Polish Presidential election

Annasopra · 13-07-2020 12:19pm

excludedbin wrote: »

Weird how the same people who scream and shout about predominantly Muslim countries' treatment of LGBT people are all too happy to defend the same when it's Europeans doing it.

I know right

suicide_circus · 13-07-2020 12:19pm

do politicians often bring in laws which the people who voted them in find distasteful?

Eric Cartman · 13-07-2020 12:20pm

excludedbin wrote: »

Hitler also took Germany from being an economic basket case to a powerhouse. Doesn't mean he was laudable or should be defended. Brutalising minority groups simply because they're different and are hated shouldn't be something any reasonable person excuses or defends.

Weird how the same people who scream and shout about predominantly Muslim countries' treatment of LGBT people are all too happy to defend the same when it's Europeans doing it.

not being able to adopt a kid or marry is nowhere near being brutally beaten or thrown off buildings, but yes it would be better if the polish people were more inclusive of GLB people.

Cordell · 13-07-2020 12:23pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

do politicians often bring in laws which the people who voted them in find distasteful?

In principle, it doesn't matter what you think about the laws, or it only matters when it's time to vote again. This is how representative democracy works, you delegate the law making (among other things) to your elected representative and trust them to act in your best interest, even if it's not immediately apparent that they do so.
Again, that's in principle

Annasopra · 13-07-2020 12:24pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

not being able to adopt a kid or marry is nowhere near being brutally beaten or thrown off buildings, but yes it would be better if the polish people were more inclusive of GLB people.

Ah good man.... trying to backtrack when others celebrate the persecution

AndyTheDude · 13-07-2020 12:24pm

excludedbin wrote: »

Weird how the same people who scream and shout about predominantly Muslim countries' treatment of LGBT people are all too happy to defend the same when it's Europeans doing it.

So you're saying that treatment of homosexual people is the same in Poland as in Muslim countries? You may want to post a few links with homosexuals being beheaded or pushed from rooftops in Poland then. Talk about hysteria... :rolleyes:

gmisk · 13-07-2020 12:25pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

not being able to adopt a kid or marry is nowhere near being brutally beaten or thrown off buildings, but yes it would be better if the polish people were more inclusive of GLB people.

But not the T right? Feck them...do what you like to them.

Be happy your not being fecked off buildings LGBT people....there are plenty of recent examples of polish people being badly beaten for being LGBT.

13-07-2020 12:25pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

not being able to adopt a kid or marry is nowhere near being brutally beaten or thrown off buildings, but yes it would be better if the polish people were more inclusive of GLB people.

Labelling sex educators as paedophiles and making sure that students don't have a sex education that includes orientation for fear of it making children gay. Increased attacks on gay people, lgbt free zones... Christ, you'll label so much as no biggy... You do realise the Nazis in their early days had very small changes in relation to the rights of Jewish people? Then as time went on, they started to lose their jobs. Had their businesses attacked etc.

Annasopra · 13-07-2020 12:25pm

AndyTheDude wrote: »

So you're saying that treatment of homosexual people is the same in Poland as in Muslim countries? You may want to post a few links with homosexuals being beheaded or pushed from rooftops in Poland then. Talk about hysteria... :rolleyes:

Thats not what was said at all.

Brian? · 13-07-2020 12:27pm

spurious wrote: »

A Polish friend tonight described it as putting Poland back 40 years.

Yep. My Polish friends are equally devastated.

excludedbin · 13-07-2020 12:27pm

AndyTheDude wrote: »

So you're saying that treatment of homosexual people is the same in Poland as in Muslim countries? You may want to post a few links with homosexuals being beheaded or pushed from rooftops in Poland then. Talk about hysteria... :rolleyes:

My point is simply that the same people get very angry about those countries when the subject of LGBT people comes up but when it's European countries, they're falling over themselves to defend it. The only hysteria is against minority groups, which some here are very quick to defend only in certain instances.

AndyTheDude · 13-07-2020 12:31pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Thats not what was said at all.

Actually it was.

biko · 13-07-2020 12:32pm

excludedbin wrote: »

My point is simply that the same people get very angry about those countries when the subject of LGBT people comes up but when it's European countries, they're falling over themselves to defend it. The only hysteria is against minority groups, which some here are very quick to defend only in certain instances.

Tbh, I don't recall any of the LGBT defenders here have even objected to the policies of Iran or Saudi Arabia.
It has been brought up many times by conservatives though, you're right., which may seem strange but isn't at all.

Seamai · 13-07-2020 12:33pm

I visited Auschwitz a few years ago and on the way back to the train station spotted small notices on most of the lamp posts with a pictogram of two men having sex and a red X through it posted by some right wing catholic family group, I found this sickening on it's own but that this was tolerated in Auschwitz of all places made it even worse.

Bonniedog · 13-07-2020 12:33pm

AndyTheDude wrote: »

So you're saying that treatment of homosexual people is the same in Poland as in Muslim countries? You may want to post a few links with homosexuals being beheaded or pushed from rooftops in Poland then. Talk about hysteria... :rolleyes:

Shinners sent a gay mayor to Gaza on a Hamas junket ffs!

And lefties who support "rights" like gay adoption have been noticeably silent about Cuba which had thousands of gay people in prison camps.

There is no societal benefit to two men adopting a child without any consideration given to the impact on the child.

Typical of the selfish subjectivity that has generated all of this.

AndyTheDude · 13-07-2020 12:35pm

Brian? wrote: »

Yep. My Polish friends are equally devastated.

Well, I am Polish and I'm not devastated at all, so go figure...

gmisk · 13-07-2020 12:36pm

AndyTheDude wrote: »

Well, I am Polish and I'm not devastated at all, so go figure...

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you are not an LGBT person? And living in Poland?
I don't think that person said everyone was devastated....just their friends...are you and "Brian?" friends?

biko · 13-07-2020 12:37pm

Does anyone have an opinion on Duda's EU policies?

Seamai · 13-07-2020 12:39pm

biko wrote: »

Tbh, no-one of the LGBT defenders here have even objected to the policies of Iran or Saudi Arabia.
It has been brought up many times by conservatives though, you're right., which may seem strange to you but isn't at all.

I have plenty of opinions on the treatment of members of of the LGBT community in both of those countries and dozens more across the globe including many in Africa but we happen to be discussing Poland here, a country who like us is also a member of the EU and a country with whom we have developed a lot of close ties with over the last 20 years.

AndyTheDude · 13-07-2020 12:41pm

gmisk wrote: »

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you are not an LGBT person? And living in Poland?
I don't think that person said everyone was devastated....just their friends

I am straight, yes. You may be surprised but I don't go around looking for a LGBT person to punch them in the face.

AndyTheDude · 13-07-2020 12:43pm

gmisk wrote: »

I don't think that person said everyone was devastated....just their friends...are you and "Brian?" friends?

No, I am just showing that not everybody was devastated as some on here are trying to present.

Seamai · 13-07-2020 12:44pm

AndyTheDude wrote: »

I am straight, yes. You may be surprised but I do go around looking for a LGBT person to punch them in the face.

Not sure whether you're being serious or that's a typo.

13-07-2020 12:45pm

AndyTheDude wrote: »

No, I am just showing that not everybody was devastated as some on here are trying to present.

I think people are aware that not every polish person is upset. There are also many Polish people who will never feel at home again in Poland because of some pretty awful policies.

AndyTheDude · 13-07-2020 12:46pm

Seamai wrote: »

Not sure whether you're being serious or that's a typo.

typo of course. corrected, thanks

Eric Cartman · 13-07-2020 12:52pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah good man.... trying to backtrack when others celebrate the persecution

Im not backtracking on anything. Nobody in this thread has celebrated the persecution of anybody.

gmisk wrote: »

But not the T right? Feck them...do what you like to them.

Be happy your not being fecked off buildings LGBT people....there are plenty of recent examples of polish people being badly beaten for being LGBT.

Ireland is a long way from tolerance of trans people, Poland is even further away, but Ill admit I would not want them following our corrupt path to 'tolerance'

Deleted User wrote: »

Labelling sex educators as paedophiles and making sure that students don't have a sex education that includes orientation for fear of it making children gay. Increased attacks on gay people, lgbt free zones...

I haven't seen any evidence or anything about this , do you have anything (preferably in English) to back this up ? would have thought we'd have heard if there was something as extreme as 'lgbt free zones' in the EU.

Sex education and what should be / shouldn't be taught and at what age is a divisive topic so we'll leave that one out for now.

biko · 13-07-2020 12:54pm

Possibly it didn't help when social activist Janina Ochojska pointed out that Trzaskowski would introduce the so-called LGBT Act across Poland if he was elected
president.
src

13-07-2020 12:59pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Im not backtracking on anything. Nobody in this thread has celebrated the persecution of anybody.

Ireland is a long way from tolerance of trans people, Poland is even further away, but Ill admit I would not want them following our corrupt path to 'tolerance'

I haven't seen any evidence or anything about this , do you have anything (preferably in English) to back this up ? would have thought we'd have heard if there was something as extreme as 'lgbt free zones' in the EU.

Sex education and what should be / shouldn't be taught and at what age is a divisive topic so we'll leave that one out for now.

I linked to it only a few pages back but sure here's another article... Calling sex educators paedophiles is something you want to leave to the wayside? You don't think that's a questionable thing for a European government to be saying?

https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/23/these-photos-highlight-the-human-hurt-over-poland-s-lgbt-free-zones

gmisk · 13-07-2020 1:05pm

AndyTheDude wrote: »

I am straight, yes. You may be surprised but I don't go around looking for a LGBT person to punch them in the face.

I didn't suggest you did....chill out.
That poster just said there polish friends were upset by the result.

It is a bit of a tough subject for me....I was called a f@ggot by a couple of lads while walking home one night....then attacked and slashed in the face with a stanley knife. So homophobic attacks get my goat up so to speak, and Poland is seemingly pretty rife with them this result will imo increase the likelihood of a lot more.

sid waddell · 13-07-2020 1:05pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Duda Keeps pardoning convicted pedophiles and murderers...even when teh courts recommend against it. He is bent as ****.

It was very close tho....poland is divided.

No doubt the actual pardoning and protection of actual paedophiles would be applauded by the ragtag bunch of far right frauds who gathered in front of the Dáil on Saturday under the fraudulent banner of "anti-paedophilia".

The far right don't do irony.

Eric Cartman · 13-07-2020 1:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I linked to it only a few pages back but sure here's another article... Calling sex educators paedophiles is something you want to leave to the wayside? You don't think that's a questionable thing for a European government to be saying?

https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/23/these-photos-highlight-the-human-hurt-over-poland-s-lgbt-free-zones

jaysus thats a backward attitude to have. Poland still has a long way to go. Surprised I had never heard a thing about this mentioned before.

ILoveYourVibes · 13-07-2020 1:07pm

sid waddell wrote: »

No doubt the actual pardoning and protection of actual paedophiles would be applauded by the ragtag bunch of far right frauds who gathered in front of the Dáil on Saturday under the fraudulent banner of "anti-paedophilia".

The far right don't do irony.

You are probably right.:(

ILoveYourVibes · 13-07-2020 1:08pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

jaysus thats a backward attitude to have. Poland still has a long way to go. Surprised I had never heard a thing about this mentioned before.

I think he is their Trump.

sid waddell · 13-07-2020 1:11pm

excludedbin wrote: »

My point is simply that the same people get very angry about those countries when the subject of LGBT people comes up but when it's European countries, they're falling over themselves to defend it. The only hysteria is against minority groups, which some here are very quick to defend only in certain instances.

Anybody who focusses on LGBT people being denied their rights in majority Muslim countries and then applauds Duda and his far right cabal in Poland, cares nothing for LGBT people.

They are using fake concern for LGBT people in particular circumstances, as a convenient cloak to advance far right anti-LGBT interests elsewhere.

The shameless cynicism of it is breathtaking.

sid waddell · 13-07-2020 1:19pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are probably right.:(

I am right. The so called "anti-paedophilia" con artists in front of the Dail on Saturday want to drag Ireland back to a time when actual paedophiles were protected by the Catholic Church. Sure look at who was leading it - Justin Barrett of the insane bunch of theocratic loonies Youth Defence - who fought bitterly against every piece of progressive legislation and change in Ireland and fought against the exposing of historic sex crimes and barbaric treatment of vulnerable people at the hands of the Catholic church and the state.

You couldn't make it up.

Frankie Machine · 13-07-2020 1:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think people are aware that not every polish person is upset. There are also many Polish people who will never feel at home again in Poland because of some pretty awful policies.

And equally, there are Poles who have been in Ireland for a significant period of time, but are now uprooting back to Poland with their young families.

They prefer their children to be brought up in a society with more traditional values than they are being exposed to here.

It's a country with a generally conservative mindset, as is their right. Proud people whose misfortune is to be 'God's Playground' historically, stuck between two wrong-uns.

Unbelievable suffering and oppression in the 20th century, and although things are very visibly improving on the surface, everyday life is really a grind for a lot of people.

The Catholic church is still a heavy presence.

Considering the everyday priorities of the vast majority of the Polish people, a more informed perspective should see this as a terrific result for the extreme minority that is the LGBT community in Poland.

gmisk · 13-07-2020 1:32pm

Frankie Machine wrote: »

And equally, there are Poles who have been in Ireland for a significant period of time, but are now uprooting back to Poland with their young families.

They prefer their children to be brought up in a society with more traditional values than they are being exposed to here.

It's a country with a generally conservative mindset, as is their right. Proud people whose misfortune is to be 'God's Playground' historically, stuck between two wrong-uns.

Unbelievable suffering and oppression in the 20th century, and although things are very visibly improving on the surface, everyday life is really a grind for a lot of people.

The Catholic church is still a heavy presence.

Considering the everyday priorities of the vast majority of the Polish people, a more informed perspective should see this as a terrific result for the extreme minority that is the LGBT community in Poland.

"A more informed perspective"......rrrrright.
Such as?

I think calling LGBT an extreme majority is entirely disingenuous. Whether you like it or not there are a significant amount of people that fall under that umbrella.

sid waddell · 13-07-2020 1:34pm

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Considering the everyday priorities of the vast majority of the Polish people, a more informed perspective should see this as a terrific result for the extreme minority that is the LGBT community in Poland.

Being LGBT constitutes being "an extreme minority" now, apparently?!

And LGBT people should celebrate an anti-LGBT bigot winning?!

Bloody hell.

The Goebbels-like takes you get on here, eh?!

sid waddell · 13-07-2020 1:37pm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Not everyone agrees that gay marriage is a "right."

Do you think marriage between a man and a woman should be a right under the law?

sid waddell · 13-07-2020 1:40pm

AndyTheDude wrote: »

So you're saying that treatment of homosexual people is the same in Poland as in Muslim countries? You may want to post a few links with homosexuals being beheaded or pushed from rooftops in Poland then. Talk about hysteria... :rolleyes:

So you're saying there's such a thing as "an acceptable level of anti-LGBT discrimination and bigotry"?

As long as it's perpetrated by white people, no doubt.

Das Reich · 13-07-2020 1:50pm

Now I understand why EU wants Poland and Hungary to take loads of "refugees", cause they are more tolerant to lgbt policies.

Honestly, people on here never lived in poor country. There are many of other problems to be fixed other than rights to a very minority group. Leave those things to already developed countries and privileged people as they have not many other problems to think about.

gmisk · 13-07-2020 1:54pm

Das Reich wrote: »

Now I understand why EU wants Poland and Hungary to take loads of "refugees", cause they are more tolerant to lgbt policies.

Honestly, people on here never lived in poor country. There are many of other problems to be fixed other than rights to a very minority group. Leave those things to already developed countries and privileged people as they have not many other problems to think about.

Absolutely loopy bizarre logic....well done.
People's rights don't matter because other issues exist...

13-07-2020 1:54pm

Das Reich wrote: »

Now I understand why EU wants Poland and Hungary to take loads of "refugees", cause they are more tolerant to lgbt policies.

Honestly, people on here never lived in poor country. There are many of other problems to be fixed other than rights to a very minority group. Leave those things to already developed countries and privileged people as they have not many other problems to think about.

Eh, this is Poland actively targeting gay people. LGBT free zones is an actively regressive policy...

biko · 13-07-2020 1:56pm

AndyTheDude wrote: »

So you're saying

sid waddell wrote: »

So you're saying

Frankie Machine · 13-07-2020 2:21pm

gmisk wrote: »

"A more informed perspective"......rrrrright.
Such as?

Such as understanding the history and people of Poland, as well as their everyday lives and concerns; and conversely, not viewing their electoral choices through the comparatively pampered easy lives that we have here.

I think calling LGBT an extreme majority is entirely disingenuous.

Indeed. Was it your haste to go on the attack that led you to directly state the opposite to what I said ?

Whether you like it or not there are a significant amount of people that fall under that umbrella.

Not enough to carry the vote, of course.

Whether either of us like it or not, the Polish people voted as they did.

excludedbin · 13-07-2020 2:27pm

What you're talking about is tyranny of the majority, not democracy. Any modern democracy has protections for minority groups precisely so the majority can't trample all over them. And yeah, it is easy for you to pontificate from the relative comfort of not being one of the people being effected by the vote.

Frankie Machine · 13-07-2020 2:43pm

sid waddell wrote: »

Being LGBT constitutes being "an extreme minority" now, apparently?!

And LGBT people should celebrate an anti-LGBT bigot winning?!

Bloody hell.

The Goebbels-like takes you get on here, eh?!

Straight on the attack with a puerile misrepresentation of what I said. And a Nazi reference.

It is a terrific result in the sense that it is definitely a progression from the traditional and still-strong stranglehold of the church, a very strong emphasis still on the traditional family and children in particular, and an overall conservatism.

That's quite a different thing from suggesting that people celebrate the victory of a bigot, which I did not do.

I simply think that it is a total ignorance of Poland and it's people to be petulant about it's democratic decisions on social matters, after relatively few years of EU membership, and less restricted work and travel. And relatively few years of democracy, come to that.

The people voted. Let's see what happens next. We may hear about electoral fraud, who knows ?

Cordell · 13-07-2020 2:54pm

I simply think that it is a total ignorance of Poland and it's people to be petulant about it's democratic decisions on social matters

No, we should not be ignorant of democratic* decisions that reinforce autocratic leaders' positions and/or human rights violations when this happens in the EU. When it happens in some ME s.hole there's nothing we can do about it, but we need to keep this sht out of Europe, because it was here before and it wasn't pretty.

*the democratic part is questionable, and that's not by implying voting fraud. The European values involve both democracy and listening to the minority voice.

gmisk · 13-07-2020 3:02pm

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Such as understanding the history and people of Poland, as well as their everyday lives and concerns; and conversely, not viewing their electoral choices through the comparatively pampered easy lives that we have here.

Indeed. Was it your haste to go on the attack that led you to directly state the opposite to what I said ?

Not enough to carry the vote, of course.

Whether either of us like it or not, the Polish people voted as they did.

I wasn't going on the attack I was simply replying to your post. So chill out.

"Considering the everyday priorities of the vast majority of the Polish people, a more informed perspective should see this as a terrific result for the extreme minority that is the LGBT community in Poland."

So your saying the "extreme minority" as you put it (I definitely wouldn't) of LGBT in Poland should be delighted with Duda getting in again despite the clearly pervasive anti LGBT policies and attitude he extolls....why exactly should they? Would you if you were in their position?

Frankie Machine · 13-07-2020 3:03pm

Cordell wrote: »

No, we should not be ignorant of democratic* decisions that reinforce autocratic leaders' positions and/or human rights violations when this happens in the EU. When it happens in some ME s.hole there's nothing we can do about it, but we need to keep this sht out of Europe, because it was here before and it wasn't pretty.

*the democratic part is questionable, and that's not by implying voting fraud. The European values involve both democracy and listening to the minority voice.

The EU was not blind to the realities of Polish society when it allowed it into the club.

I have little patience for the idea that because people get a load of money thrown at them, that they just roll over and become what their 'betters' tell them they must be.

There's an interesting view about this by a Polish journalist based in Germany, on a German TV panel show. Have to go out now, but will try to find the link late and post it up.

In the meantime, not being too conversant with it, I've looked up the Wiki page on Polish LGBT rights. It's far from theocratic, I'd say.

Can't link it because I'm a new poster.

Interested to hear from anyone who can refute anything there... ?

suicide_circus · 13-07-2020 3:05pm

best of luck to the lgbt peeps of poland, your struggle for rights is delayed but only delayed, tiocfaidh do la

edit: why cant boards handle a fada?

Polish Presidential election

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