to stop its really difficult to do so when living on the streets. If only it were as easy as getting a place in 'rehab'

CDfm

beggars a few years back were very intimidating - intimidation as part of a car space racket.

tbh - small money yes - but also intimidating

Macha

Davei141 wrote: »

What have you done?

What do you mean?

Davei141 wrote: »

Your the one who started going on about hyperventilating and people needing confidence courses. Im saying you wouldn't be so smug if you had to deal with stuff that people who come across that sort of stuff daily has to. Your trivialising the intimidation factor shows your full of bollocks.

So because I don't agree with your opinion that homeless people are intimidating I am therefore full of bollocks? Do you think that of everyone who doesn't agree with all your opinions?

I have lived in 3rd world countries where we had rottweilers & doberman guarding the house, electric gates, armed guards protecting our house when my dad went away on business. I have been in the car when tribal fights with bush knives flying are going on nearby. I have been followed by men late at night, who were threatening me verbally and have had other nasty experiences.

So don't assume that I have lived a sheltered life. I choose to take the necessary precautions, did a self-defense course, and do not live my life in fear of homeless people.

Davei141 wrote: »

What have you done to help?

I give monthly donations a homeless charity, as well as other charities that deal with environmental and international development issues. I have gone back to university to do an MSc in the area of development and will hopefully get a job in the development sector.

Davei141 wrote: »

Ever get your head kicked in walking down the road? Ever been robbed at knifepoint by a junkie? Or a brick ****ed at your head by "the kids"? It's easy to be fearless on the internet. It's also easy to be fearless when you dont come across this stuff. If you did you wouldn't try to take the piss. Trying to equate a "culture of fear" aka a myth to things people from working class area's deal with a lot of the time just devalues your opinion.

As mentioned above, I have lived in countries that are nearly lawless and yes I have had nasty personal experiences.

There's a difference between acknowledging that this stuff happens and assuming that all homeless people are assholes.

Davei141 wrote: »

Err ok.

Not following? I'm talking about the culture of fear in the media. Women in particular are encouraged to live in fear of the next mugger/rapist/axe murderer around the corner. I don't let that crap take over.

Even if people are intimidated by homeless people, does that mean that they should be removed? In the UK, many teenagers are practically treated like criminals and are given dispersal orders even though they're doing nothing wrong and are just hanging around.

havana

I don't think anyone is disputing that there are aggressive intimidating beggers. I'm certainly not anyway. What i will always dispute are the sweeping generalisations that all are or that all 'junkie scum' ones are.

I'll probably always go thru life with the tag 'bleeding hearted liberal' and i'm find with that. I'll wear it with pride. I'd much rather that than go thru life full of prejudice hatred and fear.

Davei141

taconnol wrote: »

What do you mean?

To help, its been answered below.

So because I don't agree with your opinion that homeless people are intimidating I am therefore full of bollocks? Do you think that of everyone who doesn't agree with all your opinions?

No but if your going to trivialise intimidation and try to mock it you are full of bollocks.

I have lived in 3rd world countries where we had rottweilers & doberman guarding the house, electric gates, armed guards protecting our house when my dad went away on business. I have been in the car when tribal fights with bush knives flying are going on nearby. I have been followed by men late at night, who were threatening me verbally and have had other nasty experiences.


So don't assume that I have lived a sheltered life. I choose to take the necessary precautions, did a self-defense course, and do not live my life in fear of homeless people.

Yet you mock people who get intimidated? Looks like in the 3rd world country you had plenty of protection. And the fact you done self defense courses to protect yourself shows you are on guard. So why mock people who dont have training? Who cant defend themselves?

I give monthly donations a homeless charity, as well as other charities that deal with environmental and international development issues. I have gone back to university to do an MSc in the area of development and will hopefully get a job in the development sector.

Fair play.

As mentioned above, I have lived in countries that are nearly lawless and yes I have had nasty personal experiences.

You wouldn't have survived without protection and without being extremely wary, would you agree with that? I'd say you received plenty of advice too about what places not to go and what to do to avoid any trouble for yourself.

There's a difference between acknowledging that this stuff happens and assuming that all homeless people are assholes.

Of course there is. I just dont want to find out if it they are an arsehole or a nice person. Because when they ask for money and you acknowledge them by saying sorry i dont have any change, they go ah go on just a euro etc. Some of them get quite pissed off at that point. I dont want to put up with that.

Not following? I'm talking about the culture of fear in the media. Women in particular are encouraged to live in fear of the next mugger/rapist/axe murderer around the corner. I don't let that crap take over.

Oh without a doubt i agree completely. Scaremongering is bad, but the other extreme is as bad, that everywhere is safe. People tend to be fearful due to experiences. They dont want that happening again so if that means avoiding an ATM or a luas ticket machine so be it. Ditto for walking through that dark lane at night even though its a short cut. You took self defense courses, you didnt take them for no reason.

Even if people are intimidated by homeless people, does that mean that they should be removed? In the UK, many teenagers are practically treated like criminals and are given dispersal orders even though they're doing nothing wrong and are just hanging around.

Well the shop wants to get as much business as it can, why would it want them their if they were intimidating customers?

Just hanging around doing nothing and getting dispersal orders? na

Macha

OK it boils down to this. Some people are intimidated by homeless people and I understand the point of view of the business - I just don't agree.

Is this fear or intimidation well-founded? Are stats available on attacks/violence by homeless people? Relying on various media reports or impressions from the media is not very reliable. Now I would suspect that much of the fear of homeless people is unfounded but to be honest, I don't have any stats.

Just on the kids being dispersed for doing nothing - there are huge problems in the UK with teenagers being treated as criminals. Remember those buzzing machines outside shops that only younger people can hear? It's symptomatic of an attitude that tars all of them with the same brush - something that seems to happen with homeless people as well.

Check out this link. The police just have to think that they MIGHT intimidate someone - they don't even have to do anything!:

http://www.gethampshire.co.uk/news/s/2031014_dispersal_order_to_target_teenagers

Because if the sense of intimidation is unfounded, then it isn't fair that homeless people be forced to move on or move away from shops - the problem isn't on their side, it's on the side of the people with the irrational fear. And by irrational I mean: are these people more likely to be attacked by that homeless person than they are by another group in society? More likely, I think its that people feel embarrassed and uncomfortable but these still are not reasons to push homeless people out of sight and out of mind (because that's really what they're aiming for)

CDfm

taconnol wrote: »

What do you mean?

I have lived in 3rd world countries where we had rottweilers & doberman guarding the house, electric gates, armed guards protecting our house when my dad went away on business. I have been in the car when tribal fights with bush knives flying are going on nearby. I have been followed by men late at night, who were threatening me verbally and have had other nasty experiences.

So don't assume that I have lived a sheltered life.

I for one dont think its fair to demonise Limerick in this way.

InFront

Well done OP for scribbling out the sign. I know the shop you're talking about but I haven't seen the sign personally. What a disgraceful thing to put up, and particularly in the middle of Winter, at Christmas.

Sometimes I give money to beggars, usually I don't. As somebody else said, it's better to give the money to The Simon Community.

I have to say I find this issue of being scared of the homeless bizzarely funny. I walk from Rathgar to town every morning and back again that evening. I'd say I pass an average of five or six people begging along the route. Never once in doing this, or never once in my time in Dublin, have I ever been remotely intimidated by one of them. What I have found intimidating, at times, have been affluent, intoxicated, housed, and violent yobs out for a night, or coming to where I work in a Dublin hospital after a night of excessive drinking, or drug abuse.

The new laws on begging are, in theory, quite fine. Aggressive begging is not acceptable. However, there are Gardai who target beggars who are not acting aggressively, and I find that really hard to understand. I would love to live in an Ireland where our biggest social problem was the ordeal of witnessing somebody begging on the side of the street.

On a related issue, the state homeless services in this country are incredibly backwards. I believe there are in the region of 1,000 people employed by the state with responsibility for the state's estimated 2,000 homeless people.