Remote working public servants not entitled to take flexi time.

26-10-2020 1:41pm

kathleen37 wrote: »

Had you read the OP's original thread from April linked further up, you would have seen that they originally wanted to be off work receiving full pay.

They didn't seem keen to work from home, but wanted to do that rather than travel in to the office, which was an option for them. So it would appear that yes, they did request to work from home rather than travelling into the office.

kathleen37 wrote: »

I completely agree there is no need to insult the OP.

The issue is that the OP *is* receiving equal treatment as per their agreed practice in relation to the COVID pandemic.

It appears TOIL has been stopped for the duration of the pandemic for ALL of the OP's colleagues that are working from home.

As TOIL does not appear to be contractual and a work practice, then this is up to the employer in regards to how they implement it.

Luckily though, should the OP wish to continue to accrue TOIL, they have the option of returning to the office to work.

I find that very odd reasoning

Removing TOIL as a result of covid is a change to practice. One that only applies to certain people that have been restricted from going to their place of work by their employer. That is NOT in any definition, equal treatment.

The very fact that those still in the office can still accrue it, is a seperation of staff work practices.

The fact that your attitude to someone working from home as a result of medical concerns is "go to the office if ya want TOIL" flies in the face of our very own employers directions and guidance to staff.

The question that needs asking is simple, did the employer offer a change in practice that was clearly stated as 'work from home = loss of TOIL' on an optional basis and was that what the OP agreed to? The answer appears to be no.

A pandemic hit and people were told to work from where possible. Then those that are considered 'at risk' were specifically told not to enter the workplace on medical grounds. Following this we have had restrictions placed on us outside of the original agreements such as what the OP is now being subjected to.Thats a change in accepted practice without agreement.

None of that means I dont understand why TOIL has been removed, none of it means I dont understand the realities of the situation but if we continue to stand by and adopt the 'doesnt effect me so **** em' attitude, it wont be long before you find yourself divided and conquered.

Thats my opinion anyway as someone who has been hit by these new restrictions when his colleagues havent. 'All in this together' indeed

kathleen37 · 26-10-2020 2:13pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I find that very odd reasoning

Removing TOIL as a result of covid is a change to practice. One that only applies to certain people that have been restricted from going to their place of work by their employer. That is NOT in any definition, equal treatment.

The very fact that those still in the office can still accrue it, is a seperation of staff work practices.

The fact that your attitude to someone working from home as a result of medical concerns is "go to the office if ya want TOIL" flies in the face of our very own employers directions and guidance to staff.

The question that needs asking is simple, did the employer offer a change in practice that was clearly stated as 'work from home = loss of TOIL' on an optional basis and was that what the OP agreed to? The answer appears to be no.

A pandemic hit and people were told to work from where possible. Then those that are considered 'at risk' were specifically told not to enter the workplace on medical grounds. Following this we have had restrictions placed on us outside of the original agreements such as what the OP is now being subjected to.Thats a change in accepted practice without agreement.

None of that means I dont understand why TOIL has been removed, none of it means I dont understand the realities of the situation but if we continue to stand by and adopt the 'doesnt effect me so **** em' attitude, it wont be long before you find yourself divided and conquered.

Thats my opinion anyway as someone who has been hit by these new restrictions when his colleagues havent. 'All in this together' indeed

And you know what, were we not in the middle of a pandemic, I would have some sympathy.

But at the moment, with so many people out of work and the chances of finding a job slim, then sorry, I think it's hugely entitled to be moaning about something that will return to normal when covid is under control. Whenever that will be.

In the meantime, as per my advice to the OP;- file a grievance with HR. Let us know how you get on.

Addle · 26-10-2020 2:22pm

There’s no option to work up time I’m my department for anyone since the end of March.

Shane Fitz · 26-10-2020 3:01pm

[quote="Niner

First off, theres no rules against travelling, The government very specifically states that in the high court. Secodnly, your employer has no right to interfere with your movements off duty outside of the law and lastly, plenty of people have found themselves needing to get on planes for absolutely essential reasons.[/quote]

Niner.. i cant dig it up, but all PS/CS have been told since July if they do travel, yes its a personal choice, then they must account for the 14 day self isolating by way of additinal annual leave or unpaid leave.

26-10-2020 3:21pm

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Niner.. i cant dig it up, but all PS/CS have been told since July if they do travel, yes its a personal choice, then they must account for the 14 day self isolating by way of additinal annual leave or unpaid leave.

Yes, I know. I was the one that referred to it.

breezy1985 · 26-10-2020 3:24pm

pew wrote: »

My flexi stopped in March when it kicked off.

I have no problem with this. While I'm half in the office half out it doesnt bother me in the slightest that I dont have any flexi.

I dont have to commute as much which is far better for me, less time on public transport.

But everyone is different.

Also much less of a stigma attached to throwing one out in the toilet during work hours when you work from home

26-10-2020 3:29pm

kathleen37 wrote: »

And you know what, were we not in the middle of a pandemic, I would have some sympathy.

But at the moment, with so many people out of work and the chances of finding a job slim, then sorry, I think it's hugely entitled to be moaning about something that will return to normal when covid is under control. Whenever that will be.

In the meantime, as per my advice to the OP;- file a grievance with HR. Let us know how you get on.

So, you have sympathy for the barman that can't work due to covid and is on pup but zero sympathy for the op who is also facing a change in conditions as a result of covid? Both will return at the end of covid-19 so why only one and not the other? Fyi, my daughter found a job last week after being on pup since March.

I'm sorry but while it may seem trivial, covid has not suddenly resulted in the rule of law being binned. The op still has a claim. Just as people traveling and being made stay at home by their employer without any legal basis does.

Health guidelines, regardless of how logical, are not the remit of your employee to enforce through unapproved sanctions. And this is why at least 2 public sector unions are currently planning actions on behalf of staff. Ironically, those actions have been delayed due to covid restrictions so probable won't be looked at until it's over anyway but should hopefully result in people getting time back.

Just edit to add that there's currently active campaigns on publicjobs.ie as there have been since the last 'bash the public sector' campaign in 2008. Anyone that loses their job has my sympathy but that doesn't mean I should lose any of my rights

26-10-2020 5:09pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

tells me all I need to know. Look after yourself and **** the rest.

First off, theres no rules against travelling, The government very specifically states that in the high court. Secodnly, your employer has no right to interfere with your movements off duty outside of the law and lastly, plenty of people have found themselves needing to get on planes for absolutely essential reasons.

You berate any perceived insult towards the OP but then post this towards me?

Travel and self-isolation has absolutely nothing to do with this thread or with flexible working hours. If you want to discuss travel, start another thread.

And also, I'm one of the ones who has been working 10-12 hour days with no credit for the extra time, to "keep the lights on".

If my attitude was as you seem to think it is, then I would be clocking off the second my required hours were worked, and not a minute later.

You're not a departmental civil servant, niner - if I'm correct you're a doctor or medic of some sort? So you're don't know what you're talking about here.

Mr Meanor · 26-10-2020 5:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You berate any perceived slights towards the OP but then post this towards me?

Travel has absolutely nothing to do with this thread or flexible working hours. If you want to discuss travel, start another thread.

And also, I'm one of the ones who has been working 10-12 hour days with no credit for the extra time, to "keep the lights on".

If my attitude was as you seem to think it is, then I would be clocking off the second my required hours were worked, and not a minute later.

You're not a departmental civil servant, niner - if I'm correct you're a doctor or medic of some sort? So you're don't know what you're talking about here.

There may be a pandemic on but the working time act still applies.
Contact your union!

26-10-2020 5:34pm

My final word on this : The HR section of every department has the discretion to operate the flexible working hours scheme as they see fit, to meet their own department's business needs.

There is no "one size fits all" across the whole Civil Service, that some people seem to think there is. Flexible working hours remain a privilege, not an entitlement. They do not form any part of the terms and conditions of employment for the civil service. It was that way before Covid, and it will be that way afterwards.

Not every grade is on flexible working hours. They apply to HEO and below. APs and above have flexibility, but they do not accrue flexi leave.

HR sections can suspend / make local arrangements as they see fit, and they can operate in different ways to other departments. For example, someone up the thread said clocking has been suspended in their department since March. In my department we still have to clock in and out as if we were in our offices. Some departments allow 1.5 days flexi leave to be accrued, while others are still only allowed accrue 1 day. No one size fits all!

Should i complain loudly that I am being treated differently because I have to clock in and out, while someone in another department doesn't? No.

Because I'm not a bloody jobsworth like the OP, and I understand we're in the middle of a pandemic and I'm lucky that I can work from home and keep MY lights on.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 8:22pm

Mr Meanor wrote: »

There may be a pandemic on but the working time act still applies.
Contact your union!

I agree.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 8:26pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

So, you have sympathy for the barman that can't work due to covid and is on pup but zero sympathy for the op who is also facing a change in conditions as a result of covid? Both will return at the end of covid-19 so why only one and not the other? Fyi, my daughter found a job last week after being on pup since March.

I'm sorry but while it may seem trivial, covid has not suddenly resulted in the rule of law being binned. The op still has a claim. Just as people traveling and being made stay at home by their employer without any legal basis does.

Health guidelines, regardless of how logical, are not the remit of your employee to enforce through unapproved sanctions. And this is why at least 2 public sector unions are currently planning actions on behalf of staff. Ironically, those actions have been delayed due to covid restrictions so probable won't be looked at until it's over anyway but should hopefully result in people getting time back.

Just edit to add that there's currently active campaigns on publicjobs.ie as there have been since the last 'bash the public sector' campaign in 2008. Anyone that loses their job has my sympathy but that doesn't mean I should lose any of my rights

Agreed. My claim is definitely valid.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 8:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My final word on this : The HR section of every department has the discretion to operate the flexible working hours scheme as they see fit, to meet their own department's business needs.

There is no "one size fits all" across the whole Civil Service, that some people seem to think there is. Flexible working hours remain a privilege, not an entitlement. They do not form any part of the terms and conditions of employment for the civil service. It was that way before Covid, and it will be that way afterwards.

Not every grade is on flexible working hours. They apply to HEO and below. APs and above have flexibility, but they do not accrue flexi leave.

HR sections can suspend / make local arrangements as they see fit, and they can operate in different ways to other departments. For example, someone up the thread said clocking has been suspended in their department since March. In my department we still have to clock in and out as if we were in our offices. Some departments allow 1.5 days flexi leave to be accrued, while others are still only allowed accrue 1 day. No one size fits all!

Should i complain loudly that I am being treated differently because I have to clock in and out, while someone in another department doesn't? No.

Because I'm not a bloody jobsworth like the OP, and I understand we're in the middle of a pandemic and I'm lucky that I can work from home and keep MY lights on.

I disagree. Working from home should not be penalised. Staff working from home should have the same working conditions. Fair is fair.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 8:34pm

kathleen37 wrote: »

And you know what, were we not in the middle of a pandemic, I would have some sympathy.

But at the moment, with so many people out of work and the chances of finding a job slim, then sorry, I think it's hugely entitled to be moaning about something that will return to normal when covid is under control. Whenever that will be.

In the meantime, as per my advice to the OP;- file a grievance with HR. Let us know how you get on.

Equal conditions for all staff should be restored. Nobody really knows when this pandemic will really be over. It's anyone's guess.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 8:40pm

kathleen37 wrote: »

Had you read the OP's original thread from April linked further up, you would have seen that they originally wanted to be off work receiving full pay.

They didn't seem keen to work from home, but wanted to do that rather than travel in to the office, which was an option for them. So it would appear that yes, they did request to work from home rather than travelling into the office.

Separate issue regarding not having broadband previously. Please be fair.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 8:48pm

never_mind wrote: »

This.

Strongly disagree.

a_squirrelman · 26-10-2020 8:57pm

The OP has a cushy number and the attitude that goes with it.
I've had colleagues like this and sure enough it'll be his/her team that picks up the slack because for sure he/she will always do the bare minimum while being the loudest and most difficult.
Wouldn't last a month in the private sector.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 8:58pm

a_squirrelman wrote: »

The OP has a cushy number and the attitude that goes with it.
I've had colleagues like this and sure enough it'll be his/her team that picks up the slack because for sure he/she will always do the bare minimum while being the loudest and most difficult.
Wouldn't last a month in the private sector.

Total rubbish.

Karlos77 · 26-10-2020 8:59pm

horsebox7 wrote: »

Total rubbish.

Invalid

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 9:01pm

never_mind wrote: »

Hmmm.. I don’t think that’s the case. Working from home already lends itself to flexible life which is why it’s there. If it’s a case that someone can’t do overtime they inform their line manager. In the CS they would get away with saying no in most cases which is why it’s so attractive to work there.

From my personal experience a lot of people build up hours by presenterism rather than actual value of work done. Since managers can’t be as hands on, due to the nature of WFH, flexi time is forcing people to work their contractual hours (insane!).

This is a lot of BS IMO. Do your job, do your hours, and move into the private sector if you want better pay but longer hours and rarely flexi time!

If you say so

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 9:03pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Longer hours? The average working week is less in the private sector.

Think logically, there's far more zero hour contracts and part time staff in the private sector. I and a lot of public sector staff work more than 40 hours as standard. 42 hours is my working week for example. I worked 40 in the private sector albeit with unpaid overtime (salaried position, not hourly) and from what I can see there's a lot of places now offering 30 to 35 as 'full-time'.

Same with flexi time, it's becoming more and more common. Most of the large tech companies staff are on it.

Lastly, they are doing their hours. They are taking time off in leu of payment for extra hours worked aka overtime.

Again, it's a condition of the employment. Why should they just give it up?

Agree

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 9:04pm

Karlos77 wrote: »

Invalid

NA

jaffusmax · 26-10-2020 9:04pm

I am all for flexi-time for those working from home on the proviso they are electronically tagged and within 5 feet of their pc during office hours.

Karlos77 · 26-10-2020 9:09pm

horsebox7 wrote: »

NA

You are the Irish Trump...I would prefer to listen to Trump. ..the smell of horse maneure from your box is sickening

You are a disgrace to the civil service

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 9:37pm

Karlos77 wrote: »

You are the Irish Trump...I would prefer to listen to Trump. ..the smell of horse maneure from your box is sickening

You are a disgrace to the civil service

You sound like you are angry. Have you considered anger management?

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 9:40pm

jaffusmax wrote: »

I am all for flexi-time for those working from home on the proviso they are electronically tagged and within 5 feet of their pc during office hours.

May be challenging to achieve your criteria in a democratic republic.

Karlos77 · 26-10-2020 9:43pm

horsebox7 wrote: »

You sound like you are angry. Have you considered anger management?

Fake news

1hnr79jr65 · 26-10-2020 9:53pm

horsebox7 wrote: »

Due to unprecedented cv19 arrangements public servants including those working in the local authority sector are not entitled to take flexi leave while those who are office based are entitled to take flexi leave which is unfair.

I've had no job for most of the year, I would happily do your job under the current conditions you have outlined just to had a job. I would love to work from home and get paid, safe from potential covid interactions, comfortable in my own surroundings without other staff to bug me so I can work without distraction, still able to get some stuff done around house while working and not have to fork out for travel to work and lunches, can have nice prepped fresh food.

You seem to claim how its unfair it is compared to those who must attend office having a benefit without realizing or caring how unfair it is for those staff attending office having to risk more covid exposure, higher spending with travel etc.

Its no wonder a folks see the public service as a lazy number for many, a lot of greedy folks who make petty demands and throw tantrums when they don't get their way without consideration for others.

Please forward me your reporting managers details so I can take your role as you feel so aggrieved.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 9:55pm

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

I've had no job for most of the year, I would happily do your job under the current conditions you have outlined just to had a job. I would love to work from home and get paid, safe from potential covid interactions, comfortable in my own surroundings without other staff to bug me so I can work without distraction, still able to get some stuff done around house while working and not have to fork out for travel to work and lunches, can have nice prepped fresh food.

You seem to claim how its unfair those who must attend office having a benefit without realizing or caring how unfair it is for those staff attending office having to risk more covid exposure, higher spending with travel etc.

Its no wonder a folks see the public service as a lazy number for many, a lot of greedy folks who make petty demands and throw tantrums when they don't get their way without consideration for others.

Please forward me your reporting managers details so I can take your role as you feel so aggrieved.

You have my sympathies. However l believe conditions for remote working should be equal.

noodler · 26-10-2020 9:56pm

horsebox7 wrote: »

You have my sympathies. However l believe conditions for remote working should be equal.

It's been explained that you are operating on a false premise.

You should focus on being a good employee after causing so much trouble earlier in the year for refusing to work or work from home.

1hnr79jr65 · 26-10-2020 9:58pm

horsebox7 wrote: »

You have my sympathies. However l believe conditions for remote working should be equal.

And that is where you are wrong, you think by remote working you are missing out on flexi time, what about those going to office are missing out on working from home. I am sure a lot of those people do not want to be there and would prefer your position.

Why not swap with someone in office if you feel so strongly and it is an option?

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 10:24pm

noodler wrote: »

It's been explained that you are operating on a false premise.

You should focus on being a good employee after causing so much trouble earlier in the year for refusing to work or work from home.

Rubbish.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 10:24pm

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

And that is where you are wrong, you think by remote working you are missing out on flexi time, what about those going to office are missing out on working from home. I am sure a lot of those people do not want to be there and would prefer your position.

Why not swap with someone in office if you feel so strongly and it is an option?

Thanks for your advice

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 10:57pm

Perhaps remote working staff could have the same conditions they had before the unprecedented pandemic, which is more than likely going to be around for the foreseeable.

26-10-2020 10:59pm

horsebox7 wrote: »

Perhaps remote working staff could have the same conditions they had before the unprecedented pandemic, which is more than likely going to be around for the foreseeable.

its very hard to see yr case as genuine with the amount of effort you are putting into replies.

have you spoken to yr manager or yr hr

while the pandemic is ongoing, youve no case for looking for things to return to normal

thats all been said to you many times

Rodin · 26-10-2020 11:01pm

So many in the public sector think they're really hard done by...they need a wake-up call....

26-10-2020 11:03pm

Rodin wrote: »

So many in the public sector think they're really hard done by...they need a wake-up call....

so many in the private sector misunderstand how anything non-profit works

Sultan of Bling · 26-10-2020 11:05pm

There are some but i wouldn't say so many.

Not in the place i work anyway, but i will admit there is a couple when they start their bleating, i want to bury my fist in their faces.

horsebox7 · 26-10-2020 11:11pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

its very hard to see yr case as genuine with the amount of effort you are putting into replies.

have you spoken to yr manager or yr hr

while the pandemic is ongoing, youve no case for looking for things to return to normal

thats all been said to you many times

Yes. Thanks for your genuine advice.

relax carry on · 26-10-2020 11:57pm

How is this thread still going? The OP has displayed they have no interest in any of the advice/answers they have been given. They are waiting for someone to pop along and tell them that their moaning is justified.

27-10-2020 3:28am

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

I've had no job for most of the year, I would happily do your job under the current conditions you have outlined just to had a job. I would love to work from home and get paid, safe from potential covid interactions, comfortable in my own surroundings without other staff to bug me so I can work without distraction, still able to get some stuff done around house while working and not have to fork out for travel to work and lunches, can have nice prepped fresh food.

You seem to claim how its unfair it is compared to those who must attend office having a benefit without realizing or caring how unfair it is for those staff attending office having to risk more covid exposure, higher spending with travel etc.

Its no wonder a folks see the public service as a lazy number for many, a lot of greedy folks who make petty demands and throw tantrums when they don't get their way without consideration for others.

Please forward me your reporting managers details so I can take your role as you feel so aggrieved.

Are you seriously suggesting that working from home is a public sector thing? Seriously?

www.publicjobs.ie

has, is and will continue to recruit. If you didnt join between 2008 and now, thats entirely on you. Correct your error and apply

Nody · 27-10-2020 8:35am

Mod:
This thread is heading down the old "public vs. private" job rabbit hole for a while now; OP has gotten answers even if OP may not like them and the thread is going in circles without progress while generating an inordinate amount of noise.

Remote working public servants not entitled to take flexi time.

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