MGTOW = “men going their own way”

generalisations about men and women are worthless in this context

negative generalisations about the opposite sex because you arent having the results youd like are worthless and ugly

negative generalisations about the members of your own gender who are having results in this sphere that you arent are worthless, ugly and transparent

very few fellas are of the calibre of "instantly attractive" where they dont need to tick other boxes to enjoy decent long term relationships

conversely, very few fellas are so hideously ugly that other factors - well within their control- couldnt come into play that see them happy within a relationship

everyone seems to have their own observations, and without being able to verify people's actual happiness/success in love its hard to know what value to attach to opinions in a thread like this, but aside from the above two things being true as far as i can see, id add a third crucial one:

most fellas in relationships are punching above their weight in terms of attractiveness.

if there is a gender that is generally shallow about physical attraction, its us.

after that, there's little enough on the various complaints against women you see in the MGTOW philosophy that couldnt go under one of two headings, imo

"unrealistic standards (that one chick youve been fixating on? probably best broaden your search, and maybe check yr criteria)"

and

"things about yourself you could work on (but probably dont)"

idk tho. any time you see a person look at the world and say "hmm that's the problem here, not me" you are probably not going to change any minds.

when you see it as a philosophy, and others in the thread happy to encourage it, personally i think its a very toxic thing.

silverharp wrote: »

Men have 4 general ways to be attractive to women , appearance, confidence, wealth and status and except at the extreme end there isnt one of those factors a man cant improve. If an 18 year old guy thinks mgtow is for him, im just going to suggest he is a lazy entitled bastad. A bit of red pilling is useful to understand he equation of life but it should be a motivation to help stack the deck in your particular favor not to give up

Location, and the population nearby is important too. Look, I grew up in a mid-sized town in the Midlands. Even having a relatively large population for a town, the numbers of girls my age or within the socially acceptable ages for dating were very limited, considering we typically have close to equal numbers of males/females in this country. If choice is limited, and those women are set against you, (for whatever reasons), or you don't find them attractive (which I didn't), it's easy to convince yourself that something is very wrong. I think it's probably worse now with the rise of social media, because you see all the beauty in the world, but find none of it available in your hometown.

And when you're young (and older too), it's very easy to believe that your hometown and surrounding county is the whole world.

I find one of the best ways for people to get away with the MGTOW, or similar crap, is to move to somewhere with a larger population. A larger population offers greater diversity and a greater chance of encountering someone who finds you attractive (especially now that migration is more common, and you're not totally reliant on Irish women, and Irish considerations about dating).

In any case, boys/men can change all of the four factors listed above, and still be unsuccessful, if they're limiting themselves to a relatively small population pool.

silverharp wrote: »

Im sure it can be tricky but given that its mostly an American thing and its based on some of the dynamics is US and Canadian cities , for instance I remember coming across something about dating in NY which attracts a lot of young women and on the surface it looks like they have the chance to date plenty of successful men , but there arent as many single men as they think so they end up losing the game of stools they are not aware they are playing , meanwhile the more average guys are getting blanked.

You're focusing on the cities. The US has a wide range of small-medium sized towns with populations under 10-20k people. A lot of people head to the cities for a while, find out it didn't make them happy, and return to the small towns. MGTOW is far more than a city phenomenon.

I spent some time in NY working as a consultant, and as part of networking, I was brought to the bars, many of whom had the reputation as single bars. Pickup joints. And yes, there was a lot of sex floating around, but it was sex with a price tag, since the women typically were looking for someone earning a decent salary. Not so much that they wanted the money themselves, but it was connected with status.. and peer reputation.

If you ever spend more than a few weeks going to a singles bar, you quickly realise that the core population are regulars, with a few strays brought in as fresh blood. It was a lot of fun when I used to take dating seriously.. but it's an incredibly superficial environment.

I dont know how to solve the issue collectively but on an individual level there are always ways to make improvements or find out how and where to meet the more reasonable type of women who have normal expectations.

Not always. I was bitter for a very long time over my experiences with dating in Ireland. I have a shaking disorder which can't be "managed", and I received all manner of nastiness from women who thought I was nervous or shy, or simply broken. Women can be very cruel.. either intentionally or unintentionally. It doesn't matter though. I've met many guys over the years (I did a lot of speed seduction work at one time), who were treated horribly by women, and had the emotional scars. It stays with a guy, and takes a lot of work to remove. I think a lot of guys are far too dismissive of the impact that negative experiences while growing up, and again, when entering adult dating, can have.

I'm, now, very good with women. I've been single most of my life, and I've studied interpersonal communication, along with psychology. Not the PUA BS but the useful stuff that really helps to understand, appreciate, and work with women. And I've had a lot of success in dating or just for sex. I'm single because I don't really want a serious relationship, nor do I want marriage. But the scars that I received as a teen... they're still there. My distrust of women I meet on any dating circuit are connected to those scars. So... while I agree that guys can change a lot about themselves, which can help them to succeed... at the same time, I think many here are far too flippant about the difficulties involved.

As for how to change it collectively, it's like any habit. Break the cycle, by changing your environment completely. If guys are seriously wanting to change their lives and meet women, then they need to get away from the culture they were brought up in. The negative associations they have in their culture connected with the way, women of that culture behave, encourages the cycle to continue. Get some positive experiences away, and then return later, with a vastly different perspective. I know this works, because I did it, and I've had a wide variety of friends/students who have done the same.

I remember last year getting the train to work (in Dublin) so you would tend to see the same people get on each day. There must be a bunch of IT type companies in the same place because a lot of the guys had a similar vibe, dressed like they were in college, having constant inane conversations about netflix and other nerdy stuff :pac: . Me looking on was thinking yeah I bet they arent dating a lot but they aint helping themselves either. It just didnt sound like they had social lives. At their age their feet shouldnt be touching the floor

Times change. I know a variety of guys in IT who would traditionally have been called absolute geeks, and yet, they're all in relatively stable relationships with quite good looking women. Being a nerd or geek is attractive to some women. The internet changed a lot of the way that some women perceive men, especially those women who want a guy who is unlikely to cheat on her. Besides which, these guys also tend to get paid well, and be employable throughout their lives.

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

Just saw the girl I'm in love with holding hands with another guy. That's it, **** it. I seriously can't do this **** anymore. All this heartache and disappointment.

I give up.

You might want to grow up first, and put all the romantic movies away.

Love? You were "in love" with someone who wasn't already your partner? How did you develop this love?

Unrealistic expectations. Blame society for MTGOW because posters like the above want to equate love with attraction.

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

What does that even mean?

Never mind. It doesn't matter.

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

**** it no more mr nice guy. I'm gonna be a cruel heartless bastard and treat women like utter **** because the asshole types always get the girl

This game is rigged boys

Okay. Tell me something. What kind of relationship did you have with the girl?

You were friends, and you shared your feelings with her? Did anything physical ever happen with her? Did you ask her out, show your interest in her, or do anything to peak her interest in you?

Where is this love supposed to have evolved from? As being her friend? Purely physical attraction?

You get, what you put in. If you behave as a friend, most times all you'll get is friendship back.

As for being a cruel heartless bastard, it's overrated, although i suppose it's worth doing a few times in your life, because it'll teach you a lot about yourself. All the same, two things will likely happen. You'll end up with fragile, clingy, damaged women.. or you'll leave damaged women behind you. Neither is healthy, and frankly, should be avoided.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Save your money, lift weights, don't take any sh*t, don't rely on the state, treat everybody you meet with suspicion unless they prove otherwise. And even then, realise that any relationship that you form with anyone is probably going to be transactional unless you are very fortunate.

All relationships are transactional to one extent or another. There's always a give and take involved. Sometimes the exchange is obvious, and others less so.

I think it's just easier to see it this way because we're single in our 40s. I find people in loving relationships trick themselves into believing that there's nothing being transacted, but the truth is that trust is being exchanged, along with security or any number of other reasons to stay together.

Still, none of that is a negative. If anything, recognising the transactional aspect of relationships is a positive because you can judge what's needed to create or maintain the relationship.

tylercheribini wrote: »

There are journalists linking MGTOW with Trump and white supremacy, never witnessed it meself, what I take from it is lads just not arsed getting married, which I felt like anyway before I even knew what MGTOW was.

As with any large movement, it attracts all sorts. Journalists want to find the sticky dramatic angles to report on. There's nothing interesting about a group of guys supporting each other... but linking them to extreme woman haters? That's going to sell well.

I know a variety of people who describe themselves as part of MTGOW. Most are normal guys who have decided to simplify their lives, but reducing the impact that women can influence... There's no hatred, anger, or bitterness. Whereas I am a moderator on a number of male support groups, and you'll often see such bitterness/hate, and yet, these guys wouldn't ever consider themselves as MTGOW.

It's like feminists. Some are complete nutters, many as ignorant asshats, some pursue agendas of their own, and many others have very pure/positive intentions... MTGOW is similar. People and journalists (especially Americans) feel the need to simplify everything, removing the shades of complexity... trying to find the drama.

iptba wrote: »

I think a lot of men can get frustrated by the rules of the transaction: they can feel they are sticking to their side of the bargain but still aren’t benefiting e.g. with sex. So it’s different to many simpler transactions.

I think the problem is the pedestal that many boys/men put women on. They consider the woman to have greater value than they would place on themselves, not that they ever consider their own value, but place an inordinate amount of importance on the women in their sight. It could be sex, beauty, a meeting of minds, whatever, but even as a gender, women tend to placed on a special kind of pedestal, with high expectations included, but fail to meet those expectations.... because they're still human and flawed.

The rules are what you make of them. It's really that simple. However, many guys will accept perceived common rules coming from society, as if they need to follow them religiously... In most areas of society where men are involved, they negotiate, argue, push for their own needs to be covered. It's one of the main drivers behind male success vs female success in society/work. Men, typically, pursue their professional aims with greater determination, making up the rules that suit them best.

However, when it comes to women, they no longer do that. Instead, they accept the boundaries that women set, and then get frustrated when women move those boundaries or simply pick someone else. If you're honest with yourself, virtually all of your successful relationships happened because you didn't accept her frame about the relationship, instead, you put your own rules/objectives into play.

This is not about being a bastard, or an evil prick. It's about being a man. Which is why we see so many attacks on being a man by feminists, because men won't accept the BS rules that they put into play. Whereas, a needy guy will. Thus passing all power/influence over to the female gender. So... be a man. Take control over your life. Don't get bitter because in all likelihood, the mistakes happened because you stopped guiding the relationship... you allowed the woman to take control somewhere along the way. And once that happens, she will, invariably lose respect for you, and try to find someone else who will challenge her.