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Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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12467…226

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    #92
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    No there’s not, it’s worse - it’s their parents and teachers and society doing it and it’s being encouraged.

    It certainly gets reported as if it is that by some sections of the media..


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    #93
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    What I don't get is why there is a blanket of protection put around discussions on self-identifing trans ,
    Were told no mention of mental illness ,
    But gender dysphoria is a medical and psychological condition , wether it's a severe chemical or hormonal imbalance or some seem to think it maybe linked with the autism spectrum ,
    So why would it be declared it's not allowed to be discussed,
    We can all self identify as everything from unicorns to spaceships ,I used to be airwolf ,
    But does it make it true or real no ,
    The same applies to people trying to be a Kardashian or Conor McGregor ,your not and never will be either,

    Should people be banned or warned for not agreeing with someone who claims to be something they are not , absolutely no , should someone get to label others with slurs and face no action absolutely not ,
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #94
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    km991148 wrote: »
    It certainly gets reported as if it is that by some sections of the media..

    Which media outlets do you think are not reporting this faithfully? The BBC, with their worrying reports about the Tavistock Clinic? The Times UK with articles featuring people who have regretted transitioning? Are these not to be taken seriously? Are these people unimportant?


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    #95
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    I am sure in any one of these examples (biological males in women's sport, child with "forced" gender or the case of a male entering a women's prison etc etc) - they are very isolated one off cases. In the main there is no trend of forcing anyone to do anything or any sort of 'encouragement'.

    There does seem to be a bit of an agenda to be more accepting of those who either have gender issues or want to express gender differently from what has been traditional in the last few hundred years. There has also (it seems) been a whole lot of counter outrage and people letting their imaginations run amok.

    Take a breath, break out from your YouTube/Facebook/Online bubbles and daily media cycles and relax..


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    #96
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    km991148 wrote: »
    It certainly gets reported as if it is that by some sections of the media..

    Because if it was that there would rightly be outrage - but the TRAa have it sewn up so that anyone who questions their narrative is phobic.

    If your daughter is into football and your boy wants to dress as Belle frigging LET THEM!!!

    NO pills, NO surgery - just happy kids.


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    #97
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Because if it was that there would rightly be outrage - but the TRAa have it sewn up so that anyone who questions their narrative is phobic.

    If your daughter is into football and your boy wants to dress as Belle frigging LET THEM!!!

    NO pills, NO surgery - just happy kids.

    Who are TRAa?


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    #98
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Which media outlets do you think are not reporting this faithfully? The BBC, with their worrying reports about the Tavistock Clinic? The Times UK with articles featuring people who have regretted transitioning? Are these not to be taken seriously? Are these people unimportant?

    I said no such thing.


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    #99
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    km991148 wrote: »
    Who are TRAa?

    Oh you know full well.

    But to play along ... Trans Rights Activists.


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    #100
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    The proposition is: trans women should not be housed in women's prisons.

    The reason offered is: the mere presence of trans women in a women's prison represents an unacceptable threat to the other women inmates. Prisons are risky but we shouldn't make them more risky.

    Okay, so that seems to me like people who favour prison as a form of punishment are content for prisoners to wear some level of risk from their fellow inmates.

    So I ask: in the case of a violent cis offender and a non-violent trans offender, which one is the greater risk to her fellow inmates?

    So, no you don't want a discussion. Ok. Secondly, it represents an increased threat.

    The second one potentially. However, how does one know the 2nd trans offender won't become violent in prison, lash out. As they are male they will have a physical advantage over the female prisoners. Prisons are segregated for a reason.

    I'll ask again, do you think prisons should be mixed? Yes/no and why?


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    #101
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    OK, so you accept that in some cases the trans inmate may pose less of a risk to her fellow inmates than the cis inmate. That being so, how do you sustain the proposition that the trans women should never be housed in women's prisons? It can't be because of the risk to fellow inmates, because as we established, the risk from a trans inmate is not necessarily greater than from a cis inmate.

    Because they are male. And you do not know what someone will do or turn into in prison. If the male becomes violent he will have a physical advantage over the women due to the fact that he is male.

    Do you think prisons should be mixed, yes or no? And why?


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    #102
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Oh you know full well.

    But to play along ... Trans Rights Activists.

    No need for the attitude - it was a genuine question.

    And this is the sign of the times with the permanent outrage btw - you can't begin to have a serious discussion on anything these days without someone about to jump down your throat...


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    #103
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    km991148 wrote: »
    I am sure in any one of these examples (biological males in women's sport, child with "forced" gender or the case of a male entering a women's prison etc etc) - they are very isolated one off cases. In the main there is no trend of forcing anyone to do anything or any sort of 'encouragement'.

    Who cares if they are rare? To the individual with an ever altered body, that’s of little comfort. The way they are spoken of, almost as acceptable collateral, is sickening.

    And, no, I won’t stop caring about this.
    km991148 wrote: »
    I said no such thing.

    I asked you a question. Which sections of the media are you criticising here? I hazarded a few guesses but please, fill me in on what you meant.


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    #104
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    km991148 wrote: »
    I am sure in any one of these examples (biological males in women's sport, child with "forced" gender or the case of a male entering a women's prison etc etc) - they are very isolated one off cases. In the main there is no trend of forcing anyone to do anything or any sort of 'encouragement'.

    There does seem to be a bit of an agenda to be more accepting of those who either have gender issues or want to express gender differently from what has been traditional in the last few hundred years. There has also (it seems) been a whole lot of counter outrage and people letting their imaginations run amok.

    Take a breath, break out from your YouTube/Facebook/Online bubbles and daily media cycles and relax..

    There are quite a number of biological males in competitive female sport competing at high levels and winning.
    Veronica Ivy
    Laurel Hubbard
    Fallon Fox
    Hannah Mouncey
    Andraya Yearwood
    Cece Telfer
    and many others

    There are quite a few transwomen in female prisons including
    More than 125 in the UK
    2 in Ireland

    There are court cases being taken in the UK eg Keira Bell, Susan Evans. In Canada a few days ago in B.C. a 17 year old was stopped from double mastectomy. In the US there have been many custody cases where one parent in a couple has objected to the transgendering of their child. As a few examples off the top of my head.

    There are large desister or detransitioning social media groups where people are sharing experience and advice because they have been left with irreversible damage after surgery or hormones.


    Your idea of ''one offs'' does not amount to much, and is in fact an attempt to encourage acceptable collateral damage.


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    #105
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Who cares if they are rare? To the individual with an ever altered body, that’s of little comfort. The way they are spoken of, almost as acceptable collateral, is sickening.

    And, no, I won’t stop caring about this.

    Is this something that personally impacts you or someone you know (Genuine question, if you don't want to answer, I understand)?

    I am not saying that people shouldn't care about the individuals that have been affected in these cases. But it just seems that people are willing to go deep on all sorts of hypothetical individualised/isolated situations and extrapolate them out as if each of them are happening over and over (i.e. as generalisations).


    If someone presents (at any age) as having gender identity issues and are encouraged to make some life long changes (which doesn't happen overnight btw) and then regret or discover the original solution wasn't the correct one, of course its a horribly devastating and tragic situation.
    But really unless anyone has direct experience of this or has seen it close up, then I am sorry, but it just sounds like a bunch of fear mongering generalisations.


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    #106
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    Your idea of ''one offs'' does not amount to much, and is in fact an attempt to encourage acceptable collateral damage.

    er no its not..

    Just putting this into perspective. It does not detract from the tragic circumstances highlights in some of those cases you mentioned. But some people seem to think there is some mass gender swapping agenda being pushed on society as a whole. It doesn't seem to be the case at all.


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    #107
    Tig98
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Tig98


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    If your daughter is into football and your boy wants to dress as Belle frigging LET THEM!!!

    NO pills, NO surgery - just happy kids.

    This is my view exactly. I think it is a gross indecency to have any form of gender reassignment surgery - your bits are your bits, just leave em. If you want to do things contra to what society expects of your gender thats completely fine, all the more power to you. I think people going through gender reassignment etc are unintentionally reinforcing traditional gender roles by insisting they need certain biological apparatus to do certain things contentedly. If youre a girl who likes building pursue it, a boy who wears makeup do it. Society needs more people who are fearlessly themselves.

    Im a gay man so people expect me to be very Liberal, and maybe my view is hipocritical because of the gay rights movement, but I dont consider gender reassignment surgery the right thing to do.


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    #108
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »



    I asked you a question. Which sections of the media are you criticising here? I hazarded a few guesses but please, fill me in on what you meant.

    Sorry - didn't see the second part of your post because you edited it (Probably better to create a new post otherwise it gets missed?).

    I didn't mean any specific outlets, but in general.


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    #109
    Heart Break Kid
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭Heart Break Kid


    Are you looking for opinions from a factual biological scientific point of view or a socialisation/gender identity point of view?

    When people reference if your male or female it’s a reference to your sex and not your gender identity.

    I think there are some really interesting questions in relation to how trans people manage in the sporting environment . More so where a male to female trans person competes against non-trans women and the advantage a trans female can have in terms of strength, speed and general athletics.

    A question I always had for a trans person is; How do they form their self identify as a male or female?

    Of the few trans people I know, some seem to have utilised their brothers or close family members personalities to help form their self identify which can be extremely toxic personalities.

    I suppose the question is what makes a trans man or women feel they are a women or man. Is it clothes, behaviours, title, use of different toilets? I probably would never be offended if someone misused my pronouns and maybe it’s never been an issue for me but still.

    I don’t believe that you should be allowed to change your original birth certificate or any other historical record minus the exception for those who are born as both of the 2 sexes. I also believe the genitalia who have categorise the sex you should be identified as.

    Also extremely opposed to children taking any sort of medication or surgery that will adjust their biological and physical make up in anyway and may even consider till someone is in their 20s till they have fully grown.


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    #110
    trixi001
    Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭trixi001


    Its simple really

    Born as a female, you are a female
    Born as a male, you are a male
    Born as intersex - you are intersex

    That is who you are biologically

    Biological males have physical differences to biological females...this needs to be recognised.
    Female sports exist because females are simply in most cases not able to compete with males, so allowing males to participate does away with the point in female only sport.

    As for prisons, perhaps they should be mixed anyway (with the exception of sex offenders), prison needs to about rehabilitation, separating the sexes doesn't help with this. Perhaps Allow mixing withing reason with seperate sleeping quarters? I know there may be issues with this, but i think it should be explored. I believe there is a mixed sex prison in England.

    Very few things need to be single sex, and less single sex facilities makes transgender less of an issue - why do we need single sex toilets, changing rooms etc, just have separate cubicles. My local leisure centre was refurbished and it has one changing room now with individual cubicles - works well.

    I have no issue with anyone identifying as whatever gender they want, and i will try to use whatever pronoun they want me to use, but don't sue me or "cancel" me if i don't on one occasion, or use social media to go into a rant about someone using the wrong pronoun. Let people live their lives however they choose as long as it is not hurting anyone else.

    I do not think children should be given chemicals or have surgery until they are at least 16. I think every person who self ID's needs to have a least one session of therapy before they get a certificate to ensure that it is right for them, and gender issues are not masking other mental health issues.

    Its a complex area, there are no easy answers


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    #111
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    km991148 wrote: »
    Is this something that personally impacts you or someone you know (Genuine question, if you don't want to answer, I understand)?

    I am not saying that people shouldn't care about the individuals that have been affected in these cases. But it just seems that people are willing to go deep on all sorts of hypothetical individualised/isolated situations and extrapolate them out as if each of them are happening over and over (i.e. as generalisations).

    I’ve already asked somebody this on this thread but do you only care about issues that affect you personally? I find that such a self-absorbed position.

    We are already seeing the downside of self ID in Ireland. You can shrug your shoulders but I’m not going to personally.


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    #112
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Tig98 wrote: »
    This is my view exactly. I think it is a gross indecency to have any form of gender reassignment surgery - your bits are your bits, just leave em. If you want to do things contra to what society expects of your gender thats completely fine, all the more power to you. I think people going through gender reassignment etc are unintentionally reinforcing traditional gender roles by insisting they need certain biological apparatus to do certain things contentedly. If youre a girl who likes building pursue it, a boy who wears makeup do it. Society needs more people who are fearlessly themselves.

    Im a gay man so people expect me to be very Liberal, and maybe my view is hipocritical because of the gay rights movement, but I dont consider gender reassignment surgery the right thing to do.

    I don’t think you are at all hypocritical. I was assumed to be a lesbian in my teens because I hung round with lads, into sport - etc. Thankfully the parents said “if she brings a girl back here then she’s a lesbian, she isn’t for wanting to watch the Open golf!!”

    I’m straight but that’s just neither here nor there. Well unless Gal Gadot winks st me then I’ll consider it!!!

    I’m a staunch ally to the gay community and one of the things that deeply concerns me is the erasing of same sex attraction by “transing the gay away” as I read online (Twitter but don’t judge!!).

    That would be an incredibly sad day if they succeed.


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    #113
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I’ve already asked somebody this on this thread but do you only care about issues that affect you personally? I find that such a self-absorbed position.

    You should really stop making assumptions here - I am asking if its something you have direct experience of because if it is something you have a more intimate knowledge of then you might have more insight than someone that doesn't.

    But opinions are like arseholes - everyone got one and no one cares..
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    We are already seeing the downside of self ID in Ireland. You can shrug your shoulders but I’m not going to personally.

    Can you elaborate - I am not sure explicitly what you mean by Self ID and what downsides?


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    #114
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    km991148 wrote: »
    Is this something that personally impacts you or someone you know (Genuine question, if you don't want to answer, I understand)?

    I am not saying that people shouldn't care about the individuals that have been affected in these cases. But it just seems that people are willing to go deep on all sorts of hypothetical individualised/isolated situations and extrapolate them out as if each of them are happening over and over (i.e. as generalisations).


    If someone presents (at any age) as having gender identity issues and are encouraged to make some life long changes (which doesn't happen overnight btw) and then regret or discover the original solution wasn't the correct one, of course its a horribly devastating and tragic situation.
    But really unless anyone has direct experience of this or has seen it close up, then I am sorry, but it just sounds like a bunch of fear mongering generalisations.


    Can I have an opinion on the young women imprisoned for decades in Iran for not wearing scarves?
    Can I have an opinion on the young girls sent from Ireland to have FGM done abroad?
    Can I have an opinion on US oil-seeking imperialism in the Middle East?
    Can I have an opinion on knife crime in London?
    Can I have an opinion on Salafi violence in Europe?

    What exactly are you trying to do - stop me having an opinion?
    I happen to know of several cases connecting to transgenderism, including an abandoned wife whose former husband is on an ''emotional journey'' to their real self and cannot see the torment he has caused his wife and a child in school who has other disorders.
    But even if i did not I have also taken a deep interest in this area over several years particularly with regard to how post modern deconstructionist gender theory ideology is being actively used to overthrow empirical science. It affects me as a planetary citizen when falsehood is promoted in law, regulation, science etc as I see it as dangerously subversive to reason.


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    #115
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    Can I have an opinion on the young women imprisoned for decades in Iran for not wearing scarves?
    Can I have an opinion on the young girls sent from Ireland to have FGM done abroad?
    Can I have an opinion on US oil-seeking imperialism in the Middle East?
    Can I have an opinion on knife crime in London?
    Can I have an opinion on Salafi violence in Europe?

    What exactly are you trying to do - stop me having an opinion?


    Read my reply to ODB above and for goodness sake stop jumping down my throat. Where did I deny your right to an opinion. I am just curious about peoples experience?


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    #116
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    km991148 wrote: »
    Is this something that personally impacts you or someone you know?

    Not always a solid argument. I don't personally know anyone who is in a same-sex marriage. I didn't let that stop me from voting for SSM.


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    #117
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    km991148 wrote: »
    Read my reply to ODB above and for goodness sake stop jumping down my throat. Where did I deny your right to an opinion. I am just curious about peoples experience?

    You are specifically asking and repeatedly why people should have an opinion on this subject if not personally impacted or experienced.
    It is actually a tactic for trying to shut a person out of a debate, by implying they have no locus standi. So saying afterwards hey don't jump down my throat is trying to distance yourself from your own repeated tactic.


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    #118
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    I happen to know of several cases connecting to transgenderism, including an abandoned wife whose former husband is on an ''emotional journey'' to their real self and cannot see the torment he has caused his wife and a child in school who has other disorders.
    A tragic case, no doubt.
    Gruffalux wrote: »
    But even if i did not I have also taken a deep interest in this area over several years particularly with regard to how post modern deconstructionist gender theory ideology is being actively used to overthrow empirical science. It affects me as a planetary citizen when falsehood is promoted in law, regulation, science etc as I see it as dangerously subversive to reason.

    Try that again in simple terms, because really it doesn't sound like a real thing at all.
    I'd appreciate some some empirical evidence or papers to back this up.


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    #119
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    km991148 wrote: »
    You should really stop making assumptions here - I am asking if its something you have direct experience of because if it is something you have a more intimate knowledge of then you might have more insight than someone that doesn't.

    But opinions are like arseholes - everyone got one and no one cares..



    Can you elaborate - I am not sure explicitly what you mean by Self ID and what downsides?

    Yes. I have directed experience of a family member who is a teenage girl who is having doubts about her identity. Not close family member.

    I don't think that's the reason for my interest in the issue if young people. I think I can emphasize as I did not have the happiest teenage years and am not a very feminine girl. I think it's very dangerous for children and teenagers.

    I also see that if you have gender dysphoria from a young age then it may be beneficial to go through the drug treatments. It's not being done from an evil motivation.

    We need to be able to discuss this without being called names or dismissed. And so do doctors and sex researchers.


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    #120
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    km991148 wrote: »
    A tragic case, no doubt.



    Try that again in simple terms, because really it doesn't sound like a real thing at all.
    I'd appreciate some some empirical evidence or papers to back this up.

    It is a thing. A whole big complicated thing that has been going on for a long time.

    Why don't you read up or research the whole area yourself a lot more, rather than coming in and saying hey I've no clue what's going on but let me say that some people should not have an opinion?


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    #121
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    You are specifically asking and repeatedly why people should have an opinion on this subject if not personally impacted or experienced.
    It is actually a tactic for trying to shut a person out of a debate, by implying they have no locus standi. So saying afterwards hey don't jump down my throat is trying to distance yourself from your own repeated tactic.

    I asked one person if they had direct experience because I am interested in the direct impact or experience they may have had in order to challenge my own views.

    In return I've had several people question my motives, insinuate I am setting up false arguments or straw men (I genuinely didn't understand TRA acronym) and all sorts of other nonsense.


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