Fueling for 26.2 miles....

Enduro · 04-11-2016 6:58pm

mossym wrote: »

Some week to be linking noakes!!!

Is this what you're making reference to (I hadn't actually come accross this until now)?

Really bad mistake there, no matter what your opinion on the trial subject matter itself.

Kurt.Godel · 04-11-2016 7:27pm

This isn't quite on-topic, but I just want to give a word of caution to anyone considering a LCHF diet (coming from a non-endurance Sprint/Oly perspective, mind). I tried it for 6 months, in large part because of what I read on online sports fora and trusting Noakes. Got bloodwork done after; my cholesterol had gone through the roof. Doc was very concerned, was shocked at my diet, and prescribed statins. I didn't take them, instead moved to a low fat diet (greens, brown carbs, fish) and within 3 months my cholesterol has gone back towards normal levels. I'd treat LCHF with scepticism.

Edit- may as well give my 2c on fueling for a marathon... whatever works in training will work on race day. Train yourself for gels, no gels, bacon sandwiches; whatever works for you in long runs. But if you have a disappointing marathon because of nutrition, its more likely that was lack of preparation in training, rather than a skipped gel on race day.

mossym · 05-11-2016 9:22am

Enduro wrote: »

Is this what you're making reference to (I hadn't actually come accross this until now)?

Really bad mistake there, no matter what your opinion on the trial subject matter itself.

Yeah, was referring to his "trial", only in the context that he's a hot topic right now. for all the
Criticism that is thrown at some nutrition experts I don't remember any of them being put on trial

peter kern · 05-11-2016 11:52am

Keeks wrote: »

Following this thread with interest even though i have no intention of doing an Ironman or Marathon.

One thing I cant quite grasp, and sorry if this is a noob question, but people mention taking on coke or electrolytes during the run.....how is this done? Carried with you from the start? Already at feed stations?

both drinks and coke radlily availabe at most races in cups ( not a great solution but defo workable
some people take them with them from the start ( for instance 2x 300 400 500 mm bottles )
and some people place people at feed stations that hand out bottles during the race ( usually there is designated aid stations where that can be done )
or also special needs backs.

as with nutriton there is not one fit for everybody approach.

also since it was mentioned if there is one useful test its takeing bloods to check blood ( even more important for females(iron levels ) than guys

Dory Dory · 05-11-2016 12:10pm

peter kern wrote: »

also since it was mentioned if there is one useful test its takeing bloods to check blood ( even more important for females(iron levels ) than guys

Reading this as I take my morning iron tablet, which was confirmed with blood work!

zico10 · 05-11-2016 12:45pm

peter kern wrote: »

electrolytes would not really do in an ironman but ( enrgy drink and coke are enough if you get the nutrition on the bike right and maybe one or 2 gels.

peter kern wrote: »

both drinks and coke radlily availabe at most races in cups ( not a great solution but defo workable
some people take them with them from the start ( for instance 2x 300 400 500 mm bottles )
and some people place people at feed stations that hand out bottles during the race ( usually there is designated aid stations where that can be done )

Peter, if I wasn't aware of your omniscience, I might think your read my Mallorca report and you're passing off my ingenuity as your own.

peter kern · 06-11-2016 11:01am

you are about 13 years late to the party.

zico10 · 06-11-2016 11:41am

When I first met you, your line was '1g of carbs per kg of bodyweight per hour'. So you were either running very fast marathons or gels were much bigger 13 years ago to have been matching those energy requirements.

There's nothing wrong with admitting you've changed your mind about things over your many years in triathlon.

pgibbo · 07-11-2016 3:48pm

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

This isn't quite on-topic, but I just want to give a word of caution to anyone considering a LCHF diet (coming from a non-endurance Sprint/Oly perspective, mind). I tried it for 6 months, in large part because of what I read on online sports fora and trusting Noakes. Got bloodwork done after; my cholesterol had gone through the roof. Doc was very concerned, was shocked at my diet, and prescribed statins. I didn't take them, instead moved to a low fat diet (greens, brown carbs, fish) and within 3 months my cholesterol has gone back towards normal levels. I'd treat LCHF with scepticism.

Edit- may as well give my 2c on fueling for a marathon... whatever works in training will work on race day. Train yourself for gels, no gels, bacon sandwiches; whatever works for you in long runs. But if you have a disappointing marathon because of nutrition, its more likely that was lack of preparation in training, rather than a skipped gel on race day.

What was the LDL & HDL breakdown when it was high?

Kurt.Godel · 07-11-2016 5:06pm

pgibbo wrote: »

What was the LDL & HDL breakdown when it was high?

Total cholesterol was 6.7 (now down to 6). I asked for a breakdown of good and bad cholesterol and was given the figures, but forget them now. However the doc said both were the wrong side of where they wanted to be on the first reading, and better on the second (still a ways to go but she was happy that diet should right it).

*Edit- I'll say no more as its off topic. People can do whatever they want regarding fuelling and diet (and can find supporting info of all types online); I only posted to suggest those who introduce drastic changes, monitor those changes medically.

Enduro · 07-11-2016 5:33pm

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

Total cholesterol was 6.7 (now down to 6). I asked for a breakdown of good and bad cholesterol and was given the figures, but forget them now. However the doc said both were the wrong side of where they wanted to be on the first reading, and better on the second (still a ways to go but she was happy that diet should right it).

It's an area well worth reading into in depth, as there seems to have been plenty of anti-orthodox research emerging in the last few years. I'm guessing you already have! In general, its not difficult to get ahead of the level of knowledge of most doctors in this area (Not surprisingly).

peter kern · 08-11-2016 11:00am

I have not changed my mind on that as a basic rule and still believe that nutrition on the bike is the key.
And the first time I realised a bottle was better than cups was 2003 at Sligo half where they handed out water in 500ml milk cartoons since then I use bottles for the run and I have never taken more that 3 gels on the run for an ironman. I checked 2005 in Roth I had 1. On the run but bonked badly on the bike as I started out to fast but I got nutrition back beetween 120 - 170 k.
One think is clear different people need different nutrition and there is no one fit for all.the one thing I changed is that I would put way more emphasis on pacing to consider nutritional issues.

zico10 wrote: »

When I first met you, your line was '1g of carbs per kg of bodyweight per hour'. So you were either running very fast marathons or gels were much bigger 13 years ago to have been matching those energy requirements.

There's nothing wrong with admitting you've changed your mind about things over your many years in triathlon.

busterjones · 08-11-2016 1:11pm

On the LCHF point...
I also switched to a LCHF diet approx. 2 months ago before this years DCM and ran last week without gels (had 3 x nuun tabs along the way and had a breakfast of 3 slides of bacon and 2 eggs approx. 2 hours before the race, mirroring my training for the past 10 weeks) - finished with 3:11 (an improvement of 20 mins over last year).
Got bloods done last week and the doctor too said that I had high cholesterol and spoke about statins if this doesn't improve!!!
It was 5.16
From my basic research though, you need to look at the actual breakdown and in my case this may not appear to be as bad as the doctors reporting - any advice/ experience in reading these results please?
HDL at 2.08 and LDL is at 2.77.
I like the LCHF approach and would rather stick with it, although obviously not if its doing me harm.
Thanks,
BJ

iAcesHigh · 08-11-2016 2:05pm

busterjones wrote: »

On the LCHF point...
I also switched to a LCHF diet approx. 2 months ago before this years DCM and ran last week without gels (had 3 x nuun tabs along the way and had a breakfast of 3 slides of bacon and 2 eggs approx. 2 hours before the race, mirroring my training for the past 10 weeks) - finished with 3:11 (an improvement of 20 mins over last year).
Got bloods done last week and the doctor too said that I had high cholesterol and spoke about statins if this doesn't improve!!!
It was 5.16
From my basic research though, you need to look at the actual breakdown and in my case this may not appear to be as bad as the doctors reporting - any advice/ experience in reading these results please?
HDL at 2.08 and LDL is at 2.77.
I like the LCHF approach and would rather stick with it, although obviously not if its doing me harm.
Thanks,
BJ

don't want to interrupt the conversation, but let me just highlight that asking for advice on boards or anywhere online instead of listening to doctor doesn't really make any sense. If you really don't trust your doctor you should find another one which you trust, but definitely don't believe anonymous people from internet forum more than qualified specialist... (not pro or against LCHF, just pro to listening to people who are actually qualified to comment health issues)

busterjones · 08-11-2016 3:57pm

Point noted and I completely agree.

I guess what I'm asking for is some context/ understanding on the basics of the breakdown of the total cholesterol reading which can help me discuss results more meaningfully with my doctor.

Enduro · 08-11-2016 4:17pm

busterjones wrote: »

Point noted and I completely agree.

I guess what I'm asking for is some context/ understanding on the basics of the breakdown of the total cholesterol reading which can help me discuss results more meaningfully with my doctor.

I think this is a reasonable start point. Plenty of links to follow from there.

ooter · 09-11-2016 8:41pm

Fwiw I ran my pb @ DCM 14 just fueling on dates, can't remember now how many I took or how often I took them but they certainly worked for me, on top of that I took 1 gel and a mouthful of lucozade sport.
Now I probably wouldn't go with dates as I've learned more about digestion during marathons, I used grape juice @ DCM 16 and it seemed to work very well for me, didn't feel the need to go near gels, but having said that I was a lot slower than 14 due to an injury interrupted year and I am nowhere near as fat adapted now as I reckon I was in the run up to DCM 14.

Tec Diver · 12-12-2016 12:26pm

I do all my training and racing without carbs and have been for four years. They aren't necessary. On my last marathon I only drank water (and it was my fastest). No food during the race, and you shouldn't need any.

Eoin

ford2600 · 12-12-2016 2:20pm

On cholesterol and HFLC you really need to educate yourself to combat "common sense" on the topic.

My father died of heart disease at 84, after a very healthy life but as such I became very interested in why he got heart disease, advice he received from GP/health service in terms of advoiding butter/re meat etc and the promotion of statins/flora etc.

Total cholesterol is an awful predictor of heart disease, and LDL not much better.

If you switch from a typical western diet with circa 60% carb to HFLC for about 2/3 there is a little change in TC but for 1/3 it'll increase slightly. Almost universally HDL will increase and triglycerides drop; both "good" things as heart disease is currently understood.

IMO if your diet is dialed in and clean (whether that means you are sourcing your energy from nuts/olive oil/butter or quiona/millet/wild rice/sweet potato) in won't matter a sh1te to your cardiac health or general health once you have enough protein for your activity level, fats for health and micro nutrients. If you eat a clean diet it's really hard not to get everything you need on board.

The shameful thing about the cholesterol thing is that we still don't know a lot;
1. LDL is bad? Why? How does it act that's harmful.

2. Why is HDL good? How does it protect cardiac health.

Best of luck finding answers to those in the medical journals; there's plenty theories about

For anyone involved in sport, especially a catabolic sport like running/IM etc have a real good think about taking a statin. Cholesterol is produced from the same pathway as Q10. You reduce the bodies production of cholesterol means you reduce production of Q10. Not a good idea for an athlete. Q10 is found all over the body but in particular in muscles where it is an essential component in of ATP process.

If your cardiac health is a consideration the most beneficial things you can do take hard work but don't mean anyone gets rich out of you
* good mental health; really strong correlation between depression/anxiety and heart disease
* sleep more and sleep better
* enjoy your work
* make friends and have a positive social life.

Bar your diet is pop tarts and MacDonalds it probably has got nothing to do with it. Before you base your diet on effect on cholesterol have a read of this
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2012/08/cholesterol-what-does-the-blood-cholesterol-test-actually-measure/

and still ricky villa · 22-03-2017 2:28pm

I'm just planning my fuelling for Rotterdam and a link popped up on Facebook for the Hanson's carbohydrate calculator.
Great, I thought, this will remove any guesswork.

Normally I'd have 10 x 23g Carbs High5 Isogels.
If I use the calculator it's suggesting I need at least 800g of carbs, roughly 35 gels!
I am reading this totally wrong?
Even with a very soupy carb drink beforehand I'd still be necking gels constantly

(I know it's each to his/her own and had only intended to use this as a guide)

http://hansonscoachingservices.com/marathoncarbs/

Dilbert75 · 22-03-2017 2:34pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

I'm just planning my fuelling for Rotterdam and a link popped up on Facebook for the Hanson's carbohydrate calculator.
Great, I thought, this will remove any guesswork.

Normally I'd have 10 x 23g Carbs High5 Isogels.
If I use the calculator it's suggesting I need at least 800g of carbs, roughly 35 gels!
I am reading this totally wrong?
Even with a very soupy carb drink beforehand I'd still be necking gels constantly

(I know it's each to his/her own and had only intended to use this as a guide)

http://hansonscoachingservices.com/marathoncarbs/

It tells me I need about 21. I normally struggle to take 4. Every High 5 won't try get you to take that much.

Jakey Rolling · 22-03-2017 5:42pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

If I use the calculator it's suggesting I need at least 800g of carbs, roughly 35 gels!

I am reading this totally wrong?

http://hansonscoachingservices.com/marathoncarbs/

That calculator gives the carb requirements in kcals, so divide by 4 to get approx grams. That's then 9 gels, so about one every 20mins if thta's your thing.

I'm planning to try my first proper marathon unfuelled - I know I can run about 3:45 pace without fuel, but aiming for nearer 3:20. This calculator gives me hope that I should be able to make my target time without bonking. It takes into account VO2 max and heart rate. The background to the calculations makes interesting reading.

and still ricky villa · 22-03-2017 9:21pm

Now it makes sense, thanks for pointing that out. Schoolboy error

Looks like I'm bang on in what I'm doing so
Moving swiftly on....

Enduro · 22-03-2017 9:52pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Now it makes sense, thanks for pointing that out. Schoolboy error

Looks like I'm bang on in what I'm doing so
Moving swiftly on....

You "need" SFA. I've won marathons using a grand total of no gels and no sports drinks. I've won 24 hour races using even less (mostly fruits juice and flavoured milk, with no gels or solids)

and still ricky villa · 22-03-2017 10:32pm

Enduro wrote: »

You "need" SFA. I've won marathons using a grand total of no gels and no sports drinks. I've won 24 hour races using even less (mostly fruits juice and flavoured milk, with no gels or solids)

I've considered it as my long easy runs were unfuelled (if that's a word) but 3 weeks out I'm not keen on a change in a strategy that's seen me through in the past.
Maybe next time

Enduro · 22-03-2017 10:54pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

I've considered it as my long easy runs were unfuelled (if that's a word) but 3 weeks out I'm not keen on a change in a strategy that's seen me through in the past.
Maybe next time

If you're doing your long runs unfuelled then taking gels in the race is a (unnecessary) bit of a change of strategy though!

and still ricky villa · 22-03-2017 11:21pm

Enduro wrote: »

If you're doing your long runs unfuelled then taking gels in the race is a (unnecessary) bit of a change of strategy though!

I should have noted that marathon pace runs are fuelled

Jakey Rolling · 02-08-2017 10:55pm

So, I made it round Cork marathon in 3:27 unfuelled - took 1 x salt tab and copious amounts of water, mostly over my head. Splits were 1:42, 1:45. I felt the limiting factor to my effort was the heat, so I was running a fair bit below my lactate threshold. I will be interested to see what happens when I have the conditions to go for 3:20 pace (hopefully Dublin) - I will keep a couple of gels in my pocket just in case!

FWIW I also did the Portumna 100k the following week, took on a total of about 1200kCal over the 10 hours. Works out around 2/3 fat vs. 1/3 carb burned at that pace.

I do all my long runs early morning fasted and unfuelled, up to 4.5 hrs.

Fueling for 26.2 miles....

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