Luas Finglas

L1011 wrote: »

Depends on the condition of the fill. Madjeski Stadium in Reading was built over a stable but still venting dump about 7 years after it was capped.

A stadium most likely has deep foundations that bypass the fill material. Houses don’t unless you’re spending a fortune/going high rise.

Remember a few years ago when FG announced that it was going to go ahead with 'one of the big three transport projects' with full clown make up on. Meaning that they were going to pick luas cross city at 10% the cost of either metro or dart underground. Then afterwards they were in the papers saying luas cc was our answer to London's crossrail, with clown shoes on also.

This is basically like that, we'll be presented with these two and possibly a third project in dramatic fashion like a sophies choice sort of scenario. And the Finglas luas will be selected then be extended to the airport along a meandering route and this will be sold to us as a great improvement and a great triumph for public infrastructure and the best value for money comboning both projects and getting both sets of benefits etc.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hopefully this could be built over the old dump and free up huge amounts of land there for housing and not go via the existing village

When you say "old dump", do you mean Dunsink or what is now Tolka Valley Park?

CatInABox wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1193166660259196928

This is based on what they looked at during the first go around. It'll change, but some elements won't. It'll turn north right at Broombridge station, go through the Dublin Industrial Estate there, then most likely an elevated bridge over the tolka valley. From there, it's anyone's guess.

Dublin Industrial Estate is in the process of being rezoned, so it's days as an Industrial Estate are numbered, I'd say it's going to be the first to be rezoned, what with the public transport connections it has.

Not sure how they'll deal with turning north/the height difference at Broombridge, elevate the entire station maybe? Move the station into the heart of the industrial estate?

The old alignment for finglas luas had 7 station stops. This new proposed route to have only 4 station stops. I wonder will the new route be more a straight route from Broombridge to Charlestown. Regardless it will be heavily congested from opening day.



The car park across from charlestown SC is not big enough for a Luas P and R. With all the apartments, houses, people driving in from N2 and m50 etc. The luas from Finglas to Charlemont will be crush capacity at peak times. They will have to keep buying 55 metre trams. Finglas to Charlemont line will be a huge success.

CatInABox wrote: »

Reading the tender, they mention "four new stops and a new park and ride". Depending on how you interpret that, it's possible that the "new park and ride" is a fifth stop itself, on the far side of the M50.

Would have thought that a park and ride also has to be a stop so dont think there will be five stations.

Also the tender document mentions a new terminus at Charlestown which I can only presume means right in front of the shopping centre and not further north in a field outside the M50, an area which is commonly known as Coldwinters.

AFAIK the area now referred to as Charlestown only got that name after the shopping centre was built and the area has effectively assumed the name Charlestown after the shopping centre itself. I think older maps used to list the area as Meakstown but now Charlestown is commonly used and refers to the SC and the areas around it.

In any case I think a P&R right outside Charlestown SC would be choked with traffic and people wont be able to get in/out of it quick enough, thus defeating the purpose. Also theres a big chuck of land there between Joe Duffy motors and the McDonalds/KFC. That land had or else still has planning permission for a retail park with the likes of Woodies. Halfords, etc in it which when built will bring more traffic into the area. The road outside Charlestown SC is already busy and suffers from tailbacks on it at rush hour as it is. If they stick a P&R there too it would only get a lot worse imo.

Yeah that grass verge is pretty wide and runs all the way up the side of Noyeks Newmans and fronts onto the N2 so definitely good space there for two tram lines.

The problem is that road Charlestown Place is already jammers at rush hours and putting a park and ride there is only going to make the traffic even worse. Theres two industrial estates either side of the N2 at that point with alot of employees coming and going as well as a lot of trucks serving the entire Parcel Motel/Nightline operation as well as UPS there too.

Ive only ever used the Red Cow P&R a couple of times but it works because you've direct access to it right off the N7 and when you park up its generally a 2-3 minute walk to the Luas stop. If the Finglas extension P&R goes in front of Charlestown Shopping Centre I could see traffic backed up in the mornings to turn right to get into it and then you might have to go up three or four stories to find a space, then a walk and a lift back down to ground floor and walk to the Luas station. If all that took you 10 or 12 minutes you'd soon be thinking that if you were in your car you'd be in Phibsoro before the tram has even left the station at Charlestown.

If the powers that be want people to switch modes mid journey then the switch over has to be as fast and as seamless as possible. No point in people switching from car to tram if their journey time goes up instead of down. Eventually congestion charges might take the choice away from many people but its still pretty crap if peoples commute takes longer than it would if the Park and Ride was located in a more accessible location such as north of the M50.

CatInABox wrote: »

Reading the tender, they mention "four new stops and a new park and ride". Depending on how you interpret that, it's possible that the "new park and ride" is a fifth stop itself, on the far side of the M50.

It says two bridges, assuming one is over the canal/railway and the other crossing the Finglas Road, there is no bridge to cross the M50.

CatInABox wrote: »

Hmm. I'd say one over the canal and one over the Tolka valley is more likely, with the Luas following the Finglas road.

All the info does look like it's the city side of the M50. Disappointing if true, hopefully a public consultation can point out that's going to be pointless.

There will be a public consultation happening this first quarter 2020. So i suggest people here copy and paste their points into an email to them.

SeanW wrote: »

I disagree. A bus is simply not going to tempt people out of their cars the way a train or tram will.

I also disagree that there should be any particular focus on who is using the trams - the priority IMO should be first and foremost to have a public transport system that is useful to PEOPLE no matter their lifestyle. My priorities would be that such an extension should:
1) Offer enough capacity for all the people who need/want to use it.
2) Be useful to as many people as possible.

Admittedly I've only been to Charlestown once or twice but I would share concern about using the area as a Park and Ride. It seems like the area has enough usage with the shopping centre and local residential areas, that is developed as part of the city. Bringing lots of long distance traffic in there does not strike me as a good idea for either the locals or the P&R users.

The best place for an N2 P&R would be actually off the N2, not beyond it, the whole point of park and ride is that you don't come into the city and avoid the worst congestion, bringing drivers in past the M50 to get the trams isn't really compatible with that. The space in Charlestown should be for the people who live/work/shop there, not through travelers and the resulting congestion would ill suit those changing there at the P&R. The line should be extended beyond the M50 if they want Park and Ride.

Sounds great but easier said than done. Getting beyond the M50 is going to be extremely expensive. The M50 is well above the ground level either side so going over it would involve rising the track from a long way back which is going to be very difficult given the amount of development around Charlestown SC. Going under requires a very expensive tunnel and again limited space for a portal at Charlestown. How many millions do we have to spend for people who think buses aren't good enough for them.

Again, let's not pretend hundreds of people each driving 10km to get a tram then driving 10km back is eco friendly. Buses bringing all those people those journeys in the same vehicles is far more efficient and economical. We also want to avoid an existing Green Line situation where one line is expected to serve too big an area with the result being people can't get on. The industrial estate is earmarked for substantial residential development, we shouldn't be facilitating development further out and eating up pt capacity which urban regeneration will rely on.

Or could they not just build the park and ride the far side of m50 and put in a pedestrian bridge to bring people over to the last stop on the city side ?

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah had noticed it is down to 4 stops from 7. I think that makes sense for a 4km route.

I wonder where the Luas might join onto the N2 after going through the Dublin Industrial estate? Opposite where Premier Square apartments are now?




If a P&R were to go in that car park in front of Charlestown SC it would have to be at least 4 or 5 stories high to handle capacity. Even then that might not be enough. Also you could see traffic backed up in the mornings just to get into a Charlestown P&R from off the N2. P&Rs need to be seemless, if people have to queue 5 or 10 minutes at traffic lights just to get into it then they'll give up and just drive anyway.

Much better idea would be to run the Luas 500m further north with a terminus and P&R just off the N2 north of the M50. Theres lots of land there at Coldwinters that only has the odd horse grazing on it. Also the N2 at that specific section is six lanes wide so there is space for 2 Luas tracks. A P&R located there would allow commuters from Ashbourne and beyond drive straight into off new slip roads off the N2.

Far too much like commonsense. the way these idiots do everything, that will never be done

SeanW wrote: »

Not sure where to start with this tbh.

Firstly, Ashbourne already has buses, so I'm not sure how your proposal is really any different to what is in place now. Second, anyone who proposes that more buses into Dublin City Centre will help ANYTHING, very likely has not been there (at peak times at least) in some time. The Luas Cross City made a complete mess of it, creating severe pinch points of tram/bus congestion in particular around Trinity College, I have very distinct memories of spending 2+ hours each way each day on a bus for a short journey, with a good chunk of that (1/2 hour each way each day) trying to get around the mess at College St/Westmoreland St/D'Olier St. Dublin is FAR beyond the point where fooling around with buses is going to do any good. Dublin needs things like the Metro and the Dart Underground. Yesterday. Thirdly (to the extent that you are proposing anything new) your solution only makes sense to people who live in or near Ashbourne, a P&R on the new line itself would serve anyone along or near the N2. Fourth, there would be no need for new tunnels or a massive new gradient to cross the M50, because the M50 runs in a cutting under the R122. A new Luas line could take the R104 St. Margarets Road, turn onto the R122, cross the M50 on that bridge and end in green space just off the N2 and outside the city. Fifth and finally, your concern about P&R users "eating up pt capacity which urban regeneration will rely on" can be addressed by making sure that the capacity of thing is sufficient to serve all its users, now and for the foreseeable future.

Your rant about buses need to be reassessed in terms of BusConnects which will bring in big changes. If BusConnects are Luas Finglas we're in place, there would be less cars and buses on the road which would really improve bus journey times from Ashbourne.Taking the road bridge over the M50 for Luas is going to be met with significant opposition, much like closing Dunville Ave. Getting to the other side of the M50 would certainly be the source of significant cost and/or delay.

We really need to stop looking at Luas as the solution to all our problems. Luas is great but it has limitations and shouldn't be serving areas 10km away. Talk about making sure that the capacity is sufficient to serve all its users, now and for the foreseeable future means recognising this reality. If Luas Finglas opened in the morning, it would attract significant numbers of users. It is probably a decade from opening and the population is growing. Lots of apartments at Charlestown SC and Dublin Industrial Estate should be the next Cherrywood (ironically the current Green Line which was to serve Cherrywood is approaching breaking point before any apartments are finished there).