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The Crooked Blue Line
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That's a bit far now in fairness, but as I said above, they are a member alright as far as I recall (although that point was ignored in the initial response), so it's only natural to defend one's job and colleagues to an extent if so.
However, regardless of that, asking things like what happened to McCabe, claiming that money going missing from evidence was from "years gone by" when it happened as recently as 2 years ago from the article I referenced, ignoring the point that Gardai were using credentials of retired senior colleagues to cancel penalty points (doesn't say much for their IT security either) but claiming it was "management" alone, and other such statements in the posts above don't add much to the defence of AGS.
No one has said that every individual Garda is corrupt, lazy or incompetent, but there are enough that fit that bill (as we've seen time and again) to undermine the force as a whole and discredit the good work that is done.
The rot seems to extend from rank and file to the senior management team, so it's a very good thing that the latest commissioner (unlike his recent predecessors) is an outsider who seems to be taking a zero tolerance approach to this stuff.
At a time when trust and credibility in the force has been badly hit in the eyes of the public, you'd think any decent Garda who takes their job and the responsibility it comes with seriously would welcome such reforms and do everything they can to support and cooperate with them - not attempt to play down the problems we all know exist.
I hope he (Harris) succeeds because the only other alternative is to completely dismantle and rebuild the force from the ground up RUC/PSNI style. The secretive "us vs them" Garda clubhouse mentality has no place in a modern accountable police force, which is what this country badly needs.
Yes it is a bit much, which is why I ignored it.
I am most certainly not corrupt & neither is anyone I know in the job.
I would be the first to report corruption.
But I am also fair & just, & I state the truth.
Everyone, particularly Gardai want to have a professional force, unfortunately what is happening at the moment with the changes the new commissioner is making, that won't happen. But that is for another thread.
AGS is not a corrupt organisation. I would advise anyone who believes it is to never travel overseas!
Yep, there are some bad, lazy, incompetent members as there is in any organisation, but it is far far from a corrupt organisation.0 -
Yes it is a bit much, which is why I ignored it.
I am most certainly not corrupt & neither is anyone I know in the job.
I would be the first to report corruption.
But I am also fair & just, & I state the truth.
Everyone, particularly Gardai want to have a professional force, unfortunately what is happening at the moment with the changes the new commissioner is making, that won't happen. But that is for another thread.
AGS is not a corrupt organisation. I would advise anyone who believes it is to never travel overseas!
Yep, there are some bad, lazy, incompetent members as there is in any organisation, but it is far far from a corrupt organisation.
Firstly, and genuinely, fair play to you for this response - a lot more transparent and open than some of your replies above.
Your personal attitude to the job is commendable given the very real and serious impact it has on our society and individuals therein. It absolutely needs to be taken seriously and approached properly.
I'm curious why you think Harris won't succeed though. So far he seems to be instituting changes to do away with the "be grand" approaches so common in Ireland generally, and he certainly seems tougher on wrong doing than either of his 2 most recent predecessors.
Unless you mean that his approach is splitting the force(?) but that to me is part of the problem if so - the clubhouse policing I keep referring to has to end and if some don't like the changes needed to do that, well that's just tough really.
What police forces elsewhere do or don't do is irrelevant to be honest. Here in Ireland we have significant issues within our own as anyone who follows the news can plainly see and that's what we need to fix - so that individuals like yourself can get on with the job without fear or favour holding you back.0 -
I'm curious why you think Harris won't succeed though. So far he seems to be instituting changes to do away with the "be grand" approaches so common in Ireland generally, and he certainly seems tougher on wrong doing than either of his 2 most recent predecessors..
It's not that I don't believe he will succeed. The changes he is making to the organisation are not, imo, good for policing.
This is nothing to do with discipline, anyone who does wrong should be disciplined.
I guess I believe that AGS need to be part of the community in order to serve the community properly. The way the force is going however, there are less & less Gardai on the street & rural communities hardly ever see gardai. The changes the new commissioner is bringing in are not changing this.
Like every other commissioner, he is out to further his own career, I suppose I would like to see a commissioner who wants the best for the community & the members of his force.0 -
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It's not that I don't believe he will succeed. The changes he is making to the organisation are not, imo, good for policing.
This is nothing to do with discipline, anyone who does wrong should be disciplined.
I guess I believe that AGS need to be part of the community in order to serve the community properly. The way the force is going however, there are less & less Gardai on the street & rural communities hardly ever see gardai. The changes the new commissioner is bringing in are not changing this.
Like every other commissioner, he is out to further his own career, I suppose I would like to see a commissioner who wants the best for the community & the members of his force.
To be fair to Harris, I don't think he is looking for a further career move, isn't he 54 already?0 -
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That's a bit far now in fairness, but as I said above, they are a member alright as far as I recall (although that point was ignored in the initial response), so it's only natural to defend one's job and colleagues to an extent if so.
However, regardless of that, asking things like what happened to McCabe, claiming that money going missing from evidence was from "years gone by" when it happened as recently as 2 years ago from the article I referenced, ignoring the point that Gardai were using credentials of retired senior colleagues to cancel penalty points (doesn't say much for their IT security either) but claiming it was "management" alone, and other such statements in the posts above don't add much to the defence of AGS.
No one has said that every individual Garda is corrupt, lazy or incompetent, but there are enough that fit that bill (as we've seen time and again) to undermine the force as a whole and discredit the good work that is done.
The rot seems to extend from rank and file to the senior management team, so it's a very good thing that the latest commissioner (unlike his recent predecessors) is an outsider who seems to be taking a zero tolerance approach to this stuff.
At a time when trust and credibility in the force has been badly hit in the eyes of the public, you'd think any decent Garda who takes their job and the responsibility it comes with seriously would welcome such reforms and do everything they can to support and cooperate with them - not attempt to play down the problems we all know exist.
I hope he (Harris) succeeds because the only other alternative is to completely dismantle and rebuild the force from the ground up RUC/PSNI style. The secretive "us vs them" Garda clubhouse mentality has no place in a modern accountable police force, which is what this country badly needs.
I know its a bit far but as the member in question was playing games and deflecting everything negative that was said i had to ask the question if they had something to hide and if that was why they were so defensive. It was either that or they have been away from Ireland for a few years as they seem very ignorant to some fairly serious current affairs related to the Garda.
Furthermore if they are a serving member it is very stupid and id say bordering on unprofessional to get involved in a heated debate online.
Agreed they are not adding much to the conversation, all we can talk about is what happens in the media. If they know more about what goes on behind the scenes its not enough for us to take their word for it wink wink style and they cannot come out right and say exactly what punishment would have went on. We only have to look at the reporting controversy to see that it was down to the lowest members cooking the books but apparently that is lost on the poor serving member.
I see Harris as a good thing, and i welcome future commissioners to be outsiders. Anyone against the changes generally i would class as somone who works for themselves or as someone on the thread called it blueglue. I hope we see a cull of anyone who doesn't get with the program.0 -
Yes it is a bit much, which is why I ignored it.
I am most certainly not corrupt & neither is anyone I know in the job.
I would be the first to report corruption.
But I am also fair & just, & I state the truth.
Everyone, particularly Gardai want to have a professional force, unfortunately what is happening at the moment with the changes the new commissioner is making, that won't happen. But that is for another thread.
AGS is not a corrupt organisation. I would advise anyone who believes it is to never travel overseas!
Yep, there are some bad, lazy, incompetent members as there is in any organisation, but it is far far from a corrupt organisation.
You are probably not corrupt but did you push for a wage increase around Christmas 2016? This would be around the time you boys were cooking the books regarding breath test and the road numbers?
You also seem to either not lived in Ireland for the past couple of years or ignorant to the public concerns to current affairs. Your then coming at it from the perspective of you know better because your a serving member wink wink and that there is an answer for everything.
You don't agree there is corruption in the force but then again, if anything on this thread you seem to see no evil and hear no evil.0 -
You are probably not corrupt but did you push for a wage increase around Christmas 2016? This would be around the time you boys were cooking the books regarding breath test and the road numbers?
You also seem to either not lived in Ireland for the past couple of years or ignorant to the public concerns to current affairs. Your then coming at it from the perspective of you know better because your a serving member wink wink and that there is an answer for everything.
You don't agree there is corruption in the force but then again, if anything on this thread you seem to see no evil and hear no evil.
No actually, I don't have a family so my wages are alright for me. Others were struggling.
I'm not wink wink -ing at anything
There are, of course some bad members, of course there are. There are lazy incompetent ones also.
But as a whole, the organisation is not corrupt. Does not always work the best way it should but definitely not corrupt.
& of course members feel aggrieved when we are all painted as corrupt, as would anyone.
I'm interested though in which changes that the commissioner has brought in that you feel are good for the force?0 -
I'd be fully agreeable that as a whole it is not corrupt and its a few members that give it a bad rep.
There are, of course some bad members, of course there are. There are lazy incompetent ones also.
But as a whole, the organisation is not corrupt. Does not always work the best way it should but definitely not corrupt.
& of course members feel aggrieved when we are all painted as corrupt, as would anyone.
However, why do a huge number of colleagues suddenly back their colleagues when it is BLATANTLY obvious that they did wrong, BLATANTLY obvious that they caused harm, BLATANTLY obvious that they did not follow any proper procedure.
And why can't a garda utter the extremely simple phrase "I AM SORRY"
THAT'S what wrong with the garda force in general.0 -
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silver2020 wrote: »I'd be fully agreeable that as a whole it is not corrupt and its a few members that give it a bad rep.
However, why do a huge number of colleagues suddenly back their colleagues when it is BLATANTLY obvious that they did wrong, BLATANTLY obvious that they caused harm, BLATANTLY obvious that they did not follow any proper procedure.
And why can't a garda utter the extremely simple phrase "I AM SORRY"
THAT'S what wrong with the garda force in general.
I'm not sure they do really?
But, regards the 'i am sorry' you are dead right. That has always been a problem, for the force as a whole. I think it is slowly changing, AGS has never wanted to admit their failings in public.
IMO, it is always better to put up your hands when wrong & admit your mistake & learn from it.
AGS is slowly getting there, I think!0 -
My view is that there is a very deliberate reason why a former deputy head of the PSNI got the top job here - to give the joint a clean out from the top down.
A proper hard nut prepared to take the hard line without fear nor favour.
What also happened is that the UK paid a fortune to clear out hundreds of RUC members who either didnt want to slide across to the new PSNI or were considered too "old school" to be accepted into the new force. They got a handsome package ( something of the order of a couple of years wages, taxfree and half pension to those who qualified) to leave and many did, to the point where it caused a serious skill drain that took some time to make up. Harris also cleared out individuals who were seen as too close to Unionist politics and Loyalism in particular.0 -
Everyone, particularly Gardai want to have a professional force, unfortunately what is happening at the moment with the changes the new commissioner is making, that won't happen. But that is for another thread.
AGS is not a corrupt organisation. I would advise anyone who believes it is to never travel overseas!
Yep, there are some bad, lazy, incompetent members as there is in any organisation, but it is far far from a corrupt organisation.[/QUOTE]
You ask anyone who has come to live in Ireland from quite a few foreign countries about interaction with the police. Compared to quite a few countries, a local cannot walk up to a policeman to do something as simple as ask for directions. You'd either get a slap or a foot up the arse, be nicked and forced to pay a "gift" or you'll get stopped for being the wrong ethnic minority or your car will be impounded for a whim. While only a small portion of our Force is bent, it's considerably better than what passes for a police force in a lot of countries.0 -
The reduction of police numbers on the beat or on patrol in local communities is not just confined to Gardai, so to blame Harris for this is to miss the point. It is a common complaint all across the UK police forces. The difference between the Gardai, the UK police forces and the European forces is that European forces are often divided into local and national police, such as in France, whereby local crime is the job of local police, the Police Nationale and more serious stuff is dealt with by the Gendarme (who, incidentally, come under the Minister for Defence). In fairness to the Gardai, they have put a lot of emphasis on community policing in recent years but the old days of Gardai on the beat, outside Dublin, are essentially gone.0
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Furthermore if they are a serving member it is very stupid and id say bordering on unprofessional to get involved in a heated debate online.
I’ve personally always found debates are better if there are two sides debating. Otherwise its not a debate at all.
And I love the way it’s called the crooked blue line and the op is about prison officers in America.
Can I post about electricians being corrupt because I once had a dodgy roofer? Are they the same cult seeing as they’re both in the building game?0 -
I’ve personally always found debates are better if there are two sides debating. Otherwise its not a debate at all.
And I love the way it’s called the crooked blue line and the op is about prison officers in America.
Can I post about electricians being corrupt because I once had a dodgy roofer? Are they the same cult seeing as they’re both in the building game?
My point is that if your going to debate, you debate on what is public record. Implying that you are working for an organization that the debate is and you know more because of it but don't go into the details is not really debating. Nor did the poster really try to engage in any debating.
My comment on being apart of an organization is working in the corporate world, maybe the public sector encourages its staff to get involved in online debates but that doesn't happen in the private sector as the damage it can do is much greater than the good.
If you have a problem with the thread take it up with the mods.0 -
No actually, I don't have a family so my wages are alright for me. Others were struggling.
I'm not wink wink -ing at anything
There are, of course some bad members, of course there are. There are lazy incompetent ones also.
But as a whole, the organisation is not corrupt. Does not always work the best way it should but definitely not corrupt.
& of course members feel aggrieved when we are all painted as corrupt, as would anyone.
I'm interested though in which changes that the commissioner has brought in that you feel are good for the force?
They were struggling was it because of the actual wages or was it due to taking out large loans from the credit union during the boom? I know its neither here nor there anyway i was just pointing out that very close afterwards we had the reporting debacle come out when it was shown rank and file were lying about their reporting.
You should feel aggrieved when people call the organization corrupt but point the blame at the ones blackening your name. I don't doubt its a hard job but the past couple of years have been a PR nightmare and have not painted the organization in a good light. I don't believe its thoroughly corrupt but i also don't believe that it is setup in a way that drives transparency/and there is a culture of circling the wagons to protect each other.
Initiative wise i like some of what i saw on the restructuring. I also get the impression he is cleaning house at the top which i also like. Maybe he isn't but it looks that way.0
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