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MGTOW = “men going their own way”

iptba

I know there is already a thread on men's rights, but really MGTOW is something quite specific and elsewhere on the Internet, discussions and discussion forums are very often separate.

Also, women can be interested in men's rights, just as men can be interested in women's rights and feminism, but MGTOW is pretty much just for men.

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worded

nthclare wrote: »

It's funny how women often ditch white knights and nice guys and go for bastard's like myself.

Female friends of mine who split up with their men, went for more alpha guys the next time and prefer a manly man who's independent,has some hobbies and isn't following her around like a pleb.

Myself and my girlfriend see each other now and again, and have plenty of space because we prefer that.

Year's ago men would go to war or go hunting and gathering, fishing etc for day's on end and the women would be at home and enjoy their friends and have great banter and craic.
Any man who'd stay at home would be either ill disabled or a priest or law man.

This probably declined 300 year's ago + gradually.

In fairness 300 year's isn't a long time in terms of evolution.

There is nothing funny about this particularly for the first partner.

I read studies about this years ago and will post links if I can find them.

A lot of women choose partner number #1 to be a good provider, good career, someone who will get the nest together and provide the first one or two kids. He could have a more squarish head I don’t know why, a metro sexual perhaps.

So with the home set up she gets the wandering eye and now choose some one with tattoos, rough and probably more masculine, a motor biker, a bad boy. He can run faster and jump higher than partner #1 and so will his kids. Earning power isn’t important as she has the house. She is looking for different seed. It’s good for evolution.

If tried with reverse partners .... the kids may have ended up homeless and she may never met the nest builder. Wiser to get the nest built first with the safe bet partner #1

She may not have set out with the ex convict in mind as partner #2, it wasn’t a master plan but now she has options ....

[Deleted User]

generalisations about men and women are worthless in this context

negative generalisations about the opposite sex because you arent having the results youd like are worthless and ugly

negative generalisations about the members of your own gender who are having results in this sphere that you arent are worthless, ugly and transparent

very few fellas are of the calibre of "instantly attractive" where they dont need to tick other boxes to enjoy decent long term relationships

conversely, very few fellas are so hideously ugly that other factors - well within their control- couldnt come into play that see them happy within a relationship

everyone seems to have their own observations, and without being able to verify people's actual happiness/success in love its hard to know what value to attach to opinions in a thread like this, but aside from the above two things being true as far as i can see, id add a third crucial one:

most fellas in relationships are punching above their weight in terms of attractiveness.

if there is a gender that is generally shallow about physical attraction, its us.

after that, there's little enough on the various complaints against women you see in the MGTOW philosophy that couldnt go under one of two headings, imo

"unrealistic standards (that one chick youve been fixating on? probably best broaden your search, and maybe check yr criteria)"

and

"things about yourself you could work on (but probably dont)"

idk tho. any time you see a person look at the world and say "hmm that's the problem here, not me" you are probably not going to change any minds.

when you see it as a philosophy, and others in the thread happy to encourage it, personally i think its a very toxic thing.

silverharp

Men have 4 general ways to be attractive to women , appearance, confidence, wealth and status and except at the extreme end there isnt one of those factors a man cant improve. If an 18 year old guy thinks mgtow is for him, im just going to suggest he is a lazy entitled bastad. A bit of red pilling is useful to understand he equation of life but it should be a motivation to help stack the deck in your particular favor not to give up

tylercheribini

Deleted User wrote: »

if there is a gender that is generally shallow about physical attraction, its us.

Hole and a heartbeat(optional)you mean?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

id add a third crucial one:

most fellas in relationships are punching above their weight in terms of attractiveness.

I was with you until you wrote this. The problem is that you're reinforcing the social conditioning that we've all been subjected to. The perception of what is commonly considered attractive, and also that women, throughout history, have no impact on the drive of that social conditioning.

What is considered attractive is conditioning, as much as it is biology. There are the magazines, TV shows, movies, etc all of which promote certain aspects of women to show their appearance as being more important than it actually is. Which places an inordinate amount of importance on physical appearance. A lot of that comes from male biological imperatives, but there's also the social conditioning, which promotes something that women can sell... ie. their appearance.. suggesting that a male's appearance is somehow less than a woman's.

In a relationship, nobody is punching above their weight, because a relationship usually requires far more than just physical attraction, in order to continue successfully. Personality comes into play, and there both genders should be considered equal...

if there is a gender that is generally shallow about physical attraction, its us.

I disagree. All you have to do is listen to any group of women who are commenting on the appearance of another woman outside of that group. Or the appearance/behavior of a celeb that they have some interest in. Instagram, and other social media apps, are drowning in nasty comments by women, in describing the appearance of other women, and that of men.

While men are generally very committed to physical appearance as a way of measuring attractiveness, and that's been acknowledged throughout history, social conditioning has suggested that women do not behave the same way. And yet, they do. It's just that their areas to critic are different, but even there, things are changing with women becoming far more outspoken in judging the physical appearance of a man.

I'd say that both genders can be equally superficial in judging others based solely on their physical appearance... the difference is that men generally don't critic the appearance of other men. Women do it to both genders.

after that, there's little enough on the various complaints against women you see in the MGTOW philosophy that couldnt go under one of two headings, imo

"unrealistic standards (that one chick youve been fixating on? probably best broaden your search, and maybe check yr criteria)"

and

"things about yourself you could work on (but probably dont)"

idk tho. any time you see a person look at the world and say "hmm that's the problem here, not me" you are probably not going to change any minds.

when you see it as a philosophy, and others in the thread happy to encourage it, personally i think its a very toxic thing.

And I'd agree, in part, although, again, I think you're being rather selective here. Women have their own culture based around beauty, and the importance of physical appearance, just as many have demands that men meet certain financial markers before being deemed "worthy".

I find it far more toxic to give women a free pass on this. I agree with you about the males, and what they're saying. I don't like this victim culture that has emerged over the last few decades, with so many people looking to escape their own responsibility for how their lives have turned out... but it's important to apply such judgments equally.

The problem with the women's lib movement was that it sought to bring about equality, while retaining all of the past protections and benefits that previously existed. So we still have all the past mechanisms that made women so valuable in society, which promotes women to have a greater importance in society than men..

[Deleted User]

silverharp wrote: »

Men have 4 general ways to be attractive to women , appearance, confidence, wealth and status and except at the extreme end there isnt one of those factors a man cant improve. If an 18 year old guy thinks mgtow is for him, im just going to suggest he is a lazy entitled bastad. A bit of red pilling is useful to understand he equation of life but it should be a motivation to help stack the deck in your particular favor not to give up

Location, and the population nearby is important too. Look, I grew up in a mid-sized town in the Midlands. Even having a relatively large population for a town, the numbers of girls my age or within the socially acceptable ages for dating were very limited, considering we typically have close to equal numbers of males/females in this country. If choice is limited, and those women are set against you, (for whatever reasons), or you don't find them attractive (which I didn't), it's easy to convince yourself that something is very wrong. I think it's probably worse now with the rise of social media, because you see all the beauty in the world, but find none of it available in your hometown.

And when you're young (and older too), it's very easy to believe that your hometown and surrounding county is the whole world.

I find one of the best ways for people to get away with the MGTOW, or similar crap, is to move to somewhere with a larger population. A larger population offers greater diversity and a greater chance of encountering someone who finds you attractive (especially now that migration is more common, and you're not totally reliant on Irish women, and Irish considerations about dating).

In any case, boys/men can change all of the four factors listed above, and still be unsuccessful, if they're limiting themselves to a relatively small population pool.

silverharp

Deleted User wrote: »

Location, and the population nearby is important too. Look, I grew up in a mid-sized town in the Midlands. Even having a relatively large population for a town, the numbers of girls my age or within the socially acceptable ages for dating were very limited, considering we typically have close to equal numbers of males/females in this country. If choice is limited, and those women are set against you, (for whatever reasons), or you don't find them attractive (which I didn't), it's easy to convince yourself that something is very wrong. I think it's probably worse now with the rise of social media, because you see all the beauty in the world, but find none of it available in your hometown.

And when you're young (and older too), it's very easy to believe that your hometown and surrounding county is the whole world.

I find one of the best ways for people to get away with the MGTOW, or similar crap, is to move to somewhere with a larger population. A larger population offers greater diversity and a greater chance of encountering someone who finds you attractive (especially now that migration is more common, and you're not totally reliant on Irish women, and Irish considerations about dating).

In any case, boys/men can change all of the four factors listed above, and still be unsuccessful, if they're limiting themselves to a relatively small population pool.

Im sure it can be tricky but given that its mostly an American thing and its based on some of the dynamics is US and Canadian cities , for instance I remember coming across something about dating in NY which attracts a lot of young women and on the surface it looks like they have the chance to date plenty of successful men , but there arent as many single men as they think so they end up losing the game of stools they are not aware they are playing , meanwhile the more average guys are getting blanked.
I dont know how to solve the issue collectively but on an individual level there are always ways to make improvements or find out how and where to meet the more reasonable type of women who have normal expectations.

I remember last year getting the train to work (in Dublin) so you would tend to see the same people get on each day. There must be a bunch of IT type companies in the same place because a lot of the guys had a similar vibe, dressed like they were in college, having constant inane conversations about netflix and other nerdy stuff :pac: . Me looking on was thinking yeah I bet they arent dating a lot but they aint helping themselves either. It just didnt sound like they had social lives. At their age their feet shouldnt be touching the floor

[Deleted User]

silverharp wrote: »

Im sure it can be tricky but given that its mostly an American thing and its based on some of the dynamics is US and Canadian cities , for instance I remember coming across something about dating in NY which attracts a lot of young women and on the surface it looks like they have the chance to date plenty of successful men , but there arent as many single men as they think so they end up losing the game of stools they are not aware they are playing , meanwhile the more average guys are getting blanked.

You're focusing on the cities. The US has a wide range of small-medium sized towns with populations under 10-20k people. A lot of people head to the cities for a while, find out it didn't make them happy, and return to the small towns. MGTOW is far more than a city phenomenon.

I spent some time in NY working as a consultant, and as part of networking, I was brought to the bars, many of whom had the reputation as single bars. Pickup joints. And yes, there was a lot of sex floating around, but it was sex with a price tag, since the women typically were looking for someone earning a decent salary. Not so much that they wanted the money themselves, but it was connected with status.. and peer reputation.

If you ever spend more than a few weeks going to a singles bar, you quickly realise that the core population are regulars, with a few strays brought in as fresh blood. It was a lot of fun when I used to take dating seriously.. but it's an incredibly superficial environment.

I dont know how to solve the issue collectively but on an individual level there are always ways to make improvements or find out how and where to meet the more reasonable type of women who have normal expectations.

Not always. I was bitter for a very long time over my experiences with dating in Ireland. I have a shaking disorder which can't be "managed", and I received all manner of nastiness from women who thought I was nervous or shy, or simply broken. Women can be very cruel.. either intentionally or unintentionally. It doesn't matter though. I've met many guys over the years (I did a lot of speed seduction work at one time), who were treated horribly by women, and had the emotional scars. It stays with a guy, and takes a lot of work to remove. I think a lot of guys are far too dismissive of the impact that negative experiences while growing up, and again, when entering adult dating, can have.

I'm, now, very good with women. I've been single most of my life, and I've studied interpersonal communication, along with psychology. Not the PUA BS but the useful stuff that really helps to understand, appreciate, and work with women. And I've had a lot of success in dating or just for sex. I'm single because I don't really want a serious relationship, nor do I want marriage. But the scars that I received as a teen... they're still there. My distrust of women I meet on any dating circuit are connected to those scars. So... while I agree that guys can change a lot about themselves, which can help them to succeed... at the same time, I think many here are far too flippant about the difficulties involved.

As for how to change it collectively, it's like any habit. Break the cycle, by changing your environment completely. If guys are seriously wanting to change their lives and meet women, then they need to get away from the culture they were brought up in. The negative associations they have in their culture connected with the way, women of that culture behave, encourages the cycle to continue. Get some positive experiences away, and then return later, with a vastly different perspective. I know this works, because I did it, and I've had a wide variety of friends/students who have done the same.

I remember last year getting the train to work (in Dublin) so you would tend to see the same people get on each day. There must be a bunch of IT type companies in the same place because a lot of the guys had a similar vibe, dressed like they were in college, having constant inane conversations about netflix and other nerdy stuff :pac: . Me looking on was thinking yeah I bet they arent dating a lot but they aint helping themselves either. It just didnt sound like they had social lives. At their age their feet shouldnt be touching the floor

Times change. I know a variety of guys in IT who would traditionally have been called absolute geeks, and yet, they're all in relatively stable relationships with quite good looking women. Being a nerd or geek is attractive to some women. The internet changed a lot of the way that some women perceive men, especially those women who want a guy who is unlikely to cheat on her. Besides which, these guys also tend to get paid well, and be employable throughout their lives.

Jimmy Twotimes

Just saw the girl I'm in love with holding hands with another guy. That's it, **** it. I seriously can't do this **** anymore. All this heartache and disappointment.

I give up.

[Deleted User]

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

Just saw the girl I'm in love with holding hands with another guy. That's it, **** it. I seriously can't do this **** anymore. All this heartache and disappointment.

I give up.

You might want to grow up first, and put all the romantic movies away.

Love? You were "in love" with someone who wasn't already your partner? How did you develop this love?

Jimmy Twotimes

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You might want to grow up first, and put all the romantic movies away.

Love? You were "in love" with someone who wasn't already your partner? How did you develop this love?

Eh, I found her attractive and enjoyed her company? You don't start going out with someone and then decide 'oh yeah I love her'.

Anyway fuk it.

eviltwin

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

Eh, I found her attractive and enjoyed her company? You don't start going out with someone and then decide 'oh yeah I love her'.

Anyway fuk it.

Yeah you do

Anyway what you describe happens to most of us. You accept it with maturity and you move on.

Jimmy Twotimes

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah you do

Anyway what you describe happens to most of us. You accept it with maturity and you move on.

Oh I'm ready to accept it alright

[Deleted User]

Unrealistic expectations. Blame society for MTGOW because posters like the above want to equate love with attraction.

Jimmy Twotimes

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unrealistic expectations. Blame society for MTGOW because posters like the above want to equate love with attraction.

What does that even mean?

[Deleted User]

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

What does that even mean?

Never mind. It doesn't matter.

iptba

Are kids for me? New podcast hears from women choosing a child-free life
Author Emilie Pine and other women speak about their decision not to have children in a new podcast. Host Margaret O’Connor explains why she created ‘Are Kids For Me?’

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/relationships/arid-40051217.html

I imagine there would be quite a number of men who would prefer not have kids.

Jimmy Twotimes

**** it no more mr nice guy. I'm gonna be a cruel heartless bastard and treat women like utter **** because the asshole types always get the girl

This game is rigged boys

IAMAMORON

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

**** it no more mr nice guy. I'm gonna be a cruel heartless bastard and treat women like utter **** because the asshole types always get the girl

This game is rigged boys

This only works under 2 criteria.

1) You are attractive
2) You are loaded.

Don't make the chronic mistake of pretending to be the hard lad, or even worse, deliberately being rude or nasty to women in an attempt to gain attention.

The golden rule is that women will tolerate attractive or rich men who are rude, uncouth or treat them like chrap. It does not really bother them as long as their children are safe and that they are having a comfortable sex life and a comfortable living.

Any attempt by losers or ugly men to try any chrap on will result in a dumping. No matter how far up or down the ladder you are on.

eviltwin

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

**** it no more mr nice guy. I'm gonna be a cruel heartless bastard and treat women like utter **** because the asshole types always get the girl

This game is rigged boys

All because some girl you fancy doesn't like you back?

Grow up.

Jimmy Twotimes

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This only works under 2 criteria.

1) You are attractive
2) You are loaded.

Don't make the chronic mistake of pretending to be the hard lad, or even worse, deliberately being rude or nasty to women in an attempt to gain attention.

The golden rule is that women will tolerate attractive or rich men who are rude, uncouth or treat them like chrap. It does not really bother them as long as their children are safe and that they are having a comfortable sex life and a comfortable living.

Any attempt by losers or ugly men to try any chrap on will result in a dumping. No matter how far up or down the ladder you are on.

You are right of course. I just feel dead on the inside. I'm never going to open up to a woman again, never give her my heart. Unless it's casual sex, I'm not interested.

Actually feels liberating. I'm going to get wasted and read Charles Bukowski. I believe he's the closest any man has got to understanding the nature of women.

Jimmy Twotimes

eviltwin wrote: »

All because some girl you fancy doesn't like you back?

Grow up.

**** off

I'm just fed up with life and women in general

Sorry shouldn't have said that

My head is just ****ed right now

john123470

Why all this fussin and the chasin. Feminism this, mgtow
that, Lesbian lives matter ..

Who cares ..

Why not invest 10-15 grand on a top shelf,
silicon Japanese made doll ..

Your costs will be minimal after the initial outlay ..

Sling her over the shoulder at wkends and head
to the car wash to hose her out ...
= your social outing

And she speaks 4 languages (Irish, optional)..

I mean with that out of the way, you'd be able
to focus on the stuff that really matters ..

Just sayin ..

Mister Vain

john123470 wrote: »

Why all this fussin and the chasin. Feminism this, mgtow
that, Lesbian lives matter ..

Who cares ..

Why not invest 10-15 grand on a top shelf,
silicon Japanese made doll ..

Your costs will be minimal after the initial outlay ..

Sling her over the shoulder at wkends and head
to the car wash to hose her out ...
= your social outing

And she speaks 4 languages (Irish, optional)..

I mean with that out of the way, you'd be able
to focus on the stuff that really matters ..

Just sayin ..

Fook that. A flesh light would be a much cheaper alternative. Spend the 10 grand on a car.

IAMAMORON

Mister Vain wrote: »

Fook that. A fleshlight would be a much cheaper alternative. Spend the 10 grand on a car.

Most decent birds would run a mile if they thought you were a cheapskate :pac::pac: ......( sorry )

[Deleted User]

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

**** it no more mr nice guy. I'm gonna be a cruel heartless bastard and treat women like utter **** because the asshole types always get the girl

This game is rigged boys

Okay. Tell me something. What kind of relationship did you have with the girl?

You were friends, and you shared your feelings with her? Did anything physical ever happen with her? Did you ask her out, show your interest in her, or do anything to peak her interest in you?

Where is this love supposed to have evolved from? As being her friend? Purely physical attraction?

You get, what you put in. If you behave as a friend, most times all you'll get is friendship back.

As for being a cruel heartless bastard, it's overrated, although i suppose it's worth doing a few times in your life, because it'll teach you a lot about yourself. All the same, two things will likely happen. You'll end up with fragile, clingy, damaged women.. or you'll leave damaged women behind you. Neither is healthy, and frankly, should be avoided.

john123470

Mister Vain wrote: »

Fook that. A flesh light would be a much cheaper alternative. Spend the 10 grand on a car.

Ah man, you gotta treat yourself to the best there is. You deserve better than some liver in a jam jar dildo from Eurogiant or Dealz ..

These floppy silicone babes are as good as it gets. Every nook and cranny (down there) reproduced to perfection

You can buy her a nice little outfit every now and then ..

You'll be leavin work early to be with her

You'll lose weight ..

You'll feel less needy / clingy with women

She can whisper .. you can feel her 'breath' in your ear ..

I get excited just writing this .. so i'll stop for now ..

10 grand, like i say with the optional Irish thrown in - you'd be set for life .. She'll never grow old on you, take sick days, argue back ... an all round decent skin.

And if you have a friend with a floppy woman, ye can get together with the dolls .. flop around ..maybe do a bit of swopping ..

Endless possibilities ..

Mister Vain

john123470 wrote: »

Ah man, you gotta treat yourself to the best there is. You deserve better than some liver in a jam jar dildo from Eurogiant or Dealz ..

These floppy silicone babes are as good as it gets. Every nook and cranny (down there) reproduced to perfection

You can buy her a nice little outfit every now and then ..

You'll be leavin work early to be with her

You'll lose weight ..

You'll feel less needy / clingy with women

She can whisper .. you can feel her 'breath' in your ear ..

I get excited just writing this .. so i'll stop for now ..

10 grand, like i say with the optional Irish thrown in - you'd be set for life .. She'll never grow old on you, take sick days, argue back ... an all round decent skin.

And if you have a friend with a floppy woman, ye can get together with the dolls .. flop around ..maybe do a bit of swopping ..

Endless possibilities ..

hookaay... that's enough internet for today.

[Deleted User]

john123470 wrote: »

She can whisper .. you can feel her 'breath' in your ear ..

I get excited just writing this .. so i'll stop for now ..
.

Nah. it's creepy, and I can't imagine it as being healthy from a psychological perspective. A flesh light, fine. Not my thing but understandable. This doll thing.. ugh.

Personally, I prefer to go without. I can last until I'm with a woman again.

worded

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nah. it's creepy, and I can't imagine it as being healthy from a psychological perspective. A fleshlight, fine. Not my thing but understandable. This doll thing.. ugh.

Personally, I prefer to go without. I can last until I'm with a woman again.

Put Nail varnish on one hand and when it dries put that hand in the freezer for one or two mins. Feels and looks like someone else’s hand then