DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

Doc76 wrote: »

So I’ve decided to sign up to the race series south dublin 10k... did anyone do it last year? What’s the course like and the parking situation (still not over missing the race series 1/2 a few years back due to the traffic debacle ) I loved the Fingal 10k course just wondering how it compares. Thanks!

I did it last year, it was a great race in my opinion. It's a very flat track and has a decent bit of support in the village. The run goes down the dual carriageway and through Corkagh park and goes down the canal after going through Clondalkin. For the most part the road surface is very even and there's a good bit of room for runners to spread out without needing to zig-zag around swathes of runners at the start. The narrowest sections tend to be well into the race.

There is plenty of parking and it's very well organised. There's going to be plenty of cars there though so you might have some slight delays when you finish.

Having said that I left fairly sharpish after I finished the race and had pretty much no problems with traffic.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Quick question on PMP calculation.

2 weeks ago I got a predicted time of 4:48 based on a 10k race from Feb and a half marathon from March.

I reviewed it yesterday after my 5km race from Friday and kept the half marathon time (as I thought it is prob a better indicator, it being a longer race) and I got 4:46.

I know it's only 2mins, but still ... yahoo!!

Juat wondering two things:

1. Is it better to use longer races to calculate marathon time, ie: the 10km and half rather than the 5k and half as I'll obviously never sustain my 5km effort in the marathon?

2. My plan is to review my PMP after every race. Is that the right idea?

Thank you

Yes, I would use 10 m - Half for calculating paces as 5km is a good indicator but as you train and follow the plan it will build your endurance and so if you're giving the race series a lash, as that's what they are there for, I would adjust times accordingly.

Not sure what happenes with a bad race result, ignore a move on? Yes.

Hello! Secured a place in DCM and have been browsing this board - great reading, tips and hints.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
I've done the Belfast Marathon for the last 2 years in a row (4.08 and 3.52). All other pbs have been reached in training /general runs

PBs
5k 22.44
10k 46.21
Half 1.45.11
Marathon 3.52.18

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
Usually try to get out 4 times a week, am fairly fit after completing the Belfast marathon in May. One night a week is 10k trails / hills etc with friends, others on road. Maybe 20 miles a week

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
Want to improve my time, finish in 3.45 would be the target. 3.40 would be a dream

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
Will do the boards plan, 4 or 5 days per week without changing current set up too much. Need to include strides / intervals into my training which has been lacking to date

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?
Injury

Why are you running this marathon?
Motivation to keep fit, get fitter, and improve running form.


Looking forward to following everyone's progress in training.

Baz

DaaaaaaaaaaN wrote: »

What is the best way to carry water on the longer runs? I don't particularly want to be carrying water bottles or wearing silly looking vests to hold bottles so curious as to how you guys manage it.

I wear a belt with bottles or I bring money to buy water when I pass a shop. Others stash their water along the route before they run it.

mister paul wrote: »

A quick question for those more experienced than I with this whole marathon thing, I'm following the meno plan after talking to people from these parts who've used it before and reckon I'll be able for it. Just starting week 2 now.

My 5k PB (May '19) is 19:44 (also ran 19:46 in the same month)

Based on the "more accurate" marathon calculator (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/) and a plan that should average 44 miles per week during marathon training, I should be able to run a 3:24 marathon. That's a pace of about 7:47 per mile.

The general consensus seems to be that other calculators are relatively accurate for every distance up to and including half-marathon but they have me running about 3:10 for the marathon (not a snowballs hope in hell of hitting that).

So my question, should my 10k, 10m and HM target paces be derived using my 5k time on the tinman calculator, or should I enter the project 538 marathon time into tinman and use that as a basis to get the other paces?

Or is there a third way of calculating them that I haven't considered?

There's a fairly big difference between working up from 5k and down from marathon (Project 538 estimate).

Distance|Project 538|Pace|Tinman|Pace
26.2|3:23:59|7:47|3:09:59|7:15
13.1|1:37:57|7:28|1:31:14|6:57
10m|1:13:19|7:19|1:08:18|6:49
10k|44:08|7:06|41:06|6:36

Hope the question makes sense to someone...

I suppose the biggest danger here is using a 5k time as any sort of indicator of a prospective marathon performance. Even using Half Marathon race times is fraught with danger. If you think sub 3:25 is a target then i'd base your training paces off that time (have you looked at the Jack Daniels calcuator too?)

As regards your race paces, i think that you should let them come naturally as the block progresses. You're gonna keep improving and who knows where you'll be in two months time going into a 10 mile race. I remember for my second marathon i made some jumps during that block that i didn't think were possible beforehand.

Race calculators are something that most of us succumb to. They're nice when you hit equivalent times, and give mere mortals like ourselves some signposts en route to wherever we're going, but (no matter what data they claim to use, or algorithims they apply) they're still to be taken on board with a load of caveats.

healy1835 wrote: »

I suppose the biggest danger here is using a 5k time as any sort of indicator of a prospective marathon performance. Even using Half Marathon race times is fraught with danger. If you think sub 3:25 is a target then i'd base your training paces off that time (have you looked at the Jack Daniels calcuator too?)

As regards your race paces, i think that you should let them come naturally as the block progresses. You're gonna keep improving and who knows where you'll be in two months time going into a 10 mile race. I remember for my second marathon i made some jumps during that block that i didn't think were possible beforehand.

Race calculators are something that most of us succumb to. They're nice when you hit equivalent times, and give mere mortals like ourselves some signposts en route to wherever we're going, but (no matter what data they claim to use, or algorithims they apply) they're still to be taken on board with a load of caveats.

+1 to this. I also noticed quite a few others getting caught up in talk about target times. As ariana said, it is too early for this. Please everybody just train to paces suggested by the training paces calculator. Let the times and fitness come to you. In five months time you or your friends won't care if you run 4:48, 4:50 or 5:50. You will have run a marathon...that's the target!

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Week 2 off to a good start:)
I just realised i signed up for the Clane 5k this Sunday( had completely forgotten about it!) Am i ok to still do my long run on Sat then race Sun morning?

As in race it all out? Not a great idea as that would mean two tough runs back to back, which would be an injury risk.

skyblue46 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this as a plan. Another option would be to stay with the pacers until mile 9/10 and then finish at your HM pace just to get that nice feeling of running strongly late in the race.

Huzzah! wrote: »

Just to add that some of it is run on sand and there can be a headwind, so if the effort feels high, please don't feel compelled to stay in the group.

Great stuff, exactly what I was hoping to hear. I had been thinking about trying to pick up to HM pace towards the end alright, but I’ll only do that if I’m feeling really comfortable and easy. I’ll definitely be careful with the sand, a friend who did it a previous year had mentioned it caused him an injury. They make it sound more like compacted trail in the race description.

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Yes was gonna race it? So what would be an alternative for me?

If you are doing your LSR on a Saturday, then you could use the 5k race as your recovery run i.e. run at recovery pace. You could also run your LSR on the Sunday and incorporate the 5k run into it - again the 5k will need to be run at your LSR pace. You might actually enjoy the 5k race running at such a slow pace

Remember, DCM is your target now - not the 5k race

fatboyfin wrote: »

Ok, so having just joined the thread, and having spent the last 3 hours reading all the posts, I think I will reevaluate my run for tonight. Was planning a 8 or 10 mile run at 8.15 or 8.30min miles ..... but given the emphasis here on slowing down I figure best to take it down a notch to something more like 9min miles which will likely feel very slow but perhaps more enjoyable! And maybe take the distance down to 5 or 6 miles. Is this more along the lines to be thinking?

That would be a step in the right direction. I'd go so far as to say 9:30 per mile would be a good pace to go at.

fatboyfin wrote: »

thanks skyblue46

All feels counter intuitive!

It is of course. But you've speed read the thread and I presume have picked up on the reasons to do it. Remember you have done a 3:52 marathon. Doing easy runs at faster than your MP won't help your endurance or aerobic capacity....easy runs at 10 mins per mile most definitely will.

kemcloughlin wrote: »

Ok I am convinced I need to change my approach. I went into McMillan and current pace based on 10k time is 10.57 for a 10 mile and 11.44 for a marathon.

Can someone please help me:

What pace do I do the easy runs and what pace do I do the lsr this week? What pace do I do my 10 mile race on Saturday? I am going HHN1 week 2

Sorry for all the questions but I need to get my head around this! Thanks for reading!

There is a tab for training paces on that McMillan calculator. If you are using anything other than a desktop, such as a phone or tablet, I think you need to turn it sideways to landscape view to be able to see it.

DeepBlue wrote: »

I tried McMillan's suggested easy pace of 8.11 - 9.12 and this felt more of "moderate" pace rather than an "easy" pace. It definitely didn't feel like something I could keep doing all day if I had to.

Yes, MacMillan suggested that my easy pace should be faster, tried that, didn't like it and haven't settled on the correct easy pace yet but it's going to err on the slow side - probably something like 9.15 - 9.50 with LSRs something like 10.10 - 10.30.


Yes, I moved my LSR forward to today, easy run tomorrow and PMP run on Thursday with recovery run on Sunday. Going to go with fivethirtyeight's suggested PMP time of 8.46min/mile and ditch McMillan's suggestion of 8.01.

This is a really smart and sensible approach. I find the McMillan paces to be on the fast side. I'd definitely think the slower end of easy is as fast as anyone should run easy with the LSRs a bit slower. Settling on your paces like you have done will be a huge benefit to you.

Don't give up on that after the first MP run. Your recent 5km shows pace isn't an issue and you'll build the endurance with the plan. There are days when MP will feel rubbish, and there will be days when it feels great.

As you said, you ran faster than usual last night, and depending what time that was at, perhaps not allowing a full 24 hours between runs will even affect you. Keep the chin up, even if felt hard you went out and got it done.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Anyway, I honestly don't mind if 4:30 is a non runner this year because it will be one day. Just glad to be part of it and want to enjoy it. And hopefully the heatwave goes away soon :P

Great attitude, and you're not afraid of the work anyway! I think you'll surprise yourself along the way

jackc101 wrote:

I had a similar experience this morning, running my first 3 miles at PMP (that's 5:40/km for me) I had trouble with pacing, all of it was too fast, so the total pace including the mile warm up and mile warm down was 5:41/km

Practice, practice, practice. Do you use a watch that you can set up pace bands on? It can be helpful to let you know when you're going too fast, and it will beep so much you'll be annoyed into keeping it right

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Did my first marathon pace miles this morning and they were not easy. I can kiss goodbye to any notion of a 4:30 marathon right away.

I ran my easy run last night with a friend which resulted in a faster-than-usual run which was a mistake I wont be repeating. Maybe the weather also played a part. I am so tired.

Edited to add that I am also happy with myself for sticking to pace more or less. I was about 30sec faster sometimes, then would slow down to end up 30sec slower. Trying to get the pace right was tricky but the overall pace per mile was right. This will get easier as the weeks go on I'm sure

Don't worry at all about this

I did a 5k race 7 weeks ago and at the time hit roughly what I had hoped for marathon pace. Currently I am running the same pace at roughly HM effort and don't expect it to feel like MP for roughly another 7 weeks. As long as you keep plugging away you will surprise yourself with how the fitness comes along.

Think of it like rolling a snowball. Takes alot of effort to get going but once you do as long as you keep it rolling the fitness will grow bigger and bigger before your very eyes.