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Catholic sacraments to become optional in schools?

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Comments

  • #102
    mvl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You may need to brush up on your Constitutional and Human Rights Law.
    Funny thing is - I think he's allowed to think what he wants, and he can do whatever he thinks is appropriate for his children.
    I am a parent and a tax payer, and this is what my needs are.
    IMO, religion is an ideal candidate as one of the school subjects; you'd have certified teachers to teach it. Having it taught in public schools means the state can influence curricula and there would be no indoctrination.

    @Snow_Garden: because of that extremism I feel more obliged to mention in that I am christian (public or private); But other activism triggers me lately: I am dreading the times when trans kids would be in primary schools, and the parents might need to explain what is going on with menstruating boys ...ah, wait, I am sure the "party" here thinks the school should educate towards that by now, on taxpayers money :(


  • #103
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    uptherebels wrote: »
    But you aren't using the same rationale. Catholic schools aren't funded from church revenue, they are directly funded by state revenue. The money isn't paid to the church. You should know by now the church doesn't really spend its own money.


    I’m using exactly the same rationale because I’m talking about the services of education provided to the State by the Catholic Bishops of Ireland as Patrons of all the Catholic schools in Ireland. Church provides education, State pays them for their services. It’s significantly cheaper for the State to do that, than to attempt to provide education themselves on a national scale.

    The Church has spent plenty of its own money on properties and land it provides for the purposes of education, which is why contrary to popular belief- Churches established schools to provide religious education, the State established fannyadamsworth in terms of schools and school facilities. The State pays the teachers and staff, but their contracts of employment are with the Board of Management of the schools in which they are employed.

    The State provides for education and on that basis funds the education of all children regardless of the Patrons of the schools, as long as the Patron body meets the criteria to qualify for funding from the State.


  • #104
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    That't not what they meant, and you know that.


    I know what they meant HD and frankly it bugs the shìt out of me that there are idiots who think that because they pay taxes they should be able to deny other people their human rights. One has no relation to the other.


  • #105
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Do you think the lizard people might have something to do with it Charles?
    Lizard people? No idea what you are talking about


  • #106
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I didn’t think you were either, not with a post like that anyway where you don’t appear to be aware of the legal recognition given to religion in Irish and International law which pretty much says you’re wrong on every count.

    Suggesting schools dont teach religion is not the same as suggesting religions shouldn't be recognised. In fact I clearly said religion shouldn't be taught unless it's an educational subject.

    The constitution can be changed by referendum and I'm pretty sure as a glaring example France don't have religious instruction in secular schools*. Are they in breach of international law? Are the educate together schools here breaching both international AND Constitutional law?

    *it obviously needs to be clearly identified that this is not meant as a legal statement or as an authoratitive account of the French education system, I am offering it up on a discussion basis only.


  • #107
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Suggesting schools dont teach religion is not the same as suggesting religions shouldn't be recognised. In fact I clearly said religion shouldn't be taught unless it's an educational subject.


    And I could have gone into detail and pointed out that what you’re suggesting would violate people’s human rights, but I didn’t take your suggestion seriously as it was so, so fundamentally flawed.

    The constitution can be changed by referendum and I'm pretty sure as a glaring example France don't have religious instruction in secular schools*. Are they in breach of international law? Are the educate together schools here breaching both international AND Constitutional law?

    *it obviously needs to be clearly identified that this is not meant as a legal statement or as an authoratitive account of the French education system, I am offering it up on a discussion basis only.


    Not much discussion to be had really, the answer to both your questions is no.


  • #108
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    And I could have gone into detail and pointed out that what you’re suggesting would violate people’s human rights, but I didn’t take your suggestion seriously as it was so, so fundamentally flawed.





    Not much discussion to be had really, the answer to both your questions is no.

    It breaches human rights to take religion out of schools but those who have done it haven't breached human rights :pac:

    If you don't like a post or don't feel you want to discuss it... Replying to it seems a bit bizarre.


  • #109
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I know what they meant HD and frankly it bugs the shout of me that there are idiots who think that because they pay taxes they should be able to deny other people their human rights. One has no relation to the other.

    It's not catholics whose human rights are being denied, Jack.

    Nobody has a right to religious instruction at taxpayer expense.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #110
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I’m using exactly the same rationale because I’m talking about the services of education provided to the State by the Catholic Bishops of Ireland as Patrons of all the Catholic schools in Ireland. Church provides education, State pays them for their services. It’s significantly cheaper for the State to do that, than to attempt to provide education themselves on a national scale.

    The Church has spent plenty of its own money on properties and land it provides for the purposes of education, which is why contrary to popular belief- Churches established schools to provide religious education, the State established fannyadamsworth in terms of schools and school facilities. The State pays the teachers and staff, but their contracts of employment are with the Board of Management of the schools in which they are employed.

    The State provides for education and on that basis funds the education of all children regardless of the Patrons of the schools, as long as the Patron body meets the criteria to qualify for funding from the State.

    No your using some mental gymnastics to try and use the same rationale. Well maybe you point out how much of the 10.9 billion education budget is paid to the church for provision of these services? The part the state specifically pays them for their services?
    What difference does it make whom a teacher's contract is with? They are paid by the state.
    I'm not very up to date on church land holdings, but how much has the church actually paid for? Not built with government grants? Or given under a deed of trust?


  • #111
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    It breaches human rights to take religion out of schools but those who have done it haven't breached human rights :pac:

    If you don't like a post or don't feel you want to discuss it... Replying to it seems a bit bizarre.

    As far as I'm aware the ECHR ruled there is no right to a religious education in public schools


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  • #112
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    It breaches human rights to take religion out of schools but those who have done it haven't breached human rights :pac:

    If you don't like a post or don't feel you want to discuss it... Replying to it seems a bit bizarre.


    You asked me were secular schools in breach of human rights law and I answered that they weren’t. What’s to discuss?

    The schools you’re talking about were never established as religious schools in the first place, that’s the difference between denying religious education in a religious ethos school, and a school where there was never a religious ethos in the first place. They’re two different types of schools offering two different types of education.


  • #113
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    It's not catholics whose human rights are being denied, Jack.

    Nobody has a right to religious instruction at taxpayer expense.


    It would be if some people here had their way though. But you’re right, it’s not Catholics whose human rights are being denied and that’s not likely to happen any time soon either.

    It’s not religious instruction at taxpayers expense either, it’s at the expense of the State, which is obligated to provide for religious instruction in education -


    However, if parents in Ireland want the State to provide for RI in State schools or State recognised schools, the Constitution, it appears, requires that it be provided. In the Campaign case Costello P in the High Court stated that Art 42.4 enjoins the State when providing educational facilities to have regard to religious and moral formation.


    The Irish Constitution: Education and Human Rights in Recognised Schools


  • #114
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,409 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Jack, how do you think the State gets money? Where do you think it comes from? The 'State' is is us, BTW. It's the legal/administrive function of every man, woman and child who is a citizen of this country.


  • #115
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Jack, how do you think the State gets money? Where do you think it comes from? The 'State' is is us, BTW. It's the legal/administrive function of every man, woman and child who is a citizen of this country.


    Where the State gets its money is completely irrelevant to the issue of where the State spends its money, or rather where the Minister for Finance on behalf of Government will decide where the revenue the State receives from numerous sources will be distributed.

    That’s why the idea of individual taxpayers having any perceived right to determine where “their taxes” are spent is just nonsense, which is actually a good thing for every man, woman and child in this country, citizen or not.


  • #116
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    This suggestion doesn't remove religious education from schools though. I understand it's just the sacraments and the required preparation. Also worth noting again that this suggestion comes from within the church.


  • #117
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Where the State gets its money is completely irrelevant to the issue of where the State spends its money, or rather where the Minister for Finance on behalf of Government will decide where the revenue the State receives from numerous sources will be distributed.

    That’s why the idea of individual taxpayers having any perceived right to determine where “their taxes” are spent is just nonsense, which is actually a good thing for every man, woman and child in this country, citizen or not.

    This whole argument is a strawman invented by yourself. Nobody suggested that taxpayers should have a direct say in what their money is used for, only that State money (ie taxes despite your pedantic bullshit) shouldn't be used for religion.

    You're inventing arguments against you.


  • #118
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You asked me were secular schools in breach of human rights law and I answered that they weren’t. What’s to discuss?

    The schools you’re talking about were never established as religious schools in the first place, that’s the difference between denying religious education in a religious ethos school, and a school where there was never a religious ethos in the first place. They’re two different types of schools offering two different types of education.

    You suggested my opinion that school and education be separated was a breach of a human right and recommended I brush up on my constitional and international law. I gave two perfectly good examples of how education and religion are perfectly separated both here and abroad. You agree that they are not in breach of any international or constutional law, so I fail to see the relevance of referring me to them.

    You say there's nothing to discuss... But you're happily discussing it.


  • #119
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    most schools in rural Ireland were set up at the edges of parishes to generate money for the church
    Why? to suck in families and children from neighbouring parishes into that parish and so get them going to the church and suck more money out of them.
    some parishes were known as wealthy parishes for that very reason
    eg in the local parish there were 5 primary schools. one in the central village and four more out at the corners of the parish.
    3 of those schools on the edge of the parish have now closed due to dwindling numbers


  • #120
    mvl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    3 of those schools on the edge of the parish have now closed due to dwindling numbers
    How does this work : would closing few schools in one parish allow opening new ones in other parishes where/if the population has increased meanwhile ?


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  • #121
    sk8erboii
    Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    Sonny noggs wrote: »
    How did you do in the mocks? All set for the Leaving cert?

    Another cringy rereg post. These ‘zingers’ are pretty low IQ


  • #122
    circadian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,038 ✭✭✭circadian


    sk8erboii wrote: »
    Another cringy rereg post. These ‘zingers’ are pretty low IQ

    How'd you do though? Best of luck anyway, don't mind the trolls they all passed alternative science with flying chemtrails.


  • #123
    Jamsiek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭Jamsiek


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    That’s why the idea of individual taxpayers having any perceived right to determine where “their taxes” are spent is just nonsense, which is actually a good thing for every man, woman and child in this country, citizen or not.

    also a good reason to leave


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