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Catholic sacraments to become optional in schools?

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    #62
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,671 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    uptherebels wrote: »
    Might have a point if all those Catholic schools were self funded, like a Chinese restaurant would be.


    Chinese restaurants aren’t self-funded? If they didn’t have repeat business from customers even though the food tastes like shìte, they’d go out of business. In spite of the fact that the food tastes like shìte, Irish people can’t seem to get enough of it, complaining at the same time that it left a bad taste in their mouths. Typical Irish attitude to everything really - complain about the service while giving them repeat business.


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    #63
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Chinese restaurants aren’t self-funded? If they didn’t have repeat business from customers even though the food tastes like shìte, they’d go out of business. In spite of the fact that the food tastes like shìte, Irish people can’t seem to get enough of it, complaining at the same time that it left a bad taste in their mouths. Typical Irish attitude to everything really - complain about the service while giving them repeat business.

    How many Chinese restaurants are funded by the state, ie your taxes?

    Sounds like you've been going to the wrong restaurants, or maybe you like your schpuds and praties.


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    #64
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Chinese restaurants aren’t self-funded? If they didn’t have repeat business from customers even though the food tastes like shìte, they’d go out of business. In spite of the fact that the food tastes like shìte, Irish people can’t seem to get enough of it, complaining at the same time that it left a bad taste in their mouths. Typical Irish attitude to everything really - complain about the service while giving them repeat business.

    They are funded from their from their own revenue. I thought that basic business concept was self explanatory.


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    #65
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,931 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    I wonder if I went to a Chinese restaurant and complained about them serving me all this Chinese food, would the chef prepare me some Irish cuisine? Of course not. I'd be asked to leave.

    Same should be said to any parent pushing for this nonsense in a Catholic school. I pity those kids whos parents put virtue signalling ahead of their child's education.

    Right.

    Imagine there were no supermarkets in the country, and everyone had to eat in restaurants, but the state pays for the staff and food.

    90% of the restaurants are Chinese, but you can't eat it.

    Oh and you still have to pay for everyone who eats at the Chineses through your taxes.

    That's what it's like.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #66
    sk8erboii
    Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    I wonder if I went to a Chinese restaurant and complained about them serving me all this Chinese food, would the chef prepare me some Irish cuisine? Of course not. I'd be asked to leave.

    Same should be said to any parent pushing for this nonsense in a Catholic school. I pity those kids whos parents put virtue signalling ahead of their child's education.

    You... you actually used food analogy for a complex issue?

    Sounds like you could do more time in formal education


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    #67
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,671 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    How many Chinese restaurants are funded by the state, ie your taxes?

    Sounds like you've been going to the wrong restaurants, or maybe you like your schpuds and praties.


    It’s an analogy, it’s not actually real. That’s why there are no Chinese restaurants funded by the State, they are funded by their customers. The State is a customer of the RCC who provide education, and for that the State can’t just walk out of the shop without paying for it’s food. The State could cook it’s own food at home, like I could cook my own food at home instead of paying over the odds for a Chinese, but just like I’m willing to pay extra for the convenience aspect of not having to prepare my own food myself, so too is the State enjoying the convenience aspect of not having to provide education itself.

    The State chooses to outsource the provision of education to third parties, and for availing of the services of those third parties, they must pay for them. How they pay for them is from general taxation which means it doesn’t matter whether you or I can or can’t afford to educate our own children, the point is that nobody has to, because the State is paying service providers to provide education for everyone regardless of individuals ability to pay for it.


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    #68
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,671 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    uptherebels wrote: »
    They are funded from their from their own revenue. I thought that basic business concept was self explanatory.


    It is, and using that same rationale, the RCC are funded from their own revenue that they take in for the provision of services to the State. You could of course argue that the State isn’t getting good value for money, but then you’d have far more people complaining that they can’t afford to pay for their own children’s education than the small number of people who are of the opinion that they aren’t seeing the value of their taxes. Perhaps they failed to learn in school that’s not what taxes are for. They’re not a savings scheme.


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    #69
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    I wonder if I went to a Chinese restaurant and complained about them serving me all this Chinese food, would the chef prepare me some Irish cuisine? Of course not. I'd be asked to leave.

    Same should be said to any parent pushing for this nonsense in a Catholic school. I pity those kids whos parents put virtue signalling ahead of their child's education.

    I think that might be the most ridiculous analogy I’ve ever read on boards.ie and that’s really saying something. Especially as the restaurant probably wouldn’t be so dramatic as to ask you to leave. They’d likely just say “Take it or leave it.”.


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    #70
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    I wonder if I went to a Chinese restaurant and complained about them serving me all this Chinese food, would the chef prepare me some Irish cuisine? Of course not. I'd be asked to leave.

    Same should be said to any parent pushing for this nonsense in a Catholic school. I pity those kids whos parents put virtue signalling ahead of their child's education.

    What an excellent point I couldn't agree more.
    Catholics are allowed to be mocked and ridiculed unfortunately
    Yet other religious groups are off limits


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    #71
    Sonny noggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭Sonny noggs


    sk8erboii wrote: »
    You... you actually used food analogy for a complex issue?

    Sounds like you could do more time in formal education

    How did you do in the mocks? All set for the Leaving cert?


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    #72
    SoundsRight
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 408 ✭✭SoundsRight


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I think that might be the most ridiculous analogy I’ve ever read on boards.ie and that’s really saying something. Especially as the restaurant probably wouldn’t be so dramatic as to ask you to leave. They’d likely just say “Take it or leave it.”.

    What's ridiculous is people complaining about Catholic children being taught the sacraments in a Catholic school. I notice they don't complain about Muslim children learning about their faith during school hours. Why might that be I wonder?


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    #73
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    What's ridiculous is people complaining about Catholic children being taught the sacraments in a Catholic school. I notice they don't complain about Muslim children learning about their faith during school hours. Why might that be I wonder?

    Isn’t it the church who are suggesting this?

    Thought I heard that it was a Diarmuid Martin suggestion.


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    #74
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    What's ridiculous is people complaining about Catholic children being taught the sacraments in a Catholic school. I notice they don't complain about Muslim children learning about their faith during school hours. Why might that be I wonder?

    I went to a secondary school with a sizeable enough minority of Muslim kids. They went to the library during religion class because even though it was a community school and supposedly multidenominational, religion class was basically Catholic class. There was no tailored teaching for the Muslim students. The Muslim kids presumably got religious instruction outside of school hours at home or at a mosque.

    Who is this “they” that you speak of and to which schools are you referring?


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    #75
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,935 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    What's ridiculous is people complaining about Catholic children being taught the sacraments in a Catholic school. I notice they don't complain about Muslim children learning about their faith during school hours. Why might that be I wonder?

    I suppose if you send your child to a religious school you can be considered to be signing up to their religion. But in a lot of places Catholic schools are all there is.


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    #76
    circadian
    Registered Users Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭circadian


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    I wonder if I went to a Chinese restaurant and complained about them serving me all this Chinese food, would the chef prepare me some Irish cuisine? Of course not. I'd be asked to leave.

    Same should be said to any parent pushing for this nonsense in a Catholic school. I pity those kids whos parents put virtue signalling ahead of their child's education.

    I fail to see how this affects their education to be fair. Virtue signalling? Catch yourself on.

    Hardly going to affect teaching of science, maths etc is it.


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    #77
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,336 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    mad muffin wrote: »
    Soccer, GAA, swimming, beavers, and other after school activities. Definitely would not want this as well to be after school. I’m very happy that it’s done during school.

    I have yet to meet a child doing ALL of those things with any regularity. If a child's parents are putting too many hobbies on a child then that could be looked at. If the religion hobby is taking up too much time outside school then all the hobbies of the child should be looked and to decide which ones that child wishes to continue with and which not.

    Wanting too many hobbies for your child and hence pushing them into the school hours onto kids who do not have that hobby.... probably not the best way to be going about it any more and I can see why people might be wanting to change that.
    SoundsRight wrote: »
    I wonder if I went to a Chinese restaurant and complained about them serving me all this Chinese food, would the chef prepare me some Irish cuisine? Of course not. I'd be asked to leave.

    Was the sausage and chips the kids ordered the last time I was in a Chinese restaurant entirely imaginary then? In fact I think I have yet to be in a Chinese Restaurant that did NOT have a whole non-chinese section on the menu to cater for customers with other tastes.

    And they were not asked to leave, leave early, to go sit at a different table or in a different room to the rest of their group, or told that they would be better off driving to a restaurant 80 miles down the road. They were accommodated seamlessly.
    SoundsRight wrote: »
    I notice they don't complain about Muslim children learning about their faith during school hours. Why might that be I wonder?

    Who is "they" here? Actually many do have issues with it. You not noticing this does not mean it does not happen.

    For example Atheist Ireland have united with the Evangelical Alliance of Ireland AND the Ahmadi Muslims on precisely the point of moving towards a more secular education system, and to end religious discrimination in access to schools.


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    #78
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    taxpayers should not be paying to develop any religion in schools
    let the churches/temples or whatever pay for someone or organise a volunteer to take the instruction outside of school hours


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    #79
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,671 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    taxpayers should not be paying to develop any religion in schools
    let the churches/temples or whatever pay for someone or organise a volunteer to take the instruction outside of school hours


    Taxpayers aren’t paying to develop anything in schools. They’re not even paying for their own children’s education. There are many churches do what you’re suggesting already, and as well as doing this, they also provide schools where parents who want that form of education for their children to continue in a formal education setting can do so, paid for by Government, not the individual taxpayer. If individual taxpayers had to pay for their own children’s education, a lot more children would miss out on the education their parents would want for them as they couldn’t afford to pay for it themselves.


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    #80
    TheAsYLuMkeY
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭TheAsYLuMkeY


    uptherebels wrote: »
    They are funded from their from their own revenue. I thought that basic business concept was self explanatory.

    That revenue comes from the pockets of the church attendees via the donations basket, so in a way it is the taxes of the people. Granted it is only a certain portion of the population but that is the way taxation works, i am taxed on my wages and roads are funded in other parts of the country i may never drive on for example. The church needs to recognise that they are being permitted to operate within the state, gather money from certain swathes of the population, if other members of the population within the state happen to have children that attend schools they operate because of their geographical location, they should have the right to choose if they are instructed in their theological teachings.
    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    What an excellent point I couldn't agree more.
    Catholics are allowed to be mocked and ridiculed unfortunately
    Yet other religious groups are off limits

    Well i dont believe in any religion, but i dont believe in mocking anyone for their religious belief either. As long as your actions dont harm anyone or have a negative effect on anothers quality of life i say live and let live.
    SoundsRight wrote: »
    What's ridiculous is people complaining about Catholic children being taught the sacraments in a Catholic school. I notice they don't complain about Muslim children learning about their faith during school hours. Why might that be I wonder?

    I think it should all be optional, if the religion dies off eventually that is the will of the people and should be recognised by the churches if they are operating within the state.


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    #81
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    mad muffin wrote: »
    What mental retard parents wants to have this after school hours? There’s enough going on.

    Soccer, GAA, swimming, beavers, and other after school activities. Definitely would not want this as well to be after school. I’m very happy that it’s done during school.

    It doesn’t take up that much school time, and at 8 years old, it’s not like they are going to be missing too much.

    It's a very young age to fill a child's head with nonsense too.


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    #82
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Lets keep the sacraments holy for genuine Catholics .
    I prayed the holy rosary with my children everyday until they left home,
    I still pray it everyday, faith is a gift and should be treated as such.

    This isn't Little House on the Prairie Charles!

    Or is it?

    In Walnut Grove the Ingalls family attended the Congregational Church which is a Protestant denomination :eek:


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    #83
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,271 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Lets keep the sacraments holy for genuine Catholics .
    I prayed the holy rosary with my children everyday until they left home,
    I still pray it everyday, faith is a gift and should be treated as such.

    grim

    my grandmother expected us as young kids to say that blasted thing every night when we visited...

    had the combined effect of turning me off visiting my grandmother and strengthening my dislike of catholic practice


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    #84
    DavyD_83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭DavyD_83


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    So if you want a different type, get off your butt and set it up.

    I've my hands full trying to get my health service, public transport and reasonably priced reliable broadband companies of the ground at the moment.
    :pac:


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    #85
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,931 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    What an excellent point I couldn't agree more.
    Catholics are allowed to be mocked and ridiculed unfortunately
    Yet other religious groups are off limits

    Do you think the lizard people might have something to do with it Charles?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #86
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    Re OP - based on my experience as parent they are optional already.


    I am not catholic, but if I were to chose for my child a school between catholic or educate together -I'd go for catholic.

    Too much **** going on in the world/europe today, my family's tradition is christian, and I want my child to learn about that in school; I would be happy to redirect part of my taxes to have this tradition continued where I live.


    - Also, if ppl with kids don't like the schools nearby, they're free to move elsewhere, not in a catchment area of an existing catholic school - why that would not be an option ?!?


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    #87
    circadian
    Registered Users Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭circadian


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Taxpayers aren’t paying to develop anything in schools. They’re not even paying for their own children’s education. There are many churches do what you’re suggesting already, and as well as doing this, they also provide schools where parents who want that form of education for their children to continue in a formal education setting can do so, paid for by Government, not the individual taxpayer. If individual taxpayers had to pay for their own children’s education, a lot more children would miss out on the education their parents would want for them as they couldn’t afford to pay for it themselves.

    Taxpayers aren't paying for education? Who pays the teachers?


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    #88
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    mvl wrote: »
    - Also, if ppl with kids don't like the schools nearby, they're free to move elsewhere, not in a catchment area of an existing catholic school - why that would not be an option ?!?

    Of course they're free to move but people shouldn't have to or be expected to go through the hassle of moving house, changing job and all that entails so that their child doesn't get inducted into an organised religion. An opt-in policy is the best compromise.


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    #89
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    mvl wrote: »
    Too much **** going on in the world/europe today, my family's tradition is christian, and I want my child to learn about that in school; I would be happy to redirect part of my taxes to have this tradition continued where I live.

    I actually see this a lot. People taking sides. I am curious - are you saying that deep down, even though you are not Catholic, you want your kids to be taught Christianity at school (including sacraments?) so that everyone knows which 'side' you/they are on?

    I am starting to think that Islamic terrorism is the best thing to happen to 'Catholicism' in decades. It might actually save it from extinction.


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    #90
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,271 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    circadian wrote: »
    Taxpayers aren't paying for education? Who pays the teachers?

    don't engage - poster has form


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    #91
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,935 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    mvl wrote: »
    Re OP - based on my experience as parent they are optional already.


    I am not catholic, but if I were to chose for my child a school between catholic or educate together -I'd go for catholic.

    Too much **** going on in the world/europe today, my family's tradition is christian, and I want my child to learn about that in school; I would be happy to redirect part of my taxes to have this tradition continued where I live.


    - Also, if ppl with kids don't like the schools nearby, they're free to move elsewhere, not in a catchment area of an existing catholic school - why that would not be an option ?!?

    Why should a school be responsible for your religion? Religion is nothing to do with education. Teaching Christian values is a matter for parents not teachers.

    Religion is a personal matter. School is not the place for it. Unless you are covering in objectivity all religions as a subject, not exercising it.


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