Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

miezekatze · 21-09-2020 1:14am

Apprenticeship wages tend to be low as you're basically 'paying' for your training out of your wages, and you can't expect a full wage either as you're not fully trained yet. I'm from a country where apprenticeships are a lot more common than here, they exist for office jobs etc too, not just trades. The rates you quoted look very decent to me for apprenticeship rates, in Germany for example 500-1000 per *month* would be standard depending on the type of apprenticeship. Of course you'll earn more after completing the apprenticeship.

smellyoldboot · 21-09-2020 1:22am

Quadrivium wrote: »

Let's get real, a trade is a decent wage but the job is not a profession, a qualified plumber on €800 per week fully qualified will probably never earn more even after 20 years. A University educated Engineer or Surveyor will be in a profession with a defined pathway for their career that will eventually lead to increased responsibility and salary which after the same 20 years will likely be €80k to €100k per year.

There are pro's and con's to both but let's not be kidding ourselves here pretending a back breaking trade is somehow superior to a profession that requires a University education because it's not.

I'm well aware of that tbh. I took the engineering route myself for just that reason but there's a trade-off involved and it depends on your priorities and what you want out of a career.

Like even including the apprentice rates a spark will spend the first 6 to maybe 8 years out earning an engineer (remember 4 years not earning in college). After that there's no comparison assuming the engineer is not useless.

Not everyone is geared for/would be capable of doing a professional degree either. If you haven't the head for it or even just prefer more hands on work the trades are a decent option.

Jim2007 · 21-09-2020 8:48am

Sonics2k wrote: »

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

Which lot of young people have you been speaking to??? I can't say I know a single young person that is as shorting sighted as you are suggesting..

BrianBoru00 · 21-09-2020 9:32am

Quadrivium wrote: »

That's nonsense. As someone who has done both there is simply no comparison.

A trade is good for some people because as you say it offers paid training and if you choose the right trade you might get relative job security but it has its limitation, trades can become very monotonous and they also have an earnings ceiling that is just above the average industrial wage plus working conditions are generally crap and hard on the body.

Career focused degrees such as law, engineering, IT, surveying etc. all offer interesting and challenging careers with defined career paths which offer increased autonomy and salary up to an over €100k in senior roles as well as benefits that simply don't exist in the trades. You also don't have to break your body physically humping tonnes of construction materials every day up to your late 60's when you retire....if you live that long

Come back in ten years and tell us all about that ceiling.

At that stage we'll be starting to feel the pinch from the crash. There simply won't be enough electricians, plumbers, carpenters.

In any case the earnings of good tradespeople is a lot higher than 40K. After 20 years a lot of them will have an employee as well as an apprentice or two and will have a business earning them 100K per year as well - Also offering increased "autonomy" running their own business.

To suggest that they are very monotonous is ignoring the fact that any job can become monotonous- many plumbers roles have expanded to included green energy projects 0 who knows where they ll be able to expand to in 20 years.

You've basically rubished "trade" careers by comparing the average conditions there with the best conditions in "professiona" careers

_Brian · 21-09-2020 9:38am

Sonics2k wrote: »

So, I'm currently looking at a career change. I've done a lot of management and sales work, but it's never made me happy and far too often the companies make cuts and job losses kick in.

With that in mind I thought long and hard and thought I'd check out doing a mechanics apprenticeship (at the age of 36). However, with Cork County Council announcing they're now hiring, I decided to check it out and read their information.

Link here

So after 4 years, you're finishing up on €23,000 p/a. Sure you can argue it's a trade, but how far can it really go. I'm hardly surprised that a lot of younger lads aren't bothering with trades anymore, it's a lot of back breaking work for sod all pay.

Sure, €23k a year is decent when you're 20 years old, but what about when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old? Surely the pay won't get much better, how are you expected to start a family or even consider buying a home?

Not going to comment about mechanics but any sparks I know that are recently qualified and decent are making really good money. It consider it the most robust trade regarding careers

21-09-2020 9:44am

eurokev wrote: »

....................
I can't emphasise enough the doors and opportunities a good apprenticeship opens up. It's far better than 95% of college courses imo....................

What's a good apprenticeship?
IMO the best apprenticeship is E&I and most of the the folk who go on to work at levels above tools in that game get further qualifications and they end up the same as the lads who just did E&I courses at college who never did the trade years.

noodler · 21-09-2020 9:47am

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

Mental, mental attitude tbh.

21-09-2020 9:48am

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

I think you might be cherry-picking this 'other work'.

I worked a few years in a Centra. I then partially lived off my savings from that minimum wage job while I did a year's internship on €20k. Company kept me on to start a training contract and my starting salary was €24k.

Ultimately I think the question is, is €29k a fair living wage for someone who has gone through the effort of learning and growing? I'd say yes.

21-09-2020 9:51am

Sonics2k wrote: »

..........

So after 4 years, you're finishing up on €23,000 p/a. Sure you can argue it's a trade, but how far can it really go. I'm hardly surprised that a lot of younger lads aren't bothering with trades anymore, it's a lot of back breaking work for sod all pay.

Sure, €23k a year is decent when you're 20 years old, but what about when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old? Surely the pay won't get much better, how are you expected to start a family or even consider buying a home?

Loads of mechanics leave the trade because the pay is terrible. There are tyre fitters earning more money then mechanics. If 30k/year doesn't tickle your fancy don't become a mechanic. Public service gigs would be handy compared to garage work in the real world also.

Ottoman_1000 · 21-09-2020 10:00am

You are not comparing like for like. Apprenticeships are generally aimed at 17/18 year leaving cert graduates who will actually earn a wage throughout their 4 years and when qualified will generally get a hefty pay increase depending on what apprenticeship they choose. Instead of the person whose goes to 3rd level, gets himself in debt for 4 years and is then walking into a graduate salary (average graduate salary is €23k currently)! So to say a lot of younger people cant afford to live off it and therefore don’t go down that path does not make sense. The reason younger people don’t go down the route is not monetary but they just don’t find the jobs attractive… if I had my time all over again I would have went ahead with my electrical apprenticeship when I finished school…

eurokev · 21-09-2020 1:45pm

Augeo wrote: »

What's a good apprenticeship?
IMO the best apprenticeship is E&I and most of the the folk who go on to work at levels above tools in that game get further qualifications and they end up the same as the lads who just did E&I courses at college who never did the trade years.

Yeah I did e&i - companies are crying out for people with practical experience

21-09-2020 1:57pm

eurokev wrote: »

Yeah I did e&i - companies are crying out for people with practical experience

To do what roles?
By practical experience do you mean wiring panels, fault finding, installing instruments and calibrations?

enricoh · 21-09-2020 2:12pm

I don't believe the pay rates stop people from doing apprenticeships.
I reckon the cyclical boom n bust nature of construction in Ireland would put more people off especially lads mid 20's on with commitments.

krissovo · 21-09-2020 3:05pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

With that in mind I thought long and hard and thought I'd check out doing a mechanics apprenticeship (at the age of 36). However, with Cork County Council announcing they're now hiring, I decided to check it out and read their information.

I got out of the mechanical engineering game at your age, no way would I consider it for a career change this late. Most the lads I trained with are either running their own independent garages, Service & fleet managers or selling windows & finance packages. Some have stuck it out and are now the crusty old timer and supervising the shop floor. We all have some scars from our time, backs, knees & skin conditions to name a few.

Also as a mechanic in this day and age you become a part replacer after a computer tells you to and more often than not these parts are placed where even a gynecologist would struggle to get them. Gone are days of rebuilding engines, gearboxes or pumps as the labor rate is too high plus in the world of electrification its a dying job.

aido79 · 21-09-2020 5:13pm

krissovo wrote: »

I got out of the mechanical engineering game at your age, no way would I consider it for a career change this late. Most the lads I trained with are either running their own independent garages, Service & fleet managers or selling windows & finance packages. Some have stuck it out and are now the crusty old timer and supervising the shop floor. We all have some scars from our time, backs, knees & skin conditions to name a few.

Also as a mechanic in this day and age you become a part replacer after a computer tells you to and more often than not these parts are placed where even a gynecologist would struggle to get them. Gone are days of rebuilding engines, gearboxes or pumps as the labor rate is too high plus in the world of electrification its a dying job.

It sounds like you're getting mixed up between mechanical engineer and mechanic.

smellyoldboot · 21-09-2020 5:17pm

aido79 wrote: »

It sounds like you're getting mixed up between mechanical engineer and mechanic.

Someone is definitely having you on if you're getting scarred hands/body parts and you believe you're a mechanical engineer in fairness.

aido79 · 21-09-2020 6:54pm

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Someone is definitely having you on if you're getting scarred hands/body parts and you believe you're a mechanical engineer in fairness.

And I definitely wouldn't be bringing my car to a mechanical engineer for a service or driving it across a bridge designed by a mechanic.

kippy · 21-09-2020 7:13pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh folks, please don't misunderstand me. I get that down the line the prospects are much better.

I'm just stating that the entry level pay for the position is very low. Just €30 more than the social welfare payment, and it's easy to understand why a lot of young people end up not doing a trade.

Your age is the main reason you are having an issue with this, but there's many people would bite your hand off to get onto a four year course, with barely a leaving cert (not sure if that has changed) with a set amount of money you earn per week, up until the point that you leave the course with a set salary and no debts.

There are massive waiting lists for some of the trades, maybe not some of the wetter/dirtier/harder work but thats more because of the nature of the job than the pay.

HoggyRS · 21-09-2020 8:50pm

I remember being in phase 4 in carlow IT getting paid 500 quid a week back in the day. Lived the high life , we laughed at the students going to college for free. Still think its good coin for an apprentice.

Aleece2020 · 21-09-2020 9:23pm

If you think apprenticeship rates are awful, just wait until you hear about the unpaid internships that University students do. You'll be beside yourself in shock OP.

Outkast_IRE · 21-09-2020 11:18pm

Aleece2020 wrote: »

If you think apprenticeship rates are awful, just wait until you hear about the unpaid internships that University students do. You'll be beside yourself in shock OP.

Your not wrong there , for all that's wrong with the construction industry in this country I don't think I have ever seen internships advertised. But alot of other industries that have startup tech based ventures think it's a God given right to have internships.

My cousin graduated with a master's in nutritional science a few years back and had to intern at a tech company developing a nutritional app . I thought it was ridiculous they should be outright banned , now she is talking about doing a conversion course in validation and again interning at the end of it. Crazy carry on

OscarMIlde · 21-09-2020 11:34pm

Green farmer wrote: »

Year 4 is just over 30k a year. Not bad if you've a qualification that you can take elsewhere. Compare that to going back to college and earing zero for the same time frame

You're getting paid while you learn and you have a great earning potential afterwards. It's a lot better than some other industries. The starting salary for Postdoctoral scientists in Ireland is just under 34, 000 a year, and that is after a four year degree, possibly a masters, and a PhD which is three-five years to complete. It would definitely be hard for the first few years but would pay off later.

Quadrivium · 22-09-2020 12:00am

OscarMIlde wrote: »

You're getting paid while you learn and you have a great earning potential afterwards. It's a lot better than some other industries. The starting salary for Postdoctoral scientists in Ireland is just under 34, 000 a year, and that is after a four year degree, possibly a masters, and a PhD which is three-five years to complete. It would definitely be hard for the first few years but would pay off later.

A PostDoc scientist must not have much value in the labour market then.
Graduate quantity surveyors are getting more than that straight out of university and would be on double that within 10 years.

A lot of people appear to comparing degrees with trades without considering that not all degrees are considered that valuable to the labour market.

A law degree and a training contract could set you on track for €100k career within 10 years but a degree in culinary arts is gonna leave you with a minimum wage job and no progression.

A trade is not comparable to a profession requiring a degree for numerous reasons, one being physical labour demands, this can literally destroy your body and leave you like a cripple before age 50. Then there's the wage ceiling, there is very little scope for increased wages once qualified, sure you can do nixers but you're never gonna earn as much as a Lawyer, Engineer or Business Professional.

In my opinion trade rates are crap and have barely increased in the last 14 years, the cost of living has increased so the wages should rise to match that at least. The same applies to in demand professions requiring a degree.

22-09-2020 12:13am

Quadrivium wrote: »

A PostDoc scientist must not have much value in the labour market then.
Graduate quantity surveyors are getting more than that straight out of university and would be on double that within 10 years.

A lot of people appear to comparing degrees with trades without considering that not all degrees are considered that valuable to the labour market.

A law degree and a training contract could set you on track for €100k career within 10 years but a degree in culinary arts is gonna leave you with a minimum wage job and no progression.

A trade is not comparable to a profession requiring a degree for numerous reasons, one being physical labour demands, this can literally destroy your body and leave you like a cripple before age 50. Then there's the wage ceiling, there is very little scope for increased wages once qualified, sure you can do nixers but you're never gonna earn as much as a Lawyer, Engineer or Business Professional.

In my opinion trade rates are crap and have barely increased in the last 14 years, the cost of living has increased so the wages should rise to match that at least. The same applies to in demand professions requiring a degree.

Outside of contract work or moving upstairs a lot of sectors have pretty low ceilings for earnings, especially outside of Dublin. In IT there's money alright but unless you want to do management stuff and/or live in Dublin it's not easy to get a well-paying secure job for the medium-long term.

Quadrivium · 22-09-2020 12:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

Outside of contract work or moving upstairs a lot of sectors have pretty low ceilings for earnings, especially outside of Dublin. In IT there's money alright but unless you want to do management stuff and/or live in Dublin it's not easy to get a well-paying secure job for the medium-long term.

The average salary for a real estate, quantity or building surveyor in Ireland is €74k, that goes up to around €120k once management level is reached.

Law offers salaries of around €70k within 5 years and €200k plus if you get to partner level.

Project Management and Engineering are both similar in salary to the above, then there's banking, accountancy and finance which also pay well.

There are some very well paying, secure careers available if you choose the right degree. IT is swamped with imported labour, the race to the bottom has begun in that sector and it will only get worse.

BrianBoru00 · 22-09-2020 12:18pm

Quadrivium wrote: »

The average salary for a real estate, quantity or building surveyor in Ireland is €74k, that goes up to around €120k once management level is reached.

Law offers salaries of around €70k within 5 years and €200k plus if you get to partner level.

Project Management and Engineering are both similar in salary to the above, then there's banking, accountancy and finance which also pay well.

There are some very well paying, secure careers available if you choose the right degree. IT is swamped with imported labour, the race to the bottom has begun in that sector and it will only get worse.

Not according to jobs.ie or payscale.com.

approximate figures from Payscale.com
Building Surveyor 32 k
Quantity Surveyor 40K
Senior Quantity Surveyor 66k
Electician 40K
Plumber 34K

Now if you go to scsi.ie you'll find an average salary of 70k odd but that survey is more likely to be aimed at the upper end of earners who are more likely to be in such organisations.
Similarly the payscale one - reviews more likely to be left for negative feedback so could possibly average them out to a Surveyor salary of 68K . . .

There is still ingrained snobbery towards trades which as I said earlier is leading us to a gaping hole where we won't have enough electricians, plumbers, carpenters, car mechanics etc.
Cars will still require the likes of brakes pads exhausts ,oil changes, DPF repair etc. etc. etc. so whlie car mechanic jobs are far more computer based there is still a requirement for them.

and plumbing / carpentry / electricians as well as car mechanics are not back breaking trades. It's physcial labour but its not hod carrying

Danny552 · 22-09-2020 12:41pm

Hi folks

I'm looking to do an electrician apprenticeship just turned 29 , i wasn't sure if i was to old or not but have talked to a few people who started in there 30s and even 40s so I'm not worried about my age now i know in the long run it will be worth it .

I was working in a career for what's involved the money wasnt bad but not much room to progress. I couldn't see Myself doing it for the next 30 years I worked as a alarm installer for a while which has made me want to become a electrician as only so far you can go with alarms .

I know the money isnt great for the first 2 years going by the apprenticeship website its 274.95 a week starting off. But I was left money a few months ago which has given me the opportunity to do an apprenticeship and not worry about the salary.

I'm looking into E&L but seems to be hard to get into, is it possible to go into it later on during a electrician apprenticeship?

22-09-2020 12:50pm

Danny552 wrote: »

...........
I'm looking into E&L but seems to be hard to get into, is it possible to go into it later on during a electrician apprenticeship?

You could do a level 6 instrumentation course after you qualify as an electrician.

Places hire lads with level 6 certs as Instrument Techs for cals etc etc... they obviously can't go at anything but extra low voltage stuff.... so an electrician that also has a level 6 in Instrumentation would be well qualified.

Quadrivium · 22-09-2020 12:54pm

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Not according to jobs.ie or payscale.com.

approximate figures from Payscale.com
Building Surveyor 32 k
Quantity Surveyor 40K
Senior Quantity Surveyor 66k
Electician 40K
Plumber 34K

Now if you go to scsi.ie you'll find an average salary of 70k odd but that survey is more likely to be aimed at the upper end of earners who are more likely to be in such organisations.
Similarly the payscale one - reviews more likely to be left for negative feedback so could possibly average them out to a Surveyor salary of 68K . . .

There is still ingrained snobbery towards trades which as I said earlier is leading us to a gaping hole where we won't have enough electricians, plumbers, carpenters, car mechanics etc.
Cars will still require the likes of brakes pads exhausts ,oil changes, DPF repair etc. etc. etc. so whlie car mechanic jobs are far more computer based there is still a requirement for them.

and plumbing / carpentry / electricians as well as car mechanics are not back breaking trades. It's physcial labour but its not hod carrying

The graduate rate for all surveyors is in the mid €30's, a chartered surveyor would be on mid €50's and senior surveyors would be earning in the €80k range payscale is totally useless as a guide for salaries. The upper end of surveyors are earning in excess of €100k. You need to do your research before contradicting people.

You can't have done much work in the trades if you think carpentry work isn't back breaking on a building site or if you think Mechanical work is handy.

Most trades offer crap conditions and mediocre pay, of course there will always be a requirement for trades people but the wage and conditions will have to improve if more people are to be attracted to them.
Hod carrying is hard work but again, nowhere near as hard or skilled as the trade of Bricklaying.

krissovo · 22-09-2020 1:22pm

aido79 wrote: »

It sounds like you're getting mixed up between mechanical engineer and mechanic.

Not quite, I was in R&D for the UK military, construction plant mainly but anything from Land Rover adapting to a fire truck, bomb disposal robots to remote control armoured D8 caterpillar used in mine clearance. We did our own spanner work

Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

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