Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

Nwm2

Based on what I saw yesterday, a sizeable portion of Irish triathletes are cheating bastards.

This wasn't pushing the limit of the draft zone, or barely legal, or straying into the zone, or bunching going up the hill.

This was all out wheel sucking peletons.

Cheating from the very top (podium guys got busted), right back to the back of the field based on conversations I had.

I was in around the top 10%, and the cheaters I saw had TT bikes and aero helmets and are genuine triathletes. I caught up to one group of about 8 and couldn't believe what they were doing - basically rolling through, up and overs, <1m between wheels. I passed and put in an effort to distance myself. Next thing I know a minute later, they all pass me one after another in a line - they thought I was now part of their peleton.

They were passed at least once by a motorbike marshall - who took no action.

How can we solve this? Or are the cheaters outnumbering the honest?

Two things I would like to see:

(1) Far harsher penalties. It looks like, even for the faster guys, a draft penalty is just the price of doing business. A probable gain of 2 min yesterday (or much less effort) versus the small chance of a 2 min penalty. Yeah, let's take that bet.

For blatant drafting, ie peletons/wheel sucking - it should be 10 mins or more. Can RDs implement this? Or are they restricted by TI rules?

For something like an inadvertent 9m instead of 10m - 2 min is fine.

(2) Far stricter motorbike marshalls, and more of them. If you rarely see them, and if they don't take action anyway, they are no deterrent.

Is there any additional way of enforcing the rules? Are stationary checkpoints workable in any way?


I've given up on the notion of the honour system, this is about how to enforce the rules. Some credit at least to some of the officials yesterday giving the penalties to the top guys. Better than the ludicrous 'half-penalty' given to Bryan Keane last year.

smcgiff

The marshall didn't fail to see the towel fall off that lady's top exposing her breasts.

Unregistered.

I was caught by them too. Impossible to get out when they box you in. And very dangerous, lots of weaving as the idiots were all on their TT bars.

elvis jones

smcgiff wrote: »

The marshall didn't fail to see the towel fall off that lady's top exposing her breasts.

If you are talking about Wesport it wasn't a marshall, it a the race ref from TI. If you're going to side swipe at least have your facts right.

On the drafting, its the TI guys on the motorbikes who really need to clamp down and report more athletes and harsher penalties. The OP was spot on with their post on it.

captainkeg

can I ask a stupid question?
why is drafting illegal in the cycle?safety reasons? It's allowed in the Olympics if I'm not mistaken. It's also allowed in the swim,why ban something that's impossible to police properly?

elvis jones

captainkeg wrote: »

can I ask a stupid question?
why is drafting illegal in the cycle?safety reasons? It's allowed in the Olympics if I'm not mistaken. It's also allowed in the swim,why ban something that's impossible to police properly?

In the Olympics you have very experienced riders, at an average race............no. Safety and guys on full TT bars that have their heads down.

Nwm2

elvis jones wrote: »

In the Olympics you have very experienced riders, at an average race............no. Safety and guys on full TT bars that have their heads down.

Drop the TT bars and it would be fine. I have done 3 draft legal duathlons in the last year, with lots of inexperienced riders, with no issues that I heard of.

Draft legal races are enjoyable, have their place, and I wish there was more of them, but I, and I'm sure others, have invested too much $$ in TT bikes to have them relegated to TTs only!

Still, going draft-legal is certainly the nuclear option here.

catweazle

TI Officials don't want the hassle if you ask me - every race I am at there has been drafting and I see very little correlation with the penalties board.

From my three races this year

Trisport Duathlon - A team of three went around the whole course working together. Laughed at me when I called them cheats as they went by me, I mentioned iot to marshals going by but what else can i do

Triburgh this a year a group of 4 riders all go by me, not working together sharing the front but they were clearly sucking the life of the first wheel. They were seen on a few occasions by the TI official as I was about 50ms back but nothing done about it, 3 of them finish ahead of me at the end of the race. I could give their names but what is that going to do besides me getting slapped with a libel suit

Kilkee - While 2012 was an improvement, 2011 and this year were draft fests again, not so much on the outward section but coming back in against the headwind is when it starts. 3-4 large packs came by me and I am talking 15+. I haven't come across it this blatant in any other race except for Athy a few years ago so you have to think it is a crowded course as well which makes it more tempting

Its little things that could be improved

I know there is a penalty board at the race itself which is something I never bother looking at or even think about due to my low position but maybe in the online results section to make fellow competitors see who got penalties straight away.

I had to go shifting through results to find them -

Bjorn and Dave had bike penalties from the top ten - I know they are 2 minute penalties given to them on the bike but I don't know what they are for - were they caught drafting - make it more clear!

How many more were caught - the penalty list should be posted as a link on the results as well!

Bambaata

It really gets me too. I had a bunch of 3 go past me at Roses Point, 1 of which podiumed. I'm told he got a penalty but it doesn't reflect i the results. I know there was a penalty pen so he could have served it there and went on but to me it should be highlighted on the results so that there is some shame brought to the individual. Maybe a weekly posting from TI of who was caught cheating at races each week might get them, to cop on by publicly naming and shaming? Its very sad seeing the guys at the top at this considering they should be leading by example.

Fazz

I'm hoping it will now be clamped down much more - especially for the top 10-20 where podiums and prize money is affected.

It's easily fixed imo, simply assign 1-2 moto's to manage the top 10-20 of every race.
You'll soon see who is drafting and regularly and apply fair penalties.

Penalties, to my knowledge are not being applied correctly either.

I had the perfect view point many times yesterday having a good bike recovering through lots of competitors from a poor swim.
Saw groups of 3-4, saw some just sitting on wheels or 1-2 bike's back taking massive drafts.

Also got passed a couple times and watched the power drop 50 watts.
50 Watts as I dropped back the legal gap and stayed behind.
Still down 50 watts thinking I'm losing time here, back on the power and re-pass only to get passed a few seconds later as my wheel gets sucked and the offender doesn't move back the 10 metres required clearly.

2 minutes is not a sufficient penalty.
It is for one offence, but not for repeated drafting.

I saw a moto come up behind a group of 4 in top 15 who were all at most 2-3 bike lengths back. He didn't show any yellow cards, didn't have words or get close to any of the bikes then pulled in at next turn.

I understand no warning is required by Moto Officials. but it's also not fair to apply 1 penalty to a racer seen drafting and leave it at that as he continues to draft up the road!

To my knowledge, the rule is first drafting penalty - 2 minutes. Repeated offence = DQ.
It is not sufficient to simply write down a number and give a 2 minute penalty at the end. They've received a massive benefit worth more than 2 minutes if they've drafted a good bit of bike.
Not to mention legs fresher for the run having been 50 watts easier for a portion of the bike!

Please TI and Race Directors, enforce 1-2 moto's to manage the top 10-15 at least throughout the whole race.
Apply penalties on the course not post race 1 single penalty.

It is a start at least in the right direction so that was good to see.

bryangiggsy

There were a no of motorbike marshalls however i only saw one with a pillion passenger who had a stick with a camera attached and pulled up alongside a group of four or five that passed me and she started snapping photos. I thought that was efficient.

elvis jones

Nuff said

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173232721/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173092013/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173088061/in/set-72157634404228921

woody1

is it right though for someone to be able to be on a podium after what is effectively cheating.. to be honest with blatant drafting of the type being described here i think they should just be disqualified straight away.. its one thing to be marginally inside the draft zone a metre or 2 can happen very easily and accidentally.. but this is organised cheating to gain an advantage and should be cracked down very hard on.. if you want to cycle like that join a cycling team..

NorthernRaider

Good post, NWM, I'm glad you highlighted this. Not that it needs much confirmation, but I can certainly add my tuppence worth, essentially corroborating what has been said above.

I saw one of the aforesaid pelotons (with some very decent triathletes amongst them) cycling together for at least a good distance. Two motorcycle officials passed them and did nothing (I checked the penalties afterwards). When one of them subsequently passed me, I was actually sufficiently annoyed to point to the peloton and asked him what he was going to do! He then drove up and waved his arm as if to try and separate the offenders, who ignored him (and he did not give any penalty).

However, it did strike me that there are probably some innocent parties in those pelotons. If somebody catches, say a peloton of 15, they're unlikely to be able to pass (as Fazz has pointed out!), so what are they supposed to do? Otherwise, there are cases where you have two people who are of very similar ability and who are genuinely battling all the way. I think these cases are ambiguous as opposed to those who start the peloton and individual who 'wheel suck'.

For those, I'd echo some of the above:

1) Get the motorcycle officials to be meaner (while still fair) - I don't think the problem is the number of them, but how they act.

2) Publicise the offenders. As noted, it's not at all clear from the provisional or official results (e.g. Rosses Point). Why not add it to the weekly update!?

3) We should all contact TI and make our views known. Does a TI representative still keep an eye on this forum? The new CEO has expressedly talked of re-engaging with the non-elite triathlete, so TI should be open to this dialogue.

Otherwise, it's good to see that at least some penalties were levied and big boys were among the recipients! I'm pretty surprised and disappointed that very capable athletes are engaging in this behaviour. Where would those of us non-drafters have otherwise finished?

P.S. No to acquathons!!!:p A.K.A. Draft-legal tris!

Nwm2

TI's attitude is obvious from their race report. Drafting is airbrushed from history:

"With a strong breeze not letting up, the bike would prove to be a serious test. In the men’s race Noble continued to push the pace and entered T2 with a sizable lead followed by Thornton. Nenagh TC’s Shane Scully put in an impressive bike split to move right up through the field and into 3rd.

....


In the men’s race there would be no stopping Gavin Noble as he smashed the old course record by 7min 54secs to set a new best of 1:59:46. European Age Group Champion, Kevin Thornton ran well to claim 2nd, also within the previous record some 5:19 down on Noble. 3rd place went to Mark Horan who had a great run to finish 10:10 down."

Yea, that's exactly what happened. Complete BS and chicken-sh*t reporting.

Unregistered.

elvis jones wrote: »

Nuff said

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173232721/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173092013/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173088061/in/set-72157634404228921

Impossible, and unfair, to judge from photographs.

El Director

Only spotted this thread now. I have already made my point on the HoTW thread and I ain't getting into it again. In short though I agree with most of what is being said above. I don't get how some of these guys can train so hard to become so good at what they do only to cheat on the day. It does not add up. To get as good as some of these guys you got to work so hard and you know one thing for sure - there are no short cuts. So why cheat then? Now let me just say I believe there are more good apples than bad but something needs to be done and it has to come from us. I for one will be much more proactive about this issue in the future. It needs to be stamped out.

BTW I agree about the photo's, taken out of context they are a little unfair. They are just a snap shot of a moment. Is the cyclist behind closing in and ready to pass? Has the rider in front just passed? Is there a bloody tractor or car just in front holding up the whole show? BEEP BEEP!

BTW was it just me o did anyway else see a moto with a person on the back with a GOPRO camera on a stick? I thought they might be gathering evidence of drafting or something. Perhaps they were just getting race footage.

couerdelion

catweazle wrote: »

Bjorn and Dave had bike penalties from the top ten - I know they are 2 minute penalties given to them on the bike but I don't know what they are for - were they caught drafting - make it more clear!

Yes, Bjorn's was for drafting. He was adamant he hadn't been and whilst on the course didn't get any indication that he was going to be penalised (i.e. warning from motorcycle marshal or yellow card). He paid his money and appealed it and got told it would stand.

pgibbo

I think the blatant drafting on Saturday was shocking. I found myself sitting up on numerous occasions when a group of 3 or 4 would pass me. I'd drop back and soon I was overtaking them all only for them to not drop back and just overtake me again. :mad:

I saw the guy with the GoPro on a stick alright but not sure if he was taking footage or catching drafters.

I agree that the photos can be very misleading. As pointed out by others, anything could have been happening when the pic was taken.

catweazle

couerdelion wrote: »

Yes, Bjorn's was for drafting. He was adamant he hadn't been and whilst on the course didn't get any indication that he was going to be penalised (i.e. warning from motorcycle marshal or yellow card). He paid his money and appealed it and got told it would stand.

I doubt very much anyone would fess up and admit to it - perhaps Bjorn is an innocent party and was badly wronged but I doubt it - you can bet your ass that the TI official would be 100% certain that he was drafting before hitting someone that was probably knocking around in the top 5 at the time.

Solobally8

elvis jones wrote: »

Nuff said

I didnt quote your photos elvis because I really dont think you should have put them up in the first place. There is no context to them, how do you know exactly what was happening? It looks like its at the top of a hill. How do you know they didnt over take 2 seconds after the photo was taken. And if they were actually drafting it's not up to us to post photos of them here.

There was a photo taken of me in a triathlon last year that mortifies me. I am so close to the guy in front of me, it looks like I'm stuck to his back wheel. But the photo doesnt tell the story of what was happening (people walking on road so I had to duck back in behind him after trying to over take, guy in front crawling, people ahead of him on tandem crawling, just coming out of transition etc).

My point is that photos dont tell the whole story and its unfair that they are posted up on this thread.


By the way drafting drives me mental and as a back of the packer I see a lot of it. Cant understand why people would do all this training and then cheat on race day.

peter kern

Ti is very good a controlling the transition aerea. Where they get people for technicalities like crossing a white line by 2 cm.
They have a proven record for officiating transitoons

by now we are that far that people are really worried not to cross that white line by 2cm but know nothing will happen if they draft.

Anyway I shut up as the only thing that will help is if all the people that complain become draft marshalls.

It's easy to complain about draft marshalls but they still give up their time and for what they get you can't expect them to be good.

elvis jones

Unregistered. wrote: »

Impossible, and unfair, to judge from photographs.

Sorry i should have explained it better when i posted those pics.

Some of riders are so close you can just see a shoe or a helmet behind the 1st rider. There's no excuse for that.

trihead

This comes up every year after Kilkee and a few other of the big races...its not a Kilkee problem as it is seen in a lot of races up and down the country to some degree.

My suggestions to try and improve this:

- Increase the penalties for this. Either much bigger time penalties or
if you are caught drafting you will not podium / pick up an AG price / points disallowed from this race for series.

- Name and shame athletes ( maybe the first offense would not be published).

- The bike riders / Draft marshalls should be paid from the race organisers fund. Why - Shortage of bike riders at most races / Need to separate bike riders or draft marshals from the ordinary volunteers... so they are there to do a job and not be 'afraid' to act on what they see. Training would be needed though aswell.

- More funding for technical equipment such as cameras from TI or sponsors. Maybe this could shared and used for the bigger races / national series between clubs.

- If the organisers have use of cameras maybe use them for drafting instead of shooting videos for promotion on fb etc.

- Increase the number of race refs that clubs have to have especially for the bigger races.

trihead:)

couerdelion

trihead wrote: »

- The bike riders / Draft marshalls should be paid from the race organisers fund. Why - Shortage of bike riders at most races / Need to separate bike riders or draft marshals from the ordinary volunteers... so they are there to do a job and not be 'afraid' to act on what they see. Training would be needed though aswell.

The motorbike marshalls are provided from a central pool from TI and each motorcycle marshall has to undergo training and recertify each year (this is to do with insurance I believe). The course is good and explains everything marshalls need to know. From what I recall you do get a stipend to marshall plus mileage to get there and for what is used whilst doing the race duties.

The presence of marshalls is usually enough to stop any drafting that is happening. If you hear a bike athletes make sure you have the correct gap and you have to make sure that the distance is too close for the required number of seconds too - this means in the majority of cases by the time the marshalls suspects drafting, moves up / turns round to monitor it then the drafting has ended. He then moves on and the drafting continues. It's a tough job to be seen to be doing well.

Green&Red

Some ridiculous examples on Saturday. I saw the marshall maybe 3-4 times on the way out, not at all on the way back.
I had a great battle with two lads, where they would overtake me on some of the flatter sections and I'd take them on the hills, all legal but then we were caught by a group of 4/5, clearly doing up and overs and working as a team, let them off and watched them, there was no sign of even making an attempt to hide it. Eventually when we came to those couple of big hills towards the end I passed them and didnt see them again until the run, when they all overtook me. So basically I had busted myself on the bike while they had conserved their energy and then they reaped the rewards.
Even if I am a middle of the packer its still annoying, the difference between 100th and 80th doesnt mean a lot to anyone other than me but for me busting my arse all year it makes all the difference

Nwm2

couerdelion wrote: »

The presence of marshalls is usually enough to stop any drafting that is happening. If you hear a bike athletes make sure you have the correct gap and you have to make sure that the distance is too close for the required number of seconds too - this means in the majority of cases by the time the marshalls suspects drafting, moves up / turns round to monitor it then the drafting has ended. He then moves on and the drafting continues. It's a tough job to be seen to be doing well.

How does this explain the several people on here, including myself, who saw motorbike marshalls going past peletons of actively drafting folk, but taking no action?

couerdelion

Nwm2 wrote: »

How does this explain the several people on here, including myself, who saw motorbike marshalls going past peletons of actively drafting folk, but taking no action?

It doesn't. Maybe the marshall believed there to be 10m between front wheels when he was monitoring from the side. Something that might not be as obvious from behind.

I'm not being naïve enough to suggest that drafting wasn't happening. I just can't understand why a marshall would ride past and do nothing.

tunney

couerdelion wrote: »

I just can't understand why a marshall would ride past and do nothing.

Don't give a fvck. Boils down to that.

conradk

Really to sort this out, pressure needs to be brought to bear on TI to take drafting/cheating more seriously.
- Emails to administrator@triathlonireland.com might be a good place to start?
- A motion at the TI AGM to increase penalties for drafting and focus more resources towards draft marshals might also be a medium term initiative.

We all know who the drafters are as they appear to do it race after race. Good to see penalties handed out at Kilkee. We need more of this.

Drafting is infuriating to the majority of people (of all abilities) who train hard and honestly and play by the rules.

I couldn't count the number of times I've had people openly tell me that they got a good draft in a race, they don't seem too put off when I tell them baldly to their faces that drafting is cheating.

Triathlon Ireland

Hi All,

You may have spotted them already but we have a few videos from the Hell of the West race on our Youtube and vimeo sites.
Highlights - https://vimeo.com/69426668
Gavin - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTVSPxBmcLE
Anna - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D33yKMS50J4

With regard to drafting we have a short post on www.triathlonireland.com about this and will be asking MO's to be a little firmer in applying the drafting rules. http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1334

As always appreciate any feedback so grab us at a race, drop us an email or volunteer to be a technical official or motor bike marshal.

Thanks,
Triathlon Ireland