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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail
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Sam Russell wrote: »
Surely, a school bus service might be able to provide such a service, particularly since the bus service could use the newly constructed M17 that runs parallel to the closed railway.
If you read my post I said that 10 hours was on top of school run. I don't see evidence of many on this thread doing the heavy lifting when it comes to child rearing (yet??). Two children, say over 12, who've got a few hobbies, will clock up a lot of 10-20 min runs to practice, competition clock up more time than you'd think
I've years of coaching experience under my belt. This is a story about the impact of public transport on young people. There were two successful gymnastics clubs (I coached in one), looking for a premises. One chose a place, cheap rent, 5 miles from the town with no transport links. It had to close within months & move back to the town because parents wouldn't/couldn't drive to it. It was now too difficult for the students to use it, the reason it had thrived before. They club wasn't able to expand or create more jobs.
The one I worked in made a different choice. We learnt from the other club. We put a good case to the committee etc, on why we needed to be near a major transport artery in the city (some folk thought we should have moved out to the country!!! :rolleyes: ) Because of it, our students stayed past 6th class (12 yrs) which is BIG deal in sports in Ireland. Then numbers rocketed, we've created over 15 jobs since and it's one of the largest clubs in the country with competitors in junior Olympics.
This is only one example of how important public transport, that can be used independently, is to both a community & an economy.0 -
That anecdote would only prove what you think it proves if you had figures which showed what percentage of people used public transport to get to the club now.If you read my post I said that 10 hours was on top of school run. I don't see evidence of many on this thread doing the heavy lifting when it comes to child rearing (yet??). Two children, say over 12, who've got a few hobbies, will clock up a lot of 10-20 min runs to practice, competition clock up more time than you'd think
I've years of coaching experience under my belt. This is a story about the impact of public transport on young people. There were two successful gymnastics clubs (I coached in one), looking for a premises. One chose a place, cheap rent, 5 miles from the town with no transport links. It had to close within months & move back to the town because parents wouldn't/couldn't drive to it. It was now too difficult for the students to use it, the reason it had thrived before. They club wasn't able to expand or create more jobs.
The one I worked in made a different choice. We learnt from the other club. We put a good case to the committee etc, on whey we needed to be near a major transport artery in the city (some folk thought we should have moved out to the country!!! :rolleyes: ) Because of it, our students stayed past 6th class (12 yrs) which is BIG deal in sports in Ireland. Then numbers rocketed, we've created over 15 jobs since and it's one of the largest clubs in the country with competitors in junior Olympics.
This is only one example of how important public transport, that can be used independently, is to both a community & an economy.
To me, it sounds more like a story of how people used Galway's favourite method of non-car commuting, walking, to get to the club. Or it could be that they cycle. Or, it could be that they are driving, but just didn't want to drive out of town.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19076
This is only one example of how important public transport, that can be used independently, is to both a community & an economy.
If only someone would invent a means of transport suitable for young teens that did not require them to be driven by parents.
Maybe it would have two wheels, and be propelled by the rider using say pedals. It might have electric lights so it could be ridden after dark, and perhaps the rider might wear hi-viz clothing and a helmet for protection. Of course it would need a bell to warn others of its approach because it would be quick and silent. I'm sure someone might invent such a device.
Maybe, the local council might invest in a making disused railway lines into greenways to facilitate this new form of transport.
What a transformation that would be.
Meanwhile, parents will have to run a free taxi service for their kids.0 -
@Greaney I don't think anyone is questioning the value of investment in good public transport.
We are questioning whether this is good public transport.0 -
If you really want to waste some hours reading up on track geometry requirements, knock yourself out - curve radius and superelevation are the main categories that affect line speed but there are also issues relating to structures, the quality of the trackbed and so on. Here's the US standards, ours would be much the same
https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=15770
(if you think the WOT press release claiming a 250% increase in construction costs versus Phase 1 is down to going from 80mph to 90mph, you need to stop trusting WOT press releases as sources of fact; and maybe look at the general increase in construction costs in Ireland since Phase 1; as well as the superior condition of the existing alignment on Phase 1 versus this. It is not down to a minor change in line speed, at all)
The errors cited on this thread are all nit-picking - Ballyglunin's tiny population that was not provided via an official source would be statistical noise in any demand calculations for a project of this scale; plus lots of complaints about display errors that do not actually impact the results.
These do not amount to something being "pulled apart", they are just weak, nit-picking and edge-pulling attempts to discredit something due to not liking the results.
I've read the report and have not seen any glaring errors that would discredit its result. I suspect many of those who think its "easily ripped apart" have not read it; but have read the posts and articles of those who claim there are with little to no basis.
I would imagine there is quite a difference in the cost of both design speeds and I think at the very least the same design speed as between Athenry and Ennis should have been used (80mph). Of course we would like to see 90mph but it would not be easily achieved between Tuam and Claremorris and would have added a considerable cost and considering Athlone to Westport has a design speed of 70mph why price for 90mph for this section and then give benefits of a substantially poorer railway?
The most common speed restriction between Ennis and Athenry is due to level crossings and increasing the speed from 80mph to 90mph would require 50m increase in viewing distance both directions. If this was not achieved there would need to be a speed restriction or removal of the level crossing at a considerable capitol cost.
The horizontal curvature is simple enough but the transitions for 90mph would be longer due to the height of required cant thus introducing more pinch points between Tuam and Claremorris which would need to be designed out again at a considerable cost when compared to 80mph.
Even the bog strip into Tuam that requires civil works was substantially over priced, similar projects have been completed in recent times that should have been used as a cost indicator.
There are too many cost errors in the report, I do not require WOT to inform me of any such conclusions, I think any educated individual should be able to establish that the report EY presented is not fit for purpose and should not have been accepted by IÉ or the government.0 -
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The continuous talk about a stop in a non-hamlet like Ballyglunin shows what an absolute joke the Phase 2 talk is.
I think a park and ride on the N63 where the bridge has been removed in Ballyglunin would be a great idea. There is a large amount of secondary school students studying in Athenry and Tuam from that area and surely the catchment would be very large north of Ballyglunin?
The trick of the report seems to be to show no benefit to the area, no benefit of the possible usership but introduce a stop that will slow the journey times between end destinations, excellent if you do not want reintroduction of the railway!0 -
There is political will to do that, so I have no doubt it will happen, eventually.
Likewise the 73% who support phase 2 of the WRC as a trainline may also give our politicians food for thought. That figure may be explained with 41% of the catchment area being under 18. An extra 10 hours per week of giving children & teens 'lifts' for years (school run aside) can take it's toll...
I wouldn't take too much heed of the 73% who responded support phase 2, the machinery of the political party that backs WOT will have got the vote out to skew those figures, its like one of those adverts that claim of the 100 dogs that showed a preference 75% went for pedigree chum type thing, meaningless but playful. What the attempts to discredit the reports have shown is that one political party is wedded to the WRC and to WOT and have a huge influence on WOT. "The Party" has a strong PR machine which has gone into overdrive since the report came out. The plan is pretty clear now to try and discredit the report and kick the can for the national review and of course then the North South Review, if this latter document has overinfluence from the political party that has been blathering away all week on this issue then that will be a concern, What I still fail to see is what is the obsession by some of these Western politicians in the WRC, I see one of the mantras of having both is back on the airwaves, they fail to point out that having one option, the greenway is about a 10 million euro option, but the both option is a hundreds of millions option, that is clearly why we cannot have both. Simples.0 -
If you read my post I said that 10 hours was on top of school run. I don't see evidence of many on this thread doing the heavy lifting when it comes to child rearing (yet??). Two children, say over 12, who've got a few hobbies, will clock up a lot of 10-20 min runs to practice, competition clock up more time than you'd think
I've years of coaching experience under my belt. This is a story about the impact of public transport on young people. There were two successful gymnastics clubs (I coached in one), looking for a premises. One chose a place, cheap rent, 5 miles from the town with no transport links. It had to close within months & move back to the town because parents wouldn't/couldn't drive to it. It was now too difficult for the students to use it, the reason it had thrived before. They club wasn't able to expand or create more jobs.
The one I worked in made a different choice. We learnt from the other club. We put a good case to the committee etc, on why we needed to be near a major transport artery in the city (some folk thought we should have moved out to the country!!! :rolleyes: ) Because of it, our students stayed past 6th class (12 yrs) which is BIG deal in sports in Ireland. Then numbers rocketed, we've created over 15 jobs since and it's one of the largest clubs in the country with competitors in junior Olympics.
This is only one example of how important public transport, that can be used independently, is to both a community & an economy.
The difference is you are talking about your fantastic sounding sports facility for youngsters and well done, but you are clearly talking about a facility probably in Dublin near the Dart or a good bus corridor route. With buses or darts every 15 minutes. This is never going to be the case with the WRC and to compare the kind of service levels on the WRC you will get (at best a train an hour) with an arterial commuter route in Dublin is just not comparable. I couldn't see the WRC replacing one school run in say East Galway could you? And by the way I am most certainly in that heavy lifting phase of taxi driving for teenagers so don't assume anything about people on this thread, I find it bloody patronising for one. Congratulations on the work you are doing in training.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »@Greaney I don't think anyone is questioning the value of investment in good public transport.
We are questioning whether this is good public transport.
One sentence sums up the entire issue.0 -
I wouldn't take too much heed of the 73% who responded support phase 2, the machinery of the political party that backs WOT will have got the vote out to skew those figures, its like one of those adverts that claim of the 100 dogs that showed a preference 75% went for pedigree chum type thing, meaningless but playful. What the attempts to discredit the reports have shown is that one political party is wedded to the WRC and to WOT and have a huge influence on WOT. "The Party" has a strong PR machine which has gone into overdrive since the report came out. The plan is pretty clear now to try and discredit the report and kick the can for the national review and of course then the North South Review, if this latter document has overinfluence from the political party that has been blathering away all week on this issue then that will be a concern, What I still fail to see is what is the obsession by some of these Western politicians in the WRC, I see one of the mantras of having both is back on the airwaves, they fail to point out that having one option, the greenway is about a 10 million euro option, but the both option is a hundreds of millions option, that is clearly why we cannot have both. Simples.
If the result was reversed with similar inaccuracies I bet equal if not more press releases would be gracing our screens and papers!! But sure this is Ireland, its grand if it suits my agenda so its fine!!0 -
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Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,823 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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ShaneC1600 wrote: »
The trick of the report seems to be to show no benefit to the area, no benefit of the possible usership but introduce a stop that will slow the journey times between end destinations, excellent if you do not want reintroduction of the railway!
That you think there's a trick here is disturbing
Had the stop not been evaluated, the report would still have found the C/B to be unsustainable and people would be calling foul that it could have provided extra passengers and altered the outcome. Which it wouldn't have, as we can see.0 -
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That anecdote would only prove what you think it proves if you had figures which showed what percentage of people used public transport to get to the club now.
The amount of children staying on after sixth class was usually a group of about 12, that rose to about 60 boys & girls. We attribute it absolutely to the fact that most of them were able to come straight from school to the gym independently.Sam Russell wrote: »If only someone would invent a means of transport suitable for young teens that did not require them to be driven by parents.
Maybe it would have two wheels, and be propelled by the rider using say pedals. It might have electric lights so it could be ridden after dark, and perhaps the rider might wear hi-viz clothing and a helmet for protection. Of course it would need a bell to warn others of its approach because it would be quick and silent. I'm sure someone might invent such a device.
I can tell you as a cycling advocate The WRC isn't suitable everyday cycling infrastructure. It's too long and bleak for children in winter. Childrens cycling radius is about 2 miles, so is most adults. Although the exception is adolescent boys with a crush, for that they'll cycle over lava.;)The difference is you are talking about your fantastic sounding sports facility for youngsters and well done, but you are clearly talking about a facility probably in Dublin near the Dart or a good bus corridor route. .
They both were in Galway.
One was in Tuam
It's held up as the one highlight on the entire route as a cycle trail by the Quiet Man Green Way campaign!The continuous talk about a stop in a non-hamlet like Ballyglunin shows what an absolute joke the Phase 2 talk is.
I would point out, that the stations town is Abbeyknockmoy. Which has a segregated cycle path linking them. Both places have primary schools that are feeder schools for Tuam & Athenry.I wouldn't take too much heed of the 73% who responded support phase 2, the machinery of the political party that backs WOT will have got the vote out to skew those figures.
The Lady doth protest too much :rolleyes:. That was the Quiet Man Greenway's entire campaign.0 -
That you think there's a trick here is disturbing
Had the stop not been evaluated, the report would still have found the C/B to be unsustainable and people would be calling foul that it could have provided extra passengers and altered the outcome. Which it wouldn't have, as we can see.
Why would it be disturbing you if I thought there was a trick to the result of the report? Very simple really. There are too many similar “mistakes” in the report all weighing against reactivating the line to be coincidental.
I didn’t say that this one instance would change the cost benefit, it is just one small indication showing the direction of the whole report.0 -
ShaneC1600 wrote: »There are too many similar “mistakes” in the report all weighing against reactivating the line to be coincidental.
.
So its a conspiracy now? :rolleyes:0 -
Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,823 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 64798
ShaneC1600 wrote: »Why would it be disturbing you if I thought there was a trick to the result of the report? Very simple really. There are too many similar “mistakes” in the report all weighing against reactivating the line to be coincidental.
I didn’t say that this one instance would change the cost benefit, it is just one small indication showing the direction of the whole report.
Its inclusion is not a mistake and I can guarantee that if it was left out there'd be objections too
You are imagining a conspiracy here because you don't like the results.0 -
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Its inclusion is not a mistake and I can guarantee that if it was left out there'd be objections too
You are imagining a conspiracy here because you don't like the results.
I am not saying it’s a conspiracy, the result is fine, it’s the way they got to it that I am bothered with. They really priced for a serious railway, all steel bridges removed and replaced with new, all OP crossings closed, all field crossings closed, 3 loops with one in oranmore, saddling all masonry arches regardless of the condition, Tuam bog issues overly priced and the list goes on.
It’s more like a railway wish list but I guess if your going to not build a railway you might as well not build a good one.0 -
Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,823 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 64798
ShaneC1600 wrote: »I am not saying it’s a conspiracy, the result is fine, it’s the way they got to it that I am bothered with. They really priced for a serious railway, all steel bridges removed and replaced with new, all OP crossings closed, all field crossings closed, 3 loops with one in oranmore, saddling all masonry arches regardless of the condition, Tuam bog issues overly priced and the list goes on.
It’s more like a railway wish list but I guess if your going to not build a railway you might as well not build a good one.
They priced for a to-standards rebuild; nothing more.
Pricing for a goat track still wouldn't have actually turned the C/B around; anyway.0 -
They priced for a to-standards rebuild; nothing more.
Pricing for a goat track still wouldn't have actually turned the C/B around; anyway.
A stop, to standard! So they could have picked 100mph standard and that would have been great too. Even for a 90mph standard, they technically they didn't need to remove all OP crossings if I remember right as that is only stipulated for speeds north of 100mph for "to standard".
And as for the smart goat track comment, maybe your on to something, maybe it was the population of goats in Tuam that they used instead of the actual population 🀔0 -
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ShaneC1600 wrote: »I am not saying it’s a conspiracy, the result is fine, it’s the way they got to it that I am bothered with. They really priced for a serious railway, all steel bridges removed and replaced with new, all OP crossings closed, all field crossings closed, 3 loops with one in oranmore, saddling all masonry arches regardless of the condition, Tuam bog issues overly priced and the list goes on.
It’s more like a railway wish list but I guess if your going to not build a railway you might as well not build a good one.
Ah yes but why should the wesht accept anything but a world class railway, they would accept no less up in Dublin, just saying like...or should they have priced up for a less "serious" railway. Away with ye, they priced up for a safe standard modern railway, do it properly and it doesn't come in cheap, the problem is as they clearly pointed out there simply isn't justification for it and more to the point Jaspers said there will be no European slush fund money for it. Everyone committed to this report, greenway and railway supporters, we all sat and waited for it, in February 2018 when it was included in Ireland 2040 West on Track welcomed it, no doubt they participated in the consultation process, the greenway campaign did, we all put our views in and this is he result. Jaspers overlooked it and gave their views; it is clearly obvious what is going on here, the one political party committed to WRC wants the process delayed further until they are in Government, we all know what is going on. The report has been delivered will ye all have the good grace to accept its conclusions and move on.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19076
ShaneC1600 wrote: »A stop, to standard! So they could have picked 100mph standard and that would have been great too. Even for a 90mph standard, they technically they didn't need to remove all OP crossings if I remember right as that is only stipulated for speeds north of 100mph for "to standard".
And as for the smart goat track comment, maybe your on to something, maybe it was the population of goats in Tuam that they used instead of the actual population ��
I thought it was sheep not goats that populated Tuam - is that not true?0 -
I've read the report and have not seen any glaring errors that would discredit its result. I suspect many of those who think its "easily ripped apart" have not read it; but have read the posts and articles of those who claim there are with little to no basis.
Accurate reports mean something.
I wasn't invested enough to join a thread on any forum to discuss our sugar industry, but I'm obviously appalled that we now don't produce any sugar on the island due to a bad report.0 -
Ah yes but why should the wesht accept anything but a world class railway, they would accept no less up in Dublin, just saying like...or should they have priced up for a less "serious" railway. Away with ye, they priced up for a safe standard modern railway, do it properly and it doesn't come in cheap, the problem is as they clearly pointed out there simply isn't justification for it and more to the point Jaspers said there will be no European slush fund money for it. Everyone committed to this report, greenway and railway supporters, we all sat and waited for it, in February 2018 when it was included in Ireland 2040 West on Track welcomed it, no doubt they participated in the consultation process, the greenway campaign did, we all put our views in and this is he result. Jaspers overlooked it and gave their views; it is clearly obvious what is going on here, the one political party committed to WRC wants the process delayed further until they are in Government, we all know what is going on. The report has been delivered will ye all have the good grace to accept its conclusions and move on.
Look thats fine, can I ask you do you think the report is up to standard? If the Galway Council Feasibility Study into a greenway comes back and says the corridor is not suitable as the population of Tuam at 1000 odd is too low and a greenway standard surface is prohibitively expensive or something using inaccurate information, im guessing people would not be happy?
Anyways my original point was that the report priced for 90mph but didn't give the benefits of the 90mph service.
In any event, onto the next report, greenway Feasibility Study, then network wide rail study and surely then a new political party's turn to start something.0 -
ShaneC1600 wrote: »In any event, onto the next report, greenway Feasibility Study, then network wide rail study and surely then a new political party's turn to start something.
Hey so long as the status quo is maintained and nobody gets to use it for a greenway, thats all that matters, not whether a railway ever gets built (hint, its not going to happen in our lifetimes)0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »If only someone would invent a means of transport suitable for young teens that did not require them to be driven by parents.
Maybe it would have two wheels, and be propelled by the rider using say pedals. It might have electric lights so it could be ridden after dark, and perhaps the rider might wear hi-viz clothing and a helmet for protection. Of course it would need a bell to warn others of its approach because it would be quick and silent. I'm sure someone might invent such a device.
Maybe, the local council might invest in a making disused railway lines into greenways to facilitate this new form of transport.
What a transformation that would be.
Meanwhile, parents will have to run a free taxi service for their kids.
Or, like mainland Europe, allow 14 year olds to ride mopeds.Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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ShaneC1600 wrote: »
In any event, onto the next report, greenway Feasibility Study, then network wide rail study and surely then a new political party's turn to start something.
you got it in one. Kick the can is the long game played by WOT until SF get into power and then they will deliver (err big problem is Europe won't put their hands in the till) so nothing will happen, so on we go. The plan has always been at all costs stop the greenway.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Hey so long as the status quo is maintained and nobody gets to use it for a greenway, thats all that matters, not whether a railway ever gets built (hint, its not going to happen in our lifetimes)
But its not a greenway, maybe they believe a railway linking the west is the best use of the line and if the report was up to any kind of standard maybe more would buy into a greenway.
Im surprised there aren't any other interested parties looking to lease the line. A series of wind turbines along the flats of Galway and Mayo powering the electric trains that we will never see in the west might make an interesting report 🀔0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19076
Or, like mainland Europe, allow 14 year olds to ride mopeds.
I would think that might happen with electric scooters soon.
Aside from that, if a new rail link was planned along the west coast serving Sligo to Limerick, via Galway, would it use any part of the Tuam to Athenry alignment?
I personally doubt it. If this new railway line was intended as an intercity line, it would need to visit the one city on the route, and might benefit going via airports on the way. If it is not intercity, what is it for that a school bus could not do?
It is like building a new motorway and insisting it uses a dual carriageway built 50 years ago that is not fit for use now because it is too narrow, but the locals like it as it was the first one built in the country, and local history is important.
I think Percy French might write a song about this if he were still around.0 -
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Sam Russell wrote: »I
Aside from that, if a new rail link was planned along the west coast serving Sligo to Limerick, via Galway, would it use any part of the Tuam to Athenry alignment?
I personally doubt it. If this new railway line was intended as an intercity line, it would need to visit the one city on the route, and might benefit going via airports on the way. If it is not intercity, what is it for that a school bus could not do?
Exactly and despite all this solid truth Mayo county council still oppose a greenway on the route north of Claremorris. The Claremorris to Charlestown section could and should be used for Greenway but MCC resolutely oppose it, they have refused to write the idea into the latest draft county plan which is now open for submissions; thankfully Sligo apopted the greenway thinking for north of Charlestown to Collooney several years ago and are progressing to planning stage, but Mayo county council will just not accept the reality that the alignment they are stopping being used for a greenway is simply not relevant in this debate.0
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