The Crooked Blue Line

pure.conya wrote: »

however shocking, i don't know if you realise this or not but this happened in another country

That's true, but let's not kid ourselves that we don't have significant issues within our own police force as well as we've seen time and again over the years - even in recent times we've had the McCabe saga, breathalyser scandal, evidence disappearing from Garda stations, guys getting into accidents because they were driving cars they weren't qualified to, the involvement in the water charges protests (more of a FG issue to be fair as AGS were used as private security), how Gardai found out can usually just retire early with no real penalty and their pension... and so on.

The new chief in fairness seems to be taking a harder line on a lot of this stuff to his credit, but there's a long way to go yet.

bubblypop wrote: »

You really need to get your facts right.

Really? How so? Did we not have a penalty points/breathalyser scandal? Was Maurice McCabe not seen as a "rat" and ostracised by his supposed colleagues? Have we not seen Gardai found guilty of wrong doing allowed to retire early rather than face charges? Have we not seen accidents where Gardai were found to be driving on "chief's permission" because they hadn't done the necessary tests?

I stand to be corrected, but aren't you a member yourself? (although even that term smacks of some sort of club house mentality). Might that be colouring your view?

bubblypop wrote: »

You really need to get your facts right.

I'd love to state my facts - but I can't yet.

They are truly unbelievable, yet totally true. Even the solicitors representing me did not believe such incompetence could happen until they saw the evidence.

Funny, one decent garda said that this station has a "reputation".

This seems to be correctional officers as opposed to police.

OK, let's give examples...

bubblypop wrote: »

Maurice McCabe was not ostracised by his actual (dont know why you think they are 'supposed') colleagues. He said himself he got great support from his colleagues.

https://www.thejournal.ie/maurice-mccabe-called-a-rat-tribunal-3509099-Jul2017/

GARDA WHISTLEBLOWER SERGEANT Maurice McCabe was the subject of “hostility and enmity” within the gardaí, the Charleton tribunal has heard.

McCabe’s barrister Michael McDowell said that while evidence had been given that garda witnesses never discussed McCabe, he was the subject of “a good deal of hostility and enmity from certain sources in the Cavan-Monaghan division”.

The tribunal was also told McCabe was bullied, and called a “rat” on social media, McDowell said.

"Supposed" colleagues (as that seems to have thrown you off) refers to the behaviour of people who he'd have worked closely with, were probably friends, and certainly not what you'd expect to happen in any situation - but especially not from within AGS

bubblypop wrote:

gardai may resign from their job, same as anyone. They are not entitled to a pension if they have not completed their service.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/suspended-garda-officer-set-to-retire-in-coming-months-1.3748088

The vast majority of investigations conducted by Gsoc into members of the force must cease if the Garda member under investigation resigns or retires

Handy that!

bubblypop wrote:

Gardai do indeed drive on Chiefs Permission, hardly anything to do with corruption, it is clearly a lack of training. Nothing to do with corruption.

Incompetence and dangerous would be a better descriptor given there has been at least one fatality involved as I recall.

bubblypop wrote:

there was indeed tickets being cancelled for friends by management, which was investigated fully I believe.

https://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/hundreds-of-gardai-abused-driving-penalty-point-system-as-fines-and-points-wiped-36370346.html

Seems to have been a lot more extensive than "management" now to be fair!

The watchdog warned that superintendents and inspectors wiped points and fines for driving offences outside their geographical area, contrary to policy.

Almost three quarters of the records of notices being cancelled did not carry any sufficient rationale for the action.

Some 442 officers were authorised to wipe fixed charge notices in the four years from 2009 to 2012, the report found.

The Garda Ombudsman also found that some serving gardai used the credentials of retired senior colleagues, who would have had the authority to cancel the penalties, in order to wipe the slate clean for friends and relatives.

Here's another one I referenced above:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/money-seized-as-evidence-by-garda%C3%AD-goes-missing-14-times-in-three-years-1.3686113

Money taken into evidence by gardaí went missing from stations on more than a dozen occasions over a three-year period.*

Between January 1st, 2015, and December 31st, 2017, 14 sums of money confiscated by gardaí as part of investigations disappeared from the evidence storage facilities of stations around the country.

How does money just "disappear" from I assume secure lockups in Garda stations?

bubblypop wrote:

I agree there maybe incompetence, all in all, AGS are not a corrupt organisation.

Hmmm....

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The new chief in fairness seems to be taking a harder line on a lot of this stuff to his credit, but there's a long way to go yet.

My view is that there is a very deliberate reason why a former deputy head of the PSNI got the top job here - to give the joint a clean out from the top down.

A proper hard nut prepared to take the hard line without fear nor favour.

The scandals over the past few years seem to come at them hard and fast, not all are bad but the seemingly inability to show transparent changes as a results of some of the scandals is dogging them.

There is also a bit of a culture shock as they are going from an organization that may have liked the respect it has gotten in past and have grown entitled to it to one that is not looked upon favorably.

I would love a replay of the little pay stunt they did a few years back, id say the government would have support to tell them to get their house in order before they be given anything.

While the whole force is not corrupt, the nature in which they circle the wagons and shelter their own is bad as they essentially work for themselves and not the state.

Example of the entitled behavior: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/solicitor-whose-home-was-raided-in-catastrophic-mistake-settles-court-action-1.4095775

Matt Barrett wrote: »

IMO Garda deserve respect because of the work they do. They are human. I think a big problem, like with the legal and medical professions was people within and without putting them up on some kind of higher moral level simply based on their job. As with the aforementioned you will have blagards take advantage of that trust and place in society.
We should never judge someone positively or negatively simply based on their job.

There is a big difference between respecting the individual versus the organization. I know a couple of serving members through family who are decent folk but it doesn't mean i won't critique the organization on a whole.

The problem with pointing out that its only a small number of individuals and not all Guards is that until they have a transparent and culture of accountability then its very very hard to trust how corrupt the organization is.

Also on the whole moral front they are afforded certain privilege to do their job that ordinary citizens do not, so yes they must be above reproach when going about their job. A cute hoor in the force should not be tolerated, thats how we get the likes of the credit union fiasco in Templemore.

Calhoun wrote: »

You a serving corrupt member yourself?

That's a bit far now in fairness, but as I said above, they are a member alright as far as I recall (although that point was ignored in the initial response), so it's only natural to defend one's job and colleagues to an extent if so.

However, regardless of that, asking things like what happened to McCabe, claiming that money going missing from evidence was from "years gone by" when it happened as recently as 2 years ago from the article I referenced, ignoring the point that Gardai were using credentials of retired senior colleagues to cancel penalty points (doesn't say much for their IT security either) but claiming it was "management" alone, and other such statements in the posts above don't add much to the defence of AGS.

No one has said that every individual Garda is corrupt, lazy or incompetent, but there are enough that fit that bill (as we've seen time and again) to undermine the force as a whole and discredit the good work that is done.

The rot seems to extend from rank and file to the senior management team, so it's a very good thing that the latest commissioner (unlike his recent predecessors) is an outsider who seems to be taking a zero tolerance approach to this stuff.

At a time when trust and credibility in the force has been badly hit in the eyes of the public, you'd think any decent Garda who takes their job and the responsibility it comes with seriously would welcome such reforms and do everything they can to support and cooperate with them - not attempt to play down the problems we all know exist.

I hope he (Harris) succeeds because the only other alternative is to completely dismantle and rebuild the force from the ground up RUC/PSNI style. The secretive "us vs them" Garda clubhouse mentality has no place in a modern accountable police force, which is what this country badly needs.