Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

heffo500 · 28-10-2020 10:40am

At least with a trade, if you have the right drive you can set up your own business and grow it as much as your willing to put into it and reap the rewards.

Working in the finance industry where I am, there is very limited potential to do so.

Yes working on a trade can be taxing on the body but you can upskill and become an engineer, foreman, or run your own business and have others do the heavy work.

OMM 0000 · 28-10-2020 11:17am

You also finish work when you finish work.

Carter D · 28-10-2020 12:56pm

The one thing I hate about trade work is paying for parking especially in city centre. Most of the time you will have to pay for parking so your losing a good bit of your weekly salary. Could be paying 50 a week to park In town 5 days a week .

Apprentices only get €255 a week starting off .

28-10-2020 1:06pm

Brandon75 wrote: »

Hi I'm leading more to become a lift engineer apprenticeship instead of an electrician apprenticeship.........

Lift engineer would include lots of mechanical stuff ......... also there's fook loads of legislation around lifts and it can be really high pressure (change one out over a weekend for instance). Loads of out of hours work also.

I know of two lifting equipment companies that stopped working on lifts as it was too much of a pain in the hole........ they focus on lifting equipment solely now, no lifts.

28-10-2020 2:24pm

I completed a 4 year electrical apprenticeship and later in life completed a degree in electrical engineering, so I have been though the times and tribulations of both.

Electrical trade pros:
- Earn while you learn.
- Can gain very valuable experience but only if with the right employer.
- Reasonable earning potential
- A ticket to travel the world
- Can open doors to other opportunities
- Opportunities to up-skill
- There is always work if you are sufficiently motivated

Electrical trade cons:
- Not very employable as an electrician working on your tools once you are in your mid forties. Too young to retire and perceived as too old for a lot of physical work. You need an exit plan!
- Can get very monotonous. Try connecting 500 identical light fittings

- Could end up working anywhere, locations don't always suit
- Although I have seen some electricians make great money this only happened when they migrated to a very different role. Examples: Electrical supervisor, project manager and contracts manager. Therefore no longer working as an electrician.
- In recent years it has been a bit of a race to the bottom, standards dropping.
- Massive variations in pay and conditions.

In my experience electricians and other trades that serve their time in the domestic sector (AKA "house bashing") generally have far less earning potential. In all trades some apprentices push themselves and it shows. Others just go through the motions, you get out what you put in.

Some trades pay far better than others, this was one reason I choose electrical.
As others have said, if you don't like the pay then don't do it.

I'm sure that some will disagree but the above reflects my observations as someone that has worked or studied full time in the electrical industry for the last 30 years (yes, I am old).

Carter D · 28-10-2020 3:24pm

What would be better to get into electrician or alarm installer. There isnt an apprenticeship for alarm installer and seems alot easier work for the same amount of money only thing is you can only do alarms, access control and CCTV.

Where a qualified electrician could move into alarms if they wanted to .

My first choice would be to join the garda but its hard to get into I dont want to waste my time in a dead end job with no room for improvement.

This is it · 28-10-2020 3:30pm

Carter D wrote: »

What would be better to get into electrician or alarm installer. There isnt an apprenticeship for alarm installer and seems alot easier work for the same amount of money only thing is you can only do alarms, access control and CCTV.

Where a qualified electrician could move into alarms if they wanted to .

My first choice would be to join the garda but its hard to get into I dont want to waste my time in a dead end job with no room for improvement.

Were you not looking for pharma courses here a few weeks ago?

Alarms is a 4 year apprenticeship now as far as I know, it's named electronic security systems.

Brandon75 · 28-10-2020 3:30pm

Augeo wrote: »

Lift engineer would include lots of mechanical stuff ......... also there's fook loads of legislation around lifts and it can be really high pressure (change one out over a weekend for instance). Loads of out of hours work also.

I know of two lifting equipment companies that stopped working on lifts as it was too much of a pain in the hole........ they focus on lifting equipment solely now, no lifts.

Looks hard to get into alright someone who works for kone Ireland said once qualified they will be on 26 - 27 euro an hour which is just over 1k a week not sure if before tax or after sure an electrician is on around 766 a week after tax so cant see a lift installer making that much more .

28-10-2020 4:01pm

Brandon75 wrote: »

Looks hard to get into alright someone who works for kone Ireland said once qualified they will be on 26 - 27 euro an hour which is just over 1k a week not sure if before tax or after sure an electrician is on around 766 a week after tax so cant see a lift installer making that much more .

No one quotes hourly rates net ............. someone posted here that on large projects in Dublin electricians were on €24/hour plus their lodge payment...... that's €3k/month net or €700/week ish ......... not including the lodge or any pension deductions.

You can rest assured the chap you spoke to won't be on €80k gross without doing overtime or strange hours. Probably plenty opportunity for nights and weekend work in the lifts game.

No up and down jokes from me :pac:

I'd go electrical tbh if I'd a choice.

Carter D · 28-10-2020 4:33pm

This is it wrote: »

Were you not looking for pharma courses here a few weeks ago?

Alarms is a 4 year apprenticeship now as far as I know, it's named electronic security systems.

Pharma course? No dont even know what that would be.

It's not an apprenticeship yet there looking to being it in but most places I have rang said they train you In but doesnt take that long and start around 400 a week so basic wage which is pretty good compared to apprenticeship.

This is it · 28-10-2020 4:42pm

Carter D wrote: »

Pharma course? No dont even know what that would be.

It's not an apprenticeship yet there looking to being it in but most places I have rang said they train you In but doesnt take that long and start around 400 a week so basic wage which is pretty good compared to apprenticeship.

Ah maybe it wasn't pharma, it was on the Springboard thread.

Anyway, what you do depends on what you want and what you're interested in. Research and choose. One thing to note is you need a decent level of maths for an electrical apprenticeship. Phase 2 is grand, 4 and 6 are steep learning curves.

Brandon75 · 28-10-2020 4:44pm

Augeo wrote: »

No one quotes hourly rates net ............. someone posted here that on large projects in Dublin electricians were on €24/hour plus their lodge payment...... that's €3k/month net or €700/week ish ......... not including the lodge or any pension deductions.

You can rest assured the chap you spoke to won't be on €80k gross without doing overtime or strange hours. Probably plenty opportunity for nights and weekend work in the lifts game.

No up and down jokes from me :pac:

I'd go electrical tbh if I'd a choice.

Sounds a bit much alright haha , wouldn't be complaining if was coming out with over 4k a month.

28-10-2020 5:54pm

Carter D wrote: »

What would be better to get into electrician or alarm installer.

Electrician, definitely. It is an easy transition from electrcian to alarm installer. I should know as I installed many an alarm (and I am an electrician).

There isnt an apprenticeship for alarm installer and seems alot easier work for the same amount of money only thing is you can only do alarms, access control and CCTV.

Generally it is a lot less money in my experience. Again as an electrician I have installed plenty of access control, intruder alarms, fire alarms, CCTV in addition to multiple other life safety systems.
Intruder alarms and security related kit is becoming easier and easier to self install, which is why so many people are doing just that. Plenty of posters on the IOT forum have successfully installed their own systems, go and have a look.
Therefore I would not recommend this as a career choice. I’m sure this will not impact the commercial sector but that is quite a crowded place.

Brandon75 wrote: »

Looks hard to get into alright someone who works for kone Ireland said once qualified they will be on 26 - 27 euro an hour which is just over 1k a week not sure if before tax or after sure an electrician is on around 766 a week after tax so cant see a lift installer making that much more .

It really depends.
Many other electricians with additional specialized training can and do get paid more than that. Specialized areas pay better than that such as instrumentation roles, particularly in the pharmaceutical sector.
Many electricians (myself included) transitioned into roles such as that.
The trick to keeping yourself employed as a well paid electrician is to be adaptable, although lift installers are highly skilled they only install lifts so opportunities are naturally more limited.

aido79 · 28-10-2020 6:09pm

Carter D wrote: »

What would be better to get into electrician or alarm installer. There isnt an apprenticeship for alarm installer and seems alot easier work for the same amount of money only thing is you can only do alarms, access control and CCTV.

Where a qualified electrician could move into alarms if they wanted to .

My first choice would be to join the garda but its hard to get into I dont want to waste my time in a dead end job with no room for improvement.

If you are getting into it purely for the money I'd be hesitant to recommend either to be honest but in terms of actually learning a trade electrician would win hands down and provides an avenue to better career progression if that's something that interests you. I'm currently halfway through a degree in electrical engineering having spent 15 years as an electrician...probably 12 of those wishing I wasn't an electrician but kept at it because the money was good. Just be wary about getting into it just because it pays well coming from experience.

Carter D · 28-10-2020 8:08pm

aido79 wrote: »

If you are getting into it purely for the money I'd be hesitant to recommend either to be honest but in terms of actually learning a trade electrician would win hands down and provides an avenue to better career progression if that's something that interests you. I'm currently halfway through a degree in electrical engineering having spent 15 years as an electrician...probably 12 of those wishing I wasn't an electrician but kept at it because the money was good. Just be wary about getting into it just because it pays well coming from experience.

I wouldn't get in purely for the money, I would go into something else if that was the chase . Money side is important . I think there is more room to progress in electrical trade more so then others .

Brandon75 · 28-10-2020 9:59pm

2011 wrote: »

It really depends.
Many other electricians with additional specialized training can and do get paid more than that. Specialized areas pay better than that such as instrumentation roles, particularly in the pharmaceutical sector.
Many electricians (myself included) transitioned into roles such as that.

Yeah I have heard electrical & Instrumentation is the best to get into but dont see many apprenticeship for it mostly just electrician apprenticeships . Are the phases similar to electrician or is it a completely different apprenticeship altogether.

28-10-2020 10:17pm

Brandon75 wrote: »

Yeah I have heard electrical & Instrumentation is the best to get into but dont see many apprenticeship for it mostly just electrician apprenticeships

Yes, an excellent trade. Many that do this tend to do a lot of commissioning which demands detailed understanding of control systems, hence pays well.

Are the phases similar to electrician or is it a completely different apprenticeship altogether.

I didn’t do this apprenticeship so I can’t say. I learned instrumentation the hard way post my electrical apprenticeship. As an engineer I have worked with a number of individuals who have the qualification and they were highly knowledgeable and professional.

heffo500 · 28-10-2020 11:01pm

2011 wrote: »

Yes, an excellent trade. Many that do this tend to do a lot of commissioning which demands detailed understanding of control systems, hence pays well.

I didn’t do this apprenticeship so I can’t say. I learned instrumentation the hard way post my electrical apprenticeship. As an engineer I have worked with a number of individuals who have the qualification and they were highly knowledgeable and professional.

If your qualified in instrumentation, can you do electrical work such as house rewires and sign them off etc?

aido79 · 29-10-2020 10:04am

heffo500 wrote: »

If your qualified in instrumentation, can you do electrical work such as house rewires and sign them off etc?

I doubt safe electric would recognise an instrumentation trade certificate for the person to become an REC to sign off on the work. They really are very different types of work and I can't imagine someone qualified in instrumentation wanting to rewire a house. It would be like asking a cabinet maker to roof a house.

heffo500 · 29-10-2020 10:06am

Thanks for the answer, it would from a point of view of nixers etc, that I was asking. As I wouldn't think there are many instrumentation nixers.

arccosh · 29-10-2020 10:33am

if money is the end game.... get yourself a degree apprenticeship in a technology sector in the UK...

Will be 3 to 4 years, then a graduate program (1 to 2 years)... you will be an engineer in most places by then, with a degree under your belt, all the while being paid.

It'll be tough work though with the current levels of unemployment at present, but tech, defence and utilities are business as usual.

29-10-2020 10:37am

aido79 wrote: »

I doubt safe electric would recognise an instrumentation trade certificate for the person to become an REC to sign off on the work. They really are very different types of work and I can't imagine someone qualified in instrumentation wanting to rewire a house. It would be like asking a cabinet maker to roof a house.

Indeed, instrumentation is mainly ELV ........... instrument techs can't work on even low voltage stuff (as in wire them etc) in industrial settings.

You have plenty electricians with further training or experience working on instrumentation so at a glance it might appear a grey enough divide.

aido79 · 29-10-2020 11:06am

heffo500 wrote: »

Thanks for the answer, it would from a point of view of nixers etc, that I was asking. As I wouldn't think there are many instrumentation nixers.

Most nixers aren't signed off...that's why they're called nixers.
Signing off work requires an electrician to be a registered electrical contractor and fully insured and licenced. If the electrician is only doing nixers it probably isn't worth their while having all of that in place as it wouldn't be cost effective.

aido79 · 29-10-2020 11:19am

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, instrumentation is mainly ELV ........... instrument techs can't work on even low voltage stuff (as in wire them etc) in industrial settings.

You have plenty electricians with further training or experience working on instrumentation so at a glance it might appear a grey enough divide.

Is there a way for someone who has worked only on instrumentation to be able to do electrical work?

I have done it the way you mentioned, started as electrician and then got further training and experience to work on instrumentation but just wondering if there is a way to go the opposite direction in Ireland?

It would presumably be better for the person to have done an E&I apprenticeship rather than a straight instrumentation apprenticeship in the first place.

29-10-2020 11:29am

aido79 wrote: »

Is there a way for someone who has worked only on instrumentation to be able to do electrical work?

......

I'm not at all sure.
There are as you know huge safety issues ..... A straight instrumentation trade seems very limited to me conceptually. I'd have no doubt any electrician could do loop checks after 10 minutes of training..... And wiring a junction box that contains no LV or higher doesn't require specific instrumentation expertise.

A straight instrumentation trade could land a person into a lifetime of calibrations etc.

aido79 · 29-10-2020 11:45am

Augeo wrote: »

I'm not at all sure.
There are as you know huge safety issues ..... A straight instrumentation trade seems very limited to me conceptually. I'd have no doubt any electrician could do loop checks after 10 minutes of training..... And wiring a junction box that contains no LV or higher doesn't require specific instrumentation expertise.

A straight instrumentation trade could land a person into a lifetime of calibrations etc.

I agree. I've worked with a few guys who were only qualified in instrumentation the work that they could and jobs that they could apply for was very limited.

Carter D · 29-10-2020 11:52am

How often would you wear a hard hat working as an electrician?
Is it true wearing a hat most of the time makes you go bald ?

Carter D · 29-10-2020 11:58am

So would it be better to get into electrician apprenticeship rather then E&I as you would have more chance of getting work . I would think if people knew you work in the electrical field they would think you could be able to wire a house or do nixers but that wouldn't be the chase if you did an apprenticeship in E&I

29-10-2020 11:58am

Carter D wrote: »

How often would you wear a hard hat working as an electrician? ..........

If on-site (construction) 100% of the time, not in the canteen or in offices etc of course.

aido79 · 29-10-2020 11:59am

Carter D wrote: »

How often would you wear a hard hat working as an electrician?
Is it true wearing a hat most of the time makes you go bald ?

Probably as often as you would wear boots on most sites these days.
No it's not true.

aido79 · 29-10-2020 12:33pm

Carter D wrote: »

So would it be better to get into electrician apprenticeship rather then E&I as you would have more chance of getting work .

If you can get an E&I apprenticeship grab it with both hands. It allows you to do both and gives you more choice and most likely better jobs in the future.

Carter D wrote: »

I would think if people knew you work in the electrical field they would think you could be able to wire a house or do nixers but that wouldn't be the chase if you did an apprenticeship in E&I

It can be hard but unless these people are family or close friends you will eventually learn to say no to them. They are rarely worth the hassle.

Bass Reeves · 29-10-2020 12:41pm

Carter D wrote: »

How often would you wear a hard hat working as an electrician?
Is it true wearing a hat most of the time makes you go bald ?

You should wear it all the time. When working on line electricity the head is one of the biggest risks of getting a shock. It also is the most likely place you will hit if you get a shock elsewhere. The hats are actually shockproof. On any building site no matter how big or small you be expected to wear a hard hat. As well even those working in industrial situations usually are expected to wear hard hats in equipment rooms

salmocab · 29-10-2020 12:50pm

Hard hat, boots, glasses, gloves and vest are the norm now on most sites. Add on harness if working at height. Presumably face masks too currently

salmocab · 29-10-2020 12:51pm

aido79 wrote: »

It can be hard but unless these people are family or close friends you will eventually learn to say no to them. They are rarely worth the hassle.

This is true, they are never as handy as they sounded and the person your doing the job for seems to think they done you a favour asking you.

listermint · 29-10-2020 12:58pm

arccosh wrote: »

if money is the end game.... get yourself a degree apprenticeship in a technology sector in the UK...

Will be 3 to 4 years, then a graduate program (1 to 2 years)... you will be an engineer in most places by then, with a degree under your belt, all the while being paid.

It'll be tough work though with the current levels of unemployment at present, but tech, defence and utilities are business as usual.

Why would you get a degree apprenticeship in a country that is leaving all mutual qualification recognitions in two months time. That would be a bad idea.

Brandon75 · 29-10-2020 1:13pm

aido79 wrote: »

If you can get an E&I apprenticeship grab it with both hands. It allows you to do both and gives you more choice and most likely better jobs in the future.

It can be hard but unless these people are family or close friends you will eventually learn to say no to them. They are rarely worth the hassle.

I have family members like that, they think once they can get it free and you have nothing else to be doing.

29-10-2020 1:16pm

Augeo wrote: »

A straight instrumentation trade seems very limited to me conceptually.

It is anything but limited. The industry is enormous in the pharma, power generation, manufacturing and food sectors in Ireland.
I worked in this role in the oil and gas sector abroad and was paid handsomely.....

I'd have no doubt any electrician could do loop checks after 10 minutes of training.....

...correct, I did many a loop check as an electrician.

And wiring a junction box that contains no LV or higher doesn't require specific instrumentation expertise.

Also correct, but that implies that this is all that instrument techs do which is most certainly waaaaay off the mark.

A straight instrumentation trade could land a person into a lifetime of calibrations etc.

That is a bit like saying that a straight electrician job could land a person into a lifetime of changing fuses etc.

It depends on the role. As an instrument tech I certainly did my fair share of calibrations across an enormous variety of instruments in a GMP environment and it was not the most exciting work. This role also gave me the opportunity to do far more interesting things such as commissioning complex systems.

For me working as an instrumentation technician and working as an electrician had interesting days as well as boring days. The big difference for me was that the instrument tech roles paid better, required more technical understanding and on balance was more interesting. I also found that there was even more demand for instrument techs than electricians.

As above an E & I apprenticeship would be my preference (I did not do this, it did not exist at the time).

Carter D · 29-10-2020 1:29pm

aido79 wrote: »

If you can get an E&I apprenticeship grab it with both hands. It allows you to do both and gives you more choice and most likely better jobs in the future.

So E&I you will learn domestic and industrial?

Did someone not say before if you did E&I apprenticeship you wouldn't know how to wire a house or learn the same as you would in a electrician apprenticeship.

I would like to know and understand how you start and finish to wire a house.

29-10-2020 1:30pm

2011 wrote: »

It is anything but limited. The industry is enormous in the pharma, power generation, manufacturing and food sectors in Ireland.
I worked in this role in the oil and gas sector abroad and was paid handsomely.....

...correct, I did many a loop check as an electrician.

..............

Yes, but you were an electrician who went into instrumentation.

2011 wrote: »

.................

It depends on the role. As an instrument tech I certainly did my fair share of calibrations across an enormous variety of instruments in a GMP environment and it was not the most exciting work. This role also gave me the opportunity to do far more interesting things such as commissioning complex systems. ..............

I should have said CAN be very limited.......... very easy for an instrument tech to get stuck in cals tbh.

2011 wrote: »

...........

Also correct, but that implies that this is all that instrument techs do which is most certainly waaaaay off the mark. ...........

Essentiually we are saying E&I is a preferable qualification.
No need to nit pick every point literally.

29-10-2020 1:50pm

Augeo wrote: »

Yes, but you were an electrician who went into instrumentation.

Yes, I was just agreeing with you and pointing out that there is a tad more to it

very easy for an instrument tech to get stuck in cals tbh.

Again I agree with you, I'm just making the point that all trades can potentially lead to an employee getting stuck doing mundane work. A mechanic can get stuck changing tyres, and electrician can get stuck changing lamps. It is what you make of it. I never got "stuck", I left for another position once I got bored.

arccosh · 29-10-2020 10:04pm

listermint wrote: »

Why would you get a degree apprenticeship in a country that is leaving all mutual qualification recognitions in two months time. That would be a bad idea.

you're assuming the person taking it wants to use a degree elsewhere.

lots of international companies with plenty of room to move internationally... even with Brexit..

it won't be a case either that UK qualifications become defunkt over night.... might be a bit more leg work getting stuff recognised if you do come back to Ireland, but it won't be worthless.... if that's the case you're going to have a lot of trouble in boarder areas...

Washington Accord supersedes a lot of treaties also... which makes the Brexit argument null and void for technicians and engineers.

Carter D · 31-10-2020 12:29pm

Has anyone ever lied about there age on there CV.
Few people have said to me you dont have to put your age in your CV

Also do you have to wear mask on the job now as I would say that would be hard while doing a trade compared to sitting in and office surrounded by people.

Jim2007 · 31-10-2020 12:59pm

Carter D wrote: »

Has anyone ever lied about there age on there CV.
Few people have said to me you dont have to put your age in your CV

Also do you have to wear mask on the job now as I would say that would be hard while doing a trade compared to sitting in and office surrounded by people.

Of course some people lie about their age and more don’t bother putting on the resume. But it is not exactly rocket science to make an educated guess based on date of qualifications and experience.

I would leave it of rather than lie as you will eventually have to supply it for company pension etc.

I don’t know about the masks. The guys I had working on my house last week seem to only put them on in situations where they were likely to come into contact with the family.

This is it · 31-10-2020 1:26pm

Carter D wrote: »

Has anyone ever lied about there age on there CV.
Few people have said to me you dont have to put your age in your CV

Also do you have to wear mask on the job now as I would say that would be hard while doing a trade compared to sitting in and office surrounded by people.

Why would you lie about your age?

Man with broke phone · 31-10-2020 1:46pm

Carter D wrote: »

Has anyone ever lied about there age on there CV.
Few people have said to me you dont have to put your age in your CV

Also do you have to wear mask on the job now as I would say that would be hard while doing a trade compared to sitting in and office surrounded by people.

It would probably most of your employment rights null and void though. Lying on record. If I was an evil boss Id say nothing until I needed to let you go and use it as the reason.

Carter D · 02-11-2020 7:30pm

Man with broke phone wrote: »

It would probably most of your employment rights null and void though. Lying on record. If I was an evil boss Id say nothing until I needed to let you go and use it as the reason.

Yeah true dont no why I was thinking it . Just thought if I haven't heard anything back I could change age to see if it helps get me an interview then tell them my age on it was a mistake.

Do they prefer to take on apprentices who are just put of school or in there early 20s I wouldn't say late 20s is to old for an apprenticeship wage doesn't change because of my age

Hellrazer · 03-11-2020 1:04am

Carter D wrote: »

Do they prefer to take on apprentices who are just put of school or in there early 20s I wouldn't say late 20s is to old for an apprenticeship wage doesn't change because of my age

Ive taken on at least 30 apprentices over the last 25 years.
Truthfully...the older ones(over 25) always work out better in the end.

Last year I went through 5 young lads to get one 1st year apprentice.The young lads these days just don't want to work for a few quid above the dole. They don't seem to understand long term prospects.

salmocab · 03-11-2020 8:31am

Hellrazer wrote: »

Ive taken on at least 30 apprentices over the last 25 years.
Truthfully...the older ones(over 25) always work out better in the end.

Last year I went through 5 young lads to get one 1st year apprentice.The young lads these days just don't want to work for a few quid above the dole. They don't seem to understand long term prospects.

I’ve found in general that older lads are better apprentices. I’ve had some great young fellas in fairness but the slightly older lads tended to have that extra bit of cop on.

03-11-2020 9:15am

Hellrazer wrote: »

...

Last year I went through 5 young lads to get one 1st year apprentice.The young lads these days just don't want to work for a few quid above the dole. They don't seem to understand long term prospects.

What wages do ye offer fully qualified folk?

Carter D · 04-11-2020 12:27pm

Hi I know attitude is important especially for the first year as the pay is low and have to think in the long run.

Does pay only go up once you finish a year or each phase ?
As I have heard you could be in phase 1 for a year before going to phase 2.

Going by rates online if over 20 years of age you get €9.26 which is
€370 a week, which is pretty good for a first year apprentice

Then I seen these rates aswell
Phase 2 €274.95
Phase 4 €412.23
Phase 6 €595.53
4th Year €733.20

So what rate is it ?

Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

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