Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forward

1235»

Comments

  • #202
    PirateShampoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭PirateShampoo


    Okay I'll ask you this, if Jon's parents were anybody else would his story have changed?


  • #203
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    PirateShampoo wrote: »
    Okay I'll ask you this, if Jon's parents were anybody else would his story have changed?

    Depends. We start the show with him being defined by being a bastard. It consumes him. To the point that he wont have sex with Ros because he doesnt want her to have a bastard.

    He starts Season 1 with a deep dislike of his identity and thinks going to the wall is the best he can do for himself. Honourable even without an honourable name.

    If he was anyone elses kid this might be different because he wouldnt be a bastard. But if he was still a bastard in Ned Starks care with different parents then his story would probably be the same up to the point that he found out who he was. But if he found out that (for example) the Blackfish was his father and Lyanna Stark his mother then he would have been no threat to Dany and her story would have changed. Plus he wouldnt have been a dragon rider (presumably) in the Night King battle.

    His parentage also dictated why Ned behaved the way he did. He lied to his wife for their whole marriage to hide who Jons parents were. And he put a question mark over his own honour because even the honourable Ned Stark could go off with a bed wench it seemed.

    There is also a nice parallel with Jon and Aemon. Both are Targaryens who took the black and rejected the throne.


  • #204
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    PirateShampoo wrote: »
    Okay I'll ask you this, if Jon's parents were anybody else would his story have changed?

    Apart from Ned not having to lie to everyone about it, him probably not going to the wall and ending up Lord commander, him probably getting killed by a dragon the second he touched it and if not him probably marrying and ruling alongside Danaerys?

    Not much no.


  • #205
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Ryan Thundering Whim wrote: »
    Not much no.

    Although it was so rushed in S8 I quite liked that Jon was having a bastard identity crisis in season 1, then an heir to the iron throne identity crisis in season 8.

    It was like : Oh noooo, why do I have to be a bastard!!
    followed by : Oh noooo, why do I have to be a King!!


  • #206
    Riddle101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    PirateShampoo wrote: »
    Okay I'll ask you this, if Jon's parents were anybody else would his story have changed?

    Definitely. The whole reason Ned kept his identity a secret was to protect him from Robert Baratheon. If he wasn't Rheagar and Lyanna's son then Ned would have no need to keep it a secret and Jon wouldn't have been a bastard. His whole story arc was built on him being a bastard.


  • #207
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Riddle101 wrote: »
    Definitely. The whole reason Ned kept his identity a secret was to protect him from Robert Baratheon. If he wasn't Rheagar and Lyanna's son then Ned would have no need to keep it a secret and Jon wouldn't have been a bastard. His whole story arc was built on him being a bastard.

    It literally defined him.

    Thats why the reveal was so huge, even before that drove other events.


  • #208
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    I think the argument is probably more framed as if he truly was a bastard son of Neds.

    Assuming he still went to the wall - which is still a credible development - the storyline doesn't change much at all. Daenerys ultimately came to resent that he had the love of the common people in the lands in which she had always imagined herself to be the great liberator, while she was viewed with suspicion and mistrust despite showing a willingness to sacrific everything to their cause.

    Him being a Targaryen obviously didn't help matters, but given what they ultimately made of, and how they used, his lineage, it would be extremely easy to have the exact same outcome, if that plot element was eliminated entirely, simply by placing a little more emphasis on her increasing hostility to his perceived status as undisputed King of the North, on both sides of the wall....as well as widespread sympathy among houses further south.

    A few individual scenes would need re-working, but the fundemental story over the course of the show could still work perfectly fine with Jon Snow never being anything other than Jon Snow, considering how it turned out. It had relevance to the plot, but not really any particularly significant amount of bearing, as many probably expected with the heavy build-up to the revelation that he was, in fact, the rightful heir to the throne.


  • #209
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    I think without him being a Targaryen Danaerys would have seen him and his sway over the Northerners as a way to consolidate her power rather than a threat to it. Even knowing he was, her solution, the only thing she ever begged for was for him to keep it total secret and rule with her. Now that probably wouldn't have lasted (she cray) but she could clearly see his prowess and popularity since she arrived last season, but it was only when he revealed his identity that her instinctive unfiltered reaction was "You have a better claim to the throne!"

    And again, killed by a dragon a bunch of times.


  • #210
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Ah yeah, I completely agree with that aspect as the show played out, but I think if Jon Snow was only ever Jon Snow, they could exploit that angle easily enough to entirely supplant the Targaryen side of it with very little change to the plot we did get.

    Jon still pledging his undying allegiance, but Daenerys increasingly incensed by the knowledge that the north, and even beyond, will only ever follow Jon - even if it's under her banner, she's still the sort to demand a pledge of total allegiance rather than simple loyalty by proxy like most other rulers demand.

    Not to mention, agrieved by the lukewarm to indifferent reception at best, thinly-veiled hostility at worst, from the house lords themselves in the north and some stretching down south.

    Would easily tie into her tendency towards paranoia, combined with a possible increasing detachment from reality/slow descent that begins with increasingly irrational behavior and teeters into actual madness, not at all difficult for her to see imaginary coups, plots against her, where none existed, and so on, no matter how much Jon pledged his undying fealty or devotion to her.

    Still culminating in the decision to rule by abject fear rather than win the hearts and minds of Westeros. Really, it's not laid out a huge amount different in the actual show, but the fact that Jon is Targaryen is the real tipping point for sure.... but it could be easily reframed if that weren't the case.


  • Advertisement
  • #211
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    Ah yeah, I completely agree with that aspect as the show played out, but I think if Jon Snow was only ever Jon Snow, they could exploit that angle easily enough to entirely supplant the Targaryen side of it with very little change to the plot we did get.

    Jon still pledging his undying allegiance, but Daenerys increasingly incensed by the knowledge that the north, and even beyond, will only ever follow Jon - even if it's under her banner, she's still the sort to demand a pledge of total allegiance rather than simple loyalty by proxy like most other rulers demand.

    Not to mention, agrieved by the lukewarm to indifferent reception at best, thinly-veiled hostility at worst, from the house lords themselves in the north and some stretching down south.

    Would easily tie into her tendency towards paranoia, combined with a possible increasing detachment from reality/slow descent that begins with increasingly irrational behavior and teeters into actual madness, not at all difficult for her to see imaginary coups, plots against her, where none existed, and so on, no matter how much Jon pledged his undying fealty or devotion to her.

    Still culminating in the decision to rule by abject fear rather than win the hearts and minds of Westeros. Really, it's not laid out a huge amount different in the actual show, but the fact that Jon is Targaryen is the real tipping point for sure.... but it could be easily reframed if that weren't the case.

    There is also the love aspect between Jon and Dany that would be hard to write out of it without their family connection. Aside from betraying her through the secret, he also turned down her romantic advances once he found out she was his aunt. It is not easy to drop in another issue where he keeps the same feelings for her, but they can’t be with each other. Jon turning her down impacts her mental state and cuts off the obvious marriage option for them, that would have resolved a lot of her issues.


  • #212
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Ok let's say he's just regular old Jon Snow, bastard of Ned Stark and some random woman. Goes to the wall (which yeah now i think about it, probably would have happened anyway) etc etc.

    Then where's Lyanna?

    Married to Robert? Then where's Cersei? Who pushes Bran out a window?

    Not married to Robert, tells the truth, undermines the whole rebellion?

    Never ran off with Rhaegar? Then where's the rebellion, who's on the throne? Ok there's a good chance Aerys would have been rebelled against anyway but who knows when and how.

    Him being in existence, as a Stark x Targaryen has set the whole thing in motion before the audience even arrives.

    I mean if we're getting to the point of "if Jon Snow were just a bastard but Lyanna had died in childbirth anyways and.." then we're really in if my auntie had a bollocks territory!


  • #213
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Well, in the context of it being a show in which Jon Snow was genuinely just Ned's bastard, there are two options. We'd still be assuming that Lyanna had run away with Rhaegar, kick starting the war.

    a) Lyanna has a child that isn't Jon - that though may require some slight reworking of the plot if it were to be relevant to matters going forward. Or not, if it wasn't. Come to think of it, rather than being Roberts bastard, Gendry Baratheon could easily slot in here as Aegon Targaryen, unaware of his true heritage.

    His lineage in the actual show has very little bearing on the plot or the ultimate outcome either.

    b) Lyanna has no child but dies/is pregnant but dies at the Tower of Joy at the end of the war anyway - could have no relevance to the plot (eg, kills herself after learning Rhaegar has fallen at the Trident) or a lot of relevance later on down the line (a foul-play death akin to the Mountain killing Elia Martell and Oberyn's subsequent quest years later to find justice, just in a different format/plot direction)

    Either way though, the story could easily progress more or less the same as it in the show with Jon being plain old Jon Snow/Stark. It's not really until the end of S7/through the short S8 that it has any real bearing on the plot and even then they kept it largely quite simple.


  • #214
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    Well, in the context of it being a show in which Jon Snow was genuinely just Ned's bastard, there are two options. We'd still be assuming that Lyanna had run away with Rhaegar, kick starting the war.

    a) Lyanna has a child that isn't Jon - that though may require some slight reworking of the plot if it were to be relevant to matters going forward. Or not, if it wasn't. Come to think of it, rather than being Roberts bastard, Gendry Baratheon could easily slot in here as Aegon Targaryen, unaware of his true heritage.

    His lineage in the actual show has very little bearing on the plot or the ultimate outcome either.

    b) Lyanna has no child but dies/is pregnant but dies at the Tower of Joy at the end of the war anyway - could have no relevance to the plot (eg, kills herself after learning Rhaegar has fallen at the Trident) or a lot of relevance later on down the line (a foul-play death akin to the Mountain killing Elia Martell and Oberyn's subsequent quest years later to find justice, just in a different format/plot direction)

    Either way though, the story could easily progress more or less the same as it in the show with Jon being plain old Jon Snow/Stark. It's not really until the end of S7/through the short S8 that it has any real bearing on the plot and even then they kept it largely quite simple.

    I think you can make the claim that you can write your way around nearly every plot line or backstory in the show and go as far as to write out most non-central characters and still make the story function, however by doing that it will generally take away from the overall quality.

    For someone who was very vocal about not being happy with the amount of development of Dany's turn, this seems like a strange argument to make.


  • #215
    Tired Gardener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Tired Gardener


    Meh.

    Hard to muster any strong feelings towards the end, I find that my investment in the show fell off this season.

    D&D will no doubt destroy what is left of Star Wars.

    Glad they aren't involved in the upcoming Dune film.

    Will be nice to see how GRRM makes the ending palatable, that is if he actually does the next two books.


Advertisement