Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

mirrormatrix · 08-08-2013 5:06pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

As someone relatively new to Tri, it seems strange to measure drafting by meters rather than seconds, seeing as the benefit is gained by time distance you are behind somebody rather than meter distance.

For example, if racers are going at 45km/h, 8m back will gain you significant drafting benefit whereas going uphill, being 8m back will give you much less benefit. Seems more sensible to say you need to be 2 seconds behind.

It's much easier for people to judge (see when the person in front passes a fixed mark (telephone pole), then say "one hippopotamus, two hippopotamus" and if you're passed the pole by the time you've finished saying it, you're too close.

Doesn't address people going out to cheat obviously, but it's a lot easier for honest people to gauge in the heat of the moment

I'm not sure how this would help Shedite. Drafting marshals are on bikes so I presume that it is easier for them to judge by distance rather than time.

Any marshals that are at a fixed point probably won't see you for long enough to be able to accurately judge if you are drafting or not.

sconhome · 08-08-2013 5:14pm

promethius wrote: »

penalty board was empty at rosses point sprint at the weekend.

It should have been stuffed full of numbers.

From bare chests, through ridiculous drafting on the bike the whole gamut of penalties was on display.

What was disappointing is while this is a local club race, it is at these events enfocement of the rules are most important as its here that people test the waters, decide they like tri and go on learning bad habits.

P2C · 08-08-2013 5:54pm

amphkingwest wrote: »

It should have been stuffed full of numbers.

From bare chests, through ridiculous drafting on the bike the whole gamut of penalties was on display.

What was disappointing is while this is a local club race, it is at these events enforcement of the rules are most important as its here that people test the waters, decide they like tri and go on learning bad habits.

I agree re bare chests, I saw bare foot runners but not sure re drafting. Maybe down the pack but there was no bunching at the front end of the race. The top 10/15 were well spread out and there were big time gaps of the bike. I only saw the the gaps on the 2k out and back section and the top 15 were well spread out over 2k.

The race had two waves @100 approx per wave and a very wide range of standards.

Again I agree with your point re drafting and penalties and it doesn't matter what standard rules must be enforced. In fairness the TO did emphasise but unless the board is full with penalties nobody will pay a blind bit of attention.

I heard from a few lads that Loughrea had big packs on tight country roads and again lots of athletes of the same standard will be very hard to break up. Only one penalty for drafting and one DQ for crossing the centre of the road. Ironically trying to avoid a drafting pack by passing on the outside.

Be interesting to see if Lough Key go with waves this year as they always have a one of race in a sprint

Ceepo · 08-08-2013 10:32pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y26Ak7bAVUQ

No Drafting here

Are these called pace lines ?

BTH · 08-08-2013 10:39pm

Ceepo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y26Ak7bAVUQ

No Drafting here

Are these called pace lines ?

Looks all legal from that but not entirely clear.

What is clear is that gibbo needs to learn how to leave his bike shoes on his bike at dismount

sconhome · 09-08-2013 12:03am

BTH wrote: »

Looks all legal from that but not entirely clear.

What is clear is that gibbo needs to learn how to leave his bike shoes on his bike at dismount

He just had to be different from everyone else!

P2C · 09-08-2013 10:36am

A cyclist at 40 kph will cover 12 meters in approximately one second. By the time intervals on youtube that was a paceline. I am guessing a lot of people would of looked at the back end of that clip and thought they were drafting. That clip was a legal paceline based on the time intervals.

Maybe they should insist on a 1 sec gap between riders on the bike and focus on penalising the riders who jumps into the slipstream once a rider passes on the outside. Everyone should hold their line. My biggest gripe is lads that will purposely jump from the inside onto someone's wheel that is passing on the outside. That is blatant cheating

There an etiquette in Ironman racing and specifically paceline riding. Everyone takes a turn at the front. They can be strung out.

I don't think ITU really pay to much heed to drafting in age group racing. Its not their focus. They are more interested in ITU format and they are making the rules

pgibbo · 09-08-2013 10:50am

BTH wrote: »

What is clear is that gibbo needs to learn how to leave his bike shoes on his bike at dismount

I also need to have the shoes on the bike before I mount too.

Putting them on in T1 is a just silly

pgibbo · 09-08-2013 10:51am

Ceepo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y26Ak7bAVUQ

No Drafting here

Are these called pace lines ?

That was a damn fast part of the course too. Speeds in excess of 40kph for most people.

mloc123 · 09-08-2013 12:10pm

pgibbo wrote: »

I also need to have the shoes on the bike before I mount too. Putting them on in T1 is a just silly

Swim with them on..

Mr Tango · 11-08-2013 7:39am

Lots of action on the CK Tri board yesterday. Good few drafting penalties.

Bambaata · 11-08-2013 9:27am

Mr Tango wrote: »

Lots of action on the CK Tri board yesterday. Good few drafting penalties.

Shame the results dont show who

griffin100 · 11-08-2013 9:27am

Didn't see any penalties in Tri The Lough yesterday but did see drafting and bare torsos.

Jupiter36 · 11-08-2013 12:03pm

The official results will show who got penalties. Timing company's format doesn't accommodate space for text reflecting penalties (unless they are willing to reformat manually on the day - maybe something to consider for future events). They just add the time penalty to the total.

fluboy · 12-08-2013 12:33am

Great race on Saturday at the CK Tri. I just noticed that 3 of the drafting penalties imposed were given to three lads who finished just ahead of me in the top 20. Kind of pissed off now.

http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

Bambaata · 12-08-2013 12:46pm

I see there seemed to be a nice little chain gang going based on those numbers and the results. I presume we cant name them here properly can we?

miller82 · 12-08-2013 1:48pm

Bambaata wrote: »

I see there seemed to be a nice little chain gang going based on those numbers and the results. I presume we cant name them here properly can we?

wouldnt be too hard to figure out

http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

A group of about 4 or 5 whizzed by me when i was about 9th/10th on the bike so i presume it was these lads. One even asked me "the marshal hasnt been around giving yellows has he" .....eh no...."ah grand so".. and on they went

Granolite · 12-08-2013 1:59pm

Bambaata wrote: »

I see there seemed to be a nice little chain gang going based on those numbers and the results. I presume we cant name them here properly can we?

miller82 wrote: »

wouldnt be too hard to figure out

http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

A group of about 4 or 5 whizzed by me when i was about 9th/10th on the bike so i presume it was these lads. One even asked me "the marshal hasnt been around giving yellows has he" .....eh no...."ah grand so".. and on they went

A remarkably coordinated effort for the event as a whole by those lads when you compare the times above and below them on the results/timing sheet.

NorthernRaider · 12-08-2013 2:06pm

Very disappointing to see such blatant flouting of the rules.

Could we not have a rolling list of drafting penalties, updated here through the season? Ideally, TI would also have one.

I know it's only the tip of the iceberg, but from an ethical / legal perspective, surely there is no issue (penalties are independently determined and there's an avenue of appeal)?

Bambaata · 12-08-2013 6:43pm

miller82 wrote: »

wouldnt be too hard to figure out

http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

A group of about 4 or 5 whizzed by me when i was about 9th/10th on the bike so i presume it was these lads. One even asked me "the marshal hasnt been around giving yellows has he" .....eh no...."ah grand so".. and on they went

Oh ive seen that but i was wondering if we could start a name and shame thread whereby we could put up each race and who was penalised at each.

catweazle · 12-08-2013 7:21pm

Jupiter36 wrote: »

The official results will show who got penalties. Timing company's format doesn't accommodate space for text reflecting penalties (unless they are willing to reformat manually on the day - maybe something to consider for future events). They just add the time penalty to the total.

A fair point - perhaps provisional results should not be posted at all without these drafting penalties displayed prominently, I assume TI could push through a diktat like that for their National Series races. I will admit I have read them already and I wont be going back in again to the site to look for official ones now

Are racetec the same crowd that did the Hell of the West - while I like their results and rankings display they need to adjust their fields to bump penalties up onto their main information page rather than a secondary page or they could give an option of an xls sheet with all info from the results page perhaps

The results sheet for the Aquathon and Loughrea races had the penalties in plain view - I assume both were done by Redtagtiming who display them in xls or pdf format, a simpler system but gives more flexibility on the output

NeedsTraining · 12-08-2013 8:21pm

I was one of those who got a drafting penalty at CK on Saturday.
While there have been some disparaging comments in the thread above about us who so 'blatantly flouted the rules', I can guarantee you there was no train or peloton on Saturday.
I will discuss, challenge, debate or do whatever else you want to do in relation to this, so feel free to ask any question you want.

I won't lose any sleep over this because I know I raced fair and honest on Saturday.
What I do feel aggrieved about is the penalty itself and had a conversation with the TO afterwards as I was just after been passed and I had sat up.

For what it was worth, my 10k splits were 17.14, 16.22, 17.14, 16.52. On a 2 lap course, I was either drafting consistently or splits were consistent. I know what way I look at it.
A 30 second difference between the 16.22 and 16.52 sections, you can ask was that the benefit of drafting? Or I could tell you my calf cramped about 5k from home.

As I said I know the truth, so feel free to be the first to throw stones if you believe it is warranted.

bryangiggsy · 13-08-2013 9:31am

Fair play for admitting the penalty.

From what your saying a guy went past you pulled in front.... and you sat up and a motorbike pinged you straight away?

mloc123 · 13-08-2013 11:28am

I raced a draft legal race about a month ago. I was on my own for the first 10km and got into a nice paceline for the second 10km. My splits were even, my effort throughout was not

Even splits mean nothing.

NorthernRaider · 13-08-2013 5:52pm

What I do feel aggrieved about is the penalty itself and had a conversation with the TO afterwards as I was just after been passed and I had sat up.

So, what did the TO say?

NeedsTraining · 13-08-2013 7:28pm

NorthernRaider wrote: »

What I do feel aggrieved about is the penalty itself and had a conversation with the TO afterwards as I was just after been passed and I had sat up.

So, what did the TO say?

He basically said you may not have thought you were but you were. Wasn't really worth arguing it as he said there would be no overturning. But he did acknowledge the fact that I had sat up but not soon enough

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Fair play for admitting the penalty.

From what your saying a guy went past you pulled in front.... and you sat up and a motorbike pinged you straight away?

It was a car actually :eek:
I was passed by 2 guys immediately before I was done. Again, he said I didn't fall back soon enough. In my opinion, it's very hard to drop straight back when you are going full pelt in your own race. Especially when the bikes in front are slowing down. My two cents worth

mloc123 wrote: »

I raced a draft legal race about a month ago. I was on my own for the first 10km and got into a nice paceline for the second 10km. My splits were even, my effort throughout was not

Even splits mean nothing.

Fair point, however I know the effort I put in and I know I worked as hard in each of the 10k splits.

I have no problem admitting the penalty here because I know I did nothing wrong, as I said previously, I raced honest and fair.

I hereby close my defence, justification or as I would like to call it transparency

fluboy · 13-08-2013 7:55pm

I taught the T.O in the "undercover" car was a smart way of checking on the bike course and it worked well. Might be a good idea for all races on open roads?

bryangiggsy · 13-08-2013 9:24pm

NeedsTraining wrote: »

He basically said you may not have thought you were but you were. Wasn't really worth arguing it as he said there would be no overturning. But he did acknowledge the fact that I had sat up but not soon enough

It was a car actually :eek:
I was passed by 2 guys immediately before I was done. Again, he said I didn't fall back soon enough. In my opinion, it's very hard to drop straight back when you are going full pelt in your own race. Especially when the bikes in front are slowing down. My two cents worth

Fair point, however I know the effort I put in and I know I worked as hard in each of the 10k splits.

I have no problem admitting the penalty here because I know I did nothing wrong, as I said previously, I raced honest and fair.

I hereby close my defence, justification or as I would like to call it transparency

I assume the 2 guys who passed u got pinged as well. No offence but its hard to believe ...if a car pinged u he must have had good reason and going on what u described that does not convey good reason.

Green&Red · 19-08-2013 12:01pm

NeedsTraining wrote: »

I was passed by 2 guys immediately before I was done. Again, he said I didn't fall back soon enough. In my opinion, it's very hard to drop straight back when you are going full pelt in your own race. Especially when the bikes in front are slowing down. My two cents worth

Had you overtaken these two guys previously?

longshank · 19-08-2013 4:25pm

fluboy wrote: »

Great race on Saturday at the CK Tri. I just noticed that 3 of the drafting penalties imposed were given to three lads who finished just ahead of me in the top 20. Kind of pissed off now.

http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

no. 73 got a drafting penalty AND a spot prize...you win some, you loose some!!

mossym · 24-08-2013 4:32pm

didn't see if there was any penalties handed out, but huge amount of drafting going on at world ends tri today. had 8 lads in a group about half a km in front of me for a good portion of the ride, no efforts to overtake going on.

couldn't gain on them in the group, but when it did eventually break up it was crazy to see how easy it was to pick them off . they were gaining such an advantage in the group it's depressing

Solobally8 · 24-08-2013 6:48pm

Worlds end was the same last year. Worst drafting I've ever seen. Packs the whole way round the course. I was thinking it was possibly because there are so many beginners at that triathlon, maybe they don't see it as cheating. It could never be a Ns race as far as I'm concerned.

Ceepo · 24-08-2013 8:33pm

I wasn't there but i hear they were hunting in packs,

Fermoy didnt escape the draft fest either,

Dont think there will be any end to it i'm afraid :mad:

mirrormatrix · 25-08-2013 2:28pm

Just out of interest, why do the pros race road bikes in draft legal races, while the AGers race TT bikes with no drafting. I know that this is what ITU rules state, but what is the underlying reason?

Is it a safety issue? This doesn't seem to stack up to me for a number of reasons, the chief one being that there are already plenty of cycling races organised through CI which would have exactly the same issues. Crashes should be no more likely in the bike leg of a tri than in a cycling race.

I've been told in the past that triathletes ride TT bikes in no drafting races because it is a solo sport and drafting benefits one athlete at the expense of another. However, drafting is permitted (and even encouraged) in the swim leg so why not just apply the same rationale to the bike leg and make it draft legal?

I'm just genuinely curious as to why the pro races are a totally different variant of the sport to the AG races? Is this unique to Ireland or is it an ITU wide rule? I would love to see some draft legal races on the TI calendar. I think it would make the races a lot more tactical, as you would need to try to find a pack to work with on the bike leg.

I guess this approach wouldn't make sense in the context of the NS, as it would introduce even more variation between races, but I think it would be cool to have the option of doing this type of race, even if it weren't part of the NS.

sconhome · 25-08-2013 2:46pm

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Just out of interest, why do the pros race road bikes in draft legal races, while the AGers race TT bikes with no drafting. I know that this is what ITU rules state, but what is the underlying reason?

Is it a safety issue? This doesn't seem to stack up to me for a number of reasons, the chief one being that there are already plenty of cycling races organised through CI which would have exactly the same issues. Crashes should be no more likely in the bike leg of a tri than in a cycling race.

I've been told in the past that triathletes ride TT bikes in no drafting races because it is a solo sport and drafting benefits one athlete at the expense of another. However, drafting is permitted (and even encouraged) in the swim leg so why not just apply the same rationale to the bike leg and make it draft legal?

I'm just genuinely curious as to why the pro races are a totally different variant of the sport to the AG races? Is this unique to Ireland or is it an ITU wide rule? I would love to see some draft legal races on the TI calendar. I think it would make the races a lot more tactical, as you would need to try to find a pack to work with on the bike leg.

I guess this approach wouldn't make sense in the context of the NS, as it would introduce even more variation between races, but I think it would be cool to have the option of doing this type of race, even if it weren't part of the NS.

Good question (possibly one for discussion in a new thread mods?).

The official reason is safety and time advantages in what is supposed to be an individual sport: Rule of the Week #1

Personally I would agree with the safety reasons.

Have you seen the carnage that happens in cycling sportives when people think they're in the Tour de France? Fellows scattered all over the place overtaking on the wrong side of the road, no regard for the rules of the road or other traffic.

Do you really want to be racing at 35/40km/hr in a bunch with a dolly mixture of abilities and cycling skills? I don't.

I think the pro series is better as a result of being draft legal. Safety wise they are far more experienced so while the risks are minimised, everyone is more on a par with cycling skills etc AND their courses are always closed to traffic.

I also agree with the spirit of the sport being individual, its you racing against you (and hoping to beat a few others along the way).

Bambaata · 25-08-2013 3:51pm

I dont think you can compare cycling and triathlon either. I reckon there are a lot more inexperienced people doping triathlon (its the new marathon) than cycling. I know ive heard a lot of horror stories in the A4s in cycling and id imagine it would be utter carnage in triathlon! I know i wouldnt be happy cycling in a triathlon bunch.

RacoonQueen · 25-08-2013 4:03pm

Seemed to be a few people caught for drafting at DCT. All marshals on the course were taking numbers of people who seemed to be drafting, if your number was reported by marshals three times you're gone.

Few DQ's for dangerous riding as well.
TWO DQ's for headphones...

miller82 · 25-08-2013 4:28pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Seemed to be a few people caught for drafting at DCT. All marshals on the course were taking numbers of people who seemed to be drafting, if your number was reported by marshals three times you're gone.

Few DQ's for dangerous riding as well.
TWO DQ's for headphones...

Where are you seeing the reasons for penalties ?

RacoonQueen · 25-08-2013 4:36pm

miller82 wrote: »

Where are you seeing the reasons for penalties ?

It was on the penalty board in the vodafone tent. Did you get one?

miller82 · 25-08-2013 4:41pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

It was on the penalty board in the vodafone tent. Did you get one?

Yeah but wasnt for drafting anyway. Just saw it in the results

RacoonQueen · 25-08-2013 4:44pm

miller82 wrote: »

Yeah but wasnt for drafting anyway. Just saw it in the results

Dismount line? They were strict on dismount line as well.

sconhome · 25-08-2013 5:11pm

Bambaata wrote: »

I dont think you can compare cycling and triathlon either. I reckon there are a lot more inexperienced people doping triathlon(its the new marathon) than cycling. I know ive heard a lot of horror stories in the A4s in cycling and id imagine it would be utter carnage in triathlon! I know i wouldnt be happy cycling in a triathlon bunch.

:eek: :eek:

Bambaata · 25-08-2013 6:25pm

amphkingwest wrote: »

:eek: :eek:

Woops :-P

mossym · 25-08-2013 8:46pm

Solobally8 wrote: »

Worlds end was the same last year. Worst drafting I've ever seen. Packs the whole way round the course. I was thinking it was possibly because there are so many beginners at that triathlon, maybe they don't see it as cheating. It could never be a Ns race as far as I'm concerned.

wouldn't blame the beginners this year, not exclusively at least,won't go into details but at least a few of the group i was chasing were not new to the sport

Stereomaniac · 25-08-2013 8:54pm

I am trying to understand what drafting is but I still am not sure if I have grasped it correctly?

Mr.Fred · 25-08-2013 8:59pm

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I am trying to understand what drafting is but I still am not sure if I have grasped it correctly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)

boodiebhoy · 25-08-2013 9:12pm

mossym wrote: »

wouldn't blame the beginners this year, not exclusively at least,won't go into details but at least a few of the group i was chasing were not new to the sport

As a newbie I joined a club at start of the year and have been warned by the club about drafting right from the start. Maybe clubs could play a bigger role in discouraging their members from drafting.

Ceepo · 25-08-2013 9:25pm

boodiebhoy wrote: »

As a newbie I joined a club at start of the year and have been warned by the club about drafting right from the start. Maybe clubs could play a bigger role in discouraging their members from drafting.

You may have a point. But for the most part the ones who are Drafting know they are Drafting.
It happens in every race and will continue to do so.

Re Worlds end. If you leave 250+ of in one wave you are asking for trouble.
Smaller staggered waves and you might have some hope.

ray o · 26-08-2013 10:21am

I was talking with a clubmate last night. He went off in wave 1 yesterday and he swam sub 24. He said he was on the feet of a swimmer most of the way from the start but about 50-70 yards from the turn the feet disappeared. He looked ahead and to both sides but could not see where he had gone. Couple of seconds later the person popped up on the other side of the center boom.

I don't think there are many courses where someone would be able to cheat in this manner - thinking about it it's such a simple thing to do on that course if you want to cheat. It's one for the organisers to be aware of next year - have plenty of kayaks positioned 200m or so from the turnaround on both sides

hardCopy · 26-08-2013 10:24am

ray o wrote: »

I was talking with a clubmate last night. He went off in wave 1 yesterday and he swam sub 24. He said he was on the feet of a swimmer most of the way from the start but about 50-70 yards from the turn the feet disappeared. He looked ahead and to both sides but could not see where he had gone. Couple of seconds later the person popped up on the other side of the center boom.

I don't think there are many courses where someone would be able to cheat in this manner - thinking about it it's such a simple thing to do on that course if you want to cheat. It's one for the organisers to be aware of next year - have plenty of kayaks positioned 200m or so from the turnaround on both sides

Seems a pretty dangerous way to cheat. Skipping a buoy is one thing but diving under a boom with ropes and weeds to get tangled on, in murky water is just dumb.

Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

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