Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

26000 Elephants · 17-10-2019 10:22pm

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Things seem to change by the hour, but Jamie Bryson is in meltdown on twitter so I can only presume things are moving in a positive direction

The loyalist fella who thinks the Munster flag has a balaclava on it?

The knob.

SeaBreezes · 17-10-2019 10:53pm

If Brexit comes to a close, I'm going to miss the idiots getting roasted on James O'Brien....

'You made an absolute underpants of yourself on national radio'

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H9EoTrQY5r0

Danzy · 17-10-2019 11:49pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I dont think it will get past the commons, UK will leave on 31st on wto terms. Surrender/Benn act not worth the paper its printed on. UK will prosper in a couple of years then more will follow. Bye bye EU

*commons may ratify, either way, they are leaving on 31st. Democracy has prevailed. This is what decent leadership is about. Teresa May was too weak

There is more chance of Britain joining the Euro on October 31st than a No Deal on WTO rules.

Significantly more chance.

17-10-2019 11:59pm

FutureTeashock wrote: »

NI shall remain a firm and cherished member of the United Kingdom.

Its not cherished though is it. The message from Britain is loud and embarrassingly clear. NI is not a big concern for them. They'd be shot of it in the morning.

_Whimsical_ · 18-10-2019 12:17am

There was a strange piece on TV3 news at 12 today, did anyone else see it?

Their NI correspondant did a piece live from the North and said that according to his sources the DUP had been briefing loyalist paramilitaries on Brexit negotiations this week. Apparently these paramilitaries were extremely displeased with the briefing of recent days and had threatened to "protest in the way they do" if things were to move ahead in this fashion. It's at around 13 mins into the broadcast of 12 o clock thursday morning and is on their player.

Now, I wouldn't normally look to TV3 for news but surely they aren't actually making it up.
If there's any truth in it are we to believe that the longterm fate of Ireland and the EU single markets relationship with the UK now lies with votes of people informed by the wishes of paramilitaries?
This is now built into a legally binding agreement. It's quite bizarre.

The high horse brigade · 18-10-2019 12:48am

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

There was a strange piece on TV3 news at 12 today, did anyone else see it?

Their NI correspondant did a piece live from the North and said that according to his sources the DUP had been briefing loyalist paramilitaries on Brexit negotiations this week. Apparently these paramilitaries were extremely displeased with the briefing recent days and had threatened to "protest in the way they do" if things were to move ahead in this fashion. It's at around 13 mins into the broadcast of thursday morning at 12 and is on their player.

Now, I wouldn't normally look to TV3 for news but surely they aren't actually making it up.
If there's any truth in it are we to believe that the longterm fate of Ireland and the EU single markets relationship with the UK now lies with votes of people informed by the wishes of paramilitaries?
This is now built into a legally binding agreement. It's quite bizarre.

Yes I also read that elsewhere, was reported. The DUP are such a despicable shower they sought advise on the situation from the people they represent, not the local farmers and businesses but the paramilitaries. Hopefully they'll be obliterated at the ballot box next time

Donnielighto · 18-10-2019 2:51am

FutureTeashock wrote: »

We'll see what you say when the glorious EU harmonises the corporate tax rate EU wide. I'm screenshoting this for the occasion.

That would be great, competing for businesses using tax breaks is a race to the bottom. No difference in tax, no arbitrage and you attract investment based on infrastructure and people.

Padre_Pio · 18-10-2019 3:11am

Donnielighto wrote: »

That would be great, competing for businesses using tax breaks is a race to the bottom. No difference in tax, no arbitrage and you attract investment based on infrastructure and people.

We're f*cked so...

Dytalus · 18-10-2019 9:57am

Donnielighto wrote: »

That would be great, competing for businesses using tax breaks is a race to the bottom. No difference in tax, no arbitrage and you attract investment based on infrastructure and people.

Except the tax harmonisation coming in from the EU will not effect tax rates. The EU has no legal competence over member state tax rates, and cannot force us to change ours.

The EU is seeking to change where that tax gets charged, based on where a company has the majority of its assets and employees. It's a bit more complicated than "change your tax rates", and is still a danger to a sizable chunk of our tax intake, but we'll get to keep our low corporate tax as a lure to larger companies.

First Up · 18-10-2019 10:03am

Dytalus wrote: »

Except the tax harmonisation coming in from the EU will not effect tax rates. The EU has no legal competence over member state tax rates, and cannot force us to change ours.

The EU is seeking to change where that tax gets charged, based on where a company has the majority of its assets and employees. It's a bit more complicated than "change your tax rates", and is still a danger to a sizable chunk of our tax intake, but we'll get to keep our low corporate tax as a lure to larger companies.

A "lure" that is overstated. FDI comes to Ireland to access markets, a productive environment and skills. Tax is a competitive factor in all FDI decisions but by no means the decisive one.

The EU, OECD and others are quite rightly looking to close loopholes that allow global companies to manipulate different tax regimes to their advantage. That might cost Ireland some (unearned) tax revenue but it will have negligible impact on the inflow of FDI.

marieholmfan · 18-10-2019 10:25am

First Up wrote: »

A "lure" that is overstated. FDI comes to Ireland to access markets, a productive environment and skills. Tax is a competitive factor in all FDI decisions but by no means the decisive one.

The EU, OECD and others are quite rightly looking to close loopholes that allow global companies to manipulate different tax regimes to their advantage. That might cost Ireland some (unearned) tax revenue but it will have negligible impact on the inflow of FDI.

Ha Ha Ha! Great Joke First Up.

You should write for Callan's Kicks!

ancapailldorcha · 18-10-2019 10:26am

Dytalus · 18-10-2019 10:31am

First Up wrote: »

A "lure" that is overstated. FDI comes to Ireland to access markets, a productive environment and skills. Tax is a competitive factor in all FDI decisions but by no means the decisive one.

The EU, OECD and others are quite rightly looking to close loopholes that allow global companies to manipulate different tax regimes to their advantage. That might cost Ireland some (unearned) tax revenue but it will have negligible impact on the inflow of FDI.

I don't disagree. I think it might be slightly more than "negligible", but still not a lot. Land (and therefore infrastructure investment) in prime areas is expensive in Ireland, and plenty of parts of the EU speak English to our level (hello to the Dutch). Low tax is one of the things we have over them. But we still have our legislation in English, and we're a well educated population. Plenty of draw there.

I've also long been saying our tax revenue is overly reliant on a few large multinationals. If tax harmonisation forces us into broadening our tax sources instead of relying on a tiny number of very rich companies, it'll be better in the long term.

But, that's a topic for another thread. Not a Brexit one.

First Up · 18-10-2019 10:31am

marieholmfan wrote:

Ha Ha Ha! Great Joke First Up.

You should write for Callan's Kicks!

You are welcome to present a counter argument. Should I wait?

First Up · 18-10-2019 10:44am

Dytalus wrote:

I don't disagree. I think it might be slightly more than "negligible", but still not a lot. Land (and therefore infrastructure investment) in prime areas is expensive in Ireland, and plenty of parts of the EU speak English to our level (hello to the Dutch). Low tax is one of the things we have over them. But we still have our legislation in English, and we're a well educated population. Plenty of draw there.

I've also long been saying our tax revenue is overly reliant on a few large multinationals. If tax harmonisation forces us into broadening our tax sources instead of relying on a tiny number of very rich companies, it'll be better in the long term.

Yes, a more balanced tax take has long been recognised as desirable and we are in a highly competitive FDI market.

Its a complex business, especially in high knowledge based industries and we have built excellent infrastructure in R&D, supply chains and of course integration with and across Europe. Our share of mobile FDI shows that we know what we are doing.

Tax is in there but people who don't know much about international business have a very simplistic impression of its role.

downcow · 18-10-2019 10:46am

This seems like a complete mess. Could someone tell me if I by a bag of potatoes (or submit 'new tv' etc for potatoes) in Scotland to eat in NI will i pay tariffs?

FrancieBrady · 18-10-2019 10:59am

downcow wrote: »

This seems like a complete mess. Could someone tell me if I by a bag of potatoes (or submit 'new tv' etc for potatoes) in Scotland to eat in NI will i pay tariffs?

No, goods you transit for personal use are not tarriffed as far as I understand.

How does it feel to be a northern Ireland Unionist today downcow? Genuine question.

Imreoir2 · 18-10-2019 11:12am

FutureTeashock wrote: »

We'll see what you say when the glorious EU harmonises the corporate tax rate EU wide. I'm screenshoting this for the occasion.

The glorious EU can only do this if glorious Ireland and all her gallent allies in Europe agree to it. But of course you know that and are in no way trying to spread falshoods about what the EU can do in terms of taxation.

knipex · 18-10-2019 11:22am

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

There was a strange piece on TV3 news at 12 today, did anyone else see it?

Their NI correspondant did a piece live from the North and said that according to his sources the DUP had been briefing loyalist paramilitaries on Brexit negotiations this week. Apparently these paramilitaries were extremely displeased with the briefing of recent days and had threatened to "protest in the way they do" if things were to move ahead in this fashion. It's at around 13 mins into the broadcast of 12 o clock thursday morning and is on their player.

Now, I wouldn't normally look to TV3 for news but surely they aren't actually making it up.
If there's any truth in it are we to believe that the longterm fate of Ireland and the EU single markets relationship with the UK now lies with votes of people informed by the wishes of paramilitaries?
This is now built into a legally binding agreement. It's quite bizarre.

Err

You do know who Sinn Fein are ????

26000 Elephants · 18-10-2019 11:34am

knipex wrote: »

Err

You do know who Sinn Fein are ????

Whataboutery aside, were they mentioned in the piece? As far as I'm aware, Sinn Fein have been vocal in their support for the GFA when the DUP were only too willing to tear it up in support of a border. Now that they are facing being cut loose from the union, the DUP are clutching at it like a drowning man clutches a life ring.

Danzy · 18-10-2019 12:46pm

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

There was a strange piece on TV3 news at 12 today, did anyone else see it?

Their NI correspondant did a piece live from the North and said that according to his sources the DUP had been briefing loyalist paramilitaries on Brexit negotiations this week. Apparently these paramilitaries were extremely displeased with the briefing of recent days and had threatened to "protest in the way they do" if things were to move ahead in this fashion. It's at around 13 mins into the broadcast of 12 o clock thursday morning and is on their player.

Now, I wouldn't normally look to TV3 for news but surely they aren't actually making it up.
If there's any truth in it are we to believe that the longterm fate of Ireland and the EU single markets relationship with the UK now lies with votes of people informed by the wishes of paramilitaries?
This is now built into a legally binding agreement. It's quite bizarre.

Loyalist paramilitaries will not act without their handlers saying so.

That chain goes right to the top, some low level may react but it will be career ending for the security agent or police handler and life ending for the loyalist who'll be taken out in a "feud".

Danzy · 18-10-2019 12:49pm

Labour will get punished severely if they block this, provided the Tories make a good stab of unity.

The DUP are burning bridges in London at a furious rate and that is just among their past supporters there.

Hard to underestimate the anger in Britain towards them.

knipex · 18-10-2019 1:06pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Whataboutery aside, were they mentioned in the piece? As far as I'm aware, Sinn Fein have been vocal in their support for the GFA when the DUP were only too willing to tear it up in support of a border. Now that they are facing being cut loose from the union, the DUP are clutching at it like a drowning man clutches a life ring.

F**K the whataboutery..

Its outright hypocrisy to condemn the DUP for links to paramilitaries when all we have been listening to for the last 3 years is that a hard Border will result in attacks from republican terrorists.

If I have learnt anything from the whole Brexit Debacle its that it will be a long long long time before I (In the republic) would even consider voting for a united Ireland.

I have friends in the North, good decent honest hardworking people who just want to get on with their lives but large parts of Northern Ireland is a sectarian cesspit that appears to be stuck on the worst years of the 1970's and 80's

I see them, willingly or not, getting independence from the UK but I see them an an independent country, probably within the EU for at least a decade prior to any unification. They need to repair their political, social system and
economic system first. The DUP and Sinn Fein are two sides of the same coin equally despicable, equally embarrassing and equally a cancer to the north.

maccored · 18-10-2019 1:12pm

the chances of the loyalists managing to tie their shoelaces even with out help from the british government and army is pretty slim

FrancieBrady · 18-10-2019 1:16pm

knipex wrote: »

F**K the whataboutery..

Its outright hypocrisy to condemn the DUP for links to paramilitaries when all we have been listening to for the last 3 years is that a hard Border will result in attacks from republican terrorists.

If I have learnt anything from the whole Brexit Debacle its that it will be a long long long time before I (In the republic) would even consider voting for a united Ireland.

I have friends in the North, good decent honest hardworking people who just want to get on with their lives but large parts of Northern Ireland is a sectarian cesspit that appears to be stuck on the worst years of the 1970's and 80's

I see them, willingly or not, getting independence from the UK but I see them an an independent country, probably within the EU for at least a decade prior to any unification. They need to repair their political, social system and
economic system first. The DUP and Sinn Fein are two sides of the same coin equally despicable, equally embarrassing and equally a cancer to the north.

Did the Brexit Debacle not also teach you that it isn't a place that is separate or can ever be 'Independent' of us?

What happens there will always have a profound effect on us.
Did the antics of the Irish Government not convince you of that?

Dytalus · 18-10-2019 1:19pm

knipex wrote: »

F**K the whataboutery..

Its outright hypocrisy to condemn the DUP for links to paramilitaries when all we have been listening to for the last 3 years is that a hard Border will result in attacks from republican terrorists.

Except for the part where it's not hypocrisy at all because they're totally incomparable topics of conversation.

The commentary on republican terrorism returning was all warnings. From the PSNI, from people familiar with the situation, from politicians on both sides of the divide. The very people who wrote the GFA have warned it as a possibility in the event of a hard border. It wasn't politicians engaging with the IRA, it was experts predicting the IRA's actions.

You also won't find anyone saying they'd be right to do so. I've certainly not seen any of our politicians or anyone on Boards cheer the potential on. Merely recognise that it's a likely risk and is a reason why we have to fight to prevent a hard border.

It's not at all comparable to the DUP actively engaging in talks with paramilitary organisations. If Fine Gael had been caught engaging with the New IRA (or whatever iteration of the IRA we're on to now) they'd be just as lambasted, and rightfully so.

I don't disagree with there being huge problems in NI that must be addressed, starting with the major parties and their entire political system being practically built to maintain the Unionist/Nationalist divide. But let's not start trying to whitewash what the DUP have done as anything but disgusting. It's entirely possible to point out their reprehensible behaviour without pointing wildly in some other direction saying "b-b-b-but Sinn Féin". SF are awful, and there's plenty to talk about along those lines, but they're not relevant here.

Kermit.de.frog · 18-10-2019 1:55pm

https://twitter.com/brendanjharkin/status/1184877159606816768

maccored · 18-10-2019 2:08pm

people arent being forced to vote along the sectarian divide - its a reflection on how they feel that makes them vote either DUP or SF. the fact that politics are on a sectarian footing reflects that the environment in the north is still very sectarian.

downcow · 18-10-2019 3:10pm

Dytalus wrote: »

Except for the part where it's not hypocrisy at all because they're totally incomparable topics of conversation.

The commentary on republican terrorism returning was all warnings. From the PSNI, from people familiar with the situation, from politicians on both sides of the divide. The very people who wrote the GFA have warned it as a possibility in the event of a hard border. It wasn't politicians engaging with the IRA, it was experts predicting the IRA's actions.

You also won't find anyone saying they'd be right to do so. I've certainly not seen any of our politicians or anyone on Boards cheer the potential on. Merely recognise that it's a likely risk and is a reason why we have to fight to prevent a hard border.

It's not at all comparable to the DUP actively engaging in talks with paramilitary organisations. If Fine Gael had been caught engaging with the New IRA (or whatever iteration of the IRA we're on to now) they'd be just as lambasted, and rightfully so.

I don't disagree with there being huge problems in NI that must be addressed, starting with the major parties and their entire political system being practically built to maintain the Unionist/Nationalist divide. But let's not start trying to whitewash what the DUP have done as anything but disgusting. It's entirely possible to point out their reprehensible behaviour without pointing wildly in some other direction saying "b-b-b-but Sinn Féin". SF are awful, and there's plenty to talk about along those lines, but they're not relevant here.

can you show me where politicians from both sides of the community said a border would restart the war/conflict? - it was nationalist leaders manipulating the EU
can you show me where unioinist politicians were saying loyalists would be right to go back to war or cheering them on?
Youre last point about DUP talking to paramilitaries is laughable, since the biggest nationalist party up here is riddled with convicted paramilitaries and the second biggest nationalist party up here has talked for years to paramilitaries while still fully engaged in the war - thats how they brought about peace process

Dytalus · 18-10-2019 4:06pm

downcow wrote: »

can you show me where politicians from both sides of the community said a border would restart the war/conflict? - it was nationalist leaders manipulating the EU

My bad, I forgot the term "both sides" would be ambiguous when discussing Brexit and NI.

I meant with regards to British and Irish/EU politicians. Not nationalist and unionist politicians. If you would still like examples of British politicians discussing the potential for violence, I can happily find you some.

downcow wrote: »

can you show me where unioinist politicians were saying loyalists would be right to go back to war or cheering them on?

I never claimed they were. They're not, the same as nationalist politicians are not either. I'm sure some dirtbag individuals on both sides are just fine with proposing violence, but I've not seen a politician on either side the NI divide be stupid enough to say "Get at 'em lads". My point was in response to the comment of knipex's which implied that being cautious of potential violence was the same as actually talking and engaging with the potential perpetrators of that violence.

I'm sorry if I implied that I've seen Unionist voices cheering on or calling for unionist terrorist actions. I never intended to, because I haven't seen it. Most unionists I see are just as concerned with the harm Brexit will do NI as nationalists or non-aligned.

Youre last point about DUP talking to paramilitaries is laughable, since the biggest nationalist party up here is riddled with convicted paramilitaries and the second biggest nationalist party up here has talked for years to paramilitaries while still fully engaged in the war - thats how they brought about peace process

Yet again, you decide to instead say "b-b-b-but Sinn Féin". I don't like SF. I don't trust them. And of course they engaged in discussions with the paramilitaries during war. It's called peace talks. Good lord man, the alternative was endless warfare until one side was extinct. How long do you think that would have taken? How many lives would it have cost? You don't make peace with your friends, and you don't make peace with violence.

But the DUP is constantly saying they're looking after the interests of Northern Ireland in Brexit but are not engaging in talks with business leaders, communities, or farmers. They're engaging with thugs and terrorists. Were the pro-Remain side actively speaking to IRA thugs when getting their pro-Remain back up, I'd be just as incensed.

Brexit is a political, economic, and diplomatic debacle. Terrorist organisations should not be given any voice in it. The threat of IRA violence (and, for that matter, unionist violence - though I'd put more money on the IRA starting it if a hard border went up) is a very real one, that everyone familiar with the Troubles recognises as a distinct possibility. Being aware of that and trying to prevent it as best as one can is not the same as, is not even comparable to,actually giving them a part in Brexit negotiations.

Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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