Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

Frankie Machine · 28-08-2020 2:59am

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Sounds like basically everything that was written about catholics in the north of this country by British media in the 60s/70s/80s/90s.

The north of this island, you mean.

Which is not this 'country', but a foreign country. Whether we like it or not.

Frankie Machine · 28-08-2020 3:03am

Brian? wrote: »

I ignore the looting. Because it's a distraction

it's too often used to delegitimise perfectly legitimate protests.

Hang on. It's one or the other, it can't be both.

everlast75 · 28-08-2020 9:03am

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Trespassers.

They've been charged, which means that a couple who are under criminal indictment are welcomed to the White House. The point is the same. Stop splitting hairs.

"The Missouri couple seen in a viral video brandishing guns at protesters outside their mansion have been charged, the St. Louis circuit attorney said Monday. Patricia and Mark McCloskey are charged with unlawful use of a weapon, a class E felony"

everlast75 · 28-08-2020 9:10am

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Hang on. It's one or the other, it can't be both.

There can't be peaceful protesters marching while others loot?

As far as I can see, facts don't matter in this argument. It's similar to arguing against someone who if a pro-gun, or an evangelical. They twist and turn whilst ignoring the larger point.

There is systematic racism in the U.S.

The president is a racist.

The president supports police brutality.

People are now catching acts of racism on camera and are angry as hell.

I don't agree with looting. Biden doesn't agree with looting.

But as long as people don't see why black people are angry or disenfranchised, then they of course won't agree with any form of protest.

kellier180 · 28-08-2020 9:42am

everlast75 wrote: »

The president is a racist.

How is he a racist? Are black communities not doing better now than they have ever done?

Retr0gamer · 28-08-2020 9:58am

kellier180 wrote: »

How is he a racist? Are black communities not doing better now than they have ever done?

If doing better than they have ever done you mean they are dying more than white people to Corona, still suffering from police brutality that their president endorses, suffering from record unemployment and still are disproportionately at the lower rungs of the socio-economic ladder then yes, they are doing better now than they have ever done.

StringerBell · 28-08-2020 9:58am

kellier180 wrote: »

How is he a racist? Are black communities not doing better now than they have ever done?

Honestly, it's been done to death at this point. If you "don't know" how Trump is racist at this point or claim not to understand why someone would say such a thing then you will never get it so don't worry about it.

Tacitus Kilgore · 28-08-2020 10:09am

Frankie Machine wrote: »

The north of this island, you mean.

Which is not this 'country', but a foreign country. Whether we like it or not.

So you bothered quoting and replying to my post with that response? Why?

JimmyVik · 28-08-2020 10:15am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

They're enriching themselves for one, as the opacity and evasion regarding what happens with the donations they receive shows. They are also channeling a significant portion of the money towards the Democratic party, who just happen to be fully in support of them.

The DA in the Brooks case is up for election, and throwing **** at the wall hoping to get up support. He's also under multiple investigations for corruption himself. The charges are junk, fighting the police and taking their weapon is going to get you shot, all day long

Also a lot of people enriching their social media profiles.
Never underestimate what someone will do for likes on social media.

AbusesToilets · 28-08-2020 4:48pm

guitarhappy wrote: »

Keep in mind that burning cars and buildings, or looting, are valid forms of social protest by dis-enfranchised people's. They are NOT crimes of violence, although they are often mislabeled as such. They are property crimes.

Crimes of violence are committed against the body of human beings, people. Black people are simply saying "Stop murdering us in cold blood. Stop shooting unarmed Black people in the back. Get your jack boot off my throat."

Socially protesting by stealing Gucci and Apple? Funny how they seek to protest racism by destroying black businesses and communities.

AbusesToilets · 28-08-2020 4:49pm

Brian? wrote: »

It’s funny how you started with the opinion that the killing was “absolutely justified”

Yes, that's my opinion, based on observing the video of the incidents.

Retr0gamer · 28-08-2020 4:57pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Yes, that's my opinion, based on observing the video of the incidents.

So an ignorant opinion based on confirmation bias and seeing stuff on the intrawebs.

Water John · 28-08-2020 5:01pm

It's 'videos of the incident'. The first video show the police clearly have Jacob on the ground. the second one shows him coming around the car, followed by two police men with their guns drawn and pointing at him walking away.
So three police failed tom hold him on the ground. So they end up shooting him seven/eight times instead.
Anyone with a basic grasp of the time when you're allowed deploy your weapon as a police officer would know, this incident doesn't come anywhere near the threshold. How us posters 'feel' about it doesn't dictate the rules of engagement.

AbusesToilets · 28-08-2020 5:03pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So an ignorant opinion based on confirmation bias and seeing stuff on the intrawebs.

That would be your opinion. The video is fairly conclusive in showing the event. The kid was chased by the crowd initially, corned and attacked by the first individual. He shot him, then fled from the crowd again. He was hit, knocked down and set upon by more individuals. He then shot two of the persons attacking him, got up and moved to the police's location.

Do you dispute those events?

28-08-2020 5:47pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That would be your opinion. The video is fairly conclusive in showing the event. The kid was chased by the crowd initially, corned and attacked by the first individual. He shot him, then fled from the crowd again. He was hit, knocked down and set upon by more individuals. He then shot two of the persons attacking him, got up and moved to the police's location.

Do you dispute those events?

If you had a look at Wisconsin laws, shooting a man in the head is not considered an acceptable or legal response.. He then went on to shooting another man multiple times. On top of that he is on video boasting about using legal response. After the first killing he took a fecking phonecall... So I don't imagine any of the above will work in his favour when he has his day in court.

AbusesToilets · 28-08-2020 6:52pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you had a look at Wisconsin laws, shooting a man in the head is not considered an acceptable or legal response.. He then went on to shooting another man multiple times. On top of that he is on video boasting about using legal response. After the first killing he took a fecking phonecall... So I don't imagine any of the above will work in his favour when he has his day in court.

So you don't dispute the sequence of events I laid out above? Everything you have stated is your opinion, as is my view of it being self defense.

29-08-2020 1:45am

Water John wrote: »

It's 'videos of the incident'. The first video show the police clearly have Jacob on the ground. the second one shows him coming around the car, followed by two police men with their guns drawn and pointing at him walking away.
So three police failed tom hold him on the ground. So they end up shooting him seven/eight times instead.
Anyone with a basic grasp of the time when you're allowed deploy your weapon as a police officer would know, this incident doesn't come anywhere near the threshold. How us posters 'feel' about it doesn't dictate the rules of engagement.

So he broke free and was heading for the drivers side of the car? What for? How where the cops to assess his intentions and what exactly he was seeking in the front seat of the car. Was it a gun, a knife. What happens if it is a gun??

guitarhappy · 29-08-2020 2:27am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So he broke free and was heading for the drivers side of the car? What for? How where the cops to assess his intentions and what exactly he was seeking in the front seat of the car. Was it a gun, a knife. What happens if it is a gun??

my

Usually it is not a gun. The overwhelming majority of US police who die on the job die of heart attack or car crash.

What if he was going to his car for his license and registration? His water bottle? His bible? Shoot an innocent man 7 times in the back anyway?

guitarhappy · 29-08-2020 2:32am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Socially protesting by stealing Gucci and Apple? Funny how they seek to protest racism by destroying black businesses and communities.

Yes. Socially protesting by stealing Gucci and Apple and burning whatever they want.

It's not your place to tell oppressed people how to protest and it's the height of hubris to think that any groups form of protest has to appease your sensibilities.

Chips Lovell · 29-08-2020 7:34am

As with a lot of political or social issues, a good way of assessing whether your views may be skewed by your own biases or prejudices is to ask yourself what the reaction would be if the boot were on the other foot?

How would you feel if, statistically speaking, white people were more likely to be shot by the police? What would your reaction be if a black counter-demonstrator shot some white people? Or indeed, what would the police reaction be if a black man showed up with an assault rifle?

29-08-2020 8:23am

guitarhappy wrote: »

my

Usually it is not a gun. The overwhelming majority of US police who die on the job die of heart attack or car crash.

What if he was going to his car for his license and registration? His water bottle? His bible? Shoot an innocent man 7 times in the back anyway?

He shouldn't be moving anywhere when directed not to.

Did you seriously give the example of going for his license and registration or are you joking. You think with cops shouting at him to not move he was saying "I'm just getting my registration book from the car officer". Unbelievable.

looksee · 29-08-2020 9:10am

IF he were going for a gun then the time to shoot him is when you see the gun in his hand as he backs out of the car and turns to shoot. There is absolutely no reason at at all to shoot someone in the back unless he offers an immediate threat. At that stage he did not. You can't go around shooting people for maybes and possiblys.

However, the whole US attitude to the military (these guys are not protecting the fatherland, they are meddling in other countries), to police (who calls armed cops to sort out a minor discipline problem in a primary school?) and to guns is so far off the wall though that there is really no point discussing it. Eventually they will grow out of this adolescent 'I can do what I want' approach to life, but in the meantime they will just keep killing each other.

Melanchthon · 29-08-2020 9:37am

Chips Lovell wrote: »

As with a lot of political or social issues, a good way of assessing whether your views may be skewed by your own biases or prejudices is to ask yourself what the reaction would be if the boot were on the other foot?

How would you feel if, statistically speaking, white people were more likely to be shot by the police? What would your reaction be if a black counter-demonstrator shot some white people? Or indeed, what would the police reaction be if a black man showed up with an assault rifle?

Thats fair but this type of thinking should also be applied to the blind support or excuses given by those of a liberal persuasion to any to anything relating to protests and/or civil disorder in the US at the minute.

Look at Minneapolis this week the man, probably a murder, shot himself on video but still the place burns, you can watch a video online of people at the scene of the incident yelling at the police that they just saw them shoot the suspect, like they literally believe they saw the cops shoot him despite it being one of the cleanest cut cases of suicide possible.

Basically if the community responds that way to a murder blowing his own head off (visibly and publicly shared) there is something messed up about the community aside from an issues with policing and trite comparisons with northern Ireland are meaningless.

Chips Lovell · 29-08-2020 10:09am

Yeah, there is a tendency among a lot of people to get so emotionally invested invested their "side" of the debate that they end up blindly defending something simply because the other side condemns it, and hey find themselves making excuses for rioting or shootings.

29-08-2020 12:05pm

looksee wrote: »

IF he were going for a gun then the time to shoot him is when you see the gun in his hand as he backs out of the car and turns to shoot.

Yeah I'm sure that's what you would do faced with the possibility of being killed in the line of duty.

Comply with the orders of the police.

29-08-2020 12:10pm

Tge solution to all of this is the removal of guns from American life.

The next best solution is to comply with the police.

The police are not guilt free either. Kneeling on someone's neck needs to be outlawed too. But as things stand the police are facing the possibility of being shot in the line of duty. They have to protect themselves in difficult situations. And it's not just black people getting shot by the police.

Gerry Hatrick · 29-08-2020 12:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Tge solution to all of this is the removal of guns from American life.

The next best solution is to comply with the police.

The police are not guilt free either. Kneeling on someone's neck needs to be outlawed too. But as things stand the police are facing the possibility of being shot in the line of duty. They have to protect themselves in difficult situations. And it's not just black people getting shot by the police.

As regards the guns that will never happen and if you've ever spent any considerable time living or travelling in America and i mean not NY/LA/Orlando etc.. you'd know this.

Water John · 29-08-2020 12:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah I'm sure that's what you would do faced with the possibility of being killed in the line of duty.

Comply with the orders of the police.

Both of us may disagree with Jacob's resistance to arrest but that does not constitute good reason for shooting him.

29-08-2020 12:30pm

Water John wrote: »

Both of us may disagree with Jacob's resistance to arrest but that does not constitute good reason for shooting him.

Those cops know it's not like the movies where one shot and someone is down. If Blake reaches the front seat and has a gun he will likely get shots away before he can be stopped. He is a big strong man.

Cops who are out on the beat every day are not going to let things get that close to disaster or else they know one day they will be killed in the line of duty.

The cops that shot Blake will not be convicted.

Dempo1 · 29-08-2020 12:46pm

This is becoming tiresome, there's absolutely no denying there has been some appalling police behaviour but I the reaction is turning into farce. I note in part direct family members, most of whom have either not spoken to or seen loved ones who've been shot in year's , indeed they quickly air brush some chequered pasts, some involving serious and violent offences I'm not defending the indefensible but it seems to me these ghastly & horrid families find the law as quickly has they find God and Lawyers. I watch us news channels and its telling how ambulance chasing lawyers change the narrative, its become an unseemingly money chasing charade that has little to do with BLM and more to do with lining grubby pockets. I will say George Floyd's family are the exception but beyond that, just trailer park trash.

Brian? · 29-08-2020 1:17pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

As with a lot of political or social issues, a good way of assessing whether your views may be skewed by your own biases or prejudices is to ask yourself what the reaction would be if the boot were on the other foot?

How would you feel if, statistically speaking, white people were more likely to be shot by the police? What would your reaction be if a black counter-demonstrator shot some white people? Or indeed, what would the police reaction be if a black man showed up with an assault rifle?

A fine example of this:

The NRA supported new laws to curb the right to open carry in California signed into law by Governor Reagan. Why? Because the Black Panthers were open carrying rifles and shotguns at political rallies.

Water John · 29-08-2020 4:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Those cops know it's not like the movies where one shot and someone is down. If Blake reaches the front seat and has a gun he will likely get shots away before he can be stopped. He is a big strong man.

Cops who are out on the beat every day are not going to let things get that close to disaster or else they know one day they will be killed in the line of duty.

The cops that shot Blake will not be convicted.

Exactly, it isn't the movies, it's reality. The reality is, their rules of engagement, which they failed to adhere to.

Anybody's personal opinion as to whether they think of them as trailer trash or worthy citizens is irrelevent. They are all human beings.

Manic Moran · 29-08-2020 5:24pm

IF he were going for a gun then the time to shoot him is when you see the gun in his hand as he backs out of the car and turns to shoot. There is absolutely no reason at at all to shoot someone in the back unless he offers an immediate threat.

People normally can't react that quickly. I played 'bad guy' in one very similar exercise. I snuck a pistol through a checkpoint in a compartment in the car, and managed to shoot two out of five with it when I opened the door and pretended to get into the car before getting shot myself. It's one of the reasons that people are occasionally shot in the back in the US, by the time an officer has recognized the threat and reacted to it, the suspect has turned, fired, and turned back.

snow scorpion · 29-08-2020 7:12pm

Mod Snip

No memes

Thanks

AbusesToilets · 29-08-2020 8:02pm

guitarhappy wrote: »

Yes. Socially protesting by stealing Gucci and Apple and burning whatever they want.

It's not your place to tell oppressed people how to protest and it's the height of hubris to think that any groups form of protest has to appease your sensibilities.

I'm sure the members of their own communities, who have seen their businesses destroyed might have something to say.

To call black people in the US oppressed is laughable. They live in one of the best societies in the world, that's statistically safer than at anytime previously. They enjoy numerous privileges and advantages afforded them under the auspices of equality.

listermint · 29-08-2020 9:21pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

People normally can't react that quickly. I played 'bad guy' in one very similar exercise. I snuck a pistol through a checkpoint in a compartment in the car, and managed to shoot two out of five with it when I opened the door and pretended to get into the car before getting shot myself. It's one of the reasons that people are occasionally shot in the back in the US, by the time an officer has recognized the threat and reacted to it, the suspect has turned, fired, and turned back.

The over militarisation of policing in the US is the core problem . Military weapons and vehicles should be removed and then banned and all links to military training in house or outside should be banned. It serves no purpose in conventional policing. What it does is serve to treat all citizens as a threat regardless of the scenario.

The continuation of existing policies only serves in the end game being completely messed up relationships between normal citizens of all walks of life and the departments meant to serve and protect the communities.

But as with anything in the state's it's solely about money , money money and more money. it's the reason the US is in such disarray.

rossie1977 · 29-08-2020 9:32pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'm sure the members of their own communities, who have seen their businesses destroyed might have something to say.

To call black people in the US oppressed is laughable. They live in one of the best societies in the world, that's statistically safer than at anytime previously. They enjoy numerous privileges and advantages afforded them under the auspices of equality.

And yet black males are six times more likely to be shot by police than a white male.

There are more black men in American prisons right now per 100,000 population than there were black men in South African prisons at the height of apartheid.

A black man is far more likely to be stopped and searched by police than a white man. Trevor Noah mentioned being stopped more than 30 times by police his first year in the US.

We saw the overwhelming abuse that black sports stars received when they tried to peacefully protest few years back. High profile players fired, merchandise burned, the current president calling them traitors.

America portrays its as a land of equality but reality is black people are still treated like second class citizens there.

AbusesToilets · 29-08-2020 9:42pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

And yet black males are six times more likely to be shot by police than a white male.

There are more black men in American prisons right now per 100,000 population than there were black men in South African prisons at the height of apartheid.

A black man is far more likely to be stopped and searched by police than a white man. Trevor Noah mentioned being stopped more than 30 times by police his first year in the US.

We saw the overwhelming abuse that black sports stars received when they tried to peacefully protest few years back. High profile players fired, merchandise burned, the current president calling them traitors.

America portrays its as a land of equality but reality is black people are still treated like second class citizens there.

Black people account for over 50% of violent crime and murder, mostly of other black people. Yet they account for ~13% of the population. You can't claim that they are unfairly targeted by police when they perpetuate the majority of serious crime.

Overheal · 29-08-2020 11:09pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Black people account for over 50% of violent crime and murder, mostly of other black people. Yet they account for ~13% of the population. You can't claim that they are unfairly targeted by police when they perpetuate the majority of serious crime.

Yet black people are treated unfairly when they are interacted with by police because of these preconceived notions. "Oh a black person, good chance they're a criminal." "A white person, nothing unusual there"

rossie1977 · 29-08-2020 11:26pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Black people account for over 50% of violent crime and murder, mostly of other black people.

50% of arrests for violent crime which isn't the same thing..

The vast majority of murders are by people who know each other either family members, friends or neighbours. So yes it's mostly black people killing black people, whites killing whites, hispanics killing hispanics.

Violent crime tends to be associated more with poorer neighbourhoods anyway, same with countries. Outside the US every highly developed nation has low homicide rates. In Europe the poorest nations like Moldova and Estonia the homicide rate is much higher.

You can't claim that they are unfairly targeted by police when they perpetuate the majority of serious crime.

The vast majority of people in us prisons aren't there for violent crime though. Majority are there for drug offences. You are 12 times more likely to be convicted of a crime and sent to prison if caught with drugs in the US if you are black instead of white!

AbusesToilets · 29-08-2020 11:44pm

Overheal wrote: »

Yet black people are treated unfairly when they are interacted with by police because of these preconceived notions. "Oh a black person, good chance they're a criminal." "A white person, nothing unusual there"

An empty generalisation, devoid of context and substance.

AbusesToilets · 29-08-2020 11:49pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

50% of arrests for violent crime which isn't the same thing..

The vast majority of murders are by people who know each other either family members, friends or neighbours. So yes it's mostly black people killing black people, whites killing whites, hispanics killing hispanics.

Violent crime tends to be associated more with poorer neighbourhoods anyway, same with countries. Outside the US every highly developed nation has low homicide rates. In Europe the poorest nations like Moldova and Estonia the homicide rate is much higher.

The vast majority of people in us prisons aren't there for violent crime though. Majority are there for drug offences. You are 12 times more likely to be convicted of a crime and sent to prison if caught with drugs in the US if you are black instead of white!

50% of murders, according to FBI data. That's not something to be had waved away. The violence seen in black communities is endemic and largely ignored by politicians in favour of stoking outrage

rossie1977 · 30-08-2020 12:19pm

Once again violence and crime tends to be endemic to poorer neighbourhoods not black neighbourhoods in particular.

The argument that politicians in the US ignore crime is nonsense. Nowhere on earth has a bigger prison population per capita than the US. The American police are basically militarized in nature and the US is quickly becoming a police state.. that doesn't happen without the full backing and financial support of politicians on both sides.

Instead of dealing with the actual issues and causes of crime ie poverty, lack of education, facilities etc the US governments have continued to arm police with more weapons, built more prisons and arrested more citizens.

Brian? · 30-08-2020 12:26pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'm sure the members of their own communities, who have seen their businesses destroyed might have something to say.

To call black people in the US oppressed is laughable. They live in one of the best societies in the world, that's statistically safer than at anytime previously. They enjoy numerous privileges and advantages afforded them under the auspices of equality.

Those uppity black lads should just shut up and count their blessings?

You realise that people said exactly the same sort of tripe during the civil rights movement in the 60s.

Water John · 30-08-2020 12:31pm

Brian? wrote: »

Those uppity black lads should just shut up and count their blessings?

You realise that people said exactly the same sort of tripe during the civil rights movement in the 60s.

And 100 years before that. They even fought a war over it. Trump supports the side that lost.

AbusesToilets · 30-08-2020 2:58pm

Brian? wrote: »

Those uppity black lads should just shut up and count their blessings?

You realise that people said exactly the same sort of tripe during the civil rights movement in the 60s.

It wasn't Uppity Blacks claiming they are oppressed, it was posters on here. Please tell me how you feel they are oppressed? Having worked extensively in countries where the government actually oppresses it's citizens, I can say it's an utterly fallacious argument.

Brian? · 30-08-2020 4:19pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It wasn't Uppity Blacks claiming they are oppressed, it was posters on here. Please tell me how you feel they are oppressed? Having worked extensively in countries where the government actually oppresses it's citizens, I can say it's an utterly fallacious argument.

Oppression isn’t some sort of binary situation. There are degrees.

How are they oppressed? They’re six times more likely to be shot dead by the police than white men. I think that’s the most salient point for this thread.

Nice deflection by the way. Your point of “why are people complaining, they’ve never had it better” is comically bad. Fallacious some might say.

everlast75 · 30-08-2020 5:31pm

everlast75 wrote: »

This guy has Carlson and Coulter painting him out to be a hero. You have Gaetz calling for more.

You have this guy front and centre at a Trump rally.

As ridiculous as it sounds, whilst he won't be invited, expect words from DJT both sides-ing the incident.

The above post was about the shooter.

And here you have it

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1300079126783688713?s=09

AbusesToilets · 30-08-2020 8:46pm

Brian? wrote: »

Oppression isn’t some sort of binary situation. There are degrees.

How are they oppressed? They’re six times more likely to be shot dead by the police than white men. I think that’s the most salient point for this thread.

Nice deflection by the way. Your point of “why are people complaining, they’ve never had it better” is comically bad. Fallacious some might say.

Again that statistic that conveniently ignores why they might be more likely to be shot ( by black and Hispanic officers to boot). You, undoubtedly, posit that to racism. I would say it's due to the higher levels of criminality on their communities, specifically violent crime.

As to your second, US society is safer than it has ever been historically. Crime and murder rates have been falling for decades. That's all easily verifiable, unlike many of the generalisations you are prone to issuing.

Brian? · 31-08-2020 6:22am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Again that statistic that conveniently ignores why they might be more likely to be shot ( by black and Hispanic officers to boot). You, undoubtedly, posit that to racism. I would say it's due to the higher levels of criminality on their communities, specifically violent crime.

Some if is due to higher crime rates among minority communities. The statistic doesn't "conveniently ignore" anything, it's a number incapable of feeling.

As to your second, US society is safer than it has ever been historically. Crime and murder rates have been falling for decades. That's all easily verifiable, unlike many of the generalisations you are prone to issuing.

By this logic no would ever protest anything, each generation has it better because the last generation made positive changes to improve society. If everyone just sat on their hands now and did nothing there would be zero progression.

Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

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