weather and de icing problems for Ryanair at Dublin 03-03-19 Airport

Caranica · 04-03-2019 10:23pm

Thanks, I've lodged a claim through a third party (despite crazy commission but my life is hectic at the moment) and I'll let you know how I get on.

tommyombomb · 04-03-2019 10:27pm

Caranica wrote: »

Thanks, I've lodged a claim through a third party (despite crazy commission but my life is hectic at the moment) and I'll let you know how I get on.

So easy to do yourself. Send email to airline and quote legislation. They come back and send you a check. Done

Caranica · 04-03-2019 10:47pm

tommyombomb wrote: »

So easy to do yourself. Send email to airline and quote legislation. They come back and send you a check. Done

I know, realised it afterwards but what's done is done.

billy few mates · 05-03-2019 6:28am

Yes but often the response of some of these airlines is to refuse your claim by attempting to blame the delays on something that's not covered by the legislation or calling it a knock on effect from an earlier event when often this wasn't the case in the hope you'll drop it and go away.
They might for example try to claim that the delays were caused by factors beyond their control (the weather) in which case you wouldn't be covered under EU261 legislation.

If the real cause of the delays was the weather (which is beyond their control) you get nothing.
If it was the shortage of de-icing rigs on the day (which is most certainly within their control) you have a claim.

Irish Steve · 05-03-2019 10:11am

Another factor is very possibly that Ryanair may no longer have ramp bus facilities at Dublin, so were unable to put inbound aircraft on remote stands and bus the passengers to the terminal. In the same vein, the delayed departures did not need to stay on the contact stands, unless there was no remote stands available to put them on while they waited, so the whole can of worms becomes very complex. That said, I don't know if the Ryanair tugs are radio equipped, as towing to remote stands requires either a radio in the tug or an ops escort, and with the weather the way it was, getting an ops escort for a tow could have been problematic, and getting a route through to remote parking may not have been easy, with the number of queuing aircraft that were blocking the taxiways.

The unfortunate reality is that the short term weather was more severe and more widespread than was expected, and some of the issues are that the weather forecasting services are getting a poor reputation for issuing reliable alerts, and people are becoming alert hardened, and tend to look at them and then not respond with the correct level of preparation, it wasn't just the airport that was in trouble, the motorways were not great either, and a lot of people were inadequately prepared for the potential conditions, the classic being the family with a 5 month old baby that got way too much prime time media coverage because their trip from Cork to Dublin took 7 hours, listening closely, they were completely unprepared for the trip, but it was a cheap easy story for the media to blast the response services over.

Caranica · 05-03-2019 12:39pm

The third party have come back and said it was adverse weather. Rather than contest that with them I've lodged a claim directly with Ryanair myself

Stovepipe · 05-03-2019 1:58pm

All airport tugs used in Dublin have radios; they cant be used without them, full stop.

Squatter · 05-03-2019 2:06pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

a lot of people were inadequately prepared for the potential conditions, the classic being the family with a 5 month old baby that got way too much prime time media coverage because their trip from Cork to Dublin took 7 hours, listening closely, they were completely unprepared for the trip, but it was a cheap easy story for the media to blast the response services over.

Couldn't believe that it was the lead story on yesterday's RTE Radio News at One. I honestly thought that I was listening to Joe Duffy's Liveline!

RTE's news programmes have certainly dumbed down a lot since Director of News Jon Williams decided that tabloidization and bimbos was the bright future of RTE news broadcasting.

(apologies for hijack).

NebPlanders · 05-03-2019 4:34pm

I tried to claim for compensation and expenses for a cancelled flight from Manchester to Dublin. Ryanair have rejected the flight compensation owing it to extraordinary circumstances. If you had a cancelled flight from the UK to Ireland I'd advise once Ryanair have fobbed you off to go directly to the CAA (caa.co.uk - you have to log the complaint with the country you were in). With other airlines being operational, and the de-icers being the responsibility of the air line there's a high chance (at least in my opinion!) that there is grounds for compensation.

Caranica · 05-03-2019 6:15pm

I've had to go to CAA too, Ryanair insisting my flight got in 7 minutes late. We actually got in 15 minutes early but were trapped on the plane for 3 hours 40 minutes after that.

California Dreamer · 06-03-2019 6:56am

Random question. Aircraft lands but you are stuck on the ramp somewhere for 1,2,3 hours plus. Could you not demand that the airline open a door and let you off?

Is it not a form of false imprisonment?

Could you ring the Garda and say you are being held against your will?

Maybe pull a slide and get off the aircraft?

terencemc · 06-03-2019 10:02am

Im gonna put a claim in for flying out...I assume they will say that the weather was exceptional but I'm ready to fight...if some aer lingus flights took off they can't argue it was the weather but their own wrongdoing. I'll let yee know how it goes

basill · 06-03-2019 10:24am

CD,

1. You could but the captain can't do much if he doesn't have a stand to park and doesn't have a clearance from ATC to move anywhere.

2. Not really. You have a contract with the airline to get from A to B. You haven't safely arrived at B yet being on a taxiway.

3. You most certainly could try that and the crew would most likely be thankful. I can't see it speeding up the process though. If there isn't anywhere to park then the Gardai can't magic up a parking spot.

4. That would be very foolish, could even cost you or your fellow passengers their lives. The engines are more than likely running and it will take the crew a few seconds to realise what is going on before they can switch off the engine masters and cut the engines. The engines will still be spinning and represent a threat of you being sucked or your fellow passengers being sucked into them until they have spun down sufficiently. More than likely a bunch of other passengers on seeing the slide(s) deploy are going to hurtle down after you throwing their bags down the slide as well. People will get injured on the slides for sure based on real world data of these types of evacuations. If you survive then you could well be held culpable for at the least criminal damage to the aircraft but also face responsibility for any harm that has come to the other passengers by your actions. As its now turned into a full blown emergency the airport will close due to lack of rescue and firefighting cover and there will be financial costs for all of the diversions. The recent Canadian case where a passenger was held responsible for the cost of a turn back should serve as a warning that airlines are less and less likely to put up with any of this type of stuff any more. If you do manage to get away with all of the above then at the very least you will be banned for flying again on the airline.

Kev11491 · 06-03-2019 12:53pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Random question. Aircraft lands but you are stuck on the ramp somewhere for 1,2,3 hours plus. Could you not demand that the airline open a door and let you off?

Is it not a form of false imprisonment?

Could you ring the Garda and say you are being held against your will?

Maybe pull a slide and get off the aircraft?

They're keeping you inside because of health and safety. False imprisonment would be a bit of a foolish argument as they're actively trying to get the plane in and passengers off. I mean if you used that argument could circling an airport for an extended period of time waiting for a slot to land be considered as false imprisonment?

Stovepipe · 06-03-2019 1:22pm

Sometimes its down to a shortage of safe passenger steps to get you off the aircraft and buses to get you into the terminal from a remote stand. Maintenance steps are not suitable for disembarking passengers unless it was a real emergency. Most airlines at Dublin do not have buses and tend to use one supplier, who can get easily swamped if demand is too high. Also, most do not have their own in-house deicing kit so they have to use a dedicated supplier. It's all about shaving costs off. The DAA are also partly responsible, in my opinion, as they generate rules that often bear no relation to reality.

Credit Checker Moose · 06-03-2019 2:50pm

Remember the flight has not arrived until the doors open. Something that some airlines don't seem to know about.

It will be interesting to get some CAR rulings on being held inside a plane for 3 hours.

California Dreamer · 06-03-2019 4:03pm

Kev11491 wrote: »

health and safety

Ah the 2 words that can be used for so many excuses. I hope whoever coined that phrase is a millionaire at least!

California Dreamer · 06-03-2019 4:06pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

Sometimes its down to a shortage of safe passenger steps to get you off the aircraft

400 plus aircraft in the Ryanair fleet and they all have airstairs.

I am not arguing the point for the sake of it. I just think I would be doing my nut in sitting on an aircraft for 3 hours if this had happened to me.

LXFlyer · 06-03-2019 4:15pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

400 plus aircraft in the Ryanair fleet and they all have airstairs.

I am not arguing the point for the sake of it. I just think I would be doing my nut in sitting on an aircraft for 3 hours if this had happened to me.

And are there stands and ground staff available?

Sometimes you just have to accept that things are out of your control.

I had to sit on an LH aircraft at Munich two years ago for two hours because of a violent thunderstorm which meant it wasn’t safe for staff to be on the apron. It was frustrating but what could I do?

Caranica · 06-03-2019 4:52pm

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Remember the flight has not arrived until the doors open. Something that some airlines don't seem to know about.

It will be interesting to get some CAR rulings on being held inside a plane for 3 hours.

That's what I based my claim on. 3 hours 40 minutes after landing or 3 hours 25 minutes after scheduled arrival time so should qualify if they will look at the technical inadequacy rather than the weather.

I also asked the CAA to follow up on Ryanair's failure to provide free food and refreshments after two hours as per EU261, instead only providing paid for food and refreshments after three hours.

We had screaming babies and kids, at least one passenger having a full on panic attack and a plane load of cranky passengers. Fun it was not!

billy few mates · 06-03-2019 6:15pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

And are there stands and ground staff available?

Sometimes you just have to accept that things are out of your control.

I had to sit on an LH aircraft at Munich two years ago for two hours because of a violent thunderstorm which meant it wasn’t safe for staff to be on the apron. It was frustrating but what could I do?

I'd rather be stuck on a Lufthansa aircraft for two hours than a Ryanair aircraft for two hours...

Noxegon · 06-03-2019 6:52pm

billy few mates wrote: »

I'd rather be stuck on a Lufthansa aircraft for two hours than a Ryanair aircraft for two hours...

I'd rather be stuck on a Lufthansa aircraft for eight hours than a Ryanair aircraft for two...

Northern lassie · 06-03-2019 10:19pm

I put in a compensation claim to Ryanair too and this is the reply I got today:

I refer to your recent correspondence dated 06-03-2019.

I regret the delay of your flight FR 1958 from Dublin - DUB to Nice - NCE on the 03-03-2019, which was due to adverse weather conditions (snow).

As this delay was unexpected we wish to inform you that no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to extraordinary circumstances beyond Ryanair's control.

I hope the above clarifies the situation.
Yours sincerely,

I written back and asked them what were the extraordinary circumstances that caused the delay and that I hoped it was unexpected!

Will let you know what reply I receive.

L1011 · 06-03-2019 10:25pm

I would suspect that everyone is going to have to go to court on this one, as they'll attempt to blame weather.

Credit Checker Moose · 06-03-2019 10:36pm

It will be a landmark ruling when someone does go to court.

billy few mates · 07-03-2019 6:47am

This is the problem with the way the legislation is applied, the default position if the airline is often to deny the claim in the hope you'll drop it and you're then forced to jump through hoops to claim your entitlement. People should be able to claim directly from the CAR who could then recover the cost of the claims from the operator.

It snowed for about three hours on Sunday, there was barely an inch of snow, if the airport remained fully open and operational at all times and other operators were able to maintain their schedule then the reason for the delays wasn't the snow it was the shortage of de-icing equipment.

terencemc · 07-03-2019 11:12am

I received this REPLY from ryanair after outlining why it was not extraordinary. I will be challenging this straight away.

Does anyone know what my next course of action should be?
The EU online dispute resolution? IE or EU small claims court?

Dear XXX,

We refer to your recent correspondence dated 07/03/2019.

We regret the cancellation of your flight 2998 from Dublin - DUB to Amsterdam - AMS on the 03/03/2019 which was due to airplane's deicing delays caused by adverse weather condotions (snow).

As this cancellation was unexpected we wish to inform you that no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to extraordinary circumstances beyond Ryanair's control.

We note you will now receive a refund for your cancelled flight in the amount of 21.56 EUR within the next few days.

We trust that the above clarifies the situation.

Sincerely yours,
C. Bartosiewicz

billy few mates · 07-03-2019 5:23pm

terencemc wrote: »

I received this REPLY from ryanair after outlining why it was not extraordinary. I will be challenging this straight away.

Does anyone know what my next course of action should be?
The EU online dispute resolution? IE or EU small claims court?

Dear XXX,

Thank you for contacting Ryanair.

In relation to your recent correspondence we inform you that I have forwarded your correspondence to relevant department and a response will be sent to you in due course. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this matter has caused you. Should you have further questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

Yours sincerely,

T. G. Szucs

For and on Behalf of
Ryanair DAC

I'd wait and see what they come back with first, they haven't rejected it yet...

terencemc · 07-03-2019 6:08pm

My bad...I pasted in the wrong mail. The correct one is there now...

billy few mates · 07-03-2019 6:22pm

terencemc wrote: »

My bad...I pasted in the wrong mail. The correct one is there now...

If it were me I'd write to the CAR and let them decide if a shortage of de-icing equipment is a circumstance beyond their control, after that I'd make a complaint to the UK CAA and then a complaint to the small claims court. Big companies hate having to defend themselves in the SCC as it usually often costs them more to represent themselves than the cost of the claim, if they don't turn up you'll get a judgement in default against them.
If you don't have the time to go through all that then give it to one of the companies mentioned earlier who'll do all the legwork for you for a percentage of the claim, no win no fee.

L1011 · 07-03-2019 6:50pm

The scalpers are refusing the case as it's too awkward from what some posters have said. You need some level of local knowledge to know it wasn't just "weather" as a cause

billy few mates · 07-03-2019 7:02pm

L1011 wrote: »

The scalpers are refusing the case as it's too awkward from what some posters have said. You need some level of local knowledge to know it wasn't just "weather" as a cause

Even Airhelp...?
Download the free app and fill in the details.

The CAR will surely know what the weather was like on the day, unless the whole Airport was closed and every other operator was affected you should be able to argue your case...
I flew out of DUB early Monday morning (not on Ryanair) so I was checking the arrivals and departures on Sunday evening in case my flight might have been affected, it wasn't. One carrier appeared to have been worse affected than others, I'd be gathering the information on all delayed flights at the airport that night and using that information to support my case...

faoiarvok · 07-03-2019 7:11pm

billy few mates wrote: »

Even Airhelp...?
Download the free app and fill in the details.

The CAR will surely know what the weather was like on the day, unless the whole Airport was closed and every other operator was affected you should be able to argue your case...
I flew out of DUB early Monday morning (not on Ryanair) so I was checking the arrivals and departures on Sunday evening in case my flight might have been affected, it wasn't. One carrier appeared to have been worse affected than others, I'd be gathering the information on all delayed flights at the airport that night and using that information to support my case...

Dublin Airport Twitter had a load of tweets that night explaining that there were no closures due to snow and that delays were caused by de-icing, which is responsibility of airlines or their handlers. Those could well come in handy as supporting evidence also.

Credit Checker Moose · 07-03-2019 7:13pm

It is something that they cannot use their templates for. It will require some real work.

terencemc · 07-03-2019 9:07pm

Right, i may as well strike when the irons are hot.

Who are the CAR? Google has failed me...

The UK CAA will handle this issue even though I was flying Dublin to Amsterdam?

Anyone have any screenshots of departures from dublin airport on Sunday night?

L1011 · 07-03-2019 9:21pm

Comission for Aviation Regulation. UK CAA are irrelevant to you.

terencemc · 07-03-2019 9:32pm

So for Ireland (I'll ask my dutchie friends too on this side) its just the small claims court then?

I emailed these guys today to see if I am allowed to bring a case - the EU online dispute resolution:
https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main/?event=main.trader.register

Has anyone ever used them?

Caranica · 07-03-2019 9:48pm

Ryanair directed me to the CAA so that's where my claim is now.

billy few mates · 07-03-2019 10:17pm

L1011 wrote: »

Comission for Aviation Regulation. UK CAA are irrelevant to you.

The UK CAA have previously taken endorsement action against them in the past, while they ask you to approach your own regulator first that doesn't mean they won't be interested in your case. It won't cost you anything to write to them and let them know what's going on.
In the past they've proven themselves to be more proactive in reminding operators of their obligations under the terms of the legislation than our own regulator.

https://www.caa.co.uk/Passengers/Resolving-travel-problems/Delays-cancellations/Making-a-claim/What-to-do-if-your-claim-is-rejected/

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/UK-Civil-Aviation-Authority-begins-enforcement-action-against-Ryanair/

terencemc · 08-03-2019 8:58am

Caranica - were you flying to the UK though?

Caranica · 08-03-2019 9:10am

terencemc wrote: »

Caranica - were you flying to the UK though?

From the UK so that must be why.

terencemc · 08-03-2019 10:36am

I found the Irish equivalent of the CAA...and they redirected me here:
https://www.flightrights.ie/home/complaint-procedure.452.html

I'll keep you up to date on how it goes...I've taken a screenshot of the Dublin airport twitter page...has anyone any more supporting material?

L1011 · 08-03-2019 11:10am

billy few mates wrote: »

The UK CAA have previously taken endorsement action against them in the past, while they ask you to approach your own regulator first that doesn't mean they won't be interested in your case. It won't cost you anything to write to them and let them know what's going on.
In the past they've proven themselves to be more proactive in reminding operators of their obligations under the terms of the legislation than our own regulator.

https://www.caa.co.uk/Passengers/Resolving-travel-problems/Delays-cancellations/Making-a-claim/What-to-do-if-your-claim-is-rejected/

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/UK-Civil-Aviation-Authority-begins-enforcement-action-against-Ryanair/

The flight info I was replying to didn't touch the UK so they would have zero authority.

Corca Baiscinn · 08-03-2019 4:32pm

billy few mates wrote: »

Just follow the signs for the T1 gates, it's a five to ten minute stroll.

It also has the advantage that when you look at the screens in T2 it will tell you the actual gate for your flight in T1.
In T1 it won't tell you until thirty minutes before departure because they want to keep you in the shops...

Cosmo and Twentygrand and yourself seem to have this down to a T but I'm still puzzled. When you say "follow the signs, do they say T1 as well as the numbers or do you just know the T1 sequence is ***? Think the gates are numbered 40X and 30X but I could be mistaken. I'm usually travelling from T1 but the Gate doesn't come up until shortly before the boarding time so you're hanging around near the signs.

Remember seeing on last year's airport tips thread though that the food choices in T1 are better so would be good to know how to move between them

VG31 · 08-03-2019 4:46pm

Follow the signs for gates 1xx to 3xx. 100/200/300 gates are Terminal 1; 400 gates are Terminal 2.

Tenger · 09-03-2019 12:12am

VG31 wrote: »

Follow the signs for gates 1xx to 3xx. 100/200/300 gates are Terminal 1; 400 gates are Terminal 2.

Slight adjustment;
1xx and 2xx are Terminal 1.
4xx gates are Terminal 2.
3xx gates have a mix of T1 and T2 flights.
3xx are the closest gates to T1 security point.

For those old enough to remember when it was just the airport Terminal;
1xx = D gates
2xx = A gates
3xx = B gates
C gates were demolished to build T2.

VG31 · 09-03-2019 1:17am

Tenger wrote: »

Slight adjustment;
1xx and 2xx are Terminal 1.
4xx gates are Terminal 2.
3xx gates have a mix of T1 and T2 flights.
3xx are the closest gates to T1 security point.

True, but the 3xx gates are in Terminal 1. At least Pier B/gates 301-307A are (why 307A and not 308?). The bus gates 332-335 are a bit less clear cut but are still closer to T1 than T2.

The Veteran · 09-03-2019 1:59am

100, 200, 300 = T1

300, 400 = T2

The 300s are shared

For 300s; T1 Security is physically closer but T2 Security is only a few minutes walk away

There aren’t two terminals as such. For departures there are two entry points to one big shared terminal

Caranica · 19-04-2019 10:49am

Has anyone had a decision on their claims to to CAA?

terencemc · 19-04-2019 12:18pm

Not yet

weather and de icing problems for Ryanair at Dublin 03-03-19 Airport

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