Course Management

pakman · 01-07-2019 2:14pm

etxp wrote: »

How can you say it was the right call not too go for the shot? You didn't go for it and had a disaster, would you have been much worse if you went for it?

I had a disaster because I did bad course management. I decided to play conservative but didn't think about it all and chose an 8 iron when a wedge would have done.

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Here's the problem with laying up though which you encountered the weekend. It's a harder shot than it looks, firstly people get too casual and don't concentrate as much as a normal shot and secondly, like you after a good drive it kills them to not go for it so they end up being greedy and try to lay up as close to the hazard as possible to eek out every yard, generally the wrong club gets picked and a couple of bad bounces later it's in the drink and then you're cursing yourself for not going for it. Happens us all.

This describes it perfectly. Just wanted to be further up than everyone else after out driving them. stupid stuff

etxp wrote: »

edit - off topic, which driver did you go for?

Fitting had me go from my regular shaft 10.5 Ping G20 to something with stiff shaft and lower loft. I ended up getting a second hand Titleist D3915 and I love it so far. Long drawing shots that are 20-30 further than old club and way lower trajectory. I've only played two rounds with it though.

I was reluctant to go for fitting but it was well worth the money. besides the club change he could see my outside to in swing was gone and pointed out face control was my really issue when I sliced it occasionally. Weak right hand was probably the culprit.

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 3:13pm

Keano wrote: »

That's only one hole though How was the rest of the round?

lets not get into that now but suffice it to say I need to take the positives out of my game at the moment.

GreeBo · 01-07-2019 3:29pm

pakman wrote: »

I had this exact situation in Captains Prize yesterday in Kilcock. Out with a new driver and hit one 290 with strong wind behind on par 5 5th. Had 210 to hole with tree in middle and water on left.

Thinking about course management I layed up but hit it too well and got in trouble. chipped over water into far bunker, two out of the bunker with second going back into the £$%ing water. chip back from where i started and ended with a 10 to end any chances and due to bad course management when I thought I was being conservative. Should have gone wedge wedge but took an 8 after seeing the great drive and wanting to build on it. It was still the right call not to go for the 210 yard shot though.

This kind of thing went on to happen all round with new driver giving me distance I'd never had before. Played a whole different course as a result and didn't know what I was doing. Suddenly hitting half shots rather than full which I am awful at. Some short and some long with no confidence standing over the ball.

If I had been smart I would have stopped and taken 7 iron and wedge instead of hitting a 5 and then trying to finesse it. That way I would have had full shots and been in places I was familiar with on the course.

For me course management is just finding your way around where you have a club in your hand you know you can hit and in places that are safe enough. I've only really started doing it recently and dropped 3.6 shots in past two months almost completely due to it. It also the thing that kills my boards performances the most too as I don't take time to read the course. That and I am cr*p a lot of the time

The thing you did wrong was hitting the driver.
No point in hitting the driver if you are then going to hit a wedge to layup!

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 3:37pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

I'd expect a 12 handicapper to be much more consistent in their shots than someone off 18 though. The correct shot for you may very well have been to go for the green in two especially if you've no shot there.

Now the 18 player my not be able to hit a 4 iron 210 and will have to hit a 5/3 wood. This makes the shot a bit harder. The correct shot for the higher player, especially if they are not confident in the club/distance, is to lay up to 100 and take the bunkers out of play. Up and down from there will give them 4 points or on and two puts will give them 3 points.

If they go for it with the 3 wood then they may catch the bunker and then will be giving themselves a tougher shot to get up and down for their birdie than if they were in the middle of the fairway.

I hit my 4 iron no more than 170. If it was me I'd hit the 100 as my bad shot is to leak the ball to the right (can be a slice but have almost gotten rid of that now). I'm fairly confident of hitting the ball within 10 feet from that distance and would be very confident of not having more than two putts from there.

If there's no trouble to the left of the green I may hit the 3 wood up there depending on pin position and how much green I have to work with when chipping.

firstly I had a shot, to be honest I think that is irrelevant but that's another discussion. my point really was though that going for it I could have ended up in a bunker. but if I had of laid up, I still could have found a bunker with my third shot. laying up is not always all its made out to be. sure if you don't have the range to make the distance, then you just have to lay up, but that's a different scenario.

its all well saying the 18 handicapper should lay up to 100 yards and chip on make 2 putts...…. but they are an 18 handicapper, they probably don't have the game to always get the 100 yard shot to finish on the green and always make the 2 putts. an 18 handicapper could very easily take 5+ shots to get down from that range. hell knows I've done it often enough

no risk, no reward, if you want to score well, you just have to take some shots on sometimes.

oh yea and the podcast is called "no laying up"

TitianGerm · 01-07-2019 3:42pm

Seve OB wrote: »

firstly I had a shot, to be honest I think that is irrelevant but that's another discussion. my point really was though that going for it I could have ended up in a bunker. but if I had of laid up, I still could have found a bunker with my third shot. laying up is not always all its made out to be. sure if you don't have the range to make the distance, then you just have to lay up, but that's a different scenario.

its all well saying the 18 handicapper should lay up to 100 yards and chip on make 2 putts...…. but they are an 18 handicapper, they probably don't have the game to always get the 100 yard shot to finish on the green and always make the 2 putts. an 18 handicapper could very easily take 5+ shots to get down from that range. hell knows I've done it often enough

no risk, no reward, if you want to score well, you just have to take some shots on sometimes.

oh yea and the podcast is called "no laying up"

I'd bet the vast majority of high handicappers would have more trouble out of the bunker than from the fairway at 100 yards.

I agree on taking shots on. But there's a time and place for that, i.e holes that you are confident on.

DuckSlice · 01-07-2019 3:53pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

I'd bet the vast majority of high handicappers would have more trouble out of the bunker than from the fairway at 100 yards.

I agree on taking shots on. But there's a time and place for that, i.e holes that you are confident on.

but if they never go in the bunkers they wont get better at playing out of them :eek:

pakman · 01-07-2019 4:04pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The thing you did wrong was hitting the driver.
No point in hitting the driver if you are then going to hit a wedge to layup!

True. Before this weekend though I was driver, 7 iron, and wedge on that hole. The wind and new driver just took 50 yards off the hole for me. The whole round was that way.

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 4:06pm

just before anyone thinks that I advocate going for everything all the time and don't believe in course management...…..

playing medal on Saturday I had two course management decisions to make.

first one I knew what I was doing was in theory wrong but I didn't care. my score was already in tatters. 18th hole found myself just left of fairway in trees, not thick ones or anything, I did have a view through them to the green but they were in my way enough that I was going to have to execute the shot near perfectly. I needed a birdie to make the buffer so it was worth taking the shot on as par was probably not going to be enough, and playing a conservative chip back to the fairway was not going to guarantee me par anyway. I was punching 3 iron to keep it low, caught a branch on my back swing (I knew it was there and it could affect my swing) and although my ball strike was ok, it did enough to throw me offline by about a foot and I hit a tree square on and ball kicked left into cabbage.

Now course management on any other day with a half decent score going (or indeed in the first few holes) I would have been knocking it back to the fairway and looking for 5. as it was, I think I made the correct course management decision for the situation I faced.

the second scenario was where the ball ended up in the cabbage. I foolishly tried to hit a wedge back to the fairway, but I was just to quick in deciding on the shot to play. As soon as I struck it I realised I should have gone back to previous position and replayed under penalty. it took me 3 shots to get out of the cabbage and to be honest I was lucky it was only 3. No matter what score I had going, the only clever move here was to take penalty drop. This is new rough, never seen before, an area that used to be a good miss and have an approach to the green from regular rough. I think this caused me not to actually think about the shot first because I'm normally quite good at taking a drop when in an unplayable lie position.

BoardsMember · 01-07-2019 4:18pm

Last time I played Druids Glen, the 13th hole kind of sums it up for me.

I went for a big power fade off the tee, it just stayed in play and chased up towards end of fairway. Hit a power fade 4 iron that was over water most of the way, drifted off the water and towards the flag at the end, landed softly, finishing pin high 20 feet. I sank the putt for a birdie.

Every other time I have played that hole I have played it the same way. I have probably scored on it maybe two other times out of 6 or 7 times playing it. So awful course management but one serious highlight. Some people just want to go for the 1 in 20 shots I suppose. It's not necessarily ignorant, it can be an active choice to go for the champagne shot.

That said, some of the stuff higher handicappers go for, the "completely and utterly impossible even from a pro" type shots are harder to explain. They can be amsuing though.

It's really what you want out of the game. I'll always remember my birdie. But I'll never be as low a handicap as I should be. My handicap record used to show 2 or 3 low rounds per year max, with the rest in the 20 point region. My way of playing was hampering marginal gains, or more consistent scoring. Maybe that is why I gave the game up....

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 4:33pm

BoardsMember wrote: »

Last time I played Druids Glen, the 13th hole kind of sums it up for me.

I went for a big power fade off the tee, it just stayed in play and chased up towards end of fairway. Hit a power fade 4 iron that was over water most of the way, drifted off the water and towards the flag at the end, landed softly, finishing pin high 20 feet. I sank the putt for a birdie.

Every other time I have played that hole I have played it the same way. I have probably scored on it maybe two other times out of 6 or 7 times playing it. So awful course management but one serious highlight. Some people just want to go for the 1 in 20 shots I suppose. It's not necessarily ignorant, it can be an active choice to go for the champagne shot.

That said, some of the stuff higher handicappers go for, the "completely and utterly impossible even from a pro" type shots are harder to explain. They can be amsuing though.

It's really what you want out of the game. I'll always remember my birdie. But I'll never be as low a handicap as I should be. My handicap record used to show 2 or 3 low rounds per year max, with the rest in the 20 point region. My way of playing was hampering marginal gains, or more consistent scoring. Maybe that is why I gave the game up....

so for the 13th in Druids if you are taking on the water and it's a 1 in 20 shot to make the green, good course management will look at where the miss is. IE. make sure you aim to the right hand side of the green, plenty of room short along that line and you may end up half way up the hill, but ball should be in play still. noting wrong with that course management IMO.

TitianGerm · 01-07-2019 4:38pm

etxp wrote: »

but if they never go in the bunkers they wont get better at playing out of them :eek:

I don't like sand so I stay out of them :pac:

Could declare it unplayable and take a penalty drop

megabomberman · 01-07-2019 4:58pm

Seve OB wrote: »

laying up is not always all its made out to be. sure if you don't have the range to make the distance, then you just have to lay up, but that's a different scenario

I think this is a good point, for us high handicappers if a green isn't surrounded by water or white stakes I think a dig of the 3 wood off the deck can be the best option.

At least in my case where there is absolutely no guarantee I won't hit two reckless mid/short irons after taking the 'sensible' option anyway.

mike12 · 01-07-2019 6:44pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

I'd expect a 12 handicapper to be much more consistent in their shots than someone off 18 though. The correct shot for you may very well have been to go for the green in two especially if you've no shot there.

Now the 18 player my not be able to hit a 4 iron 210 and will have to hit a 5/3 wood. This makes the shot a bit harder. The correct shot for the higher player, especially if they are not confident in the club/distance, is to lay up to 100 and take the bunkers out of play. Up and down from there will give them 4 points or on and two puts will give them 3 points.

If they go for it with the 3 wood then they may catch the bunker and then will be giving themselves a tougher shot to get up and down for their birdie than if they were in the middle of the fairway.

I hit my 4 iron no more than 170. If it was me I'd hit the 100 as my bad shot is to leak the ball to the right (can be a slice but have almost gotten rid of that now). I'm fairly confident of hitting the ball within 10 feet from that distance and would be very confident of not having more than two putts from there.

If there's no trouble to the left of the green I may hit the 3 wood up there depending on pin position and how much green I have to work with when chipping.

If u can hit it to 10 foot from a 100 yards u are better than most pga tour pros.
Most 18 handicap golfers are luck to hit the green from 100 yards

DuckSlice · 01-07-2019 6:44pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

I don't like sand so I stay out of them :pac:

Could declare it unplayable and take a penalty drop

So when you go in the sand you take a penalty!! Excellent course management

TitianGerm · 01-07-2019 6:49pm

etxp wrote: »

So when you go in the sand you take a penalty!! Excellent course management

Take the penalty rather than leave it in the sand the first go :pac:

In all seriousness I did see a guy declare a ball unplayable in the bunker before after it took him 4 shots to get out of the previous one!!

GreeBo · 01-07-2019 8:42pm

megabomberman wrote: »

I think this is a good point, for us high handicappers if a green isn't surrounded by water or white stakes I think a dig of the 3 wood off the deck can be the best option.

At least in my case where there is absolutely no guarantee I won't hit two reckless mid/short irons after taking the 'sensible' option anyway.

I think that's the basic flaw in high handicap golfers.
"Sure i can duff a 7 iron too so i might as well hit the 3w"

In all my experience that is flawed logic

GolfNut33 · 02-07-2019 10:07am

Another example. Playing on Sunday and FC was in serious trouble in a drain but had a bit of an angle to swing at it to get it out of trouble and back in to play. As it was a penalty area he could have dropped it out for a one stroke penalty and then playing his 3rd from a guaranteed good lie. At best all he could have done was to get it back onto the fairway where he was going to playing his 3rd anyway.

He proceeded to slash at it leaving it in the drain, then had another go with an angry swing at it and left in there again. Ball was swiftly put in his pocket there after. This type of stuff is nothing to do with skill, its just not thinking about what you're doing and weighing up the risks and rewards.

blue note · 02-07-2019 11:16am

Seve OB wrote: »

played a game the other day, par 5, I got a good drive away and left myself about 215 to the pin, bunkers short and right of a small green, pin tucked away . clever shot was to lay up short of the bunkers about 70 yards out and chip in from there.
so I took out a 4 iron and went for it. stuck it to 12 foot. missed the eagle by an inch but a tap in birdie.
some of you guys would have had me playing course management shots where I would have been lucky to make par and bringing bogey into play. by taking on the shot I was not making things any worse for myself, sure I could have ended up in a bunker, but isn't that what a sand wedge is for

I like this example. It's a good example of when you should actually think about the consequences instead of just playing safe.

The crucial thing here is that a bunker isn't the worst place to be. Even when I had a handicap in the 20s, if I was in a bunker I'd more often than not get it out, into the green in the general direction of the hole. So it was usually a spot out and a 2 putt. Not a bad scenario if things go wrong. Whereas if I lay up successfully, I might have to chip over the bunkers. I still hate that shot and there's every chance I'll go into them, or blade it over the green. Or I could lay up further back and leave myself a full wedge into the green. But I'd fancy myself to get it more consistently close from the bunker.

And if course there's always the chance I'll hit the green. And a birdie is worth 4 points off 18.

I suppose the thing to remember is that course management isn't just about playing safe.

blue note · 02-07-2019 11:24am

GreeBo wrote: »

I think that's the basic flaw in high handicap golfers.
"Sure i can duff a 7 iron too so i might as well hit the 3w"

In all my experience that is flawed logic

I think for the real beginners, a 7 wood or the like can be their favourite club with good reason. When you duff an iron, you can be walking 10 yards to hit it again. When you knock a wood you might still get 100 yards from it. It can make the round much more enjoyable to have a club that you sometimes hit 180 yards and sometimes you knock it but it still brings the green into range.

But once you're down below 20 if it's still your favourite club it's probably holding you back.

GreeBo · 02-07-2019 4:13pm

blue note wrote: »

I like this example. It's a good example of when you should actually think about the consequences instead of just playing safe.

The crucial thing here is that a bunker isn't the worst place to be. Even when I had a handicap in the 20s, if I was in a bunker I'd more often than not get it out, into the green in the general direction of the hole. So it was usually a spot out and a 2 putt. Not a bad scenario if things go wrong. Whereas if I lay up successfully, I might have to chip over the bunkers. I still hate that shot and there's every chance I'll go into them, or blade it over the green. Or I could lay up further back and leave myself a full wedge into the green. But I'd fancy myself to get it more consistently close from the bunker.

And if course there's always the chance I'll hit the green. And a birdie is worth 4 points off 18.

I suppose the thing to remember is that course management isn't just about playing safe.

I think is where the confusion lies.
Good course management doesnt automatically mean laying up.
It certainly *never* means laying up if you then leave yourself a chip shot over a bunker!

A birdie is worth 4 points, and a 7 is worth nothing. If you are off 18 its probably for a reason and I'm going to guess its not because you cant hit wedges, more likely because you cant hit any irons consistently. However, the facts are that shorter irons are easier to hit than longer irons and certainly than long fairway woods. High lofted rescues/etc change this a little, but the distance will be similar enough to 6-7iron anyway as makes no odds.

blue note wrote: »

I think for the real beginners, a 7 wood or the like can be their favourite club with good reason. When you duff an iron, you can be walking 10 yards to hit it again. When you knock a wood you might still get 100 yards from it. It can make the round much more enjoyable to have a club that you sometimes hit 180 yards and sometimes you knock it but it still brings the green into range.

But once you're down below 20 if it's still your favourite club it's probably holding you back.

No problem at all with a 7 or higher wood, but if you are hitting a 7w you arent really "going for it" anymore than you would be with a 6 iron. You just happen to not be hitting a iron.

However if you are trying to lower your handicap and hitting 7w because you cant hit a 6iron, then you probably need a lesson.

benny79 · 04-07-2019 11:36am

Ive gone back to 19 :rolleyes: but I did join a new club this year and have being working on my course management. I am actually playing well just putting myself in bad positions or having 1 or 2 mares on holes.

Anyway I recently got fitted for a new Driver and 3 wood & was playing my old course in a open last Sunday..

My driving was a bit all over the place as I was very tense holding it for some reason! but I was still scoring & going ok.. I was actually thinking if my driver kicks in I might actually have a chance. Played a few holes Friday and was smashing it but struggling with new 3 wood.

8th hole par 5 dogleg left smashed my drive down to the turn. 230 yds to green im sitting in the middle of the fairway. Trees all down the right you go there you're dead. bunkers & down hill on left there and it take a good shot to hold the green. So I gave it some taught said fcuk it im going for it.

Even doe I haven't hit the new 3 wood great a slowed my swing down a bit didnt catch it perfect but it was straight left it 5 yds short of green chip and tap in birdie

It was totally the wrong shot to play having been in this position loads & pushed it into the trees right many times & scratched. Ended up with 34 pts after with driving all over the shop but I tell you one thing I was buzzing from that birdie on 8 & the 3 wood shot even doe I didnt caught it great...

blue note · 23-10-2020 10:24am

I thought I'd reply here as I was dragging the other thread off topic. But I quite enjoy talking about course management and myself, so I might as well reply.

GreeBo wrote: »

You probably dont have enough bounce on your LW, you want 12+ really, otherwise you end up digging and the ball will not come out (well it can, but you need to know how to play it!)

If hitting a bunker means at least 3 more shots and often more, then you need to manage your way to avoid bunkers at all costs. That may sound crazy (why would I lay up with an 8i or why am I not aiming for the green) but just look at whats its costing you!
How many times does hitting the green lead to a birdie vs how many times does hitting a bunker lead to a scratch?

What handicap are you and what do you expect to be under the new system?

I reckon the club doesn't have enough bounce. It's actually a great club, but just not for bunkers. But it had more loft so I said I'd give it a go out of them. My normal form in bunkers is to get it onto the green and two putt. So they're not to be avoided at all costs for me, but I do try to avoid them.

And actually, looking at that particular hole on hdid, the last time I scratched it (double or worse) was October 19. Just over a year between scratches and I've had 2 birdies on it.

GreeBo wrote: »

Leaving yourself a distance that you are not good at is bad course management!!!
The previous shot selection was the issue.
I played with a guy last week who thought course management was just not hitting a driver off the tee. He couldnt understand why hitting a 4 iron and then trying to hit the green with his 3 wood wasnt a sensible approach on index 1 par 4

Higher handicaps should take more club when hitting to the green 90% of the time because 95% of the time the trouble is short. I know you had one scenario where there was trouble over the back but if you analyse most holes on most courses, all the trouble is short or at most halfway up the green.

I almost agree fully with the first point. The one cavaet I have is if it is a shot that you cannot avoid having frequently on a course, there's no use avoiding it, because you'll have to hit it sometimes anyway. And the best way to learn it is practicing it. And shots from 100m - 40m I find difficult and there's no avoiding them. The second being a good example - laying up to say 120m is a very tricky landing area compared to 100m. And you will probably be hitting on an upslope. In this case, even with the second shot being difficult for me it's the right option. the 100m or less shot is also unavoidable on the 4th, 6th and 7th.

I also agree that course management is not just playing safe / avoiding the driver. The best hole for me statistically is the 11th in Corballis, where I more often than not try to drive the green. The main reason for this is because I hate the approach shot if I lay up. It's always a bad, sandy lie. You're hitting blind, uphill to the green from a distance I don't like. So I tend to hit a 3/5 wood at the green. I'm rarely putting, but tend to come out with a 4/5 on the hole.

I'm not sure about the higher handicaps should take more club mantra either. 3 of my scratches were from going long. And in my experience, the bunkers tend to be at the front of greens, but the bushes / thick links rough tends to be at the back. So unless there's water at the front, I'd be more nervous of running off the back of the green. It's very rare I'm not aiming for the middle of the green to be honest anyway.

And I'm currently off 14.1. I plugged my rounds into the calculator and came out with 16.8 a little while ago. I think I've had another couple of bad rounds since, so that could be higher now.

willabur · 23-10-2020 11:14am

I love talking about it also. Another thing about Corballis is that its not typical links golf as there are not many chances to bump and run the ball. You are forced to carry the ball to your targets and the targets are tiny and the rough is penal, I think a good striker of the ball well will have more scratches than on a larger course if they are careless about what lines they are taking

Question about 2nd hole, I remember the pin was on the right hand side of the green, Wind was negligible. What was your intention with your approach shot?

blue note · 23-10-2020 11:50am

willabur wrote: »

I love talking about it also. Another thing about Corballis is that its not typical links golf as there are not many chances to bump and run the ball. You are forced to carry the ball to your targets and the targets are tiny and the rough is penal, I think a good striker of the ball well will have more scratches than on a larger course if they are careless about what lines they are taking

Question about 2nd hole, I remember the pin was on the right hand side of the green, Wind was negligible. What was your intention with your approach shot?

I was going for the middle of the green. If I remember correctly I was a little less than 90m out. And I just hit it slightly too hard and pushed it a little to the right, it carried an extra 10m, landed on the downslope after the green and bounced into the thick rough. First attempt at getting it out moved it about an inch, second moved it about a yard forward.

The problem with hitting to come to the front of the green is that if you go right you're chipping up that awful little slope. Middle of the green is the smart play on that hole.

And it's the least forgiving course I've played. This summer I played Portmarnock links, Narin and Portsalon. While all three of those are harder, they're more forgiving. There's a little more room around the greens and generally when I off the fairways I had a shot out of the rough.

Seve OB · 23-10-2020 11:59am

blue note wrote: »

I was going for the middle of the green. If I remember correctly I was a little less than 90m out. And I just hit it slightly too hard and pushed it a little to the right, it carried an extra 10m, landed on the downslope after the green and bounced into the thick rough. First attempt at getting it out moved it about an inch, second moved it about a yard forward.

The problem with hitting to come to the front of the green is that if you go right you're chipping up that awful little slope. Middle of the green is the smart play on that hole.

And it's the least forgiving course I've played. This summer I played Portmarnock links, Narin and Portsalon. While all three of those are harder, they're more forgiving. There's a little more room around the greens and generally when I off the fairways I had a shot out of the rough.

Sorry I have to disagree with you there. If you are on the left to centre of the fairway your smart play will be short left side of the green, allowing for a hard bounce and it might run on. If you come up a little short, it’s a good miss.
Less so if you are out the right side though as a hard bounce will see you go left, trouble and possibly OB, centre would be a better play from that side

blue note · 23-10-2020 12:56pm

Seve OB wrote: »

Sorry I have to disagree with you there. If you are on the left to centre of the fairway your smart play will be short left side of the green, allowing for a hard bounce and it might run on. If you come up a little short, it’s a good miss.
Less so if you are out the right side though as a hard bounce will see you go left, trouble and possibly OB, centre would be a better play from that side

That's not ideal if you have a high ball flight which I do. So if I come up short, I'm more than likely not running onto the green if I'm at all off line. And the bit that you're talking about on the front of the green is 10m wide. The chip from the left is okay, from the right it's tricky. If you aim to land it on the middle of the green you've twice as much green to aim for.

If I'm coming from the left of the fairway that's the line I'll take, but I'll plan to land it on the green. From the right of the fairway we're agreed on the line.

willabur · 23-10-2020 2:26pm

sounds like a few rounds of pitch and putt would help you develop the half shot you are looking for. Have to agree with seve_ob on number 2 that you need to aim left hand side as you have plenty of run on space and the green is 20 yards deep there. Takes the scratch out of play and is good course management.

GreeBo · 23-10-2020 3:29pm

blue note wrote: »

I thought I'd reply here as I was dragging the other thread off topic. But I quite enjoy talking about course management and myself, so I might as well reply.

Its the trainspotting of golf, and I love it

I reckon the club doesn't have enough bounce. It's actually a great club, but just not for bunkers. But it had more loft so I said I'd give it a go out of them. My normal form in bunkers is to get it onto the green and two putt. So they're not to be avoided at all costs for me, but I do try to avoid them.

And actually, looking at that particular hole on hdid, the last time I scratched it (double or worse) was October 19. Just over a year between scratches and I've had 2 birdies on it.

Yeah, for years I played with a 60* that only had 4* of bounce as I loved opening it up and cutting the ball in the air.
I had myself convinced that I wouldnt be able to do this with more bounce. Last time I was buying wedges I could only get 12 and 14* there and then, so I just went with it. Has made zero difference to opening it up and has made bunkers and regular chipping easier, its so much harder to duff it.

I almost agree fully with the first point. The one cavaet I have is if it is a shot that you cannot avoid having frequently on a course, there's no use avoiding it, because you'll have to hit it sometimes anyway. And the best way to learn it is practicing it. And shots from 100m - 40m I find difficult and there's no avoiding them. The second being a good example - laying up to say 120m is a very tricky landing area compared to 100m. And you will probably be hitting on an upslope. In this case, even with the second shot being difficult for me it's the right option. the 100m or less shot is also unavoidable on the 4th, 6th and 7th.

I dont know the course at all, but this might be one of those rare occasions where not laying up is the better option.
We have a par 5 where laying up leaves you with a <100M downhill wedge to a raised green with huge drop offs either side and surrounded by bunkers.
Often just hitting enough club for your second to get you through the next of the fairway (its tree lined just in case!) works out better, you might not get the birdie but you have to be pretty unlucky not to get the par.

I also agree that course management is not just playing safe / avoiding the driver. The best hole for me statistically is the 11th in Corballis, where I more often than not try to drive the green. The main reason for this is because I hate the approach shot if I lay up. It's always a bad, sandy lie. You're hitting blind, uphill to the green from a distance I don't like. So I tend to hit a 3/5 wood at the green. I'm rarely putting, but tend to come out with a 4/5 on the hole.

5th in Grange is the same, its a shortish uphill par 4 with pot bunkers short of the green and either side of it. Its a dogleg right with trees up both sides, but if you are long enough you have to be pretty unlucky to get blocked out. Playing short off the tee leaves you with anywhere from 6-8i to the green. I birdie the hole 25% of the time and par it the rest.
hitting a hard driver is the safe shot here.

I'm not sure about the higher handicaps should take more club mantra either. 3 of my scratches were from going long. And in my experience, the bunkers tend to be at the front of greens, but the bushes / thick links rough tends to be at the back. So unless there's water at the front, I'd be more nervous of running off the back of the green. It's very rare I'm not aiming for the middle of the green to be honest anyway.

Links style courses might cause the advice not the ring true, but Id say 90% of parklands have nothing beyond the green on most of the holes, and even if they do, its only an issue if you happen to hit the all perfectly, if that was a problem we'd be off lower handicaps

And I'm currently off 14.1. I plugged my rounds into the calculator and came out with 16.8 a little while ago. I think I've had another couple of bad rounds since, so that could be higher now.

Yeah, you did mention though that you score better elsewhere, so maybe you just need a new strategy for corballis.
Most people who join my club go out 2-3 shots until the figure it out so its not uncommon.

willabur · 23-10-2020 4:35pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Its the trainspotting of golf, and I love it

Yeah, for years I played with a 60* that only had 4* of bounce as I loved opening it up and cutting the ball in the air.
I had myself convinced that I wouldnt be able to do this with more bounce. Last time I was buying wedges I could only get 12 and 14* there and then, so I just went with it. Has made zero difference to opening it up and has made bunkers and regular chipping easier, its so much harder to duff it.

I dont know the course at all, but this might be one of those rare occasions where not laying up is the better option.
We have a par 5 where laying up leaves you with a <100M downhill wedge to a raised green with huge drop offs either side and surrounded by bunkers.
Often just hitting enough club for your second to get you through the next of the fairway (its tree lined just in case!) works out better, you might not get the birdie but you have to be pretty unlucky not to get the par.

5th in Grange is the same, its a shortish uphill par 4 with pot bunkers short of the green and either side of it. Its a dogleg right with trees up both sides, but if you are long enough you have to be pretty unlucky to get blocked out. Playing short off the tee leaves you with anywhere from 6-8i to the green. I birdie the hole 25% of the time and par it the rest.
hitting a hard driver is the safe shot here.

Links style courses might cause the advice not the ring true, but Id say 90% of parklands have nothing beyond the green on most of the holes, and even if they do, its only an issue if you happen to hit the all perfectly, if that was a problem we'd be off lower handicaps

Yeah, you did mention though that you score better elsewhere, so maybe you just need a new strategy for corballis.
Most people who join my club go out 2-3 shots until the figure it out so its not uncommon.

You must be curious to play it sometime

Russman · 23-10-2020 4:50pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Its the trainspotting of golf, and I love it

Yeah, for years I played with a 60* that only had 4* of bounce as I loved opening it up and cutting the ball in the air.
I had myself convinced that I wouldnt be able to do this with more bounce. Last time I was buying wedges I could only get 12 and 14* there and then, so I just went with it. Has made zero difference to opening it up and has made bunkers and regular chipping easier, its so much harder to duff it.

5th in Grange is the same, its a shortish uphill par 4 with pot bunkers short of the green and either side of it. Its a dogleg right with trees up both sides, but if you are long enough you have to be pretty unlucky to get blocked out. Playing short off the tee leaves you with anywhere from 6-8i to the green. I birdie the hole 25% of the time and par it the rest.
hitting a hard driver is the safe shot here.

Bounce is your friend, as the saying goes. I find its the heel grind or lack of, that is the main factor for me in the playabilty of a wedge. That said, and its obviously each to their own, but I'm still not convinced club golfers should carry a 60 degree at all. I've only put one in the bag this year really, and I'm very much "meh" about it. I'll probably keep it in for emergency use only, but really a 56 is enough. I'd bet over the course of a season it costs most golfers more shots than it saves. Purely IMO.

Really interesting comment about the 5th in Grange. I'm not a member but have played it plenty of times, from schools golf back in the day, to Senior Cup, Lumsden Cup and social games more recently. By far the most common club I've seen is some class of fairway wood over or around the trees on the right.
Driver does actually make a lot of sense thinking about it now. Especially from a strokes gained perspective, I do think you get up and down more often from 40 yards than 100 yards, despite it not being a "full" shot. Food for thought.

blue note · 23-10-2020 4:57pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Its the trainspotting of golf, and I love it

Links style courses might cause the advice not the ring true, but Id say 90% of parklands have nothing beyond the green on most of the holes, and even if they do, its only an issue if you happen to hit the all perfectly, if that was a problem we'd be off lower handicaps

Yeah, you did mention though that you score better elsewhere, so maybe you just need a new strategy for corballis.
Most people who join my club go out 2-3 shots until the figure it out so its not uncommon.

I grew up playing Tramore and there are bushes / trees on 8 holes where if you go to long you'll risk losing a ball in them. There are bunkers on another couple which aren't so bad. Maybe I just go way long when I go long.

And it's just not strategy that's the big problem for me in Corballis. I'm certainly not saying I'm perfect in that regard, but I lose my shots elsewhere. The game I know how to play is not suitable for the course.

The irons are the big difference for me. They were the strongest part of my game - they tended to be straight and long, would stop quickly and I was very consistent with distance (for my handicap of course). Now, I'm not hitting all that many full irons into greens. And even then, since I hit them very high, they're nowhere near as strong in links winds. In particular the higher irons can just start moving at their apex and suddenly they're dropping 30 yards left / right of where I was aiming or dropping way short or flying over a green.

On top of that, the non-full swing shots are everywhere on that course and they're my absolute worst. I'm always losing concentration on them and either hitting before the ball or hitting them thin. Thin means long, means possibly a lost ball. Hitting before the ball is frustrating, but generally not the end of the world.

There's no way for me to lower my scores and become consistent other than learning to hit the shots I need to hit. It's frustrating that I was consistently in the 80s gross in Tramore and now I'm roughly the same gross (probably slightly higher) in Corballis, but it's a par 66 instead of 72.

Course Management

Comments