United States of Europe...is it time?

EmmetSpiceland · 30-03-2020 8:29pm #1

With the country staring down the “barrel” of, yet another, deep recession and the talk of the EU willing to “consolidate” the debts incurred by this, current, crisis, if the Germans agree, into a single “burden” paid back by all, should we be looking to cast off the tattered cloak of, petty, nationalism and embrace a, federal, United States of Europe?

We’ve had almost a century of self governance, and in that time we’ve managed to hand our children over for abuse, and neglect, to the Church, we have been robbed blind by our “leaders”, we have bankrupted the country through mismanagement, ineptitude and greed, and we continue to blindly walk our future generations into an “ecological” disaster.

By signing up to a, proper, European “superstate” we would find ourselves, largely, free from the “burdens” that have been holding us back for so long. Our non-existent, and laughable, neutrality would be gone overnight. Our armies would be co-opted into a, larger, European “armed service”. This would provide us a proper military wing.

And while we would still have the ability to govern our own “state” we would be under the watchful eye of the central government of Europe.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d be proud of my country, and our flag, as the next guy. Would still sing the soccer “anthem” at Lansdowne Road during the Six Nations, but it’s time for us to “grow up” and accept that Ireland needs to be sitting up at the table with the “big boys” and not cowering somewhere between the brits and yanks.

And now seems like it could well be the perfect time for all EU states to come together, and move “forward”, as one. Together.

CtevenSrowder · 30-03-2020 8:30pm

No.

is_that_so · 30-03-2020 8:31pm

We have a raging pandemic and this is your question? Not the time to even think about it now IMO.

30-03-2020 8:32pm

Not a hope would the EU allow hurling long term on safety grounds,

So be a no from me

Interesting idea/discussion otherwise,

But i can see too much difference in regions to make it viable,same as the USA realistically shouldnt be 1 country anymore

BorneTobyWilde · 30-03-2020 8:33pm

Would rather Trump to invade and claim Ireland.

Duke of Url · 30-03-2020 8:33pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

With the country staring down the “barrel” of, yet another, deep recession and the talk of the EU willing to “consolidate” the debts incurred by this, current, crisis, if the Germans agree, into a single “burden” paid back by all, should we be looking to cast off the tattered cloak of, petty, nationalism and embrace a, federal, United States of Europe?

We’ve had almost a century of self governance, and in that time we’ve managed to hand our children over for abuse, and neglect, to the Church, we have been robbed blind by our “leaders”, we have bankrupted the country through mismanagement, ineptitude and greed, and we continue to blindly walk our future generations into an “ecological” disaster.

By signing up to a, proper, European “superstate” we would find ourselves, largely, free from the “burdens” that have been holding us back for so long. Our non-existent, and laughable, neutrality would be gone overnight. Our armies would be co-opted into a, larger, European “armed service”. This would provide us a proper military wing.

And while we would still have the ability to govern our own “state” we would be under the watchful eye of the central government of Europe.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d be proud of my country, and our flag, as the next guy. Would still sing the soccer “anthem” at Lansdowne Road during the Six Nations, but it’s time for us to “grow up” and accept that Ireland needs to be sitting up at the table with the “big boys” and not cowering somewhere between the brits and yanks.

And now seems like it could well be the perfect time for all EU states to come together, and move “forward”, as one. Together.

While I have no issue with a USE I actually think this pandemic has wedged a bigger gap within the EU.

It’s every country for themselves with no leadership from Brussels since day 1

The silence is deafening.

Woke Hogan · 30-03-2020 8:35pm

is_that_so wrote: »

We have a raging pandemic and this is your question? Not the time to even think about it now IMO.

You say that we’re all stuck in the trenches ducking zipping bullets during a war. We can think and talk about other topics.

To the original poster: no, it’s a stupid idea.

30-03-2020 8:37pm

The long awaited German conquering of Europe.

Nein, danke.

Rodney Bathgate · 30-03-2020 8:39pm

What has the EU ever done for us?

8-10 · 30-03-2020 8:41pm

I dont fully understand the perceived benefits you're bringing to the table?

What are the specific burdens you mean?

Seems like a very half baked idea, need much more details on it to have a sensible debate

Duke of Url · 30-03-2020 8:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The long awaited German conquering of Europe.

Nein, danke.

statesaver · 30-03-2020 8:48pm

Woke Hogan wrote: »

You say that we’re all stuck in the trenches ducking zipping bullets during a war. We can think and talk about other topics.

To the original poster: no, it’s a stupid idea.

No he didn't. :rolleyes:

biko · 30-03-2020 8:51pm

Hell no Guy Verhofstadt, the EU experiment have failed.
I don't know about you guys but I like my politicians elected and accountable to their electorate.

Duke of Url · 30-03-2020 8:59pm

biko wrote: »

Hell no Guy Verhofstadt, the EU experiment have failed.
I don't know about you guys but I like my politicians elected and accountable to their electorate.

MEPs are elected

Rodney Bathgate · 30-03-2020 9:03pm

Duke of Url wrote: »

MEPs are elected

And look at the quality of candidates we elected - Mick Wallace, Ming Flanagan and Claire Daily.

Guess what - all the other countries are sending their castoffs the same way we are.

BanditLuke · 30-03-2020 9:03pm

I'd say this pandemic has kiilled the notion stone dead.

Duke of Url · 30-03-2020 9:05pm

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

And look at the quality of candidates we elected - Mick Wallace, Ming Flanagan and Claire Daily.

Guess what - all the other countries are sending their castoffs the same way we are.

Sure that’s our own fault

Firblog · 30-03-2020 9:06pm

Duke of Url wrote: »

MEPs are elected

So are county Councillors, and like MEPs they don't make the decisions.

Rodney Bathgate · 30-03-2020 9:10pm

One of the first things that member states did was put up border restrictions and travel restrictions. There is no EU level co-operation in tackling this and there is no desire for that to happen.

Any pronouncements from the EU or it’s organs such as ECB are attempts to appear relevant, but they are clearly not. They are out of the game, watching from the sidelines, not needed or wanted.

If anything it shows that integration has gone too far and that it is time to take a step back and return sovereignty to member states.

Rodney Bathgate · 30-03-2020 9:11pm

Duke of Url wrote: »

Sure that’s our own fault

Because we know the European Parliament is a joke, hence we all send jokers.

osarusan · 30-03-2020 10:04pm

This pandemic won't have helped anyway.

It's crying out, just as USA is, for a coordinated and centralised response, but instead (similar to the USA) we can see a lot of 'every man for himself' reaction - panic buying and stockpiling at national level - and a lot of EU countries would be thinking that they need to develop more national infrastructure (pharma production, medicl devices, food security etc.) to deal with future crises, rather than at EU level.

30-03-2020 10:28pm

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

And look at the quality of candidates we elected - Mick Wallace, Ming Flanagan and Claire Daily.

Guess what - all the other countries are sending their castoffs the same way we are.

Ming and Daly are excellent politicians. They represent the ordinary man and women very well.

_Kaiser_ · 30-03-2020 10:39pm

Absolutely not. When push comes to shove, Germany and France do what is in their domestic interest, regardless of what effects it has on the rest of the bloc. We saw it a decade ago and you can be sure that once Covid is under control and attention turns to economic recovery, they'll try it again.

Of course in Ireland we might as well be part of the Superstate fantasy as our TDs invariably do what they're told anyway on everything bar corporation tax (because even they realise the damage that giving that up would do), or are bullied into it (Lisbon 2, the late Brian Lenihan etc).

If anything the EU should be rolle back into the EEC trade bloc it started as.

Montage of Feck · 30-03-2020 10:47pm

Why don't we become a state of the fatherland? It would cut out a whole load of useless middle men in Brussels.

RobertKK · 30-03-2020 10:51pm

Yes.

We have a pandemic and we did not have a co-ordinated response in the EU, as the powers with health lie with individual governments who together run 27 different health systems, some better than others. The EU did not have any powers in this area.

This leads to countries looking out for themselves as it is each country looking out for itself, when a closer union where this is centralised could better target the areas where it is needed, so we would not have countries competing against one another.

A closer union would bring better solidarity as it would be in everyone's interest.

Eric Cartman · 30-03-2020 11:27pm

BanditLuke wrote: »

I'd say this pandemic has kiilled the notion stone dead.

hopefully this wakes people up to the many reasons we need strict and tight border controls.

Urethral Buttercup · 30-03-2020 11:39pm

Marvellous work.

Beasty · 30-03-2020 11:55pm

All countries are staring down the barrel with this. Arguably Italy and Spain will be the most bankrupt of EU countries and Ireland could find itself contributing to their bailouts. I don't think Germany would have the appetite to consolidate the whole EU and essentially provide life support for most of the members

EmmetSpiceland · 31-03-2020 12:17am

is_that_so wrote: »

We have a raging pandemic and this is your question? Not the time to even think about it now IMO.

When no EU state is going to get out of this “unscathed” is now not the time to be looking to join together? Rather than let each one face the “uncertainty” alone?

Duke of Url wrote: »

While I have no issue with a USE I actually think this pandemic has wedged a bigger gap within the EU.

It’s every country for themselves with no leadership from Brussels since day 1

The silence is deafening.

If there was one “superstate” the EU, as it is now, would have to be re-assembled. Removing all the bloated bureaucracy, the inefficiencies and the hypocrisy.

Deleted User wrote: »

The long awaited German conquering of Europe.

Nein, danke.

Ironically, the Germans are the ones who seem to be “shying away” from, what always seemed to be, their “endgame”.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

hopefully this wakes people up to the many reasons we need strict and tight border controls.

Would you not see an USE army, coupled with a proper navy, not help strengthen our border “control”? There could be one “immigration department” that would process everyone.

We could do away with the despicable “practice” of imprisoning refugees for the best part of a decade in the Direct Provision centres.

Beasty wrote: »

All countries are staring down the barrel with this. Arguably Italy and Spain will be the most bankrupt of EU countries and Ireland could find itself contributing to their bailouts. I don't think Germany would have the appetite to consolidate the whole EU and essentially provide life support for most of the members

Again, seems ironic, as there have been long held suspicions regarding Germany’s “motives” within the EU and it’s purpose.

For me, the EU is a mess. A hypocritical mess that does nothing but give more politicians a place to “play” and to feel important. It’s high time that model was scrapped a new, sturdier and more robust system of central governance was installed in Europe.

Ireland should not shy away from such a noble cause. I believe it was Thomas, Tom, Kettle who, writing as a soldier in WWI, said “My only counsel to Ireland is, that to become deeply Irish, she must become European” and it’s about bloody time we, truly, did.

ArchXStanton · 31-03-2020 12:22am

No, it's a pipe dream, another radical utopia and well to be honest I just don't like that organisation, I think Europe's gone to sh*t since its started to try flex its muscles, it has serious issues when it comes to democracy too

31-03-2020 12:29am

biko wrote: »

Hell no Guy Verhofstadt, the EU experiment have failed.
I don't know about you guys but I like my politicians elected and accountable to their electorate.

MEPs are elected and Commissioners are appointed by governments (which are also elected)

Don't like your MEP? vote for a different one.
Don't like your commissioner? Vote in a different government party

How is this undemocratic. In fact it is more that Ireland, which is undergoing it's undemocratic election of a Senate right now

Firblog · 31-03-2020 10:43am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

It’s high time that model was scrapped a new, sturdier and more robust system of central governance was installed in Europe.

Kinda giving the game away with the use of that one word, and who is going to 'install' this more 'robust' central government? Those in the upper echelons of European politics/business/civil service? Whether the plebs want it or not?

Wouldn't be the first time would it?

8-10 · 31-03-2020 10:46am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Ireland should not shy away from such a noble cause

The worry to me in what you're saying is that we would be looking at a hard border with the North, as it's clear that the UK would not join

RobertKK · 31-03-2020 11:52am

Just a reminder for the people blaming the EU in the current crisis.

https://twitter.com/bbckatyaadler/status/1244896254754271233?s=21

One eyed Jack · 31-03-2020 12:57pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

With the country staring down the “barrel” of, yet another, deep recession and the talk of the EU willing to “consolidate” the debts incurred by this, current, crisis, if the Germans agree, into a single “burden” paid back by all, should we be looking to cast off the tattered cloak of, petty, nationalism and embrace a, federal, United States of Europe?

Smells like you’re suggesting Ireland participate in taking collective responsibility for something ‘we’ had no hand in, but go on...

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

We’ve had almost a century of self governance, and in that time we’ve managed to hand our children over for abuse, and neglect, to the Church, we have been robbed blind by our “leaders”, we have bankrupted the country through mismanagement, ineptitude and greed, and we continue to blindly walk our future generations into an “ecological” disaster.

‘We’ did none of those things...

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

By signing up to a, proper, European “superstate” we would find ourselves, largely, free from the “burdens” that have been holding us back for so long. Our non-existent, and laughable, neutrality would be gone overnight. Our armies would be co-opted into a, larger, European “armed service”. This would provide us a proper military wing.

Our neutrality has been a burden? We have a solid reputation as UN peacekeepers. You want Ireland to become part of a larger “armed service”, to do what exactly?

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

And while we would still have the ability to govern our own “state” we would be under the watchful eye of the central government of Europe.

I’m beginning to think you’re on a wind-up. Either that or you aren’t aware that we are already under the watchful eye of a central government of Europe through a number of International bodies.

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong, I’d be proud of my country, and our flag, as the next guy. Would still sing the soccer “anthem” at Lansdowne Road during the Six Nations, but it’s time for us to “grow up” and accept that Ireland needs to be sitting up at the table with the “big boys” and not cowering somewhere between the brits and yanks.

It’s that sort of nonsense rhetoric got us into the Eurozone in the first place. Now we effectively can’t leave as our currency wouldn’t be worth shìt.

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

And now seems like it could well be the perfect time for all EU states to come together, and move “forward”, as one. Together.

We’re sinking “as one” already, there is no “moving forward” when global economies are barely treading water. Ireland in particular are up shìt creek without a paddle given we’re being pulled between the whims of the US and European countries foreign policy decisions already. “Sitting at the table with the big boys”?

You’re having a laugh, surely! :pac:

Rodney Bathgate · 31-03-2020 12:59pm

Nice try, Ursula. Now jog on.

biko · 31-03-2020 3:48pm

The general idea of globalism, and the EU, is to centralise power.
The idea of nationalism is for each country to make its own decisions, and form voluntary partnerships around issues like trade and climate.

To force nation states to join together was tried in Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, both now failed.

The reason it appears to still be working in China is because their oppressive regime, a solution I'd prefer not to have in Europe, no matter how appealing it may seem to some.

paw patrol · 31-03-2020 4:12pm

Duke of Url wrote: »

MEPs are elected

most MEPs are powerless tbh

Deleted User wrote: »

MEPs are elected and Commissioners are appointed by governments (which are also elected)

Don't like your MEP? vote for a different one.
Don't like your commissioner? Vote in a different government party

How is this undemocratic. In fact it is more that Ireland, which is undergoing it's undemocratic election of a Senate right now

that's sh1te.

We are argue on policy but political appointments rarely make it to the fore.
Some of these appointments aren't even known to be up for grabs at election .

it's not practical to discuss this at election time. Its' an unknown

Who knew when voting in FG to punish FF that Enda would send Phil Hogan to the EU? A punishment on us all.

biko · 31-03-2020 4:42pm

How our friends at EU operate
First they pretend to help, and don't.
Then they kick you when you're down.

Responding to criticism that the EU has been slow to help, president of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen made a speech on Wednesday, claiming Brussels will stand with Italy.

However, in the midst of what has been dubbed the worst health and economic crisis of our generation, the European Court of Justice – the body that has the task of ensuring compliance with European law – fined the boot-shaped country £6.8million for not having fully recovered the state aid granted to the Sardinian hotel sector in 2008.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1255171/eu-news-italy-coronavirus-deaths-cases-euro-eurozone-stocks-spt

ELM327 · 31-03-2020 4:46pm

Once we can have an electoral college the same as the US to ensure that small states like Ireland are not neglected at the whim of larger/more populous ones, and states can set their own taxes like in the US then I'm all for it.

JPCN1 · 31-03-2020 4:54pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

With the country staring down the “barrel” of, yet another, deep recession and the talk of the EU willing to “consolidate” the debts incurred by this, current, crisis, if the Germans agree, into a single “burden” paid back by all, should we be looking to cast off the tattered cloak of, petty, nationalism and embrace a, federal, United States of Europe?

We’ve had almost a century of self governance, and in that time we’ve managed to hand our children over for abuse, and neglect, to the Church, we have been robbed blind by our “leaders”, we have bankrupted the country through mismanagement, ineptitude and greed, and we continue to blindly walk our future generations into an “ecological” disaster.

By signing up to a, proper, European “superstate” we would find ourselves, largely, free from the “burdens” that have been holding us back for so long. Our non-existent, and laughable, neutrality would be gone overnight. Our armies would be co-opted into a, larger, European “armed service”. This would provide us a proper military wing.

And while we would still have the ability to govern our own “state” we would be under the watchful eye of the central government of Europe.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d be proud of my country, and our flag, as the next guy. Would still sing the soccer “anthem” at Lansdowne Road during the Six Nations, but it’s time for us to “grow up” and accept that Ireland needs to be sitting up at the table with the “big boys” and not cowering somewhere between the brits and yanks.

And now seems like it could well be the perfect time for all EU states to come together, and move “forward”, as one. Together.

You really don't sound proud of your country. And no. Way.

JohnnyFlash · 31-03-2020 4:59pm

I'd be in favour of a much stronger EU following this crisis. There's huge opportunity for a centralised budget process, harmonised tax rates, strategic investment in pan-European infrastructure, a more streamlined approach to agricultural policy, and a myriad of other opportunities for closer harmonisation. It would also be a bulwark against the worrying rise of nationalism across Europe.

biko · 31-03-2020 5:05pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

There's huge opportunity for a centralised budget process, harmonised tax rates, strategic investment in pan-European infrastructure, a more streamlined approach to agricultural policy, and a myriad of other opportunities for closer harmonisation.

There is nothing you said there that didn't mean anything other than "we should all be the same".
Don't you like diversity?

JohnnyFlash · 31-03-2020 5:14pm

biko wrote: »

There is nothing you said there that didn't mean anything other than "we should all be the same".
Don't you like diversity?

Ireland would still be Ireland. We'd just be part of a much stronger fiscal and political union that would be able to make Europe a stronger player when it comes to taking part in the world stage. A pan-European approach to healthcare for example would allow us to leverage upon a single approach to procurement, purchasing, and delivery of health services.

I never got this de Valera view of the world - sure aren't we poor but free to be poor together. Nationalism is fine when it comes to singing out the anthem at a soccer match; it doesn't serve countries well when they indulge in it and ignore the bigger picture.

suicide_circus · 31-03-2020 5:27pm

No thanks.

The United States of America is a union of states with the same language, history, culture, politics and outlook, more or less.

Europe is an entirely different proposition.

If anything i'd like to see the EU scale back considerably.

31-03-2020 5:31pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Ireland would still be Ireland. We'd just be part of a much stronger fiscal and political union that would be able to make Europe a stronger player when it comes to taking part in the world stage. A pan-European approach to healthcare for example would allow us to leverage upon a single approach to procurement, purchasing, and delivery of health services.

I never got this de Valera view of the world - sure aren't we poor but free to be poor together. Nationalism is fine when it comes to singing out the anthem at a soccer match; it doesn't serve countries well when they indulge in it and ignore the bigger picture.

Surely america is an advertisement againest closer political.union??

How can those living in bussels have any hope of ruling fairly over those living in roscommon and vice versa....

.even spain a mini version of the eu,with several mini-states/cultures made into one is barely holding together and had to baton-charge people off streets there recently enough....

of which the EU was completly silent on...how can anyone honestly hope for such a superstate not to become just a neo-lib version of north korea to disent??

biko · 31-03-2020 5:48pm

It's far from Donegal to Brussels.

But it's much farther from Brussels to Donegal..

biko · 31-03-2020 6:07pm

David Sassoli #notmypresident
Charles Michel#notmypresident
Ursula von der Leyen #notmypresident
Michael D Higgins #mypresident

Odhinn · 31-03-2020 6:38pm

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

One of the first things that member states did was put up border restrictions and travel restrictions. There is no EU level co-operation in tackling this and there is no desire for that to happen.

Any pronouncements from the EU or it’s organs such as ECB are attempts to appear relevant, but they are clearly not. They are out of the game, watching from the sidelines, not needed or wanted.

These statements are contradictory.

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

If anything it shows that integration has gone too far and that it is time to take a step back and return sovereignty to member states.

Kivaro · 31-03-2020 6:54pm

Macron was sounding very nationalistic today as he visited a French facility to manufacture face masks.

Let's face it; EU power is mainly controlled by Germany and France.
We should revert back to an economic alliance and not one where Germany can make unilateral decisions without the consultation of other countries e.g. when Merkel decided to flood Europe with millions of non-EU migrants because she had a moment of weakness.

I'd say Italy is on the verge of leaving this union.
And you can't blame them.

Sean.3516 · 31-03-2020 7:14pm

So far the only country that has managed to do federalism properly has been The United States by balancing the rights of the constituent states with the powers and responsibilities of the central federal authority.

And the Lockean philosophy of natural, individual rights that pre-exist government which influenced the US Constitution is the best formula for guaranteeing civil liberties provided the principles are followed through consistently (which wasn't the case in America's early history but eventually became the case).

The European nations other than perhaps the UK which is now out have no such individual rights based traditions. Since the French Revolution, the European focus has been on collective rights, which tends toward tyranny as different interest groups run roughshod over each other. That emphasis on the collective over the individual still exists in many European nations and in the structure of the European Union. I wouldn't rely on that philosophy to safeguard my civil liberties.

Also, I think the EU's treaties (which once made are almost impossible to change) would make it impossible to replicate America's example.

Also I don't know that any of the countries of Europe really want to unite. The Thirteen Colonies had a reason to unite. Not to mention a common language and culture which helps. Why would Poles or Germans or Italians have an interest in how Ireland is governed and visa versa?

The EU only ever made sense as an economic bloc. Revert back to the European Economic Community please.

United States of Europe...is it time?

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