Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

Oryx · 02-07-2013 8:23pm

longshank wrote: »

maybe the numbers in the race should be limited if that's the case.
prevention is always better than cure. don't give cheats the opportunity to draft and if they do it's obvious and the officials can pick it up as they have less cyclists to watch.
Actually it probably requires all of the measures mentioned -more space on course/harsher punishment/ name and shame/ clear anti-drafting campaign/ more marshals etc etc.

If its the top guys and gals that are doing it, and benefiting from it, reducing numbers overall won't fix a thing. You can only draft with people of similar ability so its not numbers as such, its knowing you won't get caught that lets it happen.

Two strikes = dq, actively enforced, might make cheaters think.

Shedite27 · 03-07-2013 8:20am

longshank wrote: »

maybe the numbers in the race should be limited if that's the case.

Would you pay a higher entrance fee to know people have less opportunity to draft?

Oryx wrote: »

If its the top guys and gals that are doing it, and benefiting from it, reducing numbers overall won't fix a thing. You can only draft with people of similar ability so its not numbers as such, its knowing you won't get caught that lets it happen.

Exactly, the top guys are still going to draft.

IMO, as someone who is in the top 20% finishing time in most races I enter, but never competing for prizes, I think it's foolish to draft, you're only fooling yourself. I'm only competing against myself, trying to beat PB's etc. Are my friends really going to be impressed if I come home on a Sunday and tell them I got finished in 2hr22 rather than 2hr28? What on earth is the point?

Mr.Fred · 03-07-2013 9:21am

Shedite27 wrote: »

Would you pay a higher entrance fee to know people have less opportunity to draft?

Ah C'mon I'm not sure if you were at Athy it was bordering on the ridiculous. Waves were still starting at 17.30 and there entry wasn't cheap.

I find myself looking for the smaller and better run events these days instead of the money spinners.

I should add I'm no where near the front runners and compete against myself so I'd only be cheating myself drafting.

tunney · 03-07-2013 9:29am

Ten years ago the fields were tiny in comparison, my first Kilkee had just over 200 in it. Guess what - there was drafting there too. There is always drafting when the rules are not enforced and when everyone knows that they are not.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 03-07-2013 10:50am

rowr wrote: »

Carry a small bottle of piss and squirt it at anyone that hugs your wheel. Problem solved. Culprits can then be identified at finish line .

No need to get high tec about things

I found this worked well in my first HIM, not that i used a bottle!! He soon backed off my wheel with a mouthful of custom made iso

elvis jones · 03-07-2013 2:27pm

Mr.Fred wrote: »

There were far to many entrants in Athy for a 1 day event. I think the $$$ skewed their perspective to be honest and they crammed in as many as they thought possible.

Hopefully it'll return to a 2 day event if the up take is similar next year.

Also as previously stated drafting was rampant but there was a continuous line with the number of competitors, some however used this to their advantage.

No it will be one day event again.

elvis jones · 03-07-2013 2:29pm

tunney wrote: »

Ten years ago the fields were tiny in comparison, my first Kilkee had just over 200 in it. Guess what - there was drafting there too. There is always drafting when the rules are not enforced and when everyone knows that they are not.

It boils down to the above, its the same in every sport. People will always try to get away with rules football, hurling, rugby they are all the same.

Shedite27 · 03-07-2013 5:34pm

elvis jones wrote: »

It boils down to the above, its the same in every sport. People will always try to get away with rules football, hurling, rugby they are all the same.

True.

A coach of mine once told me (not mentioning which sport), not to worry about giving away frees, if you're not commiting fouls you're not getting close enough to the letter of the law.

Of course the top guys are going to keep drafting until they're pulled up on it (and will continue to do so unless the penalties are increased to make it not worth their while).

Also, the idea that a 2min penalty should be the same regardless of distance makes no sense - should be more for a HIM than an Olympic or sprint.

SlowMe · 03-07-2013 6:57pm

As an interesting aside - to me at least - I came across some commentary yesterday in the context of the TDF TTT. In a drafting situation obviously the drafter gets a substantial advantage but what I didn't know was that the lead cyclist also gets a benefit. Approx 10-20 watts possibly more depending on conditions. Not massive but an advantage all the same. It arises from the drafting rider effectively 'managing' the turbulence behind the lead rider - chaotic turbulence has a measurable drag effect

El Director · 03-07-2013 7:04pm

SlowMe wrote: »

As an interesting aside - to me at least - I came across some commentary yesterday in the context of the TDF TTT. In a drafting situation obviously the drafter gets a substantial advantage but what I didn't know was that the lead cyclist also gets a benefit. Approx 10-20 watts possibly more depending on conditions. Not massive but an advantage all the same. It arises from the drafting rider effectively 'managing' the turbulence behind the lead rider - chaotic turbulence has a measurable drag effect

Yip....'dirty air' can have an effect and a rider on your back wheel can have the effect of smoothing it out. Interesting stuff alright

Mr.Fred · 03-07-2013 9:26pm

elvis jones wrote: »

No it will be one day event again.

That's unfortunate. I'll have to look farther afield.

mossym · 03-07-2013 9:29pm

Mr.Fred wrote: »

That's unfortunate. I'll have to look farther afield.

just do the double olympic, it's on in the morning..:)

Mr.Fred · 03-07-2013 9:31pm

mossym wrote: »

just do the double olympic, it's on in the morning..:)

Haha I'd be afraid I'd still be going come the evening

Nwm2 · 04-07-2013 10:18am

A post from a Motorcycle Official on TI's site:

As an MO, I have come across situations that on the face of it would seem to command a penalty, but there is the 30 second rule which many avail of to just about get away with drafting. Congregating groups are a major concern but bunching can happen, particularly on hilly courses like kilkee. Those stuck in the middle often cant barge out without a possible crash. Safety first at all times. Also, the MO's are nt everywher all the time and can only cover so much ground on a rotating basis, so it really is up to athletes themselves to enforce the rules on themselves and by default, on those that may be drafting them. its an unfortunate development and I too am glad to be getting some clarity on how much the rules are to be enforced. There can be extenuating circumstances that lead to technical drafting issues and sometimes thes get overlooked in favour of safety considerations e.g. not forcing a group break up when road or traffic conditions are adverse and where such a command would give rise to jostling and possible collisions or spreading of group across the road. There are often situaions like that, particularly among the middle time group (who are the biggest portion of most races I have been at). It s not always cut and dry regarding drafting, and an MO's view can be significantly different from a static marshal and even other competitors.Clarity on the issue would be helpful as would a more professional and fair approach from competitors. All competitors knoow the rules, so why do so many try to flaut them? I believe a change in attitude to the sport in needed involving a collective disapproval of unfair behavior by fellow competitors just as much as enforcement. If fair play relies just on a police state type rule enforcement, then I think something needs to change urgently in this sport.

Bambaata · 04-07-2013 10:29am

Name and shame, a weekly email from TI on who was caught drafting. And maybe if caught at x number of events then you get banned for a month/2 months etc with no refund of fees paid for any races in that period. It might turn them away from triathlon but i dont see that as a problem, there seems to be more of a benefit in drafting than PEDs and as such i think it should be treated along those lines!

catweazle · 04-07-2013 10:41am

A couple of official "secret shoppers" on the bike route

I could have handed in to TI any amount of numbers of drafters, perhaps a better cyclist than me would be needed though as I often wouldnt be good enough to re-catch a pack. Would stop their tendancy to break up if they hear the drone of a motorbike coming alongside them

tunney · 04-07-2013 10:48am

Ah right so the TI line is "its the athlete's fault"?

Its not just the middle of the pack its the front too in races. Man up and do people when they are drafting, and make the penalties hurt.

Last duathlon I did in Ireland, I finished 8th (I think) top 7 rode as a pack for the entire bike. Think it was a 1 minute penalty. At the very least should have been a 1 minute penalty every time they are seen.

Another duathlon I did came 4th, top three rode as a TTT, cut the course as well, and got a minute penalty as well.

Why ride legal when you KNOW the rules aren't enforced at all and that no one really gives a sh1t?

Fazz · 04-07-2013 10:57am

Nwm2 wrote: »

A post from a Motorcycle Official on TI's site:

As an MO, I have come across situations that on the face of it would seem to command a penalty, but there is the 30 second rule which many avail of to just about get away with drafting.

There's half our problem....

Isn't the rule 20 seconds to overtake?

And more importantly, once overtaken you've 5 seconds to get back out of draft.
this is blatantly being ignored in my experience.

tunney · 04-07-2013 11:00am

Fazz wrote: »

There's half our problem....

Isn't the rule 20 seconds to overtake?

And more importantly, once overtaken you've 5 seconds to get back out of draft.
this is blatantly being ignored in my experience.

IM style drafting rule is better IMHO

If you entered the draft zone you MUST overtake in 20 seconds or you get done. You cannot drop back out.

Nwm2 · 08-07-2013 12:05pm

Update from Athlone:

I think things went a lot better in Athlone. Others would need to confirm this, but I was a lot happier. The reasons:

1. Not the most important reason for Athlone, but maybe the most significant for the long term, but it looked like the draft marshalls were much stricter. I talked to a few guys immediately after the race and about 3 of them told me they got 1 min penalties. That unscientific survey cheered my up no end. Bravo to TI. I didn't hear the race briefing, so was it emphasized in any different way? However, these cheating bastards still only got a 1 min penalty as far as I can make out. Not enough to do serious damage to their race.

2. There was no big headwind unlike Kilkee, so the temptation wasn't as bad.

3. Unlike Kilkee there was lots and lots and lots of waves, which made the roads much less busy.

In summary, well done TI & marshalls, keep it up and double or triple the penalties at least!

mrbungle · 08-07-2013 12:38pm

I had 1 dirtbag on my tail for the from 2k-5k.

Was waiting for him to pass me and get his number but a motorbike TI yellow carded him, then he had the gaul to argue with the official !! Should have done him again.

Needless to say he dropped off and didnt have the neck or ability to pass me after that. I had a mini mech at the start of the bike that got me for 3-4mins so was distgusted when this lowlife started towing me.

longshank · 08-07-2013 1:09pm

Nwm2 wrote: »

Update from Athlone:

I think things went a lot better in Athlone. Others would need to confirm this, but I was a lot happier. The reasons:

1. Not the most important reason for Athlone, but maybe the most significant for the long term, but it looked like the draft marshalls were much stricter. I talked to a few guys immediately after the race and about 3 of them told me they got 1 min penalties. That unscientific survey cheered my up no end. Bravo to TI. I didn't hear the race briefing, so was it emphasized in any different way? However, these cheating bastards still only got a 1 min penalty as far as I can make out. Not enough to do serious damage to their race.

2. There was no big headwind unlike Kilkee, so the temptation wasn't as bad.

3. Unlike Kilkee there was lots and lots and lots of waves, which made the roads much less busy.

In summary, well done TI & marshalls, keep it up and double or triple the penalties at least!

At the Pikeman in Rosslare no sign of any drafting from what I saw, again as Athlone not much wind and plenty of room on the road, but also think the fact that it is being much talked about helps (online discussions was mentioned in briefing!!)

Mr.Fred · 08-07-2013 8:40pm

mrbungle wrote: »

I had 1 dirtbag on my tail for the from 2k-5k.

Was waiting for him to pass me and get his number but a motorbike TI yellow carded him, then he had the gaul to argue with the official !! Should have done him again.

Needless to say he dropped off and didnt have the neck or ability to pass me after that. I had a mini mech at the start of the bike that got me for 3-4mins so was distgusted when this lowlife started towing me.

I had one sucking my back wheel aswell pissed me off so much I sat up and let him on. Passed him another 500M down the road for the same situation to occur again.. No real head wind but an annoying breeze on the way out nice spin on the way back though with a fast run into transition, which would've been faster but for the speed bumps.. loved those :rolleyes:

TI officials were workin for their bonus at this one. I've never heard them so vocal and organised. Great event though and a nice close run route through the town beer gardens cheering or possibly slagging athletes.

Definitely one for next year.

peter kern · 08-07-2013 11:29pm

It was a great participation race this year much better than the previous years me thinks.
and when the full swim is on its a great venue.
The junior race was class and a lot of work went into that race.Very profesional i have to say.

NorthernRaider · 13-07-2013 7:23pm

Was talking to a friend who did the 'Two Provinces' tri today. He mentioned that the trains were back and affected some of the top positions, yet seemingly no drafting penalties were applied. He was rightly pretty annoyed! I realize that these trains can develop somewhat organically (and some might be there inadvertently), but the motorcycle officials simply have to be more pro-active! If not, what can we do?

griffin100 · 13-07-2013 7:25pm

NorthernRaider wrote: »

Was talking to a friend who did the 'Two Provinces' tri today. He mentioned that the trains were back and affected some of the top positions, yet seemingly no drafting penalties were applied. He was rightly pretty annoyed! I realize that these trains can develop somewhat organically (and some might be there inadvertently), but the motorcycle officials simply have to be more pro-active! If not, what can we do?

Does every TI sanctioned race have to have motorbike marshals? I certainly seen none at the Pikeman last week (where there was no drafting that I could see).

Oryx · 13-07-2013 7:28pm

griffin100 wrote: »

Does every TI sanctioned race have to have motorbike marshals? I certainly seen none at the Pikeman last week (where there was no drafting that I could see).

No. Just NS

NorthernRaider · 13-07-2013 7:28pm

Don't think so, but why couldn't the point marshals be so empowered, assuming they've sufficient visibility?

Mr.Fred · 13-07-2013 7:54pm

It was interesting watching iron man cairns 2nd place lad was penalised fir draughting leader. 4 min stop and wait penalty. No waiting around till transition either. They weren't allowed pass yhe next time penalty box.

griffin100 · 13-07-2013 8:11pm

You could use fixed position marshals for draft busting but it could be hard to judge how long someone was in the draft zone if they happen to be overtaking when passing you. Also these marshals are usually there for safety reasons, draft busting would have to be secondary to their other jobs I would think.

Kurt Godel · 13-07-2013 11:15pm

NorthernRaider wrote: »

Was talking to a friend who did the 'Two Provinces' tri today. He mentioned that the trains were back and affected some of the top positions, yet seemingly no drafting penalties were applied. He was rightly pretty annoyed! I realize that these trains can develop somewhat organically (and some might be there inadvertently), but the motorcycle officials simply have to be more pro-active! If not, what can we do?

Lots of blatant drafting on evidence today. I saw quite a few club mates helping each other along. Stupid thing to do if you're a midpacker, you're only fooling yourself. However, when its up among the prizes... saw the leader on his bike return, with a sizeable lead over 2,3,4. Couldn't tell you the gap between each of 2,3,4, since I can't estimate to the tenth of a second. Plenty of others doing similar in the top 20. That's not sporting.

billy121 · 14-07-2013 12:09am

Had close to 40-50 sec's over the chasing "peleton" today on the bike entering T2, tried my best but got zapped in the last km on the run as I worked on my own on the bike so legs were tired. Drafting at every race I have competed at this summer, this is a joke!

NorthernRaider · 14-07-2013 12:43am

billy121 wrote: »

Had close to 40-50 sec's over the chasing "peleton" today on the bike entering T2, tried my best but got zapped in the last km on the run as I worked on my own on the bike so legs were tired. Drafting at every race I have competed at this summer, this is a joke!

That picture could, albeit not necessarily, suggest that Bill McCormack (and possibly many others) have good reason to be angry.

zico10 · 14-07-2013 2:34am

billy121 wrote: »

Had close to 40-50 sec's over the chasing "peleton" today on the bike entering T2, tried my best but got zapped in the last km on the run as I worked on my own on the bike so legs were tired. Drafting at every race I have competed at this summer, this is a joke!

Most of them have their feet out of their shoes. They are obviously not very far from transition, where it is acceptable to enter a draft zone. Like the other photos in this thread, it is unfair to the competitors pictured that you've posted them here, as they tell absolutely nothing about how the bunching came about. Well your photo actually tells a lot as they are clearly either coming out of or entering transition, and the feet out of shoes actually works in the athletes' defence.

BTH · 14-07-2013 7:06am

zico10 wrote: »

Most of them have their feet out of their shoes. They are obviously not very far from transition, where it is acceptable to enter a draft zone. Like the other photos in this thread, it is unfair to the competitors pictured that you've posted them here, as they tell absolutely nothing about how the bunching came about. Well your photo actually tells a lot as they are clearly either coming out of or entering transition, and the feet out of shoes actually works in the athletes' defence.

I agree with Zicos point here. A single photo does not tell the whole story and cannot be used as evidence of drafting. This photo is taken <300m from dismount and before a 90degree right turn. Bunching is to be expected.

However, I heard from more than one person the some/most of this little group rode the vast majority of the bike leg as a peleton wih barely 1 metre between wheels which is simply disgraceful. I haven't raced yet this year, but despite this I'm getting angrier and angrier about this issue. Ill be hoarse from roaring at these c*nts when I do race (if I'm anywhere near them!)

NorthernRaider · 14-07-2013 9:14am

billy121 wrote: »

Had close to 40-50 sec's over the chasing "peleton" today on the bike entering T2, tried my best but got zapped in the last km on the run as I worked on my own on the bike so legs were tired. Drafting at every race I have competed at this summer, this is a joke!

I personally think the fact that this situation has arisen is very sad. Here we have a clear, tangible example of an outstanding triathlete competing hard and fairly, yet being undermined by inaction on the part of officialdom. If this doesn't spur TI into action, then it is forsaking the very essence of its own sport.

griffin100 · 14-07-2013 9:33am

Ok devils advocate here

Look at it a different way. Drafting is breaking the rules, but if you don't get caught then it's a risk worth taking. If you get caught the the 'punishment' is often lesser than the benefits that you obtain. So why not draft?

The punishment needs to deter people from drafting, only then will they stop. But it also needs enforcement and I think this is where the main problem lies. Imagine if any of the races mentioned here did apply strict drafting rules, there'd be a separate thread here of riders whining about how they were unfaily treated blah blah blah........and that race might have trouble filling next year.

I think if you purposely draft if tells a lot about you character in life, let along triathlon.

Bambaata · 14-07-2013 11:10am

Ban a second offence drafter for 2 months. Actually for the rest of the year. Treat it like doping as i see it from the point of view that they are gaining a serious unfair advantage. There'll be no movement on this happening even with a 5/10/15min penalty as its only effecting one race. Name those banned too and hopefully these a$$holes will just leave the sport, they're not welcome.

peter kern · 14-07-2013 12:00pm

Bambaata wrote: »

Ban a second offence drafter for 2 months. Actually for the rest of the year. Treat it like doping as i see it from the point of view that they are gaining a serious unfair advantage. There'll be no movement on this happening even with a 5/10/15min penalty as its only effecting one race. Name those banned too and hopefully these a$$holes will just leave the sport, they're not welcome.

Good thinking but it might also be good to see it from the other side.
Drafting has become like drugs in cycling we are at a stage were mamy people feel that if they ride clean they lose time on other people, as most by now have the perception that the otheres draft.

Can it be tackled ?
yes , if it comes on the to do list to be tackled.

TI has very clearly shown that they can officiate very well people crosing the white line in transitons and takeing the helmet off too early and people are afreaid to infringe those rules as they know they will get done.

Not so with drafting, not much has been done.

So maybe it is aobut time to use the resources given to prevent to crossing the white line and opening helmelts too early into non drafting ( I would argue that big drafting groups have a far higher saftey risk than crossing a white line by 30 cm or opening a helmey 3 meters before the bike )

catweazle · 14-07-2013 12:11pm

billy121 wrote: »

Had close to 40-50 sec's over the chasing "peleton" today on the bike entering T2, tried my best but got zapped in the last km on the run as I worked on my own on the bike so legs were tired. Drafting at every race I have competed at this summer, this is a joke!

I am assuming from doing the maths who you are Billy, it will take more top guys like yourself to speak out to get any type of enforcement from TI. It must be a killer when there is prizes involved as well to see it happening

Bambaata · 14-07-2013 12:15pm

Its going to be very hard to police with marshalls. You'd really need about 15-20 bike officials which i cant see happening as i doubt they have those kind of resources. Thats why i think the punishment has to outweigh the reward so much that nobody dares do it. You would need a few more marshals on bikes though and maybe front load it for a few races to get it going.

Next time i identify drafters im calling them out after the race. I didnt have the bottle to do it at Roses Point but im sick of hearing the likes of this and its only by challenging them will anything happen. Id call on others who spot it to also approach these a$$holes after races. I know we cant name people here so confronting them is the only real option. I do it while im on the course but will also do it afterwards now too.

What's the bets i get done for drafting at my next race now :P

hypersonic · 14-07-2013 12:21pm

there are many solutions, but not enough people in the sport care about it being fair. but when you can buy time with an expensive bike, it's hard for a lot of people to get their knickers in a knot about drafting.

also triathlon, like marathon running is seen by many as a sport where you race yourself. Provided you don't brake your own rules, you can be happy if you improve your time.

NorthernRaider · 14-07-2013 12:59pm

"when you can buy time with an expensive bike, it's hard for a lot of people to get their knickers in a knot about drafting."

Fair point! In an ideal world, technology would be neutral (and gels banned!). However, in practice, that is pretty much impossible, while it should be said that with a bit of ingenuity (and hard work on flexibility) a large part of the benefits of a super-duper bike can be replicated by a humble road bike.

"also triathlon, like marathon running is seen by many as a sport where you race yourself. Provided you don't brake your own rules, you can be happy if you improve your time."

Strictly speaking, this is valid. Nonetheless, you're fooling yourself if your time this occasion is better than last because this time you tucked yourself in behind a strong cyclist. But, maybe some people want to fool themselves?

daithiK1 · 14-07-2013 1:22pm

fair play to Bill re. post

woody1 · 14-07-2013 1:29pm

hypersonic wrote: »

Provided you don't brake your own rules, you can be happy if you improve your time.

its cheating according to the rules of the sport your competing in.. so no you cant be happy .. but different strokes i guess.. i overtook a tractor and trailer yesterday because i was gonna get stuck behind it and i couldve got a nice easy tow off it at 30 something km an hour for a good 2 or 3 km.. but that didnt seem right to me and i shot by it on the outside... i dunno if that constitutes dangerous cycling but id rather get done for that than get the draft off the tractor... if i was 2 minutes faster because of that it wouldnt be a valid time to me
i dont have a mad carbon superbike , but fair play to those that do, if i had the cash id have one, i get great satisfaction from slowly taking down my own times and getting closer to those fellas..but i prefer to do it fairly..

Nwm2 · 14-07-2013 2:18pm

Maybe we need to take things into our own hands, if TI and Race Directors can't or won't sort it out.

hypersonic · 14-07-2013 2:26pm

where there's a will there's a way, so if triathletes want it fixed it will be sorted. but triathletes are very apathetic about it.
Until that changes I suspect we'll have to just suck it up and set our own standards and be happy with our own results.

zico10 · 14-07-2013 2:29pm

Nwm2 wrote: »

Maybe we need to take things into our own hands, if TI and Race Directors can't or won't sort it out.

What are you suggesting?

Bambaata · 14-07-2013 3:46pm

Just call them out after races. If i see anyone drafting and i can identify them I'll approach them afterwards and ask them politely why they were wheel sucking!

NorthernRaider · 14-07-2013 4:48pm

Bambaata wrote: »

Just call them out after races. If i see anyone drafting and i can identify them I'll approach them afterwards and ask them politely why they were wheel sucking!

That's ballsy! What has been the general reaction?

Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

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