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Bitcoin - ###Mod Note in 1st Post - Please Read###

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    #32
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    the groutch wrote: »
    I'd sooner invest in Iraqi Dinars than go near this
    Why what's so great about Iraqi food?


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    #33
    donutface
    Registered Users Posts: 461 ✭✭donutface


    the groutch wrote: »
    I'd sooner invest in Iraqi Dinars than go near this

    Long term investment is definitely not too smart, its a bubble. But I dont see the currency collapsing within the next couple of days either. 1000 bitcoins was on the market last december for $50. If you had bought it you would have been worth $30,000 today :(


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    #34
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    http://www.quora.com/Bitcoin/Is-the-cryptocurrency-Bitcoin-a-good-idea
    evading legal tender law for any sorts of significant business transactions in the US will have inevitable negative consequences. I'm personally indifferent to the assurances of Bitcoin and other techno-currency startups to the contrary. Any sort of barter or "time-trading" transaction is taxable.

    Even if you can find some kind of brilliant legal loophole, the government will change the law and throw you in jail anyway.


    ....


    Theft: In its current form, the Bitcoin client stores your Bitcoin addresses in an unencrypted wallet.dat file. It's like a bearer bond, anyone who gets access to read that file (or a backup copy of it that you might have made) gets access to your money.


    Trust: Currently there are a several places that will hold your Bitcoin for you, including brokers (MtGox.com), payment systems (MyBitcoin.com) and online casinos (dragons.tl). If one of them gets hacked (or disappears), there's going to be some unhappy people around.


    Ownership: So the founder ... Satoshi. Anybody met him? And who today has the 4.7 million BTC already "minted" (bitcoinwatch.com)? That's 22% of the entire Bitcoin currency that will ever be issued.



    ....
    The excitement about Bitcoin prove that people have not learned from the failures of past digital currencies, from DigiCash to CyberCash, Beenz, Flooz
    ...There are many reasons why a cipher can be "reliable" as a marker of value, but many more reasons why it will not preserve the value it represents.

    The generation of new Bitcoin blocks is a large, but arbitrarily finite, computational challenge. If the rarity of block solutions is n today, simply because of Moore's Law, it will be (n/2)/2 two years later -- twice as much computational power will be available at half the price every two years. The lowering of the number of BTCs rewarded every four years doesn't keep up with the diminishing cost of solving the block equation. The owners of initial Bitcoins would retain a higher value or, in the case of a failure of the currency, be left holding worthless BTCs. Arguments that the Bitcoin currency are immune from a bank run are specious, because the value of the "proof of work" represented by the BTC is relative to the average computational power available in the global economy and not the financial soundness of a guarantor.

    Arguments about the strength of the crypto, based on comparisons to key sizes in public key cryptography, are overly optimistic about the strength of cryptography. These claims of virtually infinite security ignore the practices perfected by code-breakers, of picking targets and the application of factoring machines to targets, that substantially decrease the security of a message -- or a proof of work. This amplifies the erosion of value due to Moore's Law and raises the potential for a failure of the currency due to lack of confidence. Many organizations in the world have sufficient compute capacity to crack multiple Bitcoin blocks -- and you only have to break a few to undermine the value of the whole system.

    are bitcoins more than a libertarian's / drug dealers way to evade tax / authorities ?


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    #35
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The are 6.5 million bitcoins now out of a possible 21 million
    2013 half of the total supply will have been generated, and by 2017, 3/4 will have been generated.


    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees minimu Transaction fees are 0.01 BTC

    also https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/ArtForz
    ArtForz is a regular on #bitcoin-dev. He was the first person to mine with GPUs, using private mining code that he wrote himself. He continues to hold a high percentage of network computation power (~25%),

    So the creator holds 22% of the bitcoins and another user makes maybe 25% of them :eek:


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    #36
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Golobulus wrote: »
    ArtForz's times are long over, someone should update this wikipedia page because it's only causing confusion.
    It's not wikipedia , it's the bitcoin wiki This page was last modified on 14 January 2011, at 11:52.
    Also, where did you get this info that the creator holds 22% of coins? The coins from the very first blocks very distributed straight away among the coders.
    from the link I posted :rolleyes:


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    #37
    The_Thing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭The_Thing


    Steve Gibson of www.grc.com did a podcast on this a while back.

    Here's his "Security Now" Page listing all his podcasts:
    http://www.grc.com/securitynow.htm

    BitCoin podcast:
    http://media.grc.com/sn/sn-287.mp3


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    #38
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The_Thing wrote: »
    BitCoin podcast:
    http://media.grc.com/sn/sn-287.mp3
    http://www.grc.com/sn/sn-287.htm for the text version - starts half way down


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    #39
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/14/bitcoin_slump/
    Following last week’s call by US senators for an investigation into virtual crypto-currency Bitcoin, its value is slumping.

    According to DailyTech, Bitcoins last Friday suffered more than 30 percent depreciation in value – a considerable fall given that the currency’s architecture is designed to inflate its value over time.

    The slump could reflect a change in attitude among holders of Bitcoins: if the currency were to become less attractive to pay for illegal drugs, then dealers and their customers would dump their Bitcoins in favour of some other medium.

    Being dumped by PayPal won’t have helped either. As DailyTech pointed out, PayPal has a policy against virtual currencies, so by enforcing the policy, PayPal has made it harder to trade Bitcoins.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bitcoin is another CIA psy-op...there, i said it..


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    #41
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    It smells like your common or garden pyramid scheme. The first few in get the most benefit, then more and more people are needed to keep it going, and each level of the pyramid has an incentive to get more in underneath them.

    I'm not saying that's what it is, but thats what it smells like.


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    #42
    blubloblu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭blubloblu


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    It smells like your common or garden pyramid scheme. The first few in get the most benefit, then more and more people are needed to keep it going, and each level of the pyramid has an incentive to get more in underneath them.

    I'm not saying that's what it is, but thats what it smells like.

    What's the incentive to get more people in beneath you?


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    #43
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    blubloblu wrote: »
    What's the incentive to get more people in beneath you?
    Looks like I'm not the only one to get that feeling.
    The problem with that model is that it entices people into the technology on the implied promise that they will make money from future users. That is not all that Bitcoin does in theory; it's also potentially a system for processing payments conveniently online.

    But the problem is that the promise of future wealth is presently such a driving force behind Bitcoin's adoption that even though the technology has the potential not to be a scam, it ends up in practice working almost wholly as a pyramid scheme.

    You buy and hold Bitocins at present only because you hope to sell them higher to people in the future willing to pay more, knowing it's backed by nothing. That's the essence of a pyramid scheme. But what complicates things is that there are technically other reasons to buy (and not hold) Bitcoins: for example, you might make payments with them to people around the world, for goods and services. The problem, in practical terms, is that Bitcoin isn't a very convenient system for making payments for most law-abiding people at present. That's what led me to say on Fatwallet that the only people buying Bitcoins, in practice, appear to be (1) speculators banking on a pyramid scheme, (2) people who want Bitcoins in order to make payments for illegal things that PayPal and similar payment-processors would prohibit, like drugs and illegal forms of pornography, and (3) ideologues who have been convinced that Bitcoin fits their anti-government worldview. There's literally nobody else buying Bitcoins at present, or at least that's true with very few exceptions.

    Now, promoters of Bitcoin tend to say that what much of what I've said is true of gold and other precious metals; if Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme, they say, so are these other instruments. And so, they say, are dollars. They're right in formal terms, but only in formal terms; the analogy ignores all cultural history and institutional factors. And in any event, the analogy just shows a problem with gold and other precious metals. The last thing rational investors need is another such way of storing value, particularly when the new vessel is immature, exists in a very thin market, and is subject to technical problems and market-manipulation.

    To summarize, the perversion of Bitcoin is that it has attracted a small core following, based on the way it was designed, that is based mostly on ideology and on its function as a pyramid scheme. That is unfortunate, because it's a legitimately interesting technology that could have a role in simplifying online payments. In the meantime, it would be a horrible mistake to "invest" in Bitcoins unless you think you're very good at playing a period scheme -- and also if you think it won't be regulated or stopped for being exactly that sort of scam, functionally and substantively. And it could indeed be regulated successfully, notwithstanding all the protestations of marginally savvy Bitcoin users to the contrary.
    Also, I haven't poked around into the background too deeply yet but I'd have serious concerns about letting software crunch heavy crypto in a peer to peer network on my computer without knowing very exactly what it's doing.


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    #44
    red menace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭red menace


    http://gawker.com/5811868/a-500000-geek-cyberheist
    medium_0614_bitcoin.jpgYesterday, a guy woke up to find that nearly $500,000-worth of virtual cash had been plucked from his computer by a thief. The first of the big Bitcoin heists is upon us! If you've spent any time in the nerdier parts of the internet in recent months, you know that Bitcoin is the hyper-trendy, virtual currency championed by geek libertarians, hackers and drug dealers. Completely decentralized, open-source, and nearly anonymous, Bitcoin functions essentially as digital cash. Users can store their bitcoins in an electronic wallet file on their computer, as opposed to in a bank or Paypal account. Unfortunately, like cash, Bitcoins are gone forever if they're stolen or the computer they're on is destroyed.
    A high-rolling geek who goes by the handle Allinvain claims that on Monday afternoon, someone pilfered 25,000 Bitcoins from his wallet file and deposited them into another anonymous account. At the current exchange rate of $18.72 per Bitcoin, that's about $467,500. (Though the exchange rate has reached as high as ~$29 in recent days.)
    "I feel like killing myself now," an anguished Allinvain wrote on the Bitcoin forums after discovering the theft. He was an early adopter of Bitcoin back in 2010 and had held onto his currency from when it was worth just pennies. "I remember watching the price like a hawk," he writes. His plan was to cash out eventually and use his earnings to open up a Bitcoin business. "Needless to say, I feel like I have lost faith in Bitcion," he wrote.
    Allinvain says that he had noticed some strange activity with his computer that suggests it had been hacked. Although he can't rule out that someone had physically stolen his Bitcoin wallet file from his computer.
    Geeks everywhere are in an uproar over the theft, debating whether it was made possible by a Bitcoin security flaw or stupidity on the part of Allinvain. Another forum user said he had been hit by a hacker who had transferred his Bitcoins to the same account that was used to empty Allinvain's, which has led to speculation that a serial Bitcoin robber is on the loose.
    "That's one thing about bitcoins. There's no FDIC or SIPC watching your back," wrote a commenter on Hacker News. "It's the wild west with train robberies and stage coach heists in all."


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    #45
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    The_Thing wrote: »
    Steve Gibson of www.grc.com did a podcast on this a while back.

    Here's his "Security Now" Page listing all his podcasts:
    http://www.grc.com/securitynow.htm

    BitCoin podcast:
    http://media.grc.com/sn/sn-287.mp3

    +1

    I listen to EVERY "Security Now" podcast from Steve in GRC.

    However, I also appreciate that the nerd idealism doesn't always translate in the real world.

    Yes, bitcoin is a secure and transparent currency for the common user.
    But I work in the anti-fraud and anti-money laundering sector, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of very wealthy countries/currencies/sectors don't start putting pressure on this unregulated currency.

    The artificial inflation of this bit coin currency is probably due to illegal money laundering across country boundaries.
    As soon as there's a legal crackdown, the exchange rate of real currency to bitcoin currency will collapse to at least parity I imagine.


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    #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Feels like this should have just been tied to the value of the dollar for a few years and let the intentions of the currency develop.. Anonymous and free transactions. The skepticism with who got rich from the beginnings along with how easy it is to lose a fortune as seen above will kill it.

    That lad who got robbed was worth half a million because he got in early.. How can anyone believe that will turn into a genuine currency. He can't even begin to try find his money again because a trail doesn't exist.


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    #47
    laugh
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭laugh


    Someone is a bigger shill than that Craig Doyle fella.


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    #48
    bonzodog2
    Registered Users Posts: 6,210 ✭✭✭bonzodog2


    Man says he lost $500,000 in virtual currency heist - article on TheRegister today


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    #49
    Orando Broom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,351 ✭✭✭Orando Broom


    Can they be acquired without you handing over an actual currency? If they are exchanged for work then there is no real problem. A lot of guys sitting at home, unemployed, on message boards getting nothing, maybe the bitcoin is worth a punt.

    I am not very tech savvy so I could be waay off the reservation here.


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    #50
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Orando Broom wrote: »
    Can they be acquired without you handing over an actual currency?.

    You can 'mine' them. You essentially download a program and let it solve algorithms on your computer in the hopes it'll generate a bitcoin or two.

    There's also a site that'll give you a half a bitcoin for free, can't remember which site though.


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    #51
    Mantel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Mantel


    Seachmall wrote: »
    You can 'mine' them. You essentially download a program and let it solve algorithms on your computer in the hopes it'll generate a bitcoin or two.

    There's also a site that'll give you a half a bitcoin for free, can't remember which site though.

    All the bitcoin generation has moved to mining pools and GPU power, mining with just CPU is really a waste of time, you'd be lucky to get a single bitcoin in a month especially when your up against setups like this one.. If you've got a decent GPU setup for gaming then joining a pool will show some small results fairly fast.
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/14/bitcoin_slump/

    That article is pretty ****ty tbh, that 30% decrease didn't really take in to account the massive value increase that happened bitcoins in the days before that and I doubt the decrease was due to the reason they state but more to do with market trying to stablise itself (people selling off bitcoins once it hit a price that looked good for them to sell at). The price went from $10 to $28 in a few days and hasn't dipped much below $19 in the last two days it looks to be fairly stable at the moment, stable for the bitcoin market that is. If it stays around a price point for a day people start saying it's stablised.


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    #52
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldcz92dsP71qciaguo1_500.jpg


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    #53
    Standard Toaster
    Registered Users Posts: 10,256 ✭✭✭✭Standard Toaster


    The name's Lanley. Lyle Lanley. And I come before you good people tonight with an idea. Probably the greatest... Aw, it's not for you. It's more of a Shelbyville idea.


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    #54
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    If anybody had invested in bitcoin when this thread started, they would today be a lot worse off. The value has fallen significantly since the 'hack'.

    Perfect time to buy bitcoin, then!


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    #55
    Mezcita
    Registered Users Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭Mezcita


    later10 wrote: »
    If anybody had invested in bitcoin when this thread started, they would today be a lot worse off.

    No they wouldn't. Price when the thread first started at the end of December 2010 was $0.3 per bitcoin. Current price is close to $15.00
    later10 wrote: »

    The value has fallen significantly since the 'hack'.

    Perfect time to buy bitcoin, then!

    Before the hack it was close to $30.00 Price is now around $15.00. It's ultra volatile.

    http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg180zvztgCzm1g10zm2g25


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    #56
    yutta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭yutta


    Mezcita wrote: »
    No they wouldn't. Price when the thread first started at the end of December 2010 was $0.3 per bitcoin. Current price is close to $15.00



    Before the hack it was close to $30.00 Price is now around $15.00. It's ultra volatile.

    http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg180zvztgCzm1g10zm2g25

    It may be ultra volatile, but it's still a valid currency. You can offset against volatility by buying bitcoin futures.


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    #57
    alb
    Registered Users Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭alb


    Dug this up as it's hilarious reading back on the posts from 3 years ago now, I hope anyone involved back then still has a few coins for themselves :) worth quite a bit now.

    I've been posting about the economic and speculative side of Bitcoin a bit on the investments forum lately but I'm wondering are there any bricks and mortar shops/pubs etc in Dublin, or even elsewhere in Ireland accepting Bitcoin yet? Anyone know of any?


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    #58
    The One Who Knocks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,301 ✭✭✭The One Who Knocks


    alb wrote: »
    Dug this up as it's hilarious reading back on the posts from 3 years ago now, I hope anyone involved back then still has a few coins for themselves :) worth quite a bit now.

    I've been posting about the economic and speculative side of Bitcoin a bit on the investments forum lately but I'm wondering are there any bricks and mortar shops/pubs etc in Dublin, or even elsewhere in Ireland accepting Bitcoin yet? Anyone know of any?

    I think what you're trying to say is....
    slasher_65 wrote: »
    Smells like a scam to me.
    digme wrote: »
    bitcoin owner may own 1.5 million bitcoins.This is the funniest thing I've heard all year.If you are retarded enough to have
    some of these I'd sell them right now as you are getting taken for a ride.You can bet your ass he's the one selling them for 30 dollars a pop to gullible idiots. So 30 times 1.6 million is a lot of money,obviously he's not selling them all but he is offloading them at a nice rate for a new yacht or something along those lines.
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    pyramid scheme
    The Scientician wrote: »
    Essentially. It's amazing reading up on it. Some people fervently believe this is gonna protect them from economic woes, government tyranny etc. and help them buy weed anonymously :D .
    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    wonderful idea in theory but after they reach a high value and people stop buying them all the people who got in early and mined coins will start selling them , the price will keep falling as everyone sells their coins and it will be dead again in 3-4 years
    blubloblu wrote: »
    It pretty much is, but not intentionally. If people just use it to speculate, it's essentially a ponzi scheme. If it's used as a currency, it actually has potential, but this isn't happening on any kind of scale right now.
    digme wrote: »
    I'll give you a piece of paper if you run around the block, same idea....
    might aswell be selling dingle berries on farmville for real money.....
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    if it's used as a currency

    the revenue will take an interest, like they have done with every other medium of transfer so far

    if someone figures out a better algorithm the currency will be worthless

    NSA could pull the plug if they wanted using spare computer time

    if it turns out that a botnet is being used to generate them then the PR will kill it
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Bitcoin is another CIA psy-op...there, i said it..
    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    It smells like your common or garden pyramid scheme. The first few in get the most benefit, then more and more people are needed to keep it going, and each level of the pyramid has an incentive to get more in underneath them.

    I'm not saying that's what it is, but thats what it smells like.


    ...WRONG!

    :D


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    #59
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    The One Who Knocks wrote: »
    I think what you're trying to say is....





















    ...WRONG!

    :D

    Ich don't think so - Just because there is a fools gold rush now doesn't mean it'll last.

    It's a currency based on ....... nothing only supply and demand.

    It's a global pyramid scheme


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    #60
    Sh1tbag OToole
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,973 ✭✭✭Sh1tbag OToole


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Ich don't think so - Just because there is a fools gold rush now doesn't mean it'll last.

    It's a currency based on ....... nothing only supply and demand.

    It's a global pyramid scheme

    Normal currencies like Euro and Dollar are also based only on supply and demand


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    #61
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    It's a currency based on ....... nothing only supply and demand

    Like all FIAT currency then except that bitcoin has a finite production run.


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