Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

Deep Thought · 24-09-2020 9:29am

@OP

At 40 I decided I needed a change.

I went back to college part time while still working. Luckily for me the company paid. But you can claim back education fees.

It was tough, but I got my degree and then was able to get into the area I wanted.

The Mulk · 24-09-2020 9:34am

Quadrivium wrote: »

Apprenticeships in the UK are run differently to in Ireland and better in my opinion, the full apprenticeship usually only take 3 years and is of the same standard as the Irish craft qualifications.
Maybe the OP could get an NVQ 2 part time distance learning from the UK in Electrical trades then pursue an apprenticeship in Ireland from 2nd or 3rd year.
Check this out OP https://www.ableskills.co.uk/electrician-training-courses/city-guilds-2330-level-2-electrical-course/
https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/pages/become-an-electrician

Is a UK qual. not an NVQ level 3, which is seen as equivalent to QQI level 5, one level below our National Craft Cert at level 6?
Plus with Brexit , what will happen with UK quals. in the EU?

aido79 · 24-09-2020 10:40am

Augeo wrote: »

Wouldn't a full house require inspection by an electrician?

"The skills and qualifications gained on this course will enable you to carry out domestic electrical work as an electrician from a as little as replacing a socket or light fitting, adding a socket or light fitting even up to a full house rewire but any alterations to circuits would need to be inspected and tested by an electrician who is a member of the competent persons scheme. To be a member of the competent persons scheme you must hold your DEI, Safe Isolation and the 18th Edition qualifications plus have electrical experience (2 years)"

Even with an inspection needed by an electrician it is still not a good substitute for a trade qualification. It's a race to the bottom with qualifications like this in the UK.

arccosh · 24-09-2020 11:44am

aido79 wrote: »

Labouring is part of the learning process in most construction apprenticeships but there are plenty of apprentices who don't have to go through that. As a blocklayer would you allow someone with only 2 years of experience to build your house?

The link I shared is relevant as it shows what a shambles the UK system is if someone can perform the duties of an electrician after doing a 15 day course with no previous experience.

just to shed more light on this ...

The UK approach is that everything is standardised, so whatever install you walk into, will be done to the same spec... (don't reply just yet, I will explain the caveats as you go along, and yes I know Ireland have this too)

NVQ2 is not someone who does the full job either, they can do all the donkey work and get everything installed, but aren't legally allowed to walk away from an energised setup that they have worked on, or rollout a design (say re-wire a house).

You can't sign off on your own work at all in the UK (whatever level you are) and need an independent NVQ3 install inspection electrician to sign off on an install for it to be legal and in spec....

Now, I know you're looking at this thinking there are plenty of holes in this.... there is....

will everything be in spec...no it won't, and you will have a lot of NVQ2 guys walk away from older installs etc... (theoretically older installs shouldn't exist though, and this is sort of enforced by a back channel way through insurance companies who won't insure your premises unless you have in spec install and in date inspection cert, signed by a NVQ3 inspection electrician)

can you pay someone at NVQ2 to do a load of work that is unsigned, of course you can... do you have a leg to stand on if there are any issues or accidents, no..

3 year apprenticeship with NVQ2 qualification will mean f*ck all, so you do the NVQ3 qualification in your specialty (domestic, industrial, specialist industries etc....) meaning another few months work and sign off....

There is also the ESC/JIB card & IET regs exams which I suppose would be similar-ish to RECI recognition, although to have full insurance, you need these to function as a business and be able to sign off..

so in the end, you wouldn't be far off 4 years in the UK (if not over in some areas) ....

coming back to NVQ2 level. The UK educational system is far different than Ireland's....

Ireland has a sort of a pyramid setup, where you have a broad knowledge of foundations in a lot of topics and as you move up educational levels, you focus more in your individual topics, while still maintaining knowledge in similar topics but not to a lot of depth.....

The UK is far more modularised, so you do the relevent training in the area you work..

This is where those 15 week courses appear....

Can someone walk in off the street and do them - of course
Can they pass them - quiet possibly (but they're not easy)
Can they then do install work - they will have been assesed to standard, so theoretially yes
Is it a legal install - No, they should technically have the IET regs exam done also, along with their ECS/JIB card (further exams) and (depending on the type of install) be of NVQ3 level along with inspection of work by an independent NVQ3 approved electrician...

why are the courses there then?
-some people will progress to NVQ3
-some firms will employ NVQ2 to do the donkey work (Electrician's mate)
-some industries will indirectly work with power, so instead of having to have a certified electrician on site when a fuse blows, they will train guys to NVQ2 level to do initial level 1 maybe 2 fault diagnosis and repair work which doesn't effect the overall initial design....

I was offered NVQ2 for doing install work (I was a telecoms tech at the time, no formal electrician training)... this would have allowed me to install radios and network equipment, then they had a NVQ3 inspection electrician come in for a few hours and sign off my work .... I ended up not needing it for the project, but I did hold a City and Guilds Authorised Person OPS cert for 2 years....

AP OPS is AP on a specified piece of operatioal kit, in this case a 400V UPS... we got manufacturer training on safety and level 2 fault investigation, again, I've no electrician qualifications.... the do require prior knowledge for this, which I demonstrated with a telecoms apprenticeship an electronics HNC....

Overall, is the Ireland or UK approach better? I think they are both sufficient for the industries that are present in each country.... Ireland is a smaller country so it make sense to have a broad knowledge of a lot of things rather than a modular approach as in the UK.

You still get cowboys everywhere though, either side isn't fool proof.

24-09-2020 2:07pm

aido79 wrote: »

Even with an inspection needed by an electrician it is still not a good substitute for a trade qualification. It's a race to the bottom with qualifications like this in the UK.

Race to the bottom or get folk with less qualifications to do the donkey work as as arccosh mentioned.

It's similar in the US iirc ........ you get lads that are qualified just to wire panels, lads qualified just to do domestic stuff ....... folk for LV, folk for ELV

arccosh wrote: »

..................

...........
.............

why are the courses there then?
-some people will progress to NVQ3
-some firms will employ NVQ2 to do the donkey work (Electrician's mate)
-some industries will indirectly work with power, so instead of having to have a certified electrician on site when a fuse blows, they will train guys to NVQ2 level to do initial level 1 maybe 2 fault diagnosis and repair work which doesn't effect the overall initial design....

.................

aido79 · 24-09-2020 3:13pm

arccosh wrote: »

just to shed more light on this ...

The UK approach is that everything is standardised, so whatever install you walk into, will be done to the same spec... (don't reply just yet, I will explain the caveats as you go along, and yes I know Ireland have this too)

NVQ2 is not someone who does the full job either, they can do all the donkey work and get everything installed, but aren't legally allowed to walk away from an energised setup that they have worked on, or rollout a design (say re-wire a house).

You can't sign off on your own work at all in the UK (whatever level you are) and need an independent NVQ3 install inspection electrician to sign off on an install for it to be legal and in spec....

Now, I know you're looking at this thinking there are plenty of holes in this.... there is....

will everything be in spec...no it won't, and you will have a lot of NVQ2 guys walk away from older installs etc... (theoretically older installs shouldn't exist though, and this is sort of enforced by a back channel way through insurance companies who won't insure your premises unless you have in spec install and in date inspection cert, signed by a NVQ3 inspection electrician)

can you pay someone at NVQ2 to do a load of work that is unsigned, of course you can... do you have a leg to stand on if there are any issues or accidents, no..

3 year apprenticeship with NVQ2 qualification will mean f*ck all, so you do the NVQ3 qualification in your specialty (domestic, industrial, specialist industries etc....) meaning another few months work and sign off....

There is also the ESC/JIB card & IET regs exams which I suppose would be similar-ish to RECI recognition, although to have full insurance, you need these to function as a business and be able to sign off..

so in the end, you wouldn't be far off 4 years in the UK (if not over in some areas) ....

coming back to NVQ2 level. The UK educational system is far different than Ireland's....

Ireland has a sort of a pyramid setup, where you have a broad knowledge of foundations in a lot of topics and as you move up educational levels, you focus more in your individual topics, while still maintaining knowledge in similar topics but not to a lot of depth.....

The UK is far more modularised, so you do the relevent training in the area you work..

This is where those 15 week courses appear....

Can someone walk in off the street and do them - of course
Can they pass them - quiet possibly (but they're not easy)
Can they then do install work - they will have been assesed to standard, so theoretially yes
Is it a legal install - No, they should technically have the IET regs exam done also, along with their ECS/JIB card (further exams) and (depending on the type of install) be of NVQ3 level along with inspection of work by an independent NVQ3 approved electrician...

why are the courses there then?
-some people will progress to NVQ3
-some firms will employ NVQ2 to do the donkey work (Electrician's mate)
-some industries will indirectly work with power, so instead of having to have a certified electrician on site when a fuse blows, they will train guys to NVQ2 level to do initial level 1 maybe 2 fault diagnosis and repair work which doesn't effect the overall initial design....

I was offered NVQ2 for doing install work (I was a telecoms tech at the time, no formal electrician training)... this would have allowed me to install radios and network equipment, then they had a NVQ3 inspection electrician come in for a few hours and sign off my work .... I ended up not needing it for the project, but I did hold a City and Guilds Authorised Person OPS cert for 2 years....

AP OPS is AP on a specified piece of operatioal kit, in this case a 400V UPS... we got manufacturer training on safety and level 2 fault investigation, again, I've no electrician qualifications.... the do require prior knowledge for this, which I demonstrated with a telecoms apprenticeship an electronics HNC....

Overall, is the Ireland or UK approach better? I think they are both sufficient for the industries that are present in each country.... Ireland is a smaller country so it make sense to have a broad knowledge of a lot of things rather than a modular approach as in the UK.

You still get cowboys everywhere though, either side isn't fool proof.

Thank you for the explanation. I think the most important part is that to get to the same level as an electrician in Ireland someone would still have train for 4 years in the UK. Is that right?

arccosh · 24-09-2020 8:10pm

aido79 wrote: »

Thank you for the explanation. I think the most important part is that to get to the same level as an electrician in Ireland someone would still have train for 4 years in the UK. Is that right?

England/Wales have "domestic installer" which can be done in 2 years (learning and OJT)...

But yes, your Irish like for like electrician in the UK would have the same level of training...that's where the ECS/JIB card comes in...

They have 3 levels, Core, Approved and Technician.

Core you can apply for after your NVQ3 (so about 2/3 years normally to do that)
Approved you can apply for after holding the Core card for 2 years (so 4 years min)
Then Technician is after 5 years of holding an approved card (9 years min)

So to get around any snags, just go for an Electrician with an ESC/JIB approved card ... which is easily checked on their website if it's valid.

thing to note, yes you can do those NVQ crash courses where you could get a level 3 in 12 to 18 months ... but you would definitely need previous experience/knowledge to manage that and pass all the practical tests

roofer1988 · 24-09-2020 8:50pm

Danny552 wrote: »

Electrician rates. Effective: 01 September 2019

Phase 2 €274.95
Phase 4 €412.23
Phase 6 €595.53
4th Year €733.20

Going by older pay rates it has gone up a good bit.
You have to look past the pay for the first 18 months and think of the end result, well worth it I think with great opportunities in the future.

Are electricians getting this kind of money qualified?. dont think many contactors paying the rate

Danny552 · 24-09-2020 10:42pm

roofer1988 wrote: »

Are electricians getting this kind of money qualified?. dont think many contactors paying the rate

There the rates of pay you get at each phase they cant under pay you. When your qualified you would be on more for sure i have spoken to electricians that are on €800 up to 1k a week.

25-09-2020 8:50am

Augeo wrote: »

......

Most lads working with the major contractors are on €50k ish basic, charged out at €80k to the client.

roofer1988 wrote: »

Are electricians getting this kind of money qualified?. dont think many contactors paying the rate

Maybe some lads working for domestic outfits would be on less, not much or many though.

kippy · 25-09-2020 8:53am

The electrical is the best paying apprenticeship and the most in demand from both employers and potential apprentices.
But if you did get into that one you are essentially earning serious money before you even qualify and guarenteed 700-800 quid a week (usually more) after finishing.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Granted it has its downsides from a purely financial/time perspective theres very little out there better than it.

Danny552 · 25-09-2020 10:57pm

Does anyone know the salary for a electrical site supervisor,
compared to a electrical site manager?

25-09-2020 11:54pm

Danny552 wrote: »

Does anyone know the salary for a electrical site supervisor,
compared to a electrical site manager?

Are you the chap that's thinking of starting an electrical apprenticeship?

Danny552 · 26-09-2020 12:09am

Augeo wrote: »

Are you the chap that's thinking of starting an electrical apprenticeship?

I am yeah

26-09-2020 12:22am

Is the the salary for an electrical site supervisor and an electrical site manager key to your ambition?

Anyway. Last major project I worked on that had an electrical supervisor didn't have an electrical manager.... Electrical supervisor reported to the construction manager. I doubt there was much difference in their packages TBH.

Your question is best answered by how long are two different bits of string.

Danny552 · 28-09-2020 11:04am

Hi lads still no luck getting into an apprenticeship, didn't think would be this hard I wonder are they looking at my age and would want a younger lad.

Have been told if I get into a big company I would be a spotter for a year. If so I should move to another company as once your doing your apprenticeship it's easy to move around.

How long does it normal take to get into phase 2 ? If it takes a year to get into phase 2 would you still be finished in 4 years or longer ?

28-09-2020 11:23am

Danny552 wrote: »

Hi lads still no luck getting into an apprenticeship, didn't think would be this hard I wonder are they looking at my age and would want a younger lad.............

How long have you been trying to get an apprenticeship?

Danny552 · 28-09-2020 11:29am

Augeo wrote: »

How long have you been trying to get an apprenticeship?

Around 3 weeks

The Mulk · 28-09-2020 11:30am

Bear in mind, a lot of the ETB's that offer Phase 2 have been closed and are only opening back up on reduced capacity.
Contact SOLAS, or your local ETB to see how long the current wait time is from registration to Phase 2.

It's a great trade to have and allows plenty of scope to advance. I left the construction field 10 years ago and work in a totally different sector than when I started out, but the skills and competencies I gained during my time working as an electrician helped me get the opportunities.

Danny552 · 28-09-2020 12:08pm

The Mulk wrote: »

Bear in mind, a lot of the ETB's that offer Phase 2 have been closed and are only opening back up on reduced capacity.
Contact SOLAS, or your local ETB to see how long the current wait time is from registration to Phase 2.

It's a great trade to have and allows plenty of scope to advance. I left the construction field 10 years ago and work in a totally different sector than when I started out, but the skills and competencies I gained during my time working as an electrician helped me get the opportunities.

I will get onto them once I get registered I know it would be around 6 months or so until get called to phase 2 .
Yeah true hopefully in a few months will be back to normal at that rate you would be lucky to finish 6 years cant see apprentice waiting to long to be called to each phase if they have done plenty of on the job training.

Danny552 · 28-09-2020 12:10pm

Do colleges close for summer.
Say I start now and get called for phase 2 around may would I have to wait till September to start college or is it different when you do an a apprenticeship.

The Mulk · 28-09-2020 12:12pm

Danny552 wrote: »

Do colleges close for summer.
Say I start now and get called for phase 2 around may would I have to wait till September to start college or is it different when you do an a apprenticeship.

You generally go to an ETB for Phase 2, where are you living?

28-09-2020 12:38pm

Danny552 wrote: »

Around 3 weeks

3 weeks isn't that long to be honest.
Consider that school leavers would have all started looking since before the leaving.......... you might have to wait until 2021 to secure one, but that shouldn't be a huge problem if you really want it surely.

Danny552 · 28-09-2020 12:43pm

The Mulk wrote: »

You generally go to an ETB for Phase 2, where are you living?

Dublin

Danny552 · 28-09-2020 12:45pm

Augeo wrote: »

3 weeks isn't that long to be honest.
Consider that school leavers would have all started looking since before the leaving.......... you might have to wait until 2021 to secure one, but that shouldn't be a huge problem if you really want it surely.

Not to far away really , but il keep applying and maybe change my cover letter , would they look at someone more if you have a bit of electrical experience or does it matter .

The Mulk · 28-09-2020 12:49pm

Danny552 wrote: »

Dublin

You're in luck so,
Tallaght, Loughlinstown, Ballyfermot, Finglas and Baldoyle (All ex-FAS training centres)all have multiple Phase 2 electrical classes.
20 weeks per course ran twice a year in each centre.

johnnyfruitcake · 28-09-2020 12:55pm

Danny552 wrote: »

When your qualified you would be on more for sure i have spoken to electricians that are on €800 up to 1k a week.

There's not too many on that money outside of Dublin or Cork, only lads working for the bigger companies who pay the rates.

A lot of big contractors don't pay the rate properly or the other payments that you're meant to get.

28-09-2020 12:58pm

Lots of lads are great at telliing you they're on a grand a week without mentioning the 10 hour days and the half day Saturday :pac:

Danny552 · 28-09-2020 2:26pm

The Mulk wrote: »

You're in luck so,
Tallaght, Loughlinstown, Ballyfermot, Finglas and Baldoyle (All ex-FAS training centres)all have multiple Phase 2 electrical classes.
20 weeks per course ran twice a year in each centre.

But I could be sent to cork or anywhere really would they try send you to thses colleges if you are close to them?

Danny552 · 28-09-2020 2:30pm

Augeo wrote: »

Lots of lads are great at telliing you they're on a grand a week without mentioning the 10 hour days and the half day Saturday :pac:

Yeah true I would say they would need to do over time to get up to 1k a week then you get taxed aswell.

Most would come out with just under 800 a week for working normal hours Monday to Thursday and half day Friday.

Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

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