Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

Nwm2 · 30-06-2013 11:33am #1

Based on what I saw yesterday, a sizeable portion of Irish triathletes are cheating bastards.

This wasn't pushing the limit of the draft zone, or barely legal, or straying into the zone, or bunching going up the hill.

This was all out wheel sucking peletons.

Cheating from the very top (podium guys got busted), right back to the back of the field based on conversations I had.

I was in around the top 10%, and the cheaters I saw had TT bikes and aero helmets and are genuine triathletes. I caught up to one group of about 8 and couldn't believe what they were doing - basically rolling through, up and overs, <1m between wheels. I passed and put in an effort to distance myself. Next thing I know a minute later, they all pass me one after another in a line - they thought I was now part of their peleton.

They were passed at least once by a motorbike marshall - who took no action.

How can we solve this? Or are the cheaters outnumbering the honest?

Two things I would like to see:

(1) Far harsher penalties. It looks like, even for the faster guys, a draft penalty is just the price of doing business. A probable gain of 2 min yesterday (or much less effort) versus the small chance of a 2 min penalty. Yeah, let's take that bet.

For blatant drafting, ie peletons/wheel sucking - it should be 10 mins or more. Can RDs implement this? Or are they restricted by TI rules?

For something like an inadvertent 9m instead of 10m - 2 min is fine.

(2) Far stricter motorbike marshalls, and more of them. If you rarely see them, and if they don't take action anyway, they are no deterrent.

Is there any additional way of enforcing the rules? Are stationary checkpoints workable in any way?

I've given up on the notion of the honour system, this is about how to enforce the rules. Some credit at least to some of the officials yesterday giving the penalties to the top guys. Better than the ludicrous 'half-penalty' given to Bryan Keane last year.

smcgiff · 30-06-2013 11:38am

The marshall didn't fail to see the towel fall off that lady's top exposing her breasts.

Unregistered. · 30-06-2013 11:52am

I was caught by them too. Impossible to get out when they box you in. And very dangerous, lots of weaving as the idiots were all on their TT bars.

elvis jones · 30-06-2013 12:07pm

smcgiff wrote: »

The marshall didn't fail to see the towel fall off that lady's top exposing her breasts.

If you are talking about Wesport it wasn't a marshall, it a the race ref from TI. If you're going to side swipe at least have your facts right.

On the drafting, its the TI guys on the motorbikes who really need to clamp down and report more athletes and harsher penalties. The OP was spot on with their post on it.

captainkeg · 30-06-2013 12:11pm

can I ask a stupid question?
why is drafting illegal in the cycle?safety reasons? It's allowed in the Olympics if I'm not mistaken. It's also allowed in the swim,why ban something that's impossible to police properly?

elvis jones · 30-06-2013 12:14pm

captainkeg wrote: »

can I ask a stupid question?
why is drafting illegal in the cycle?safety reasons? It's allowed in the Olympics if I'm not mistaken. It's also allowed in the swim,why ban something that's impossible to police properly?

In the Olympics you have very experienced riders, at an average race............no. Safety and guys on full TT bars that have their heads down.

Nwm2 · 30-06-2013 12:52pm

elvis jones wrote: »

In the Olympics you have very experienced riders, at an average race............no. Safety and guys on full TT bars that have their heads down.

Drop the TT bars and it would be fine. I have done 3 draft legal duathlons in the last year, with lots of inexperienced riders, with no issues that I heard of.

Draft legal races are enjoyable, have their place, and I wish there was more of them, but I, and I'm sure others, have invested too much $$ in TT bikes to have them relegated to TTs only!

Still, going draft-legal is certainly the nuclear option here.

catweazle · 30-06-2013 1:55pm

TI Officials don't want the hassle if you ask me - every race I am at there has been drafting and I see very little correlation with the penalties board.

From my three races this year

Trisport Duathlon - A team of three went around the whole course working together. Laughed at me when I called them cheats as they went by me, I mentioned iot to marshals going by but what else can i do

Triburgh this a year a group of 4 riders all go by me, not working together sharing the front but they were clearly sucking the life of the first wheel. They were seen on a few occasions by the TI official as I was about 50ms back but nothing done about it, 3 of them finish ahead of me at the end of the race. I could give their names but what is that going to do besides me getting slapped with a libel suit

Kilkee - While 2012 was an improvement, 2011 and this year were draft fests again, not so much on the outward section but coming back in against the headwind is when it starts. 3-4 large packs came by me and I am talking 15+. I haven't come across it this blatant in any other race except for Athy a few years ago so you have to think it is a crowded course as well which makes it more tempting

Its little things that could be improved

I know there is a penalty board at the race itself which is something I never bother looking at or even think about due to my low position but maybe in the online results section to make fellow competitors see who got penalties straight away.

I had to go shifting through results to find them -

Bjorn and Dave had bike penalties from the top ten - I know they are 2 minute penalties given to them on the bike but I don't know what they are for - were they caught drafting - make it more clear!

How many more were caught - the penalty list should be posted as a link on the results as well!

Bambaata · 30-06-2013 4:05pm

It really gets me too. I had a bunch of 3 go past me at Roses Point, 1 of which podiumed. I'm told he got a penalty but it doesn't reflect i the results. I know there was a penalty pen so he could have served it there and went on but to me it should be highlighted on the results so that there is some shame brought to the individual. Maybe a weekly posting from TI of who was caught cheating at races each week might get them, to cop on by publicly naming and shaming? Its very sad seeing the guys at the top at this considering they should be leading by example.

Fazz · 30-06-2013 4:18pm

I'm hoping it will now be clamped down much more - especially for the top 10-20 where podiums and prize money is affected.

It's easily fixed imo, simply assign 1-2 moto's to manage the top 10-20 of every race.
You'll soon see who is drafting and regularly and apply fair penalties.

Penalties, to my knowledge are not being applied correctly either.

I had the perfect view point many times yesterday having a good bike recovering through lots of competitors from a poor swim.
Saw groups of 3-4, saw some just sitting on wheels or 1-2 bike's back taking massive drafts.

Also got passed a couple times and watched the power drop 50 watts.
50 Watts as I dropped back the legal gap and stayed behind.
Still down 50 watts thinking I'm losing time here, back on the power and re-pass only to get passed a few seconds later as my wheel gets sucked and the offender doesn't move back the 10 metres required clearly.

2 minutes is not a sufficient penalty.
It is for one offence, but not for repeated drafting.

I saw a moto come up behind a group of 4 in top 15 who were all at most 2-3 bike lengths back. He didn't show any yellow cards, didn't have words or get close to any of the bikes then pulled in at next turn.

I understand no warning is required by Moto Officials. but it's also not fair to apply 1 penalty to a racer seen drafting and leave it at that as he continues to draft up the road!

To my knowledge, the rule is first drafting penalty - 2 minutes. Repeated offence = DQ.
It is not sufficient to simply write down a number and give a 2 minute penalty at the end. They've received a massive benefit worth more than 2 minutes if they've drafted a good bit of bike.
Not to mention legs fresher for the run having been 50 watts easier for a portion of the bike!

Please TI and Race Directors, enforce 1-2 moto's to manage the top 10-15 at least throughout the whole race.
Apply penalties on the course not post race 1 single penalty.

It is a start at least in the right direction so that was good to see.

bryangiggsy · 30-06-2013 5:13pm

There were a no of motorbike marshalls however i only saw one with a pillion passenger who had a stick with a camera attached and pulled up alongside a group of four or five that passed me and she started snapping photos. I thought that was efficient.

elvis jones · 30-06-2013 6:26pm

Nuff said

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173232721/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173092013/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173088061/in/set-72157634404228921

woody1 · 30-06-2013 7:18pm

is it right though for someone to be able to be on a podium after what is effectively cheating.. to be honest with blatant drafting of the type being described here i think they should just be disqualified straight away.. its one thing to be marginally inside the draft zone a metre or 2 can happen very easily and accidentally.. but this is organised cheating to gain an advantage and should be cracked down very hard on.. if you want to cycle like that join a cycling team..

NorthernRaider · 30-06-2013 7:38pm

Good post, NWM, I'm glad you highlighted this. Not that it needs much confirmation, but I can certainly add my tuppence worth, essentially corroborating what has been said above.

I saw one of the aforesaid pelotons (with some very decent triathletes amongst them) cycling together for at least a good distance. Two motorcycle officials passed them and did nothing (I checked the penalties afterwards). When one of them subsequently passed me, I was actually sufficiently annoyed to point to the peloton and asked him what he was going to do! He then drove up and waved his arm as if to try and separate the offenders, who ignored him (and he did not give any penalty).

However, it did strike me that there are probably some innocent parties in those pelotons. If somebody catches, say a peloton of 15, they're unlikely to be able to pass (as Fazz has pointed out!), so what are they supposed to do? Otherwise, there are cases where you have two people who are of very similar ability and who are genuinely battling all the way. I think these cases are ambiguous as opposed to those who start the peloton and individual who 'wheel suck'.

For those, I'd echo some of the above:

1) Get the motorcycle officials to be meaner (while still fair) - I don't think the problem is the number of them, but how they act.

2) Publicise the offenders. As noted, it's not at all clear from the provisional or official results (e.g. Rosses Point). Why not add it to the weekly update!?

3) We should all contact TI and make our views known. Does a TI representative still keep an eye on this forum? The new CEO has expressedly talked of re-engaging with the non-elite triathlete, so TI should be open to this dialogue.

Otherwise, it's good to see that at least some penalties were levied and big boys were among the recipients! I'm pretty surprised and disappointed that very capable athletes are engaging in this behaviour. Where would those of us non-drafters have otherwise finished?

P.S. No to acquathons!!!:p A.K.A. Draft-legal tris!

Nwm2 · 30-06-2013 8:23pm

TI's attitude is obvious from their race report. Drafting is airbrushed from history:

"With a strong breeze not letting up, the bike would prove to be a serious test. In the men’s race Noble continued to push the pace and entered T2 with a sizable lead followed by Thornton. Nenagh TC’s Shane Scully put in an impressive bike split to move right up through the field and into 3rd.

....

In the men’s race there would be no stopping Gavin Noble as he smashed the old course record by 7min 54secs to set a new best of 1:59:46. European Age Group Champion, Kevin Thornton ran well to claim 2nd, also within the previous record some 5:19 down on Noble. 3rd place went to Mark Horan who had a great run to finish 10:10 down."

Yea, that's exactly what happened. Complete BS and chicken-sh*t reporting.

Unregistered. · 30-06-2013 11:06pm

elvis jones wrote: »

Nuff said

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173232721/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173092013/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173088061/in/set-72157634404228921

Impossible, and unfair, to judge from photographs.

El Director · 30-06-2013 11:35pm

Only spotted this thread now. I have already made my point on the HoTW thread and I ain't getting into it again. In short though I agree with most of what is being said above. I don't get how some of these guys can train so hard to become so good at what they do only to cheat on the day. It does not add up. To get as good as some of these guys you got to work so hard and you know one thing for sure - there are no short cuts. So why cheat then? Now let me just say I believe there are more good apples than bad but something needs to be done and it has to come from us. I for one will be much more proactive about this issue in the future. It needs to be stamped out.

BTW I agree about the photo's, taken out of context they are a little unfair. They are just a snap shot of a moment. Is the cyclist behind closing in and ready to pass? Has the rider in front just passed? Is there a bloody tractor or car just in front holding up the whole show? BEEP BEEP!

BTW was it just me o did anyway else see a moto with a person on the back with a GOPRO camera on a stick? I thought they might be gathering evidence of drafting or something. Perhaps they were just getting race footage.

couerdelion · 01-07-2013 9:39am

catweazle wrote: »

Bjorn and Dave had bike penalties from the top ten - I know they are 2 minute penalties given to them on the bike but I don't know what they are for - were they caught drafting - make it more clear!

Yes, Bjorn's was for drafting. He was adamant he hadn't been and whilst on the course didn't get any indication that he was going to be penalised (i.e. warning from motorcycle marshal or yellow card). He paid his money and appealed it and got told it would stand.

pgibbo · 01-07-2013 9:41am

I think the blatant drafting on Saturday was shocking. I found myself sitting up on numerous occasions when a group of 3 or 4 would pass me. I'd drop back and soon I was overtaking them all only for them to not drop back and just overtake me again. :mad:

I saw the guy with the GoPro on a stick alright but not sure if he was taking footage or catching drafters.

I agree that the photos can be very misleading. As pointed out by others, anything could have been happening when the pic was taken.

catweazle · 01-07-2013 9:52am

couerdelion wrote: »

Yes, Bjorn's was for drafting. He was adamant he hadn't been and whilst on the course didn't get any indication that he was going to be penalised (i.e. warning from motorcycle marshal or yellow card). He paid his money and appealed it and got told it would stand.

I doubt very much anyone would fess up and admit to it - perhaps Bjorn is an innocent party and was badly wronged but I doubt it - you can bet your ass that the TI official would be 100% certain that he was drafting before hitting someone that was probably knocking around in the top 5 at the time.

Solobally8 · 01-07-2013 9:58am

elvis jones wrote: »

Nuff said

I didnt quote your photos elvis because I really dont think you should have put them up in the first place. There is no context to them, how do you know exactly what was happening? It looks like its at the top of a hill. How do you know they didnt over take 2 seconds after the photo was taken. And if they were actually drafting it's not up to us to post photos of them here.

There was a photo taken of me in a triathlon last year that mortifies me. I am so close to the guy in front of me, it looks like I'm stuck to his back wheel. But the photo doesnt tell the story of what was happening (people walking on road so I had to duck back in behind him after trying to over take, guy in front crawling, people ahead of him on tandem crawling, just coming out of transition etc).

My point is that photos dont tell the whole story and its unfair that they are posted up on this thread.

By the way drafting drives me mental and as a back of the packer I see a lot of it. Cant understand why people would do all this training and then cheat on race day.

peter kern · 01-07-2013 11:15am

Ti is very good a controlling the transition aerea. Where they get people for technicalities like crossing a white line by 2 cm.
They have a proven record for officiating transitoons

by now we are that far that people are really worried not to cross that white line by 2cm but know nothing will happen if they draft.

Anyway I shut up as the only thing that will help is if all the people that complain become draft marshalls.

It's easy to complain about draft marshalls but they still give up their time and for what they get you can't expect them to be good.

elvis jones · 01-07-2013 11:27am

Unregistered. wrote: »

Impossible, and unfair, to judge from photographs.

Sorry i should have explained it better when i posted those pics.

Some of riders are so close you can just see a shoe or a helmet behind the 1st rider. There's no excuse for that.

trihead · 01-07-2013 11:54am

This comes up every year after Kilkee and a few other of the big races...its not a Kilkee problem as it is seen in a lot of races up and down the country to some degree.

My suggestions to try and improve this:

- Increase the penalties for this. Either much bigger time penalties or
if you are caught drafting you will not podium / pick up an AG price / points disallowed from this race for series.

- Name and shame athletes ( maybe the first offense would not be published).

- The bike riders / Draft marshalls should be paid from the race organisers fund. Why - Shortage of bike riders at most races / Need to separate bike riders or draft marshals from the ordinary volunteers... so they are there to do a job and not be 'afraid' to act on what they see. Training would be needed though aswell.

- More funding for technical equipment such as cameras from TI or sponsors. Maybe this could shared and used for the bigger races / national series between clubs.

- If the organisers have use of cameras maybe use them for drafting instead of shooting videos for promotion on fb etc.

- Increase the number of race refs that clubs have to have especially for the bigger races.

trihead:)

couerdelion · 01-07-2013 12:05pm

trihead wrote: »

- The bike riders / Draft marshalls should be paid from the race organisers fund. Why - Shortage of bike riders at most races / Need to separate bike riders or draft marshals from the ordinary volunteers... so they are there to do a job and not be 'afraid' to act on what they see. Training would be needed though aswell.

The motorbike marshalls are provided from a central pool from TI and each motorcycle marshall has to undergo training and recertify each year (this is to do with insurance I believe). The course is good and explains everything marshalls need to know. From what I recall you do get a stipend to marshall plus mileage to get there and for what is used whilst doing the race duties.

The presence of marshalls is usually enough to stop any drafting that is happening. If you hear a bike athletes make sure you have the correct gap and you have to make sure that the distance is too close for the required number of seconds too - this means in the majority of cases by the time the marshalls suspects drafting, moves up / turns round to monitor it then the drafting has ended. He then moves on and the drafting continues. It's a tough job to be seen to be doing well.

Green&Red · 01-07-2013 12:15pm

Some ridiculous examples on Saturday. I saw the marshall maybe 3-4 times on the way out, not at all on the way back.
I had a great battle with two lads, where they would overtake me on some of the flatter sections and I'd take them on the hills, all legal but then we were caught by a group of 4/5, clearly doing up and overs and working as a team, let them off and watched them, there was no sign of even making an attempt to hide it. Eventually when we came to those couple of big hills towards the end I passed them and didnt see them again until the run, when they all overtook me. So basically I had busted myself on the bike while they had conserved their energy and then they reaped the rewards.
Even if I am a middle of the packer its still annoying, the difference between 100th and 80th doesnt mean a lot to anyone other than me but for me busting my arse all year it makes all the difference

Nwm2 · 01-07-2013 12:55pm

couerdelion wrote: »

The presence of marshalls is usually enough to stop any drafting that is happening. If you hear a bike athletes make sure you have the correct gap and you have to make sure that the distance is too close for the required number of seconds too - this means in the majority of cases by the time the marshalls suspects drafting, moves up / turns round to monitor it then the drafting has ended. He then moves on and the drafting continues. It's a tough job to be seen to be doing well.

How does this explain the several people on here, including myself, who saw motorbike marshalls going past peletons of actively drafting folk, but taking no action?

couerdelion · 01-07-2013 1:33pm

Nwm2 wrote: »

How does this explain the several people on here, including myself, who saw motorbike marshalls going past peletons of actively drafting folk, but taking no action?

It doesn't. Maybe the marshall believed there to be 10m between front wheels when he was monitoring from the side. Something that might not be as obvious from behind.

I'm not being naïve enough to suggest that drafting wasn't happening. I just can't understand why a marshall would ride past and do nothing.

tunney · 01-07-2013 2:09pm

couerdelion wrote: »

I just can't understand why a marshall would ride past and do nothing.

Don't give a fvck. Boils down to that.

conradk · 01-07-2013 5:03pm

Really to sort this out, pressure needs to be brought to bear on TI to take drafting/cheating more seriously.
- Emails to administrator@triathlonireland.com might be a good place to start?
- A motion at the TI AGM to increase penalties for drafting and focus more resources towards draft marshals might also be a medium term initiative.

We all know who the drafters are as they appear to do it race after race. Good to see penalties handed out at Kilkee. We need more of this.

Drafting is infuriating to the majority of people (of all abilities) who train hard and honestly and play by the rules.

I couldn't count the number of times I've had people openly tell me that they got a good draft in a race, they don't seem too put off when I tell them baldly to their faces that drafting is cheating.

Triathlon Ireland · 01-07-2013 5:26pm

Hi All,

You may have spotted them already but we have a few videos from the Hell of the West race on our Youtube and vimeo sites.
Highlights - https://vimeo.com/69426668
Gavin - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTVSPxBmcLE
Anna - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D33yKMS50J4

With regard to drafting we have a short post on www.triathlonireland.com about this and will be asking MO's to be a little firmer in applying the drafting rules. http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1334

As always appreciate any feedback so grab us at a race, drop us an email or volunteer to be a technical official or motor bike marshal.

Thanks,
Triathlon Ireland

Nwm2 · 01-07-2013 5:39pm

Triathlon Ireland wrote: »

Hi All,

You may have spotted them already but we have a few videos from the Hell of the West race on our Youtube and vimeo sites.
Highlights - https://vimeo.com/69426668
Gavin - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTVSPxBmcLE
Anna - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D33yKMS50J4

With regard to drafting we have a short post on www.triathlonireland.com about this and will be asking MO's to be a little firmer in applying the drafting rules. http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1334

As always appreciate any feedback so grab us at a race, drop us an email or volunteer to be a technical official or motor bike marshal.

Thanks,
Triathlon Ireland

First off, thanks a lot for responding here, and for the post on the site.

You hint that at least some of the problem is awareness and part of the solution is more emphasis on this at race briefings etc. With respect, I think most of the people I saw cheating at Kilkee and Athy were pretty au fait with the rules and no amount of harping on about it would have made a difference.

I think MOs need to be a LOT firmer, not a little firmer.

I also think that if you are not out on the course competing you may not have any idea how bad it is out there.

One key question from me: can the default 2min time penalty be increased to a default 10min or something? Is it ITU rules or TI rules or RD rules that have jurisdiction?

At the bigger races (Athy and Kilkee for me this year) it is a huge problem. This is a far, far bigger issue in our sport than PEDs in my opinion.

A few races with lots of big penalties and DQs and this problem will go away quickly.

gilleek2 · 01-07-2013 5:47pm

conradk wrote: »

Really to sort this out, pressure needs to be brought to bear on TI to take drafting/cheating more seriously.
- Emails to administrator@triathlonireland.com might be a good place to start?
- A motion at the TI AGM to increase penalties for drafting and focus more resources towards draft marshals might also be a medium term initiative.

We all know who the drafters are as they appear to do it race after race. Good to see penalties handed out at Kilkee. We need more of this.

Drafting is infuriating to the majority of people (of all abilities) who train hard and honestly and play by the rules.

I couldn't count the number of times I've had people openly tell me that they got a good draft in a race, they don't seem too put off when I tell them baldly to their faces that drafting is cheating.

What would be wrong with pulling people in at the side of the road at the next safe place. That would be a pretty powerful visual deterrant to others while not going as far as openly calling someone a cheat on the ould interweb. It would also effectively be more than a 2 minute penalty as it would disrupt the offenders rhythm.

kal7 · 01-07-2013 6:06pm

+1 for gilleek2 last post

Stop the biggest peleton on the course and let them off one by one, as per the rules, would mean a huge penalty for being a the back of a group.

This would be a great visual.

I believe many of the groups formed because as you passed a group you hit the wind and dropped back to them again.

Therefore as athletes we need to make a bigger effort to stay separated properly.

Great race overall. Many trying to be good on busy course.

It is those plainly going, up and over, that annoy me most.

topper75 · 01-07-2013 6:32pm

kal7 wrote: »

Stop the biggest peleton on the course and let them off one by one

Aye, but let them off in what order? Everyone will tell you they were at the front when it formed.

bryangiggsy · 01-07-2013 7:43pm

Blatant drafting is obvious ... Motorbikes can sit right back and see it a few hundred metres away ... No warnings ... No and penalty. Was disappointing to only see 6 penalties on the penalty board. It wud be a diff story if there was 30 no's on the penalty board. Have been thinking about it and narrow roads tough bike course with wind and hills with 350 people in each wave there is going to be issues with drafting and peletons ... Only solution in my opinion is more waves.

longshank · 01-07-2013 8:05pm

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Blatant drafting is obvious ... Motorbikes can sit right back and see it a few hundred metres away ... No warnings ... No and penalty. Was disappointing to only see 6 penalties on the penalty board. It wud be a diff story if there was 30 no's on the penalty board. Have been thinking about it and narrow roads tough bike course with wind and hills with 350 people in each wave there is going to be issues with drafting and peletons ... Only solution in my opinion is more waves.

The two races being mentioned are HOW and Athy and what they have in common is too many competitors on the bike course. 700 competitors x10m = 7km.
There should be a limit on numbers in a wave and a minimum time gap between waves. Organisers crowding people on the bike course is contributing to the problem.

gilleek2 · 01-07-2013 9:50pm

longshank wrote: »

The two races being mentioned are HOW and Athy and what they have in common is too many competitors on the bike course. 700 competitors x10m = 7km.
There should be a limit on numbers in a wave and a minimum time gap between waves. Organisers crowding people on the bike course is contributing to the problem.

Defo should be smaller waves. 740 starting in 2 waves is crazy knowing that it was a draftfest last year. Motorbike officials could easily see if anyone was trying not to draft if they hung back before swooping for the kill. People seen sharing the work should be DQ'd immediately.

Nwm2 · 01-07-2013 10:12pm

gilleek2 wrote: »

Defo should be smaller waves. 740 starting in 2 waves is crazy knowing that it was a draftfest last year. Motorbike officials could easily see if anyone was trying not to draft if they hung back before swooping for the kill. People seen sharing the work should be DQ'd immediately.

There is loads of waves in Athy, but it's still a problem. But less than Kilkee on Saturday sure.

One thing specific to Kilkee is that I believe the RDs are trying to prevent cyclists going both ways through the tight bridge in Doonbeg - risk of head on collision. This limits the amount of waves I believe.

ShineyShiney · 01-07-2013 10:48pm

Couldnt the race chip be used with gps to identify drafting

longshank · 02-07-2013 7:38am

Nwm2 wrote: »

There is loads of waves in Athy, but it's still a problem. But less than Kilkee on Saturday sure.

One thing specific to Kilkee is that I believe the RDs are trying to prevent cyclists going both ways through the tight bridge in Doonbeg - risk of head on collision. This limits the amount of waves I believe.

Loads of waves is one thing but the time gap between also has to be considered.
Some mathematician could surely come up with a formula for size of a wave x no. of waves + time gap to give enough space on bike course to prevent overcrowding?

mossym · 02-07-2013 9:24am

longshank wrote: »

Loads of waves is one thing but the time gap between also has to be considered.
Some mathematician could surely come up with a formula for size of a wave x no. of waves + time gap to give enough space on bike course to prevent overcrowding?

twas bad enough going off at 6pm at athy this year. any bigger gap between waves and people would have to remove tri bars to fit lights for the bike legs.

it's fine saying bigger gaps, but the longer race then has to be considered, longer road distruptions, marshalls having to stay on course for hours more.

tougher policing seems a better option. in athy, i went through lots of the ride without seeing anyone, then passed groups. there was lots of room for them to avoid drafting if they wanted

hardCopy · 02-07-2013 9:39am

Nwm2 wrote: »

There is loads of waves in Athy, but it's still a problem. But less than Kilkee on Saturday sure.

One thing specific to Kilkee is that I believe the RDs are trying to prevent cyclists going both ways through the tight bridge in Doonbeg - risk of head on collision. This limits the amount of waves I believe.

I think part of the problem in Athy is down to the way the waves are broken up. Dividing waves by age group means you have some very fast cyclists working their way through the weaker members of the earlier wave. This surely contributes to the bunching.

tunney · 02-07-2013 9:50am

longshank wrote: »

Loads of waves is one thing but the time gap between also has to be considered.
Some mathematician could surely come up with a formula for size of a wave x no. of waves + time gap to give enough space on bike course to prevent overcrowding?

John Cunniffe did it a few years ago for TI.

Wackoy2k · 02-07-2013 10:44am

elvis jones wrote: »

Nuff said

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173232721/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173092013/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173088061/in/set-72157634404228921

I wasn't aware there was anyone drafting behind me and I sure as hell wasn't drafting at any point and I am in one of those pics.

But I did see a lot of it going on. Was passed by a number of TT Bikes at one stage and they were rolling.

Mr.Fred · 02-07-2013 11:24am

Nwm2 wrote: »

There is loads of waves in Athy, but it's still a problem. But less than Kilkee on Saturday sure.

One thing specific to Kilkee is that I believe the RDs are trying to prevent cyclists going both ways through the tight bridge in Doonbeg - risk of head on collision. This limits the amount of waves I believe.

There were far to many entrants in Athy for a 1 day event. I think the $$$ skewed their perspective to be honest and they crammed in as many as they thought possible.

Hopefully it'll return to a 2 day event if the up take is similar next year.

Also as previously stated drafting was rampant but there was a continuous line with the number of competitors, some however used this to their advantage.

Nwm2 · 02-07-2013 11:26am

Wackoy2k wrote: »

I wasn't aware there was anyone drafting behind me and I sure as hell wasn't drafting at any point and I am in one of those pics.

But I did see a lot of it going on. Was passed by a number of TT Bikes at one stage and they were rolling.

I think those pics are at the top of the hill. Personally, I didn't have any problem with some bunching going up the hill. It was inevitable, and no benefit to be gained really.

I agree with pics don't give the context of what is going on in most cases, and particularly those pics don't prove anything (you have 15 secs to get out of a draft zone). Although a picture of a peleton on the flat would be clear cut.

Mr.Fred · 02-07-2013 11:27am

Wackoy2k wrote: »

I wasn't aware there was anyone drafting behind me and I sure as hell wasn't drafting at any point and I am in one of those pics.

But I did see a lot of it going on. Was passed by a number of TT Bikes at one stage and they were rolling.

I think pictures like the ones posted don't really tell a true tale. The tail rider may well be dropping back it certainly looks like it in one pic with one guy looking to his left.

peter kern · 02-07-2013 11:56am

My solution for drafting ;-)

https://www.extrawheelshop.com/en/bicycle-trailer-solo.html

All we have to do extend the distance of the wheel from the frame ;-)

its also a great solution for those that like bigger bento boxes when doing Ironman....

Ps i realise we might have to reorganice transition aereas a bit

rowr · 02-07-2013 1:51pm

Carry a small bottle of piss and squirt it at anyone that hugs your wheel. Problem solved. Culprits can then be identified at finish line .

No need to get high tec about things

longshank · 02-07-2013 8:11pm

mossym wrote: »

twas bad enough going off at 6pm at athy this year. any bigger gap between waves and people would have to remove tri bars to fit lights for the bike legs.

it's fine saying bigger gaps, but the longer race then has to be considered, longer road distruptions, marshalls having to stay on course for hours more.

tougher policing seems a better option. in athy, i went through lots of the ride without seeing anyone, then passed groups. there was lots of room for them to avoid drafting if they wanted

maybe the numbers in the race should be limited if that's the case.
prevention is always better than cure. don't give cheats the opportunity to draft and if they do it's obvious and the officials can pick it up as they have less cyclists to watch.
Actually it probably requires all of the measures mentioned -more space on course/ harsher punishment/ name and shame/ clear anti-drafting campaign/ more marshals etc etc.

Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

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