Weight lifting advice?

Alf Veedersane · 17-11-2020 12:40am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I know.
That is what a planned calorie surplus is.

I was asked why I thought someone suggesting calorie surpluses for most people are unhealthy.

Mostly they are unplanned. But even bulking or planned calorie surplus for the general public is not necessary or done well.

This would be a bulk. Unsure whether the post was suggesting this to the OP or speaking in general.

They were asking in the context of building muscle. That was clear.

I understand your point but you need to be a bit clearer if you're making a long post.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-11-2020 12:40am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

They were asking in the context of building muscle. That was clear.

I understand your point but you need to be a bit clearer if you're making a long post.

This has always been a fault of mine.

My brain is very scatty info comes all at once. I shall try and organize it more. Apologies.

Alf Veedersane · 17-11-2020 12:47am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This has always been a fault of mine.

My brain is very scatty info comes all at once. I shall try and organize it more. Apologies.

No need to apologise to me. You want to be a PT....think of someone you're responding to as a client and try to respond to what is said clearly and concisely.

Godeatsboogers · 17-11-2020 12:48am

Muscle grows in proportion to fat so youre in a good position for muscle growth. You should be doing 5 sets, 5 reps of decent weight for muscle growth, 4 sets of 8 reps for growth/toning, 4 sets of 10 or 12 for toning. Plus your diet has to be spot on, protein, carbs, good fats, get rid of chocolate and crisps, you'll find your body is ****ting out the nutrients you need when you're eating that stuff.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-11-2020 2:56am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

No need to apologise to me. You want to be a PT....think of someone you're responding to as a client and try to respond to what is said clearly and concisely.

Yeah I get you.

You can SEE clients in front of you though. You have a better idea. You can take measurements etc. You get a better idea of their level of knowledge fitness etc. You can see the real problems better.

EVERYTHING is harder online. I am dealing with this now in lockdown!

Godeatsboogers
Muscle grows in proportion to fat so youre in a good position for muscle growth.

This depends. Someone naturally endomorphic yes. Much more prone to gain fat but also has the upside to gain muscle well as opposed to ectomorphic.

That stocky build type.

The OP is 42 though. I doubt he was at that body fat naturally as a 25 yr old. Its MUCH easier to gain fat as you age and harder to build muscle even for men. I would say its less in proportion as you age.

Like it or not we lose muscle mass after 40 and its harder to keep on and build. Still very possible but harder. And much easier to gain fat.

Your other advice is spot on though. Reps diet etc. Partic after 40 ..diet has to be perfect . He won't necessarily have the ability to grow muscle in proportion to his body's ability to gain fat at 42 though.

Alf Veedersane · 17-11-2020 7:52am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yeah I get you.

You can SEE clients in front of you though. You have a better idea. You can take measurements etc. You get a better idea of their level of knowledge fitness etc. You can see the real problems better.

EVERYTHING is harder online. I am dealing with this now in lockdown!

It's not about what you can see etc. It's about how you communicate. You will always need to be able to communicate remotely.

new2tri19 · 17-11-2020 11:11am

I got great advice here so i'll just add that i do triathlon and was mainly a runner before that. I have always been tin and figured id never put on mass because of all the cardio i do. Between asking questions here and some googling i really wasn't eating enough protein or food in general. I bought a barbell and weights and have been consciously eating more protein and eating more in general even when not hungry careful to never miss a meal.

I found a plan called GZCLP on reddit and have been following that. I'm on week 10 of that plan and have gone from 67kg to 83kg . I am not shredded don't have a six pack but am noticeably bigger the majority of people i meet now would comment on the fact that i have bulked up. Im starting to see really good definition in chest arms shoulders (not so much legs) .
I'm 40 myself so its possible for us older guys ! I still run 3 hours a week now and bike 4-5 hours and will be swimming 1-2 hours when pools open again. I did drop the cardio in the first few weeks to give my body a chance to absord the new training and i watch what i do now so i don't do my hard run intervals after deadlifts or squats. I just have to keep reminding myself to eat more.

Mellor · 17-11-2020 11:11am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its put him at 24% bodyfat.

He is not using it up. He is not building muscle etc.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I was asked why I thought someone suggesting calorie surpluses for most people are unhealthy.

I'm genuinely sure that's what you meant to say in reference to the OP - but it's not what you actually said.
There was no "most people", or "overweight people".
You said that all calorie surpluses are unhealthy.

Maybe you where fixated on the OP being 24%. And Alf took the time to point out the difference. But other posters were right to point out that your blanket statement was factually incorrect.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

IMO no beginners should bulk.

They can't.

They don't know what they are doing. And its questionable as to whether someone not trained to lift heavy without injury actually can do enough to build muscle at that rate.

This is another blanket statement and also incorrect.
I think you should maybe try to speak more in general terms, and less so in absolutes.

Most beginners should not bulk, and should just train.
But somebody who is severely underweight is much better off increasing their calories sooner. Waiting is no benefit.

Injury risk is not a relevant. The weights they lift in the gym is independent to calorie intake.

Cill94 · 17-11-2020 11:36am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

IMO no beginners should bulk.

They can't.

This is just nonsense.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They don't know what they are doing. And its questionable as to whether someone not trained to lift heavy without injury actually can do enough to build muscle at that rate.

First part is reasonable to argue, second part is easily refuted by all of the research on resistance-trained beginners.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Lift for a year first ..then bulk.

You're assuming people are going to be eating enough to progress for that full year.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Also most bulks ..do put some people into an unhealthy bodyfat range for a while. Its still often not healthy. Partic if they started at an unhealthy range too.

So just don't start at an unhealthy range, and give people the information to do it properly. A male going from 15 to 18% bodyfat is not a significant risk to health if they are training hard and eating well. Meanwhile, neither myself or anyone else in this thread has recommended the OP do a bulk since we learned he's at 24%.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Also ..a lot of people just fall off the wagon.....stop working out ...after a bulk.

Its not something most ordinary people are passionate about.

Telling the general population to eat in calorie surplus etc is not a good idea.

And a lot of people in gyms are just the general population. They are not bodybuilders etc or people in the habit of doing it for years. those people don't actually have weight issues.

So it sounds like what you're saying is, some people won't effectively implement useful info, so we just won't dispense it at all?

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Advice has to be aimed at the person receiving it.

Couldn't agree more, but you didn't aim the advice at him.

You made a blanket statement about a calorie surplus being unhealthy.

This is an issue not just because it's wrong, but because it's these kind of lazy statements that create the many fitness myths that lead people down the wrong path. The end result is me trying to convince a dangerously underweight woman to do a temporary bulk, but she won't because she heard the 'nutritionist' on RTE say a calorie surplus is unhealthy.

Patsy167 · 17-11-2020 12:21pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

I got great advice here so i'll just add that i do triathlon and was mainly a runner before that. I have always been tin and figured id never put on mass because of all the cardio i do. Between asking questions here and some googling i really wasn't eating enough protein or food in general. I bought a barbell and weights and have been consciously eating more protein and eating more in general even when not hungry careful to never miss a meal.

I found a plan called GZCLP on reddit and have been following that. I'm on week 10 of that plan and have gone from 67kg to 83kg . I am not shredded don't have a six pack but am noticeably bigger the majority of people i meet now would comment on the fact that i have bulked up. Im starting to see really good definition in chest arms shoulders (not so much legs) .
I'm 40 myself so its possible for us older guys ! I still run 3 hours a week now and bike 4-5 hours and will be swimming 1-2 hours when pools open again. I did drop the cardio in the first few weeks to give my body a chance to absord the new training and i watch what i do now so i don't do my hard run intervals after deadlifts or squats. I just have to keep reminding myself to eat more.

week 10 of that plan and have gone from 67kg to 83kg

Not trying to knock your results in any way but are you sure on the above numbers. Most lads would take 15lb of muscle in a year. Appreciate that the gains to be made are greater for beginners but the above seems way too quick to be mainly muscle and not that sustainable.

new2tri19 · 17-11-2020 12:53pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

week 10 of that plan and have gone from 67kg to 83kg

Not trying to knock your results in any way but are you sure on the above numbers. Most lads would take 15lb of muscle in a year. Appreciate that the gains to be made are greater for beginners but the above seems way too quick to be mainly muscle and not that sustainable.

It's surprising to me too , the weight gain has slowed as the weeks progressed . I think I may have only gained 1-2kg in the last 3 weeks. I doubt it's all muscle and not suggesting it is either, my muscles have all gotten bigger and I look more defined. My legs still seem thin but are all muscle.
As I said first few weeks I cut cardio right back so I imagine had I not lifted at all I probably would have gained weight anyway. Pre starting weights if get up cycle to work have a bowl of cereal and tea at 10am , run lunch time for an hour , quick sandwich then cycle home , swim later and a dinner and a bar chocolate and tea then bed. So I was probably way under eating.
Nowadays it's porridge with protein milk and protein granola ,2 eggs and brown bread for breakfast pre cycle to work . At 10am I'd have a protein bar with tea and a banana, still run at lunch but have a chicken fillet rap or tuna bagel and more fruit for lunch . An afternoon protein milk before cycle home , then dinner as normal , a workout in shed and a protein shake or peanut butter sandwich before bed.
Previously I was tired all the time hitting the pool I'd be dodging hard sets in favour of easy aerobic sets same with run as bike , I feel like I was definitely in a caloric deficit each day and probably low testosterone or something. I've no clue if that's what helped me gain weight so fast but my instinct is that my body needed the weight so held onto it .
As I've started to ramp back up cardio and maintaining what I'm eating I'm noticing I'm hungrier now and it's no an effort to eat more. My weight is stabilizing now around 82-84kg these last few weeks , I'd guess that when I'm training for half Ironman next year race weight will be close to 80kg which I'll be happy with. It will be hard to keep weight when I start doing 3 hours bike rides and longer runs.

Dtp1979 · 17-11-2020 1:33pm

Godeatsboogers wrote: »

Muscle grows in proportion to fat so youre in a good position for muscle growth. You should be doing 5 sets, 5 reps of decent weight for muscle growth, 4 sets of 8 reps for growth/toning, 4 sets of 10 or 12 for toning. Plus your diet has to be spot on, protein, carbs, good fats, get rid of chocolate and crisps, you'll find your body is ****ting out the nutrients you need when you're eating that stuff.

Can you delete this please....it’s hurting my brain

Patsy167 · 17-11-2020 2:55pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

It's surprising to me too , the weight gain has slowed as the weeks progressed . I think I may have only gained 1-2kg in the last 3 weeks. I doubt it's all muscle and not suggesting it is either, my muscles have all gotten bigger and I look more defined. My legs still seem thin but are all muscle.
As I said first few weeks I cut cardio right back so I imagine had I not lifted at all I probably would have gained weight anyway. Pre starting weights if get up cycle to work have a bowl of cereal and tea at 10am , run lunch time for an hour , quick sandwich then cycle home , swim later and a dinner and a bar chocolate and tea then bed. So I was probably way under eating.
Nowadays it's porridge with protein milk and protein granola ,2 eggs and brown bread for breakfast pre cycle to work . At 10am I'd have a protein bar with tea and a banana, still run at lunch but have a chicken fillet rap or tuna bagel and more fruit for lunch . An afternoon protein milk before cycle home , then dinner as normal , a workout in shed and a protein shake or peanut butter sandwich before bed.
Previously I was tired all the time hitting the pool I'd be dodging hard sets in favour of easy aerobic sets same with run as bike , I feel like I was definitely in a caloric deficit each day and probably low testosterone or something. I've no clue if that's what helped me gain weight so fast but my instinct is that my body needed the weight so held onto it .
As I've started to ramp back up cardio and maintaining what I'm eating I'm noticing I'm hungrier now and it's no an effort to eat more. My weight is stabilizing now around 82-84kg these last few weeks , I'd guess that when I'm training for half Ironman next year race weight will be close to 80kg which I'll be happy with. It will be hard to keep weight when I start doing 3 hours bike rides and longer runs.

:eek: Good on you for making the changes. I'm sure your body is thanking you for it too. I can't imagine it was too happy with your old routine.

I remember listening to a podcast on Danny Lennons Sigma Nutrition on someone who was combining either bodybuilding or Powerlifting and marathon training. Certainly not easy, but it can be done.

Onwards and upwards with your training!

Alf Veedersane · 17-11-2020 3:04pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

I remember listening to a podcast on Danny Lennons Sigma Nutrition on someone who was combining either bodybuilding or Powerlifting and marathon training. Certainly not easy, but it can be done.

Is that a few years old, that episode?

Possibly Alex Viada...Greg Nuckols had an article about him or it was a guest article by him and how he combined that level of cardio with lifting.

Patsy167 · 17-11-2020 5:06pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Is that a few years old, that episode?

Possibly Alex Viada...Greg Nuckols had an article about him or it was a guest article by him and how he combined that level of cardio with lifting.

Alex Viada - That's exactly the one. Good memory!

Links below if anyone is interested in how he does it and the resources mentioned.

https://sigmanutrition.com/episode53/#:~:text=Alex%20Viada%2C%20NSCA%20Certified%20Strength,with%20athletes%20with%20a%20disability.

Alf Veedersane · 17-11-2020 5:15pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

Alex Viada - That's exactly the one. Good memory!

Links below if anyone is interested in how he does it and the resources mentioned.

https://sigmanutrition.com/episode53/#:~:text=Alex%20Viada%2C%20NSCA%20Certified%20Strength,with%20athletes%20with%20a%20disability.

Here's one of the articles on Stronger By Science (or Strengtheory as it was then)

Godeatsboogers · 17-11-2020 11:00pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Can you delete this please....it’s hurting my brain

Why? The info is accurate and relevant. Maybe you're gonna have a stroke, no need to bring me into it, consult a physician

Dtp1979 · 17-11-2020 11:09pm

Godeatsboogers wrote: »

Why? The info is accurate and relevant. Maybe you're gonna have a stroke, no need to bring me into it, consult a physician

I don’t know where to start. It sounds like sports science from slimming world.
5 sets of 5 will develop strength. It’s primarily for strength. It’s a set/rep program known the world over for beginner strength training.
Getting up to 8-12 reps will be more for growth, if you’re in a calorie surplus. You don’t need to be ‘spot on’ with nutrition unless you’re a competitive bodybuilder. As for toning.........

Godeatsboogers · 17-11-2020 11:31pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I don’t know where to start. It sounds like sports science from slimming world.
5 sets of 5 will develop strength. It’s primarily for strength. It’s a set/rep program known the world over for beginner strength training.
Getting up to 8-12 reps will be more for growth, if you’re in a calorie surplus. You don’t need to be ‘spot on’ with nutrition unless you’re a competitive bodybuilder. As for toning.........

5 sets of 5 reps of high weight will promote muscle growth, so I've been told by a pretty big bloke who's been weightlifting for over 20 years. The diet tip came from Dorian Yates, and sure he was a professional but he says even for non professionals a diet minus junk food is a big help in gaining weight, muscle mass. As for toning? Pretty common knowledge that 4 sets of the 10 to 12 reps of light weight is great for toning. Also, this ... Is an elipsis, .........., this means nothing

Dtp1979 · 17-11-2020 11:38pm

Godeatsboogers wrote: »

5 sets of 5 reps of high weight will promote muscle growth, so I've been told by a pretty big bloke who's been weightlifting for over 20 years. The diet tip came from Dorian Yates, and sure he was a professional but he says even for non professionals a diet minus junk food is a big help in gaining weight, muscle mass. As for toning? Pretty common knowledge that 4 sets of the 10 to 12 reps of light weight is great for toning. Also, this ... Is an elipsis, .........., this means nothing

Ok, toning is a term used by soccer moms. Sets of 10-12 reps is for muscle growth, and nothing else, if the weight is challenging. If the weight is light at that rep range then it’s called a warmup.
Sets of 5x5 will promote some muscle growth, but is primarily used for strength training. Theres a book called starting strength, look it up. Of course a clean diets is optimal, but it doesn’t have to be to gain muscle. It only needs to be spot on if you’re a competitive bodybuilder/athlete, as I already said.

Godeatsboogers · 18-11-2020 12:13am

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Ok, toning is a term used by soccer moms. Sets of 10-12 reps is for muscle growth, and nothing else, if the weight is challenging. If the weight is light at that rep range then it’s called a warmup.
Sets of 5x5 will promote some muscle growth, but is primarily used for strength training. Theres a book called starting strength, look it up. Of course a clean diets is optimal, but it doesn’t have to be to gain muscle. It only needs to be spot on if you’re a competitive bodybuilder/athlete, as I already said.

I think you're just eager for an argument but your wife or gf always wins so you're on here trying to redeem some self esteem or something. I'm only offering the information I've collected from people with way more experience then me, I'd take their advice over your offerings with added constant little jabs any day.

Dtp1979 · 18-11-2020 1:41am

Godeatsboogers wrote: »

I think you're just eager for an argument but your wife or gf always wins so you're on here trying to redeem some self esteem or something. I'm only offering the information I've collected from people with way more experience then me, I'd take their advice over your offerings with added constant little jabs any day.

You’re information is incorrect. You should really stop giving advice where you have absolutely no business doing so.

Mellor · 18-11-2020 2:29am

Godeatsboogers wrote: »

I'm only offering the information I've collected from people with way more experience then me, I'd take their advice over your offerings with added constant little jabs any day.

You may have misunderstood their advice, as what you have said isn't correct.
It could also be possible that the big guy is peddling broscience and doesn't understand the process despite his results.

Godeatsboogers wrote: »

Muscle grows in proportion to fat so youre in a good position for muscle growth. You should be doing 5 sets, 5 reps of decent weight for muscle growth, 4 sets of 8 reps for growth/toning, 4 sets of 10 or 12 for toning. Plus your diet has to be spot on, protein, carbs, good fats, get rid of chocolate and crisps, you'll find your body is ****ting out the nutrients you need when you're eating that stuff.g

Muscle does not grow in proportion to fat. That's just silly. Otherwise there would be no difference between an massive obese person and a massive bodybuilder.

5x5 is very very typical of a strength program. A strength program will also contribute to muscle growth.
8-12 reps is more aligned with a hypertrophy/muscle growth program, which will also make you stronger. (A typical Dorian Yates program is high rep 10-20 rep per set.)

No junk food is obviously a benefit. But "****ting out the nutrients" is nonsense. The excess macro nutrients in junk is what cause weight gain. If we just sh*t them out, you could eat all the chocolate you like and lose weight.

Godeatsboogers wrote: »

As for toning? Pretty common knowledge that 4 sets of the 10 to 12 reps of light weight is great for toning.

The problem with common knowledge is that misinformation and misunderstanding is also common.
Toning is a buzzword from glossy magazines. It doesn't actually exist. When people say toning they mean something else (even if they don't realise that they do).

A muscle can get bigger or stronger. You can lose (or gain) fat. But a muscle can't be toned.
It doesn't relate to any biological process.

ILoveYourVibes · 20-11-2020 1:10am

Godeatsboogers wrote: »

5 sets of 5 reps of high weight will promote muscle growth, so I've been told by a pretty big bloke who's been weightlifting for over 20 years. The diet tip came from Dorian Yates, and sure he was a professional but he says even for non professionals a diet minus junk food is a big help in gaining weight, muscle mass. As for toning? Pretty common knowledge that 4 sets of the 10 to 12 reps of light weight is great for toning. Also, this ... Is an elipsis, .........., this means nothing

High reps ...build muscle ....at a high enough weight.

Lower reps with high weight ...strength...

Obv tho ..in order to train as a beginner you might need to build strength in order to really get to a point where you can train safely.

Toning ..is building muscle ...nothing more ..you can't actually tone muscle ....the area might look firmer because there is lower body fat etc.

You can look more toned by losing body fat ...or growing muscle.

Muscle doesn't tone ..it gets bigger ..or you lose general body fat.

No junk food is obviously a benefit. But "****ting out the nutrients" is nonsense. The excess macro nutrients in junk is what cause weight gain. If we just sh*t them out, you could eat all the chocolate you like and lose weight.

Actually your body does spit out nutrients from junk food. Partic stuff that will dehydrate you ..it makes your body lose more potassium. Alchohol will do it.

Sugar will also inhibit your body's ability to take up vit d and vit C....therefore also inhibits your calcium.

Sugar also increases excretion of magnesium and chromium from the kidneys.

Since junk food is full of sugar generally ..yes junk food will literally make your body spit out nutrients long term.

This level of excretion has actually been measured in urine. It is a fact that can't be disputed. Junk food makes your body spit out nutrients.

It doesn't just displace nutrient dense foods in the diet. It makes your body literally pee out more more nutrients to a high level that has been observed in urine tests.

Mellor · 20-11-2020 6:18am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

High reps ...build muscle ....at a high enough weight.

Lower reps with high weight ...strength...

Obv tho ..in order to train as a beginner you might need to build strength in order to really get to a point where you can train safely.

Toning ..is building muscle ...nothing more ..you can't actually tone muscle ....the area might look firmer because there is lower body fat etc.

You can look more toned by losing body fat ...or growing muscle.

Muscle doesn't tone ..it gets bigger ..or you lose general body fat.

This is exactly what I said just with poor formatting and weird.

Actually your body does spit out nutrients from junk food. Partic stuff that will dehydrate you ..it makes your body lose more potassium. Alchohol will do it.

Sugar will also inhibit your body's ability to take up vit d and vit C....therefore also inhibits your calcium.

Sugar also increases excretion of magnesium and chromium from the kidneys.

Restricting absorption of some nutrients is not the same as passing out all nutrients. Words are important. Chocolate doesn't dehydrate you. Neither do crisps. Alcohol wasn't mentioned.

Plus, the above also applies to non junk food. Sugar in fruit or other sources will have the same effect.

Since junk food is full of sugar generally

Not really. Most people over eat at meals that are high in fat and carbs (such as take away). They are definitely also junk.

This level of excretion has actually been measured in urine. It is a fact that can't be disputed. Junk food makes your body spit out nutrients.

It doesn't just displace nutrient dense foods in the diet. It makes your body literally pee out more more nutrients to a high level that has been observed in urine tests.

There will be traces of nutrients in urine all the time. This is example of bad use of absolute and relative terms.

Junk is not good for you or not a good diet for anything. Nobody said it was.
But a small amount of chocolate and crisps in your when bulking is not going magically prevent muscle gain. The point was that the claim above are grade A broscience. Micro absorption of vitamen C is not really the level of detail that we are talking about.

If you have evidence to show how any junk in a diet prevents muscle gain, by all means share it.

ILoveYourVibes · 20-11-2020 9:50am

lus, the above also applies to non junk food. Sugar in fruit or other sources will have the same effect.

No the sugar in juices etc are not the same. Firstly it enters the blood stream at a different rate.

The body reacts to and uses natural sugars differently to refined sugars. Natural sugars are broken down MUCH slower as their structure is different to refined sugars.

Fructose glucose and sucrose are different.

Sucrose is table sugar ....it has a diff chemical structure to fructose and glucose . Fructose is in VEGGIES and FRUITS. Glucose is known as grape sugar. Its also in corn.

Out of the three FRUCTOSE has a MUCH LESS measured effect on your blood sugar. But it actually has the sweetest taste

Not all sugars are equal.

Sucrose is (C12H22O11). Glucose is (C6H12O6 . Fructose hast the same molecular structure as glucose (C6H12O6) BUT but glucose has a six member ring and fructose has a five member ring structure. Sucrose is ONE fructose and one glucose molecule. The body breaks these down.

There is also alpha D glucose and beta D glucose.

So as you can see their chemical structures are diff. The effect they have on the body is diff.

Because fructose is metabolized in the liver to glucose, fructose has the lowest glycemic index (GI = 19) of all the natural sugars.Whereas sucrose has a GI of 55.

And the difference between natural fructose and the high fructose corn syrup that is extracted is that actually high fructose corn syrup is not all fructose its about 50% glucose too. Which means its ACTUALLY like sucrose ..but just ALREADY broken down for you. That is why its so much worse than even table sugar. They just call it fructose but its glucose and fructose already broken down. And remember sucrose has a GI of 55 ..this is not even taken into account that most fructose foods like fruit have fibre etc.

https://www.healthdesigns.net/natural-vs-refined-sugar/

Its not simply just the fibre in fruits that makes the sugar better for you than table sugar. Its a lot more.
As i said ..refined sugar increases excretion of certain nutrients from the kidneys. Whereas fructose etc for healthy people is different.

Obv people with diabetes will still need to be avoid juices certain fruits etc. And everything in moderation ...5 apples a day might be a bit much.

Metabolism: Clinical and Experimental showed that consuming a diet consisting of 35% simple refined sugars increased natural excretion rates by 300%!

Mellor wrote: »

Restricting absorption of some nutrients is not the same as passing out all nutrients.
There will be traces of nutrients in urine all the time. This is example of bad use of absolute and relative terms.

No ...this is a measured increase in traces of nutrients in urine under laboratory conditions with an increase in sugar intake.

If you don't believe ME ask your GP or any dietician.

Sugar also contributes to cystitus.

Mellor what you are saying is not logical?

You say sugar is bad for you .....but you don't seem to understand the why it is bad for you.

There will be sugar also in your local takeaway.

Yes too much sat fats ...etc not good for you. No argument here.

Chocolate doesn't dehydrate you. Neither do crisps

No but people with pancreatitis ..can't eat crisps for example.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4975866/

Also on sugar and muscle. I can't prove this ..as its only a theory ...but there is a theory that REFINED sugar inhibits protein synthesis. Therefore reducing lean mass. It is just a theory though. Its thought to be to do with the effects refined sugars have on insulin.

ILoveYourVibes · 20-11-2020 9:55am

So no.

Natural sugars are not the same ..and will not make your body excrete nutrients through the kidneys in the same way refined sugars will.

Natural sugars are chemically different. The body uses them different absorbs them differently and reacts to them differently.

That is besides them coming from nutrient rich and usually fibrous foods.

In writing this ..i am reminded of someone who was a natural sugar phobe not believing sucrose and fructose were totally diff ...having just told him that brocoli had fructose ..he responded that he knew but it was mostly in the stalks ..so he just cut them off!

Mellor · 20-11-2020 11:40am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No the sugar in juices etc are not the same. Firstly it enters the blood stream at a different rate.

The body reacts to and uses natural sugars differently to refined sugars. Natural sugars are broken down MUCH slower as their structure is different to refined sugars.

Fructose glucose and sucrose are different.

Sucrose is table sugar ....it has a diff chemical structure to fructose and glucose . Fructose is in VEGGIES and FRUITS. Glucose is known as grape sugar. Its also in corn.

Out of the three FRUCTOSE has a MUCH LESS measured effect on your blood sugar. But it actually has the sweetest taste

Not all sugars are equal.

What has fructose vrs sucrose have to do with anything in the tread to date.
None of it is relevant.

Sucrose is also found in sugar cane - a natural sugar.
It is found in bags of sugar - refined.

Fructose is in fruit - natural.
It is also in Coca cola and soft drinks - refined.

So as you can see their chemical structures are diff. The effect they have on the body is diff.

Nobody said different sugars don't exist.

You sad sugar blocks vitamen C. None of the above suggest natural sugar won't.

Metabolism: Clinical and Experimental showed that consuming a diet consisting of 35% simple refined sugars increased natural excretion rates by 300%!

Exception rates of what. You are just posting random words without a coherent point. Nothing you have said appears relevant.

No ...this is a measured increase in traces of nutrients in urine under laboratory conditions with an increase in sugar intake.

Right, trace nutrients. Not the nutrition needs for muscle growth - macro nutrients.

You are proving my point tbh.

Sugar also contributes to cystitus.

Cool. Tobacco leads to lung cancer.
Why are we posting irrelevant facts?

No but people with pancreatitis ..can't eat crisps for example.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4975866/

Sucks for them I guess.

Mellor what you are saying is not logical?

You say sugar is bad for you .....but you don't seem to understand the why it is bad for you.

Point out my flawed logic please.
Also point to where I said sugar is bad for you?

Also on sugar and muscle. I can't prove this .

I know you can't. Because it's not true.
Anyone that thinks a small amount of sugar, (or chocolate) will prevent muscle growth shouldn't be giving advice on training/diet. The post above was nonsense, no idea why you are defending it.

Mellor · 20-11-2020 11:53am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So no.
Natural sugars are chemically different.

No they aren't.

Natural sucose and refined sucrose are chemically the same molecule, for example. Same for fructose and glucose.

Refined refers to extracting and isolating the sugar from the fibre, vitamins etc in the natural form.
Again, not relevant but misinformation isn't good.

Honestly, your reading comprehension appears pretty poor. As nothing you have said it relevant, and you posts lack any structure or coherent point.
You just seem to decide you've found an opening and start pasting away anything vague similar.
So back and read the broscience post above and try to figure out which part of your post backs up what he said.

ILoveYourVibes · 20-11-2020 1:03pm

Mellor wrote: »

Honestly, your reading comprehension appears pretty poor.

I am just going to say you are 100% wrong ..but since you have stooped to this level and seem yet ONCE again mellor to want to derail this thread ..that you are not really worth responding to

Please don't respond to my posts again you are muted.

Weight lifting advice?

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