Cities around the world that are reducing car access

cgcsb · 13-05-2021 10:11am

Is the current government still pursuing the M11 upgrade? Rumours were this was costing around €1bn. A mental amount of money to increase motorway commuting.

The same cash would allow the state to build about 4,000 to 5,000 Central Dublin apartments, sell half them at cost to individual buyers only and keep the rest for affordable rental/social housing. Greatly reducing the need for such commutes on all routes. Shelve plans to add lanes to the M4 and M7 for billions and repeat this exercise 5 times, the housing and long distance transport issues would be resolved by 2025. The sites owned by the 20 or so multi storey car parks could be used and make the centre as car free as possible.

Seth Brundle · 13-05-2021 10:14am

If you look at the opposition to BusConnects and how many politicians were too fearful of change, I can't see any significant changes being made to our car dependent culture. And it is not just Dublin, it is nationally.
But the politicians are simply reacting to public opinion. We don't want high density housing near us which pushes even more urban sprawl so we are then forced to have the long commutes. We want to be able to drive to the retail parks filled with large British chains rather than walk down to our local shop (is there any safe bicycle parking in the likes of Liffey Valley?). We want to drop our kids off right outside the school because it in't safe for them to walk or cycle. And so on.

Thelonious Monk · 13-05-2021 10:22am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If you look at the opposition to BusConnects and how many politicians were too fearful of change, I can't see any significant changes being made to our car dependent culture. And it is not just Dublin, it is nationally.
But the politicians are simply reacting to public opinion. We don't want high density housing near us which pushes even more urban sprawl so we are then forced to have the long commutes. We want to be able to drive to the retail parks filled with large British chains rather than walk down to our local shop (is there any safe bicycle parking in the likes of Liffey Valley?). We want to drop our kids off right outside the school because it in't safe for them to walk or cycle. And so on.

Exactly, Irish people don't want it any other way, and they'll always have politicians to back them up. I'm getting too old to give a sh*t about this stuff any more, nothing is going to change.

13-05-2021 10:32am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Exactly, Irish people don't want it any other way, and they'll always have politicians to back them up. I'm getting too old to give a sh*t about this stuff any more, nothing is going to change.

Me too. Little enough sympathy any more for those sitting in traffic in their single occupancy cars in the morning. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.

But it is a pity that it has such an impact on our city. All I hope for is that incremental changes to pedestrianisation / bike lanes etc continue.

Ben D Bus · 13-05-2021 11:01am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Exactly, Irish people don't want it any other way, and they'll always have politicians to back them up. I'm getting too old to give a sh*t about this stuff any more, nothing is going to change.

Before we all give up out of despair, can I just remind everyone of the following

Canal cordon count 2019 showed 71% of commuters using sustainable transport

Car use crossing the canal cordon has been in continuous decline for over 10 years.

It's not over.

Re Bachelors Walk, it's bad now but is used to be much much worse when it was full of trucks for the port. I wouldn't base my view on an old TV show!

https://irishcycle.com/2020/05/28/pre-covid-19-dublin-traffic-count-showed-71-of-commuters-using-sustainable-transport/

Thelonious Monk · 13-05-2021 11:09am

Yeah when I was going to college in 99/2000 the traffic was absolutely diabolical going into town, total gridlock

Pete_Cavan · 13-05-2021 11:12am

cgcsb wrote: »

Is the current government still pursuing the M11 upgrade? Rumours were this was costing around €1bn.

I don't think there is anything to support that figure, seems to have been plucked from the air. It's not something which should be repeated. I would be against replacing the N11 but there are plenty of valid arguments against without resorting to made up figures. It's certainly not a case of not building a new motorway there funds solving the housing shortage.

LXFlyer · 13-05-2021 11:12am

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Before we all give up out of despair, can I just remind everyone of the following

Canal cordon count 2019 showed 71% of commuters using sustainable transport

Car use crossing the canal cordon has been in continuous decline for over 10 years.

It's not over.

Re Bachelors Walk, it's bad now but is used to be much much worse when it was full of trucks for the port. I wouldn't base my view on an old TV show!

https://irishcycle.com/2020/05/28/pre-covid-19-dublin-traffic-count-showed-71-of-commuters-using-sustainable-transport/

The BusConnects infrastructure project will help with reducing the car dependancy to/from the city centre, but the real problem nowadays is the vast number of local, orbital and suburban journeys made by car.

The BusConnects new route network will help with commutes to/from major traffic generators, but it is fair to say that I can't see the car's role in those types of journeys diminishing to the same extent.

The scattering of starting and ending points doesn't help, which makes matching public transport far more difficult, nor do the sheer size of many business parks, with there being significant distances sometimes to/from the main gate to employment locations.

Thelonious Monk · 13-05-2021 11:15am

Yes on a Saturday afternoon nowadays and pre covid too, every road in every suburb in Dublin is rammed with traffic, I don't know how that can be solved, I don't think it can be tbh and many people don't even view it as a problem

CatInABox · 13-05-2021 11:23am

MJohnston wrote: »

Yep, Dublin is in a spot where the only viable option for long-term gain is short-term pain for car commuters.

The only other option is "do nothing"

And "do nothing" isn't an option either, things can and will get much, much worse.

As an addendum to all this talk, I can't see us hitting our emissions targets at all, so eventually the government will turn its gimlet eye towards the impact that transport has on our emissions. When that happens, then we'll see if their imagination stretches further than "grants for e-cars".

listermint · 13-05-2021 11:29am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I don't think there is anything to support that figure, seems to have been plucked from the air. It's not something which should be repeated. I would be against replacing the N11 but there are plenty of valid arguments against without resorting to made up figures. It's certainly not a case of not building a new motorway there funds solving the housing shortage.

Brexit and rosslare port access to the EU is necessitated this requirement, I'm actually unsure what realistic opposition there should be to it. And Dublin port should be moved out of the city entirely.

Ben D Bus · 13-05-2021 1:56pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes on a Saturday afternoon nowadays and pre covid too, every road in every suburb in Dublin is rammed with traffic, I don't know how that can be solved, I don't think it can be tbh and many people don't even view it as a problem

I do believe safe cycling routes can help. At the moment the vast majority of cyclists are men. Experience elsewhere shows that safe cycling greatly increases female participation. The usual examples of Copenhagen & Amsterdam achieve a 50/50 male/female split. Given that safe cycling will also have some positive effect on men, it should be possible to double cycling simply by aiming for gender equality. How many new cyclists come from other sustainable modes vs cars I don't know but it can make a difference, even if not overnight.

Thelonious Monk · 13-05-2021 2:59pm

Ben D Bus wrote: »

I do believe safe cycling routes can help. At the moment the vast majority of cyclists are men. Experience elsewhere shows that safe cycling greatly increases female participation. The usual examples of Copenhagen & Amsterdam achieve a 50/50 male/female split. Given that safe cycling will also have some positive effect on men, it should be possible to double cycling simply by aiming for gender equality. How many new cyclists come from other sustainable modes vs cars I don't know but it can make a difference, even if not overnight.

It is definitely getting more popular with women, in urban areas anyway. I have noticed this myself.
You've seen the reaction to cycle infrastructure though, most people are against it f it interferes with their driving, I've been waiting most of my life for safe cycle lanes through Fairview and they just keep kicking the can down the road.

CatInABox · 13-05-2021 3:10pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It is definitely getting more popular with women, in urban areas anyway. I have noticed this myself.
You've seen the reaction to cycle infrastructure though, most people are against it f it interferes with their driving, I've been waiting most of my life for safe cycle lanes through Fairview and they just keep kicking the can down the road.

Starting soon though, right? Next month, I thought.

Amirani · 13-05-2021 3:17pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Starting soon though, right? Next month, I thought.

I'll believe it when I see it. There's been so many false dawns on this project.

Thelonious Monk · 13-05-2021 4:37pm

Amirani wrote: »

I'll believe it when I see it. There's been so many false dawns on this project.

Yep, and I'm just in the door from my office at Baggot St, went through Fairview and Howth road. Hadn't cycled in and out in a long time, for all the "Owen Keegan is destroying the city" with his cycle lanes, pretty much no difference in my commute, it's gotten worse as cars were speeding more than usual.
It's absolutely horrible to cycle around Dublin when there's normal traffic, they have done nothing to improve it.

Sam Russell · 14-05-2021 11:13am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yep, and I'm just in the door from my office at Baggot St, went through Fairview and Howth road. Hadn't cycled in and out in a long time, for all the "Owen Keegan is destroying the city" with his cycle lanes, pretty much no difference in my commute, it's gotten worse as cars were speeding more than usual.
It's absolutely horrible to cycle around Dublin when there's normal traffic, they have done nothing to improve it.

I was out driving yesterday and the traffic is horrendous - not just the volume but the standard of driving - it is like people have forgotten how to drive.

Maybe I have forgotten how bad most drivers are.

cgcsb · 14-05-2021 11:26am

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was out driving yesterday and the traffic is horrendous - not just the volume but the standard of driving - it is like people have forgotten how to drive.

Maybe I have forgotten how bad most drivers are.

Definitely worse, people still not understanding the yellow box or the stop line, worse than before.

Thelonious Monk · 14-05-2021 12:26pm

Many parts of the city centre are just drag strips, it's a nightmare to cycle around. Yesterday I was on Pearse and Tara, it's pretty scary when you haven't done it in a while and I'm surprised I haven't been in any accidents after so many years dicing with death on these roads. Maybe I'll just become used to it all again after a while commuting.

MJohnston · 14-05-2021 1:21pm

The thing I've noticed in the last year is that people seemed to start ignoring red lights completely during lockdown, and haven't changed their behaviour since.

I'm not talking about the endemic problem of drivers blazing through just-turned-reds, I'm talking drivers clearly intentionally just treating properly red lights like a stop sign.

Thelonious Monk · 14-05-2021 1:47pm

Yeah I've seen so much red light breaking by cars lately that it makes me wish I had a camera on bike so I could use it as a retort to the "I saw a cyclist break a red light once so it's ok that they are killed in accidents" brigade.

Thelonious Monk · 14-05-2021 2:16pm

The failure of pedestrianisation in Dublin is further shown up by the council closing Portobello Plaza. The place had been absolutely wrecked lately but people are going to gather in places anyway and continue to destroy these places with litter. I don't really know what the council are supposed to do here but surely they can't keep closing places where people are gathering?

https://twitter.com/DubCityCouncil/status/1393148790685814784

MJohnston · 14-05-2021 2:38pm

They need more places where people can gather! Preferably places like say Merrion Row, which doesn't have many residents, but lots of places people want to hang out.

Instead we have an utterly useless DCC executive who insist upon compromising pedestrianisation plans to benefit cars.

p_haugh · 14-05-2021 3:15pm

MJohnston wrote: »

They need more places where people can gather! Preferably places like say Merrion Row, which doesn't have many residents, but lots of places people want to hang out.

Instead we have an utterly useless DCC executive who insist upon compromising pedestrianisation plans to benefit cars.

Or perhaps even a properly pedestrianised Capel Street.....

Peregrine · 14-05-2021 3:24pm

p_haugh wrote: »

Or perhaps even a properly pedestrianised Capel Street.....

It's the last day to make submissions on the Capel Street proposals:
https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/capel-street-increasing-pedestrian-space/

cgcsb · 14-05-2021 7:47pm

They're creating spaces for people and simultaneously closing existing ones because they're full of people. It's like we're run by clowns or something.

Sam Russell · 14-05-2021 8:46pm

cgcsb wrote: »

They're creating spaces for people and simultaneously closing existing ones because they're full of people. It's like we're run by clowns or something.

But the ones they are opening is where they sell food, while the ones they are closing do not sell food.

Now I see a pattern.

Bsharp · 14-05-2021 9:41pm

listermint wrote: »

Brexit and rosslare port access to the EU is necessitated this requirement, I'm actually unsure what realistic opposition there should be to it. And Dublin port should be moved out of the city entirely.

Not so sure about moving Dublin Port out of the city. How many billions and at what environmental cost, to build a new port up the East Coast, and then drive all the goods back down again? Needs a lot more thought for me. Dublin Port is a big engineering feat not easily replicated. I thought DPC alternatives paper was a fair representative of the issues involved.

Thelonious Monk · 16-05-2021 1:00pm

So this guy got a response from the Garda that they dont mind people using bus lanes, there's not really much hope for change if the Garda aren't interested in applying the law

https://twitter.com/mhantain/status/1393596034815778825

cgcsb · 16-05-2021 4:41pm

Mod: snipped nasty comment. Play nice.

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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