Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

tunney · 26-08-2013 10:37am

boodiebhoy wrote: »

As a newbie I joined a club at start of the year and have been warned by the club about drafting right from the start. Maybe clubs could play a bigger role in discouraging their members from drafting.

Some clubs promote drafting.

longshank · 26-08-2013 11:16am

ray o wrote: »

I was talking with a clubmate last night. He went off in wave 1 yesterday and he swam sub 24. He said he was on the feet of a swimmer most of the way from the start but about 50-70 yards from the turn the feet disappeared. He looked ahead and to both sides but could not see where he had gone. Couple of seconds later the person popped up on the other side of the center boom.

I don't think there are many courses where someone would be able to cheat in this manner - thinking about it it's such a simple thing to do on that course if you want to cheat. It's one for the organisers to be aware of next year - have plenty of kayaks positioned 200m or so from the turnaround on both sides

How some people can take satisfaction from competing by cheating is just something I dont comprehend, but there seems to be no shortage of people who have no moral compass whatsoever.

hardCopy · 26-08-2013 12:40pm

longshank wrote: »

How some people can take satisfaction from competing by cheating is just something I dont comprehend, but there seems to be no shortage of people who have no moral compass whatsoever.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but in many sports cheating is considered part of the game. In rugby it's part of a back row forward's job description to test the referee at every opportunity and cheat until your caught, this could probably be eliminated if sin-bins were handed out more readily but it's really just seen as part of the game. In race walking they ignore the fact that racers are technically running and only call it when it's visible to the naked eye. Ice hockey penalises fighting but not so much that it'll ever be removed from the game.

Why do people see drafting in triathlon as this big dirty thing?

I came to triathlon from rugby, where I was a was a persistent and proud cheat, I'd pull jerseys, lie off side, hold onto the ball, hold onto the opposition, trip people up, whatever I could do to get an edge or even just annoy someone for the craic. Neil Back was a hero of mine. (I drew the line at what I considered dirty: gouging, biting etc.)

As a triathlete I never draft, if someone passes me and pulls in right in front I'll deliberately drop back rather than take my time about it. I'm not sure why I view this differently to rugby, but I do.

For some reason I have a different attitude to tri than I did to rugby and the more I think about it the more it seems logical to draft. It's effective, it's badly policed and the sanctions are arguably less than the benefit of the act.

If the tri community really wants to stop drafting then the penalty should be large enough that it's pretty much impossible to podium if you're caught, it should also be more difficult to get away with of course but it costs nothing to up the penalties. If the detection and punishment is minimal it's easy to see it as de-facto acceptance of drafting, as long as you don't take the piss.

Chartsengrafs · 26-08-2013 1:31pm

tunney wrote: »

Some clubs promote drafting.

I find that very hard to believe?

longshank · 26-08-2013 2:07pm

hardCopy wrote: »

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but in many sports cheating is considered part of the game. In rugby it's part of a back row forward's job description to test the referee at every opportunity and cheat until your caught, this could probably be eliminated if sin-bins were handed out more readily but it's really just seen as part of the game. In race walking they ignore the fact that racers are technically running and only call it when it's visible to the naked eye. Ice hockey penalises fighting but not so much that it'll ever be removed from the game.

Why do people see drafting in triathlon as this big dirty thing?

I came to triathlon from rugby, where I was a was a persistent and proud cheat, I'd pull jerseys, lie off side, hold onto the ball, hold onto the opposition, trip people up, whatever I could do to get an edge or even just annoy someone for the craic. Neil Back was a hero of mine. (I drew the line at what I considered dirty: gouging, biting etc.)

As a triathlete I never draft, if someone passes me and pulls in right in front I'll deliberately drop back rather than take my time about it. I'm not sure why I view this differently to rugby, but I do.

For some reason I have a different attitude to tri than I did to rugby and the more I think about it the more it seems logical to draft. It's effective, it's badly policed and the sanctions are arguably less than the benefit of the act.

If the tri community really wants to stop drafting then the penalty should be large enough that it's pretty much impossible to podium if you're caught, it should also be more difficult to get away with of course but it costs nothing to up the penalties. If the detection and punishment is minimal it's easy to see it as de-facto acceptance of drafting, as long as you don't take the piss.

I get ur point but I think there is a big difference between a tactical team sport like rugby where the law is the referees interpretation and you play accordingly and one like triathlon where the rules are very clear and you either decide to cheat or u dont. if u want to talk about organised cheating i think there are much better examples in the media recently from the gaa! Maybe it comes down to the ethos of the sport?

Shedite27 · 26-08-2013 4:27pm

longshank wrote: »

I get ur point but I think there is a big difference between a tactical team sport like rugby where the law is the referees interpretation and you play accordingly and one like triathlon where the rules are very clear and you either decide to cheat or u dont. if u want to talk about organised cheating i think there are much better examples in the media recently from the gaa! Maybe it comes down to the ethos of the sport?

Totally agree, but Triathlon has referees, they just aren't imposing the penalties.

In competitive sports, giving away frees is part of the game. If you are a defender who never gives away a free, you probably aren't tackling as hard as you could be. Similarly in tri, if you never get caught drafting, chances are you aren't pushing as far as you could be.

It's not a popular opinion, but that's the reality.

P2C · 26-08-2013 4:32pm

most of the Age group races in Europe are ITU format for all groups. Maybe we could solve the drafting issue by running a series of ITU format races for the top end . Maybe for the national series races or have a separate series

Again 1000 people in yesterdays race on a 8km bike circuit. Had to be impossible not to get caught in a group.

Race organisation at the moment is about how much money club's, private companies, charities and other sports can make from running an triathlon. How many people they can get in an event. If it wasn't why would they bother running races.

The smaller triathlons I have competed in this year with 100-150 in the race seem to have less of a problem with drafting

hardCopy · 26-08-2013 4:39pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

Totally agree, but Triathlon has referees, they just aren't imposing the penalties.

In competitive sports, giving away frees is part of the game. If you are a defender who never gives away a free, you probably aren't tackling as hard as you could be. Similarly in tri, if you never get caught drafting, chances are you aren't pushing as far as you could be.

It's not a popular opinion, but that's the reality.

A certain amount of foul play is expected in sports like rugby and GAA, the governing bodies could dish out red cards for every clumsy tackle but that would remove the physicality that's always been part of those game.

Breaking someone's leg is not in the spirit of the game so over the top violence is harshly punished and the effect on your team's chances of success is immediate and long lasting. E.g. a red card and/or suspension.

A late hit or a shoulder to the chest is considered a foul but will usually only incur a yellow card and as such it's seen as a legitimate tactic to be used sparingly.

Why are physical players considered to be street-smart in field sports but triathletes who draft are considered to be morally corrupt.

If drafting is such a bad offence and so outside the spirit of the sport then why use time penalties at all, why not just DQ anyone who drafts?

Kurt Godel · 26-08-2013 4:53pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

Totally agree, but Triathlon has referees, they just aren't imposing the penalties.

In competitive sports, giving away frees is part of the game. If you are a defender who never gives away a free, you probably aren't tackling as hard as you could be. Similarly in tri, if you never get caught drafting, chances are you aren't pushing as far as you could be.

It's not a popular opinion, but that's the reality.

Comparing to other sports (I presume you mean "team sports" when you refer to "competitive sports") is a red herring. Tackling and free's aren't part of Triathlon. Drafting is much closer compared to cutting a corner or sitting out a lap. It's not for the benefit of any team, its a direct cheat on the other competitors (who may well be pushing as far as they can be).

Aside from that, I've only done one season of Tri's, but I note a lot less drafting in any races where Eamonn T gave a loud and clear race briefing demonstrating what 10 meters is and emphasising penalties and DQ's will be handed out. Much less drafting in those races IMO.

miller82 · 26-08-2013 5:34pm

tunney wrote: »

Some clubs promote drafting.

That's some statement

jamescantwell · 26-08-2013 7:30pm

doin fermoy tri last wk, i was about 8 or 9 metres from the guy in front of me and he had literally just overtaken me and was pulling away...then this absolute IDIOT who is a prominent young triathlete on the scene winning races all year passed me and shouted into my face "no drafting...no drafting!" i felt like clocking him because 1) i wasnt drafting( the guy was still pulling out of my 'box')
2) its up to T.I. officials to warn of the rules, not some arrogant fool, who's streets ahead of most of the competitors in terms of talent.

i completely understand that its in the rules but its virtually impossible to remain 100% draft free during a race. i agree with some comments that the rules are too soft but i think people are going way over the top re. this issue...its like diving in soccer and pulling and dragging in gaelic football, its always been there and always will until T.I. gets v tough on it and sorts out mass starts.

Huff n Puff · 26-08-2013 7:56pm

jamescantwell wrote: »

doin fermoy tri last wk, i was about 8 or 9 metres from the guy in front of me and he had literally just overtaken me and was pulling away...then this absolute IDIOT who is a prominent young triathlete on the scene winning races all year passed me and shouted into my face "no drafting...no drafting!" i felt like clocking him because 1) i wasnt drafting( the guy was still pulling out of my 'box')
2) its up to T.I. officials to warn of the rules, not some arrogant fool, who's streets ahead of most of the competitors in terms of talent.

Bit harsh no?! You might need to chill out a little.

Think we all know who you are talking about. You have done everything bar name him.

I let drafting roars out of me the whole time too, but sure I am probably an absolute IDIOT and arrogant fool too. Usually when you are about to overtake people you can see them from a long distance away so you get a good idea of what is going on up ahead. He may or may not have been right but either way you should probably lighten up a bit.

jamescantwell · 26-08-2013 8:14pm

TBH i reckon its the lads who shout at other triathletes are the ones that need to chill out..but yea maybe i need to lighten up too, and ill take ur advice on board huff and puff

i generally try to go around tri in good humour and encourage other triathletes at all levels so i dont like to see lads shouting on the course....its up to motorbike officials to enforce the rules, not other triathletes.

Solobally8 · 26-08-2013 8:16pm

Huff n Puff wrote: »

I let drafting roars out of me the whole time too, but sure I am probably an absolute IDIOT and arrogant fool too.

Probably?

joking, I swear

Huff n Puff · 26-08-2013 8:24pm

jamescantwell wrote: »

TBH i reckon its the lads who shout at other triathletes are the ones that need to chill out..but yea maybe i need to lighten up too, and ill take ur advice on board huff and puff i generally try to go around tri in good humour and encourage other triathletes at all levels so i dont like to see lads shouting on the course....its up to motorbike officials to enforce the rules, not other triathletes.

Strangely enough, I always regret shouting out on the course. But it is so easy to lose the cool when you are bursting a gut to catch people in a 'pace line' ahead of you. If a shout might get them to cop on then I am going to do it, especially when they blatanly jump on your wheel - this happens very often.

sconhome · 26-08-2013 9:13pm

jamescantwell wrote: »

doin fermoy tri last wk, i was about 8 or 9 metres from the guy in front of me and he had literally just overtaken me and was pulling away..

The overtake is deemed to have been completed once your front wheel gets ahead of the other cyclist who is now obliged to drop back out of the draft zone within 5 seconds.

If you didn't make a move to drop back rather than waiting for the overtaker to pull away, technically you are drafting.

jamescantwell wrote: »

2) its up to T.I. officials to warn of the rules, not some arrogant fool, who's streets ahead of most of the competitors in terms of talent.

It is up to TI officials to enforce the rules, it is incumbent on all participants in tri to practise the rules. From ITU rules:

I
nternational Triathlon Union
ITU Competition Rules
22-02-2011
19
b.)
Draft-Illegal Races:
(i)
Drafting from another athlete or motor vehicle is forbidden. Athletes must
reject attempts by others to draft;

I don't see anything wrong with what this guy did or said.

I also reject the comparisons between triathlon and filed ot team sports. Tri is all about challenging yourself. If you can't challenge yourself without breaking rules you are cheating yourself.

jamescantwell · 26-08-2013 9:39pm

fair enough!

Bambaata · 26-08-2013 10:49pm

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Strangely enough, I always regret shouting out on the course. But it is so easy to lose the cool when you are bursting a gut to catch people in a 'pace line' ahead of you. If a shout might get them to cop on then I am going to do it, especially when they blatanly jump on your wheel - this happens very often.

I shout out people too and i think its only gonna get solved if the athletes ard those shouting about it on course.

Mr Tango · 27-08-2013 8:40am

Bambaata wrote: »

I shout out people too and i think its only gonna get solved if the athletes ard those shouting about it on course.

Me too and if it is that blatant it wont be as polite as shouting 'drafting' either.

bryangiggsy · 27-08-2013 9:15am

Left pondering the question after Dublin this weekend and other races this year....

The real problem and were i see the biggest advantages being gained in both kilkee and dublin ..is the 4 or 5 guys working together..the small packs that blow by you riding not in a draft..but spread accross the road....moving up and down in and out...Coming out in the top 8% of the swim and being a weaker 21% rider..i see this a lot

Also another thing annoys the fook out of me..is when i guy busts a guy to get up past you then pulls directly in front of you and slows down as hes fooked.....

sconhome · 27-08-2013 9:28am

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Also another thing annoys the fook out of me..is when i guy busts a guy to get up past you then pulls directly in front of you and slows down as hes fooked.....

Pet hate of mine too. You have to sit up and drop back before going past him again, meantime someone who's been sitting on his wheel drops in front of you too :mad: :mad:

tunney · 27-08-2013 9:47am

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Also another thing annoys the fook out of me..is when i guy busts a guy to get up past you then pulls directly in front of you and slows down as hes fooked.....

Its called blocking and there are rules for it, however they of course are not enforced either

BTH · 27-08-2013 9:50am

tunney wrote: »

Its called blocking and there are rules for it, however they of course are not enforced either

I know a guy who got a penalty in DCT for blocking.

tunney · 27-08-2013 9:52am

BTH wrote: »

I know a guy who got a penalty in DCT for blocking.

Impressive, surprised.

speedyj · 27-08-2013 10:16am

BTH wrote: »

I know a guy who got a penalty in DCT for blocking.

Naughty

pgibbo · 27-08-2013 11:52am

I saw some at DCT at the weekend. In the past I used to shout or give out but I found it had a negative effect on me so I've stopped and just say fcuk them if they want to cheat.

One guy was stuck to someones wheel for 2 laps and wasn't pinged at all. I checked the results and no penalty. I overtook him and the person he was drafting off only for him to jump on my wheel. He had some cheek. He even commented on how touchy the other person was about him being so close to them. :eek: This happened a couple of times until he latched on to someone else that was moving faster for the last lap.

The second one showed me how effective drafting can be. On my last time going up the Kyber there was no-one around me when 5 lads came by like a train and left me for dead. Even going uphill there was a benefit.

I did notice groups gathering on the Kyber at times but it's very hard to drop back the 10m on an uphill section if someone overtakes you and isn't strong enough to keep going. They tended to disperse at the top though as most people were making an effort not to draft.

SlowMe · 27-08-2013 1:07pm

pgibbo wrote: »

I found it had a negative effect on me so I've stopped and just say fcuk them if they want to cheat

same as that for me but I'm not a "contender" - I'm not sure I'd take it as passively if I was challenging for a place

pgibbo · 27-08-2013 1:59pm

SlowMe wrote: »

same as that for me but I'm not a "contender" - I'm not sure I'd take it as passively if I was challenging for a place

I think the reality is that there are only about 20 or 30 athletes that are contenders at these races - if even that many. The rest of us are there for our own personal reasons

SlowMe · 27-08-2013 2:06pm

pgibbo wrote: »

I think the reality is that there are only about 20 or 30 athletes that are contenders at these races - if even that many. The rest of us are there for our own personal reasons

agreed. makes drafting all the more ridiculous...

fluboy · 31-08-2013 5:45pm

Not sure on the ruling on this one myself, but today in Hook or by Crook two lads sped past me, drafting, not off each other but drafting off the back of a tractor and trailer.

Is this a breach of the drafting rule?

sconhome · 31-08-2013 5:46pm

Yes it is!

From ITU Rule Book
•• • Vehicle draft zone will be a rectangle thirty-five (35) metres long by five (5) metres wide, which surrounds every vehicle on the bike segment. The front edge of the vehicle will define the center of the leading 5 metre edge of the rectangle.

fluboy · 31-08-2013 5:57pm

Taught as much. Dangerous as well.

Kurt Godel · 31-08-2013 6:06pm

amphkingwest wrote: »

Yes it is!

From ITU Rule Book
•• • Vehicle draft zone will be a rectangle thirty-five (35) metres long by five (5) metres wide, which surrounds every vehicle on the bike segment. The front edge of the vehicle will define the center of the leading 5 metre edge of the rectangle.

Good luck dropping back 35 meters from an overtaking vehicle today!:D
If there was any gap between groups of bikers, a car would invariably overtake to fill it. I was passed by a group of four bikes (looked to be drafting to me), and so dropped back the required number of meters. Straight away a car overtook (blind corner, solid line) to fill the space, and I could feel an instant benefit from riding behind it. I dropped back to get out of this, but that just meant another car tried its best to overtake me to fill the gap:rolleyes: In the end I undertook the first car and hammered it to get past the group of four.

I'm starting to see why some are calling for either draft-legal, or TT races.

sconhome · 31-08-2013 6:15pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I'm starting to see why some are calling for either draft-legal, or TT races.

Just closed roads would be ideal!

That and considerate drivers who realise they are going to be stopped ahead anyway and just leave you room on the inside, though technically you should be hammering down the outside (without crossing the white line

)

Jupiter36 · 31-08-2013 6:24pm

Lots of DQ's for failure to use the drafting penalty box at Mourne today.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 01-09-2013 4:54pm

I dont know what was worse, Banbridge CC not sitting out until the race past or the 4 "in the race" sitting in the group of said riders getting a nice draft into a solid headwind. Even passing those drafting and shouting "cheating fcker" done nothing to split the wheel suckers up.
Have the race numbers, half tempted to name & shame but should not be up to competitors!! Even cheating on the swim, just don't understand people that do that.

RacoonQueen · 01-09-2013 5:33pm

Would love to know how many regular drafters are reading this thread...

jamescantwell · 01-09-2013 6:40pm

saw zero drafting in brian boru yesterday....has to be the toughest tri in ireland??

Jupiter36 · 01-09-2013 8:22pm

Maximo Bald Bee wrote: »

I dont know what was worse, Banbridge CC not sitting out until the race past or the 4 "in the race" sitting in the group of said riders getting a nice draft into a solid headwind. Even passing those drafting and shouting "cheating fcker" done nothing to split the wheel suckers up.
Have the race numbers, half tempted to name & shame but should not be up to competitors!! Even cheating on the swim, just don't understand people that do that.

How did they cheat in the swim?

mossym · 01-09-2013 8:36pm

Jupiter36 wrote: »

How did they cheat in the swim?

zico10 · 01-09-2013 9:44pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Would love to know how many regular drafters are reading this thread...

0....Did you not know that anybody who uses boards is whiter than white and would never, ever draft?

sconhome · 02-09-2013 9:52am

zico10 wrote: »

0....Did you not know that anybody who uses boards is whiter than white and would never, ever draft?

^^

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 02-09-2013 10:18am

Jupiter36 wrote: »

How did they cheat in the swim?

Straight swim up to a buoy in the middle of the canal, turn that keeping it on your left and head to the steps. A good few just swam straight to the steps and saved themselves about a minute or so. Screw them, all you can do is control your own race.

Green&Red · 05-04-2014 7:21pm

So in the first triathlon of the year today there's a long straight stretch on the cycle, over a km, I see two lads doing up and overs, blatantly, tucked right in behind each other. I catch them and pass them, ask them if they are enjoying drafting. Pass a Marshall later, shout at him about drafters coming.
One of the drafters passes me on the run, I'm not happy.
Meet the Marshall later, ask him did he bust anyone, he says he gave a warning to a group of four and then busted one of them later.
Not the guy who passed me.
<snip>
No effect on me but it's cheating

Why bother!

rodneyr1981 · 05-04-2014 9:11pm

Green&Red wrote: »

So in the first triathlon of the year today there's a long straight stretch on the cycle, over a km, I see two lads doing up and overs, blatantly, tucked right in behind each other. I catch them and pass them, ask them if they are enjoying drafting. Pass a Marshall later, shout at him about drafters coming.
One of the drafters passes me on the run, I'm not happy.
Meet the Marshall later, ask him did he bust anyone, he says he gave a warning to a group of four and then busted one of them later.
Not the guy who passed me.
<snip>
No effect on me but it's cheating

Why bother!

Drafting very annoying. We're u satisfied with your performance? Any improvements on last year?

Mr Tango · 05-04-2014 10:38pm

I remember Athy a good few years ago. I was out the front after the swim and was getting passed by loads of drafters. At the turn I seen a group of at least 15-20 coming the other way.

I was extremely annoyed by this stage. Marshalls ignoring me etc.

So in my rage (and it was rage) I sat up as I seen them approaching and proceeded to weave back and forward. I got such abuse for dangerous riding. When I accused them all of being cheating xxxxxxxxxxx they told me they couldn't help it.

Held them up for probably about a minute. They weren't happy - I wasn't happy. Not a great race at all. At the end of day only one person wins. Normally the drafters wont get on the podium and the rest of us just compete against ourselves.

I have resigned myself to just doing what I want to do and get the satisfaction from my own performance. You are wasting your energy thinking about changing it - it wont happen.

I accepted after that day there was no point in getting worked up about it - unless of course they beat you to a prize and then it warrants a good rant.

tunney · 06-04-2014 8:14pm

Mr Tango wrote: »

I remember Athy a good few years ago. I was out the front after the swim and was getting passed by loads of drafters. At the turn I seen a group of at least 15-20 coming the other way.

I was extremely annoyed by this stage. Marshalls ignoring me etc.

So in my rage (and it was rage) I sat up as I seen them approaching and proceeded to weave back and forward. I got such abuse for dangerous riding. When I accused them all of being cheating xxxxxxxxxxx they told me they couldn't help it.

Held them up for probably about a minute. They weren't happy - I wasn't happy. Not a great race at all. At the end of day only one person wins. Normally the drafters wont get on the podium and the rest of us just compete against ourselves.

I have resigned myself to just doing what I want to do and get the satisfaction from my own performance. You are wasting your energy thinking about changing it - it wont happen.

I accepted after that day there was no point in getting worked up about it - unless of course they beat you to a prize and then it warrants a good rant.

Ride hard, get to the front in a head wind. Have a slash. Petty but satisfying.

sconhome · 07-04-2014 9:49am

Green&Red wrote: »

So in the first triathlon of the year today there's a long straight stretch on the cycle, over a km, I see two lads doing up and overs, blatantly, tucked right in behind each other. I catch them and pass them, ask them if they are enjoying drafting. Pass a Marshall later, shout at him about drafters coming.
One of the drafters passes me on the run, I'm not happy.
Meet the Marshall later, ask him did he bust anyone, he says he gave a warning to a group of four and then busted one of them later.
Not the guy who passed me.
<snip>
No effect on me but it's cheating

Why bother!

Did you report his number to the referee when you finished? I would have. Unless we all speak up and out nothing is going to be done about it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again TI need to invest in 4 or 5 helmet mounted cams and circulate them around the races. Bike marshals shoot the video and a retrospective review of any incident will be evidence enough.

tunney · 07-04-2014 9:53am

AKW wrote: »

Did you report his number to the referee when you finished? I would have. Unless we all speak up and out nothing is going to be done about it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again TI need to invest in 4 or 5 helmet mounted cams and circulate them around the races. Bike marshals shoot the video and a retrospective review of any incident will be evidence enough.

All this assumes that TI actually *want* to do the extra work to catch drafters or are they happy that given the short retention rate of triathletes that in the end it doesn't really matter? That by the time someone figures out the problem they are on the way out anyways?

mirrormatrix · 07-04-2014 10:22am

Equip the bike marshalls with some low voltage tasers. Problem solved.

Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

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