Water charges for excessive usage

is_that_so · 18-07-2019 8:43am

odyssey06 wrote: »

Have you a source for this job creation statement?
Wasn't one of the rationales for IW that by consolidating the water services into a single national body meant less staff would be needed to run the services?

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-cutting-1200-jobs-2372307-Oct2015/

IRISH WATER IS due to reduce its number of employees by 1,200 over the next six years. Three hundred jobs were cut since last year, making the number 1,500 in total. A spokesperson for the utility said the measure is part of a larger business plan agreed when Irish Water was set up. The company is hoping to save €1.1 billion in “operational savings” by 2021.

The IW part was, but it didn't allow for the lazy lumping in of c 2500 LA staff on top of it. The reduction in that is where their savings will come but we'll have to wait till 2025 to see that fully implemented.

is_that_so · 18-07-2019 8:48am

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

We live in a house with a shared water main.

Same as very other house on our road.

They tried to fit meters anyway and when I asked them why they were wasting taxpayers money they told me they were just following orders.

So I got onto my local SF counselor and had the installations stopped.

Unless they can specifically measure your household usage, there’s no way they’ll be able to bill you for it. That’s their problem though.

It seems some people are itching to hand more of their hard earned cash over to the government to be wasted on god knows what and that should be their prerogative but they won’t get a cent out of this household without significant tax reductions in other areas.

We already fought that battle and won but we’ll fight it again if we have to. We’re already paying far too much tax for far too few services and IW is nothing but an elaborate con-job on the nation.

You do realise that this proposal is for excess usage and not general water charges? If you're not likely to be in that boat it doesn't affect you an even if you happen to be, reducing your usage to below that limit means no need to engage with IW.

Limpy · 18-07-2019 8:50am

The first start should be a referendum on Privatisation of Irish water.

The moment bills start coming in the door people will mobilise again.

FG and FF are beating a dead horse at this stage if they think they can sneak them back in.

Plumbthedepths · 18-07-2019 8:54am

As my granny used to say "God loves a trier".
Water charges by the back door, how transparent.

NIMAN · 18-07-2019 8:56am

Is everyone going to be treated the same this time round?

I had a meter installed outside my house, but what about all those that didn't due to protests? Are these properties going to get meters installed, or are those people who cause trouble and perhaps waste water get away with it while the rest of us pay?

The Bishop Basher · 18-07-2019 8:58am

is_that_so wrote: »

The IW part was, but it didn't allow for the lazy lumping in of c 2500 LA staff on top of it. The reduction in that is where their savings will come but we'll have to wait till 2025 to see that fully implemented.

Not really savings in the true sense though. These were additional payroll costs that had nothing to do with IW and should never have been included. It would be a bit like buying a flash car you can't afford and selling it a few weeks later to make "savings". I can think of numerous ways they could make genuine savings to the benefit of the tax payer but of course that's never in the game plan.

is_that_so wrote: »

You do realise that this proposal is for excess usage and not general water charges?

For now.. But we all know that this government wants to introduce water charges and will do so by whatever sneaky means necessary. This is just the beginning of that process and needs to be cut off at the head now.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 18-07-2019 9:02am

Surely everybody is opposed to excessive usage. But how are people responsible for leakage. If the leakage was obvious they’d fix it. Otherwise it’s a buried pipe.

The Bishop Basher · 18-07-2019 9:04am

NIMAN wrote: »

Is everyone going to be treated the same this time round?

No

NIMAN wrote: »

I had a meter installed outside my house, but what about all those that didn't due to protests? Are these properties going to get meters installed

No

NIMAN wrote: »

or are those people who cause trouble and perhaps waste water get away with it while the rest of us pay?

By causing trouble do you mean exercising their lawful right to peaceful protest ?

Yes they will protest.

Look, you choose to be a sucker and pay that's your call.

Many of us see no reason to follow your lead and will stand up and fight this as we did last time.

odyssey06 · 18-07-2019 9:05am

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Surely everybody is opposed to excessive usage. But how are people responsible for leakage. If the leakage was obvious they’d fix it. Otherwise it’s a buried pipe.

And also, surely a leak would account for a helluva lot more water than > 1.8 times the household average?

is_that_so · 18-07-2019 9:05am

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

Many of us see no reason to follow your lead and will stand up and fight this as we did last time.

For people to waste water?

is_that_so · 18-07-2019 9:07am

odyssey06 wrote: »

And also, surely a leak would account for a helluva lot more water than > 1.8 times the household average?

It needs to be both and IW have acknowledged that work has to be done on leaks.

The Bishop Basher · 18-07-2019 9:09am

is_that_so wrote: »

For people to waste water?

The vast majority of people don't waste water.

Leaks are a far greater issue and while meters may help with finding them, charging people won't make them go away.

Boggles · 18-07-2019 9:12am

I assume they have a new spin team.

I miss this lady, the original Kellyanne Conway.

Fúck me, could she belt out an alternative fact.

is_that_so · 18-07-2019 9:17am

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

The vast majority of people don't waste water.

Leaks are a far greater issue and while meters may help with finding them, charging people won't make them go away.

It could be leaks, it may not. And the article I linked to mentions that issue as well. This approval will allow them to charge if required.

The Bishop Basher · 18-07-2019 9:22am

is_that_so wrote: »

It could be leaks, it may not. And the article I linked to mentions that issue as well. This approval will allow them to charge if required.

I don't trust this government and so they don't have my approval.

As has already been pointed out.. none of the original issues have been addressed.

And a referendum on the ownership of IW is just another red herring.

We're never going to let them sell it off anyway. We don't need a vote to know that.

People need to remember where the real power lies.

If the water protest showed us anything it was that people have to power to say no.

Berserker · 18-07-2019 9:35am

Inevitable that this was going to happen after the increase in the green vote in the last election. Water charges were always going to be top of their list.

kippy wrote: »

I think a few things need to be nailed down:
1. Irish Water (or the provision of water within Ireland) should never be privatised.
2. The bodies that deliver this service to the state should be run as efficiently as is possible.

Why should IW not be privatized? Hard to see IW being run efficiently if it is not privatized.

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

So I got onto my local SF counselor and had the installations stopped.

How did the councillor get the installation stopped?

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

Unless they can specifically measure your household usage, there’s no way they’ll be able to bill you for it. That’s their problem though.

Place a flat charge on every home that did not support the installation of a water meter. Preventing the installation of that meter was not a legal action.

JohnnyFlash · 18-07-2019 9:37am

Great news. A charge for consumption of this precious commodity is much needed. Irish Water is no different than the ESB or Gas Networks Ireland. A charge will ensure that monies are raised to allow for continued investment in our water infrastructure, and that it doesn’t become the first thing to be cut from the general taxation wish list as it's ‘out of sight, and out of mind’ infrastructure.

Plumbthedepths · 18-07-2019 9:44am

Berserker wrote:

Place a flat charge on every home that did not support the installation of a water meter. Preventing the installation of that meter was not a legal action.

What about those that cannot be metered for various reasons and those that did not oppose a meter but simply hadn't one installed? Can you link to the legislation where it said it was illegal to oppose the installation of a meter?

odyssey06 · 18-07-2019 9:44am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Great news. A charge for consumption of this precious commodity is much needed. Irish Water is no different than the ESB or Gas Networks Ireland. A charge will ensure that monies are raised to allow for continued investment in our water infrastructure, and that it doesn’t become the first thing to be cut from the general taxation wish list as it's ‘out of sight, and out of mind’ infrastructure.

That's not what this is. Or is it? Do elaborate.

Are we all about to get a free allowance of electricity or gas based on average household use?

The Bishop Basher · 18-07-2019 9:45am

Berserker wrote: »

How did the councillor get the installation stopped?

You'd have to ask the councilor but the work stopped within 20 mins and rightly so. Installing 1 meter at the top of the road could ascertain if there was a leak in the area and work from there. Putting multiple meters across multiple houses was a complete waste of money by anyone's standards. Those meters could never be used for billing.

Berserker wrote: »

Place a flat charge on every home that did not support the installation of a water meter. Preventing the installation of that meter was not a legal action.

I didn't pay and I won''t be paying this time.

Did you claim your refund ?

And peaceful protest is perfectly legal.

If you think otherwise you are free to call the gardai :rolleyes:

K.Flyer · 18-07-2019 9:45am

The main cause of leaks and water loss is in the infrastructure under the roads, before it gets to peoples houses. Like many years ago with re-laying the gas pipework infrastructure, they need to re-pipe vast amounts of old mains pipework under the streets. That's where the excessive usage / loss is. Excessive usage via domestic properties is miniscule compared to mains leaks and this new idea is just a ruse to start charging on the existing meters.
But what about the thousands of houses and thousands of apartments with no meters?
They will be left out of all of this because there is no way that they can calculate with any degree of accuracy the consumption in an individual property without a meter, especially if the entire block or road have no meters..
Attempting to impose charges on half the country because they have meters and then make up figures for the rest is unacceptable and should not be tolerated.
As has been said above already, this government seem to move from one financial disaster to the next.
People still consider Irish Water a fiasco and it is still fresh in their minds the utter waste of financial resources and gobsh!tery surrounding it.

Boggles · 18-07-2019 9:51am

The memories are flooding back.

Remember this bumbling idiot.

200k a year plus bonuses.

Got a €570,000 retirement package after 3 years of absolute and utter incompetence.

Necks like a Jockeys bollíx lecturing people about wastage!

ELM327 · 18-07-2019 9:51am

I was opposed to Irish Water last time and I am opposed to this now.

I do however believe we should all pay for water, not the stuff that falls from the skies but the service of purifying it and delivering it to your tap.

The reason I was against it was twofold:

1- Everyone should pay for water, no exemptions for the neaveaux riche on the dole getting hap
2- It should be privatized, government quangos don't work well in Ireland.

Have "Irish Water" in charge of the distribution network, and allow a number of water supply companies to resell water on to end users. Like other utilities (gas, electricity etc).

klaaaz · 18-07-2019 10:05am

Have they stopped giving 66% of the motor tax to IW? (along with the LPT and the VAT portion which was hiked years ago). Stop that carry on along with fixing the leaks first and crack down on the perks within IW and then water charges might be acceptable. Oh, am wondering how's the progress in the Siteserv inquiry?(another IW scandal which FG has kicked down the road)

Boggles · 18-07-2019 10:10am

ELM327 wrote: »

2- It should be privatized

No it shouldn't and for several reasons.

The main one being they are trying to mimic the English setup. Which has been without doubt an absolute failure and in all likely hood will have to be dismantled and brought back under public ownership.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/even-the-tories-should-admit-that-its-time-to-renationalise-the-water-companies/

They promised to bring efficiency. Instead they have brought unsustainable levels of debt that, one way or another, the public will have to redeem. Researchers at Greenwich University say that in the past decade, the nine companies have made £18.8 billion of post-tax profits. Far from using the money to make the water system better, they have paid out £18.1 billion in dividends, and financed investment through loading £42 billion of debt on to consumers.

The university estimates the English are paying £2.3 billion more a year in water and sewerage bills than if the utility companies had remained in state ownership. These costs might have been bearable in good times, but as the Brexit-induced fall in the pound pushes real wages back down again, the prices of water, gas and electricity are bound to be political issues. Customers may not be overly keen to subsidise shareholders and lavishly overpaid managers.

Can you imagine where we would be in 20 years time given our regulation and penchant to pay way over the odds for everything.

Berserker · 18-07-2019 10:17am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

What about those that cannot be metered for various reasons and those that did not oppose a meter but simply hadn't one installed? Can you link to the legislation where it said it was illegal to oppose the installation of a meter?

The Water Services Act 2007 will answer your last question. Meters can be installed for those who didn't have one installed. Someone will need to come up with a solution for those who cannot be metred. I'd charge them a fixed amount every month.

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

I didn't pay and I won''t be paying this time. Did you claim your refund ?

Never got round to claiming my refund now that you mention it.

cameramonkey · 18-07-2019 10:20am

Tommy Kelly wrote: »

No. It's our fault that water is being lost on public mains pipes. Decades upon decades of ignoring & not updating the water system has led to leaks on dirty, rotten & dangerous to our health, lead pipes.

Irish water have been for the past several years now upgrading these pipes in various parts of the country.

It's also worth noting that thousands of jobs have been created as a result of the ongoing upgrades to our water system.

How should IW be sanctioned for this loss of water. Maybe a 500 euro fine for every 213,000 lost through leaks? If IW are not sanctioned for this wastage of water then they will just continue to let water flow away , there has to be some sort of fine, they have now had a few years to deal with the problem but dont seem to do much about it.

Cryptopagan · 18-07-2019 10:21am

Berserker wrote: »

The Water Services Act 2007 will answer your last question. Meters can be installed for those who didn't have one installed. Someone will need to come up with a solution for those who cannot be metred. I'd charge them a fixed amount every month.

If they try roll out meters to all the non-metered homes and/or charge non-metered homes regardless, they will just run-in to all the same problems they did the first time around: opposition to installing the meters, and mass nonpayment. They won’t make those mistakes again. They will start out trying to charge metered households deemed to be overusing, and try normalize the charge that way

Plumbthedepths · 18-07-2019 10:29am

Berserker wrote:

The Water Services Act 2007 will answer your last question. Meters can be installed for those who didn't have one installed. Someone will need to come up with a solution for those who cannot be metred. I'd charge them a fixed amount every month.

Why not link the section? Hardly fair or ethical to charge someone for something that cannot be quantified at present.

Boggles · 18-07-2019 10:32am

I see they commissioned a survey (insert cost here) asking people about their water use.

One of the reason givens for spending 100s of millions in metering was we get accurate data on use.

Why are they depending on some nonsensical abstract survey for their figures?

18-07-2019 10:36am

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

Leaks are a far greater issue and while meters may help with finding them, charging people won't make them go away.

It would, if the fees charged were ringfenced and used solely for improvements on the water infrastructure. Would people have an issue if this was the case?

18-07-2019 10:38am

Boggles wrote: »

I see they commissioned a survey (insert cost here) asking people about their water use.

One of the reason givens for spending 100s of millions in metering was we get accurate data on use.

Why are they depending on some nonsensical abstract survey for their figures?

Because 10's of thousands of people didn't have anything installed. You can't refuse to get a meter installed on your property then turn around and use that as a stick to beat the government with.

cameramonkey · 18-07-2019 10:41am

Deleted User wrote: »

Because 10's of thousands of people didn't have anything installed. You can't refuse to get a meter installed on your property then turn around and use that as a stick to beat the government with.

People living in apartments. dont have water meters, how can they be billed for excessive usage? The biggest wasters of water are IW, we need to fix the pipes or fine them for the waste. They need to be make an example of if we are to persuade people that this is not just another tax.

Boggles · 18-07-2019 10:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

Because 10's of thousands of people didn't have anything installed. You can't refuse to get a meter installed on your property then turn around and use that as a stick to beat the government with.

You don't need every house in the country metered to get accurate data, you don't even need the majority of them metered.

But I'll tell you where you won't get accurate data, some wishy washy phone survery of 1000 people.

But this might blow your mind, I'll tell you why they have indulged in such folly.

Far easier spin some nonsensical survey then it is basic maths.

Publish the fúcking figures on usage and compare them to the rest of the EU and stop píssing on peoples legs and telling them it's raining.

Cryptopagan · 18-07-2019 10:43am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because 10's of thousands of people didn't have anything installed. You can't refuse to get a meter installed on your property then turn around and use that as a stick to beat the government with.

There were whole estates they didn’t install meters because of local opposition. It doesn’t always come down to individual householders.

Spanish Eyes · 18-07-2019 10:46am

Maybe they will end up adding a water levy to utility bills. That's tongue in cheek but stranger things have happened.

If they decide to start charging for overuse with those who were law abiding and did not prevent the installation of meters, the shoe will be on the other foot. Those who pay for everything will not stand for a two tier system.

firemansam4 · 18-07-2019 10:47am

Unless they do like they did with the property tax and start taking the charges from people at source then this will fail just like when they tried bringing in water charges the first time.

People will just mass boycott any charges and the moment they try and jail anyone you will see everyone out on the streets protesting again.

I wasn't against the charges per see the first time, but the way they have gone about it has been just one big waste of tax payers money at this stage.

K.Flyer · 18-07-2019 10:50am

Berserker wrote: »

The Water Services Act 2007 will answer your last question. Meters can be installed for those who didn't have one installed. Someone will need to come up with a solution for those who cannot be metred. I'd charge them a fixed amount every month..

Here is my issue with this, every property using mains (I.W.) supply Can be metered. There is always somewhere that a meter can be installed.
It doesn't need to have the easiest of access for reading/ inspection as they are rarely looked at unless there is a problem picking up the signal.
I.W. made it clear years ago that they had no plans to meter any apartments. They still have no plans.
From my own experience working in hundreds of apartments each year, you cannot impose the same flat fee on each of them because the occupancy levels can greatly differ, from a single person, to families, to the apartments where people only use them occasionally.
How would this work then with their First Leak Fixed Free programme?
Currently under the I.W. rules if you have no meter they will Not repair the leak, and this has been in place for years. I know people who paid their bills from I.W., had no meter, and were refused a repair. I.W. are a joke.
For the record, I have never had an objection to metered billing as long as it was balanced, fair priced and applied to everyone.
I abhore water wastage and have rang I.W. numerous times to report water leaks on the roads and footpaths.

InTheShadows · 18-07-2019 10:54am

I guess FG's spin merchants thought leaving it a couple of years and bringing charging in through the back door might work. I can't get over the stupidity of them tbh. They are without a doubt the most useless government we have ever had in my 46 years of life.

Berserker · 18-07-2019 10:57am

InTheShadows wrote: »

I guess FG's spin merchants thought leaving it a couple of years and bringing charging in through the back door might work. I can't get over the stupidity of them tbh. They are without a doubt the most useless government we have ever had in my 46 years of life.

They didn't. The looked at the results of the last election, told the electorate that they "got the message" and are using that change in the voting pattern to implement these changes. They've been waiting for an opportunity to implement these charges and the green vote has given them that chance.

18-07-2019 10:59am

Benedict wrote: »

The entire "excessive usage" fines system will collapse the moment even one person refuses to pay on the basis of unfairness.
Nearly half the IW customers have no meter so will not be fined. So the other half will pay? The Irish people won''t tolerate this unfairness.
IW are waffling about being able to monitor homes without meters - but the truth is, they won't be able. They can have suspicions, but they can't be sure who's using what in an estate if loads of houses don't have meters. And are they going to say "Hey you lot in No 54, we suspect you're using too much so here's your fine, now pay the fine or it's jail for you".

Do they think the Irish people are complete idiots?

They are bluffing. People with no meters are on a winner and it isn't fair to the people with meters.

The other half won’t have to pay. They will know if they’ve got a leak and get it fixed.

Plumbthedepths · 18-07-2019 11:00am

Berserker wrote:

They didn't. The looked at the results of the last election, told the electorate that they "got the message" and are using that change in the voting pattern to implement these changes. They've been waiting for an opportunity to implement these charges and the green vote has given them that chance.

That just leaves getting people to pay. ;-)

Cyclical Apocalypse · 18-07-2019 11:01am

It looks like this company has come up with a solution to measuring the water usage of apartments.

"The solution involves an ingenious method of recording the consumption at each water inlet by installing Water Quantifier (WQ) at each entry point. Record and Collect data from each quantifier and displaying it on Personal Display unit (PU) unit placed anywhere inside the apartment or Central Display Unit (CU) installed in common lobby. Each Display unit can be configured to support up to six Water Quantifiers per apartment."

https://www.iswimm.in/swimm

Boggles · 18-07-2019 11:04am

Berserker wrote: »

They didn't. The looked at the results of the last election, told the electorate that they "got the message" and are using that change in the voting pattern to implement these changes. They've been waiting for an opportunity to implement these charges and the green vote has given them that chance.

Let's do some basic maths, even your average Green voter could follow.

From Irish Water themselves.

Each day in Ireland, 1.7 billion litres of water is collected, treated and pumped around a vast network of pipes to homes, businesses, hospitals and farms.

The treatment process is a lengthy and complex one with up to seven stages that can take up to three days to make raw water suitable to drink.

Amazing. In reality though what it should say is.

1.7 billion litres of water is collected, treated and pumped around a vast network of pipes but before it gets to homes, businesses, hospitals and farms 730 million liters písses out of leaky pipes which we have no interest in fixing

odyssey06 · 18-07-2019 11:21am

The nit picker in me thinks it is unfair to charge for the excess water on the way IN (for treatment and supply) and way OUT (for disposal), if it's being used to water a garden or clean a vehicle... surely the average is more like 100%, 75% out or somesuch.

Berserker · 18-07-2019 11:34am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

That just leaves getting people to pay. ;-)

Shame someone has never come up with a way of getting people to pay for services and dealing with people who refuse to do so ......

Fanny Wank · 18-07-2019 11:40am

Presume all the people who say "enough is enough", complain about waste, say they'll go to prison etc also aren't paying their motor tax, property tax, self assessed income tax etc?

Or are they simply cherry picking and not paying the charge that they see no consequences of not paying?

Will there also be protests over increased carbon taxes or if income taxes ever rise again?

Twas the same with property taxes. People made "a stand" until collection was handed to revenue and all of a sudden there were consequences of not paying

Call me a cynic but ........

Plumbthedepths · 18-07-2019 11:43am

Berserker wrote:

Shame someone has never come up with a way of getting people to pay for services and dealing with people who refuse to do so ......

Plenty of debts go unpaid for many reasons despite mechanisms in place to deal with debt.
Charges were defeated before, should be interesting to see what happens this time.

suicide_circus · 18-07-2019 11:44am

is there still the fire and anger out there we saw during the recession to get boots on the street and protest this again? we shall see.

will the "green wave" we saw in the recent elections stretch to water conservation? we shall see.

BarryD2 · 18-07-2019 11:44am

emo72 wrote: »

Water must be privatised.

Suspect that's where we are ultimately headed and it'll be a direct consequence of the opposition to the state providing the service at a reasonable cost. And when it is privatised, if you don't pay the bill, you'll be cut off. That's the logical outcome of all this. The defeat of Irish Water will be a Pyrrhic victory.

Water charges for excessive usage

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