Advise Please Intermitting Fasting vs high Protein Diet

ConnKib30 · 03-05-2020 10:57am #1

Hi.
Any advise would be greatly appreciated. I am a male 35 and I am looking to loose some weight 1 stone roughly if possible. and I have tried out different diets etc. I have access to gym and cardio equipment at home. And I will be following a programme of weights and cardio but my downfall is my diet. Recently I have tried intermitting fasting and I can do very well on it for a few days but come one evening I can just get this urge and eat loads and loads of junk food just to surpress the hunger. I have being loosing weight on it but when the binge comes then the weight just yo yos up and down and really back to square 1. but I am wondering would it be better if I was to try and stick to high protein diet where I wouldn't be missing any meals and I would be having my Breakfast Lunch Dinner etc. I have being consistant with my training but its my diet has being the let down. Again any advise would br great

Alf Veedersane · 03-05-2020 11:21pm

ConnKib30 wrote: »

Hi.
Any advise would be greatly appreciated. I am a male 35 and I am looking to loose some weight 1 stone roughly if possible. and I have tried out different diets etc. I have access to gym and cardio equipment at home. And I will be following a programme of weights and cardio but my downfall is my diet. Recently I have tried intermitting fasting and I can do very well on it for a few days but come one evening I can just get this urge and eat loads and loads of junk food just to surpress the hunger. I have being loosing weight on it but when the binge comes then the weight just yo yos up and down and really back to square 1. but I am wondering would it be better if I was to try and stick to high protein diet where I wouldn't be missing any meals and I would be having my Breakfast Lunch Dinner etc. I have being consistant with my training but its my diet has being the let down. Again any advise would br great

As with any 'diet', the key is calorie control. For some, intermittent fasting works, for some it doesn't.

A high protein diet might work but it also might not work.

1g protein = 4 cals
1g carbs = 4 cals
1g fat = 9 cals

It doesn't have to be a thing...an 'X diet'. It just needs to be sustainable for you.

Where do you really struggle? Aside from the hunger? There was a reason you tried IF so where do you think you were going wrong before that?

j@utis · 04-05-2020 1:34am

Are you skipping breakfast or dinner when doing IF? Going to bed hungry would never work for me but I can easily "forget" breakfast until almost midday, later followed by nice big dinner.

ConnKib30 · 04-05-2020 8:27pm

skipping breakfast. like you I can easily miss breakfast but as the evening progresses I can get very hungry and just go to the press to eat something small and end up eating everything. I suppose when I do eat during the day I may not be eating enough either during the 8 hour period that I am allowed to eat on the intermittinting fasting diet window. like today for i.e I had no breakfast then at 1pm I had a turkey sandwich. 3 litres of water through out the day and then at 5pm I had homemade chicken curry for dinner. And just had a cup of tea here now 8pm and that will be it until 12-1pm tomorrow which I suppose when I look at it now myself that is not enough food intake for the day..

ConnKib30 · 04-05-2020 8:33pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

As with any 'diet', the key is calorie control. For some, intermittent fasting works, for some it doesn't.

A high protein diet might work but it also might not work.

1g protein = 4 cals
1g carbs = 4 cals
1g fat = 9 cals

It doesn't have to be a thing...an 'X diet'. It just needs to be sustainable for you.

Where do you really struggle? Aside from the hunger? There was a reason you tried IF so where do you think you were going wrong before that?

To be honest before I was good with my diet and didn't really do Diets just tried to eat clean for majority of the week.But I suppose then the weekend was the let down takeaways drinking etc and then come Monday be good again for the week.. But my training wasn't consistant either, But this time since lockdown Covid 19 I have been very consistant with the training but the diet part has gone out the window and its like I want a quick fix with the IT diet for a few weeks to loose some weight and then switch to a more sustainable diet and keep up the training with it.

Mellor · 06-05-2020 2:39am

ConnKib30 wrote: »

i.e I had no breakfast then at 1pm I had a turkey sandwich. 3 litres of water through out the day and then at 5pm I had homemade chicken curry for dinner. And just had a cup of tea here now 8pm and that will be it until 12-1pm tomorrow..

That's not enough food for 24 hours, especially if you are training. Doing that for a few days, it's no surprise you fall off the edge with a binge.

Plan you food a bit better. Find out when you burn in a day. And plan out a window that hits about 500 cals less than that amount.

Personally, I'd be eating at least 2 big meals during that time.

OmegaGene wrote: »

3 meals with 2 snacks and you should never feel hungry, try and eat the last meal around 6 or 7 pm and get 8 hours or proper sleep

It's possible ton lose weight slowly without feeling hungry.
But realistically, if you losing 1/2 a kilo a week, you are going to be hungry some of the time - and that's ok.

Blanchguy · 06-05-2020 6:51am

What about the 5:2 instead of intermittent fasting - means you only need willpower two days a week.

Mellor · 06-05-2020 7:50am

Blanchguy wrote: »

What about the 5:2 instead of intermittent fasting - means you only need willpower two days a week.

You still need will power 7 days a week with 5:2. Two days of fasting might give you more flexibility but it doesn't allow you to eat what ever you feel like.

Personally I think you need less willpower to cut your window by around 4 hours, compared to not eating for almost 60 hours.

Starlord_01 · 06-05-2020 8:31am

ConnKib30 wrote: »

skipping breakfast. like you I can easily miss breakfast but as the evening progresses I can get very hungry and just go to the press to eat something small and end up eating everything. I suppose when I do eat during the day I may not be eating enough either during the 8 hour period that I am allowed to eat on the intermittinting fasting diet window. like today for i.e I had no breakfast then at 1pm I had a turkey sandwich. 3 litres of water through out the day and then at 5pm I had homemade chicken curry for dinner. And just had a cup of tea here now 8pm and that will be it until 12-1pm tomorrow which I suppose when I look at it now myself that is not enough food intake for the day..

Have you tracked your daily calories versus and worked out your maintenance calories?

Seems like you need a bit more structure, so would recommended to begin weighing out and tracking your food. You can then do some meal prep so your diet is sustainable.

ILoveYourVibes · 15-05-2020 3:16am

They are both fads.

Alf Veedersane · 15-05-2020 6:59am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They are both fads.

I'm not sure you think how they qualify as a fad.

spodoinkle · 15-05-2020 7:16am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They are both fads.

IF has been about for years, hardly a fad

ILoveYourVibes · 16-05-2020 8:52am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I'm not sure you think how they qualify as a fad.

It's quite simple. The fact that they are trending in the media is not based on endorsement from dieticians and the mainstream medical community or evidence based science that is peer reviewed.

People follow them because they are trendy. They are popular. Sometimes celeb endorsed or media endorsed.

The only reason people lose weight is because they end up being hypocaloric.

And low carb diets often make the body eat it's own tissue inc muscle.

The optimum diet is just a plain old boring healthy diet that your GP or any dietician would tell you to follow.

Your body can't store protein and it can't take up more than it needs at the exact moment so ideally little and often is best for protein. (based on grm per lb of body weight and your activity etc)
Then long burn carbs partic early in the day...but no harm to have them in the evening partic if you plan to workout the next day on an empty stomach.

Low carb diets make your body eat muscle.

Intermittent fasting defeats the purpose of having protein at all tbh ...as your body can't store it.

The only reason people lose weight is because they are hypcaloric. But they are not sustainable. And then people gain it back.

Alf Veedersane · 16-05-2020 9:12am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It's quite simple. The fact that they are trending in the media is not based on endorsement from dieticians and the mainstream medical community or evidence based science that is peer reviewed.

People follow them because they are trendy. They are popular. Sometimes celeb endorsed or media endorsed.

The only reason people lose weight is because they end up being hypocaloric.

And low carb diets often make the body eat it's own tissue inc muscle.

The optimum diet is just a plain old boring healthy diet that your GP or any dietician would tell you to follow.

None of that makes either a fad.

Of course the main reason for weight loss is a caloric deficit but there are different ways of achieving it. Adherence is important which is why people try different routes....IF, low carb etc. For some, the "plain old boring healthy diet" is what they couldn't sustain. Maybe IF isn't for them. But people go down different routes to find something that helps them reduce caloric intake by default. IF might just be stopping them consuming that extra 'snack' at night and reducing intake by 500-1000 calories because of that one change.

IF is not a fad nor a trend. It's been around for a long time. Threads on it here going back 9+ years and plenty of people losing weight with it.

Any studies I've seen that show muscle metabolism were for stupidly low carb intakes. And even aside from that, it's not a direct correlation. It's one possible factor as opposed to being a primary factor.

Unless someone is dealing in extremes, there's no consensus that a "plain old boring healthy diet", whatever that is exactly, is more optimal.

And besides, "a plain old boring healthy diet" and IF are not mutually exclusive.

IF doesnt defeat the purpose of having protein at all. No one is eating around the clock.

ILoveYourVibes · 16-05-2020 9:18am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

IF doesnt defeat the purpose of having protein at all. No one is eating around the clock.

Bodybuilders are. People who want to gain muscle ..you better believe they are.

There is ZERO reason buy into these diets. Everyone who follows them is back to square one in like 10 yrs.

Alf Veedersane · 16-05-2020 9:23am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Bodybuilders are. People who want to gain muscle ..you better believe they are.

There is ZERO reason buy into these diets. Everyone who follows them is back to square one in like 10 yrs.

We're talking general population here. It's a bit like pointing to Michael Phelps diet to support that some people eat 120000 calories per day.

eoinob50 · 16-05-2020 9:24am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It's quite simple. The fact that they are trending in the media is not based on endorsement from dieticians and the mainstream medical community or evidence based science that is peer reviewed. IF is nothing new and hardly treading, it is a very effective way to manage calories on a controlled diet

People follow them because they are trendy. They are popular. Sometimes celeb endorsed or media endorsed.

The only reason people lose weight is because they end up being hypocaloric.

And low carb diets often make the body eat it's own tissue inc muscle. No it doesn't, any proof on this?

The optimum diet is just a plain old boring healthy diet that your GP or any dietician would tell you to follow. A typical GP knows as much about a proper diet as you

Your body can't store protein and it can't take up more than it needs at the exact moment so ideally little and often is best for protein. (based on grm per lb of body weight and your activity etc)
Then long burn carbs partic early in the day...but no harm to have them in the evening partic if you plan to workout the next day on an empty stomach.

Low carb diets make your body eat muscle. again no it doesn't. Body only breaks down muscle tissue once all energy stores are used which include - carbs AND fats, only then will it break down muscle

Intermittent fasting defeats the purpose of having protein at all tbh ...as your body can't store it. Again no, correct the body doesn't store protein beyond what is needed at the time but it doesn't magically digest the minute yiu eat it, and your body doesn't go catabolic in mere hours

The only reason people lose weight is because they are hypcaloric. But they are not sustainable. And then people gain it back.

If people are using extreme low cals whether it it a 'normal diet', IF, PSMF etc, then the problem is not the diet but the person for not implementing it correctly. All diets to be effective need to be calorie controlled, not a simple case of eat as less as possible or simply all healthy food.

eoinob50 · 16-05-2020 9:26am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Bodybuilders are. People who want to gain muscle ..you better believe they are.

There is ZERO reason buy into these diets. Everyone who follows them is back to square one in like 10 yrs.

I've dieted for a BB comp and yes BBers do eat the round of the clock but they still use these methods also, unless your jacked up 300lbs of muscle

ILoveYourVibes · 16-05-2020 9:32am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

We're talking general population here. It's a bit like pointing to Michael Phelps diet to support that some people eat 120000 calories per day.

Yes I know.

The general population don't eat 120000 calories a day. Please stop selling snake oil to people.

These diets are not healthy. And they certainly don't teach people HOW to eat.

People can't get all the macro and micro nutrients they need from them.

They have adverse affects on hormones.

Your liver produces an excess level of ketones. (ketosis) Excess levels of ketones have been shown to be dangerous for people suffering from pancreatitis. Its also been linked to compromised bone health and kidney stones. That is just the start.

Generally i would call ' a sensible diet' what the majority of dieticians recommend.

ILoveYourVibes · 16-05-2020 9:34am

eoinob50 wrote: »

but they still use these methods also,

Not the ones i know.

And they WIN.

And she is a she...not jacked up to 300lbs of muscle.

Alf Veedersane · 16-05-2020 9:38am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes I know.

The general population don't eat 120000 calories a day. Please stop selling snake oil to people.

Bizarre comment. I'm not selling snake oil to anyone.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

These diets are not healthy. And they certainly don't teach people HOW to eat.

People can't get all the macro and micro nutrients they need from them.

They have adverse effects on hormones

What about IF is not healthy? And how does it not teach people how to eat? How do you not get all the macro and micro nutrient? How does it adversely affect hormones

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Generally i would call ' a sensible diet' what the majority of dieticians recommend.

Which is?

As it happens, my diet is a plain old healthy one. I just find it odd that you're attributing all these adverse effects, mostly which occur in extremes, and attributed them to all non 'plain old boring healthy diets'

eoinob50 · 16-05-2020 9:42am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Not the ones i know.

And they WIN.

And she is a she...not jacked up to 300lbs of muscle.

Not sure what being a women has to do with it apart from they should eat a higher fat diet, or you going to argue that too.

I'll agree for competitive bb, and your looking for the icing on the cake.. the yeah stick to your 5/6 meals evenly spread out.

For average person with some muscle or not, I'll agree to disagree

ILoveYourVibes · 16-05-2020 9:48am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

What about IF is not healthy?

I don't know what this means.

As i said.

Your liver produces an excess level of ketones. (ketosis) Excess levels of ketones have been shown to be dangerous for people suffering from pancreatitis. Its also been linked to compromised bone health and kidney stones. That is just the start.

Which is?

Well interesting since you mentioned the general population before.

If i were training someone as part of the PARQ form i would ask them about their daily habits their health issues. Family history etc.

From their bmi and activity level I would be able to find out what calorie balance they need. I would be able to make recommendations of macros.

For example you would never recommend a low carb diet to someone with low blood pressure. If on a parq form they answer YES to that question I would know.

Intermittent fasting also reduces systolic bp.

That might be desirable in someone with high bp not someone with low bp already. That could be dangerous partic if they are going to workout.

BloodBath · 16-05-2020 9:51am

Your food cravings are most likely your body craving some nutrition that you aren't getting. This is often why people with weight problems feel hungry a lot despite eating a lot.

These fad diets are not providing your body with what it needs. Fasting and high protein are not the answer.

A good balanced diet providing as much vitamins and minerals as possible along with a boost from supplements is the way to go.

ILoveYourVibes · 16-05-2020 9:57am

BloodBath wrote: »

Your food cravings are most likely your body craving some nutrition that you aren't getting. This is often why people with weight problems feel hungry a lot despite eating a lot.

These fad diets are not providing your body with what it needs. Fasting and high protein are not the answer.

A good balanced diet providing as much vitamins and minerals as possible along with a boost from supplements is the way to go.

I agree with all of this. 100%

But supplements don't always do what they promise.The Australian Institute for sport has a good ABCD rating system for supplements. And cravings are sometimes poor nutrition but also addiction or a bad habit.

I understand though for some people they get them from point A to point B. But lifestyle wise they are not the healthiest.

Alf Veedersane · 16-05-2020 9:58am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't know what this means.

It means what about IF (Intermittent Fasting) is not healthy?

Most people who implement it are usually just reducing their eating window to ca. 8 hours. (Though time restricted eating is more accurate). It's not an overhaul of their actual diet. So how is it unhealthy? How does it mean it's not providing all the micro and macronutrients? How does it affect hormones?

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Well interesting since you mentioned the general population before.

If i were training someone as part of the PARQ form i would ask them about their daily habits their health issues. Family history etc.

From their bmi and activity level I would be able to find out what calorie balance they need. I would be able to make recommendations of macros.

Doesn't really answer the question but that doesn't matter

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

For example you would never recommend a low carb diet to someone with low blood pressure. If on a parq form they answer YES to that question I would know.

Again, we're talking about general population without underlying health conditions. Obviously those would have an impact on diet in particular circumstances.

ILoveYourVibes · 16-05-2020 10:12am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Again, we're talking about general population without underlying health conditions. Obviously those would have an impact on diet in particular circumstances.

Ask yourself this question. What age do most people start gaining weight?

I have seen this mistake a lot. Fitness people assume everyone is in their 20s.

Nope ..most people who come to PTs do so when these health issues have already arisen.

Same with most people who start diets. People start these diets because they have these health issues.

And how do you know who is the general population?

These diets are not healthy for the general population anyway.

Doesn't really answer the question but that doesn't matter

Ok 2000 cals for women 2500 for men ...30 % fat 10% protein ...60% carbs. Honestly though you have to know the persons age bmi activity level ...ask them general health questions and family history. Imagine suggesting keto to someone overweight at 45 with a family history of myocardial infraction?

You don't know who is general population. This is most people over 40 today.

In the US 44% of peopl over 50 have metabolic syndrome. (although low carb diets seem to help people with MBS ironically)

If you think the general population is 20 yrs olds with no health issues ..that is a small general population.

It means what about IF (Intermittent Fasting) is not healthy?

oh thank god ..i thought i had lost the ability to speak english for a moment!

Intermittent fasting increases cortisol levels.

If people are having their scheduled food in the evening and are overweight this negatively affects triglycerides.

It can cause imbalances in potassium or sodium.

Intermittent Fasting also damages the immune system. Yes in otherwise healthy people.

Getting a variety of macro and micro nutrients is harder in a smaller space of time. And harder still in an unbalanced diet.

Alf Veedersane · 16-05-2020 10:24am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Ask yourself this question. What age do most people start gaining weight?

I have seen this mistake a lot. Fitness people assume everyone is in their 20s.

Nope ..most people who come to PTs do so when these health issues have already arisen.

Same with most people who start diets. People start these diets because they have these health issues.

And how do you know who is the general population?

These diets are not healthy for the general population anyway.

Ok 2000 cals for women 2500 for men ...30 % fat 10% protein ...60% carbs. Honestly though you have to know the persons age bmi activity level ...ask them general health questions and family history. Imagine suggesting keto to someone overweight at 45 with a family history of myocardial infraction?

You don't know who is general population. This is most people over 40 today.

oh thank god ..i thought i had lost the ability to speak english for a moment!

Intermittent fasting increases cortisol levels.

If people are having their scheduled food in the evening and are overweight this negatively affects triglycerides.

It can cause imbalances in potassium or sodium.

Intermittent Fasting also damages the immune system. Yes in otherwise healthy people.

Getting a variety of macro and micro nutrients is harder in a smaller space of time. And harder still in an unbalanced diet.

Take the wheels off the goalposts. Now you're changing who the general population is?

I.F. doesn't mean people are necessarily eating in the evening. It doesn't mean they don't have a balanced healthy diet. It doesn't mean they can't get enough nutrients. In many instances it probably just means someone doesn't have breakfast. That doesn't mean that between midday and 8pm, for example, they can't have a plain old boring healthy diet.

And 10% protein is ~ 60g ? For someone whereby 2500 is for maintenance or even deficit ?

ILoveYourVibes · 16-05-2020 10:28am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Take the wheels off the goalposts. Now you're changing who the general population is?
I.F. doesn't mean people are necessarily eating in the evening. It doesn't mean they don't have a balanced healthy diet. It doesn't mean they can't get enough nutrients. In many instances it probably just means someone doesn't have breakfast. That doesn't mean that between midday and 8pm, for example, they can't have a plain old boring healthy diet.

Are you qualified to talk about this stuff?

And 10% protein is ~ 60g ? For someone whereby 2500 is for maintenance or even deficit ?

Yes ..general diet advice is not really adequate ..you need to talk to the individual.

Alf Veedersane · 16-05-2020 10:31am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Are you qualified to talk about this stuff?

Yes ..general diet advice is not really adequate ..you need to talk to the individual.

Am I qualified to say that you can get a balanced healthy diet in an 8 hour window and that 10% protein would be too low for a lot of average people?

Do you need a qualification for that?

And a PT qualification isnt a qualification in nutrition.

ILoveYourVibes · 16-05-2020 10:33am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Am I qualified to say that you can get a balanced healthy diet in an 8 hour window and that 10% protein would be too low for a lot of average people?

Do you need a qualification for that?

And a PT qualification isnt a qualification in nutrition.

I had a nutrition module.

Both terms!

Anyway Intermittant fasting or high protein doesn't really tell us much about what you are eating. You could eat crap within a 8 hr window. Or eat really healthy. Or you could eat proteins bars on a low carb diet and think fruit is the devil.

Advise Please Intermitting Fasting vs high Protein Diet

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