New Consumer Unit recommendations

garo · 25-09-2020 4:11pm #1

So I'm in a 30 year old house and the consumer unit is a bit aged now. It is a 24-mod unit and it's completely full. Have also been having intermittent tripping on the sockets RCD.

I was getting a new EV charger installed and the electrician remarked that the main fuse connection is loose - he tightened it best he could - and the fusebox is knackered and I should get a new one along with getting the circuits tested for leakage etc.

I suppose it is reasonable to look to replace the whole fusebox? Bit of a shame that the EV guy put in a separate RCBO unit now because I asked him at the start about replacing the fusebox and he said no and proceeded with putting in the separate unit and then he tells me that the fusebox could do with replacing.

Any recommendations for which brand fusebox I should go for? Schneider or Garo? Should I buy the unit and the RCBOs myself or let him or whoever does the install supply it?
He was saying to replace the RCD feeding into multiple MCBs with separate RCBOs - seems a bit excessive to me.

Photo attached. The Stotz on the bottom right is the one that keeps tripping. The red main MCB on the far left bottom is a bit wonky.

Any recommendations on what I should get done?

Risteard81 · 25-09-2020 5:24pm

Hager for me.

You shouldn't buy it - your Electrician should.

25-09-2020 5:26pm

Avoid Garo like the plague.

I would go for ABB, Hager or Schnieder.

garo · 25-09-2020 7:58pm

Thanks both. The electrician was recommending Garo. When I said Schneider he seemed unsure. Maybe I need a different electrician?

You are agreed that that CU could do with replacing?

Finally is the standard now to have a dedicated RCBO per circuit? No RCD going to multiple RCBOs?

garo · 25-09-2020 7:59pm

2011 wrote: »

Avoid Garo like the plague.

That’s a bit hard for me to do. :P Look at my username.

Tuco88 · 25-09-2020 10:36pm

Garo are not great at all imo. I was never really a fan of GE also but definitely better than Garo. GE used to have a nice metal DB tho, just pefect to fill with Hager equipment &#55357;&#56833;

90% of electrical suppliers will stock Hager gear too.

Dubsparkie · 21-10-2020 5:00pm

I also have always avoided Garo, had a lot of bad experiences with them and Robus while we are at it. Hager has always been the leader for me.

garo · 21-10-2020 8:59pm

Just for closure I went with a full Hager install. Couldn’t be happier with the new CU and all new MCBs, 3 new RCDs and main switch. Reused the year old Solar RCBO (Garo!) and the week old EV RCBO (GE).

One question: I have the cooker, washer and dryer off the same MCB and RCD. THE RCD is fine, it’s 63A but the MCB is 20A Hager MBN120A. Each device would draw ~10A at peak. While I don’t use all three at the same time usually, never say never. Is this a risk? Should I get the spark to move the cooker circuit to another lower load socket circuit which is protected by the same RCD? Looking at the Hager MCB spec sheet it should trip after 400 seconds at 1.5 times the load. I can live with a rare trip but is it a safety issue?

21-10-2020 9:14pm

An electric cooker would be best fed from a dedicated MCB.

Tuco88 · 21-10-2020 9:19pm

I wouldnt be mixing brands of MCB/RCBOs thats just me.

A cooker is typically on its own circuit and is usually 32Amp MCB, it definitely should not be shared with sockets (Unless you mean just the oven seprate appliance) I don't think its the norm to have the Cooker on an RCD also.

I would also have the Dryer on its own circuit. And the washing machine on its own. If not possible id balance the two appliances over other circuits in the room.

garo · 21-10-2020 9:36pm

Sorry I keep making this mistake. I meant Electric Oven and not cooker. Our cooker is gas. The oven draws 2400W and is on a dedicated circuit. The washer and dryer are on their dedicated circuit too. It’s just the MCB and RCD that are shared for all the circuits.

The Oven wasn’t on an RCD in the previous setup but during the new install I asked the sparks to put it in a RCD.

@Tuco88: yeah not ideal to be mixing stuff but the two “off-label” RCBOs are for the dedicated Solar PV and EV charger circuits, installed recently and do not share anything with any of the other MCBs apart from the main in.

Tuco88 · 21-10-2020 9:44pm

I would definitely agree to have the oven on an RCD, good move there.

Its more of an OCD thing mixing manufacturers equipment. You just have to be aware of the terminals might not line up correctly for busbar, They might fit but usually distorts the busbar. Not a problem if panel flex is used.

garo · 21-10-2020 10:44pm

Thanks Tuco. Yeah I agree. The GE RCBO is just a teeny bit askew and that annoys me. Fortunately the Hager CU comes with a cover so I don’t have to look at it! The sparks was fine with it safety wise and he is an experienced hand so I skimped on the extra RCBO cost. The state the old CU was in previously - with non-RCD protected circuits and non-ferrule terminations, this is a massive improvement.

So I take it a 20A MCB protecting both the washer/dryer circuit and the cooker circuit is not a big deal?

Tuco88 · 21-10-2020 11:12pm

You just have to allow for diversity ( Ideally not running both the same time). I don't know the kW of the Dryer or washing machine. If you had both large appliances say 3kW each running both on the same circuit its 26amps not ideal. If it was a fuse it will blow around ~27/28Amps say with a fusing factor of 1.3/4.

But if it was previously like this with no issue its unlikely to cause tripping now.

Tuco88 · 21-10-2020 11:14pm

What are the kW of the Washing machine and Dryer and oven.

Work out the potential full load current on the circuit.

Is it going to be likely you'll have the oven on, Dryer on and Wash going?

garo · 21-10-2020 11:25pm

Just dug through the instruction manuals. The max loads are 2200, 2600 and 2800 for a total of 7600 or theoretical 33A on the 20A MCB. It’s an MCB not a fuse so I assume it just trips?

They are very unlikely to be on at the same time. In the last year it only happened once - I have a load monitor. And even then the washing machine only uses full power for a small period of time. Since we got solar PV we stagger major power consuming appliances and it has become a habit.

440Hertz · 21-10-2020 11:32pm

Hager seems to be the gold standard in Ireland for those boards. I wouldn't go near using cheap equipment for a device that is absolutely fundamental to home safety from the point of view of fire risk mitigation and electric shock protection.

Your electrician should buy it, but there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't have a preferred brand.

Working on the distribution board is also registered electrical contractor only territory.

Tuco88 · 22-10-2020 12:03am

If memory is right for the tripping curve its, 1.13 to 1.45 for mcbs. It should most definitely be operating at around 29Amps and beyond I would expect.

So you are right on the threshold. At least you know as the home owner, so you can work around it.

The Electrican obviously didn't wire the place to his liking and had to make best with cards he was given. We have all crossed that bridge.

The ideal world would be separate circuits.

JimToken · 22-10-2020 7:47am

Tuco88 wrote: »

I would definitely agree to have the oven on an RCD, good move there.

Its more of an OCD thing mixing manufacturers equipment. You just have to be aware of the terminals might not line up correctly for busbar, They might fit but usually distorts the busbar. Not a problem if panel flex is used.

DBs are type tested? and have an amp rating, for that reason I think you're not supposed to mix them

22-10-2020 8:22am

I installed a recessed Hager board in my own place.
Only thing about this model is the neutral bars/earth bar are the big blocky type and I prefer the traditional bars.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0029DEEOO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Chasing the ****er in was a chore but the finish was worth it.

Risteard81 · 22-10-2020 9:03am

Tuco88 wrote: »

If memory is right for the tripping curve its, 1.13 to 1.45 for mcbs. It should most definitely be operating at around 29Amps and beyond I would expect.

So you are right on the threshold. At least you know as the home owner, so you can work around it.

The Electrican obviously didn't wire the place to his liking and had to make best with cards he was given. We have all crossed that bridge.

The ideal world would be separate circuits.

Essentially what this means is that an MCB must not operate at 1.13 times its nominal rating, but must operate within the conventional time (1 hour) at 1.45 times its nominal rating.

Risteard81 · 22-10-2020 9:08am

JimToken wrote: »

DBs are type tested? and have an amp rating, for that reason I think you're not supposed to mix them

This is true in the north and Britain, but it should be remembered that there is a derogation under Annex Zb of BS EN 61439-3 there for a conditional rating of 16kA despite the breaking capacity of the protective devices. Therefore type testing becomes crucial otherwise the installer legally takes on the duties of the manufacturer of the assembly. So it's less of an issue elsewhere.

I would still advise sticking to the manufacturer's parts even though there is no derogation under I.S. EN 61439-3.

Lenar3556 · 22-10-2020 9:25am

JimToken wrote: »

DBs are type tested? and have an amp rating, for that reason I think you're not supposed to mix them

They are, and mixing components should be avoided as it it unlikely Hagar type tested another manufacturers components. There could be warranty, and liability issues in the event of a failure.

Hager would be a decent product for domestic. Somebody mentioned Schneider - This, ABB Eaton and Siemens would likely be higher end products particularly when you get into the larger stuff.

Lenar3556 · 22-10-2020 9:50am

Risteard81 wrote: »

This is true in the north and Britain, but it should be remembered that there is a derogation under Annex Zb of BS EN 61439-3 there for a conditional rating of 16kA despite the breaking capacity of the protective devices. Therefore type testing becomes crucial otherwise the installer legally takes on the duties of the manufacturer of the assembly. So it's less of an issue elsewhere.

I would still advise sticking to the manufacturer's parts even though there is no derogation under I.S. EN 61439-3.

I am not familiar with the standard you refer, but type testing is as big an issue in Ireland as it is elsewhere.

There was a case of a fire in the south of the country a number of years ago which started in a newly installed lighting board. The cause of ignition was identified to have been caused by heat generated by a significant quantity of contactors which were installed in the board. There were some other contributory factors.

The contactors were of a major manufacturer, but they denied responsibility purely on the basis that they were installed in an assembly which had not been tested for performance in terms of heat dissipation, ventilation etc. and had it been in one of their own assemblies there would have been no fire.

There was no dispute that the contactor coils were running hot, and the buildings insurer initiated a claim for damages against the manufacturers distributor in the circuit court - but they later withdrew it without settlement and the installers insurer entered into an arrangement with the buildings insurer to cover 80% of the claim.

Tuco88 · 22-10-2020 10:14am

Risteard81 wrote: »

Essentially what this means is that an MCB must not operate at 1.13 times its nominal rating, but must operate within the conventional time (1 hour) at 1.45 times its nominal rating.

Correct thats why I multiplied by the 1.45 and 1hr for less than 63Amps.

JimToken · 22-10-2020 10:54am

I would pick Hager too as the best brand over a long period of time

Tuco88 · 22-10-2020 10:58am

JimToken wrote: »

DBs are type tested? and have an amp rating, for that reason I think you're not supposed to mix them

Thats not fully true on components, I used to panel build for a few years. Various manufacturers many not make a particular component. Take ABB use weidmuller terminals in panels for motors (Con Adapters) you may see a different brand main switch or solid state relays from phenoix contact with ABB epuipmemt. Or when companies merge Merlin Gerin/Schnider.

But I agree, I wouldnt be for mixing equipment keep like for like as much as possible.

Id say poor workmanship is more the factor and lack of testing than mixing branded equipment. Ie the busbar issue.

Lenar3556 · 22-10-2020 11:22am

Tuco88 wrote: »

Thats not fully true on components, I used to panel build for a few years. Various manufacturers many not make a particular component. Take ABB use weidmuller terminals in panels for motors (Con Adapters) you may see a different brand main switch or solid state relays from phenoix contact with ABB epuipmemt. Or when companies merge Merlin Gerin/Schnider.

But I agree, I wouldnt be for mixing equipment keep like for like as much as possible.

Id say poor workmanship is more the factor and lack of testing than mixing branded equipment. Ie the busbar issue.

You might find that much of that has been type tested and certified by the panel manufacturer. For example Cubic and Elsteel have tested and certified their products with much of the ABB components.

JimToken · 22-10-2020 11:23am

Tuco88 wrote: »

Thats not fully true on components, I used to panel build for a few years. Various manufacturers many not make a particular component. Take ABB use weidmuller terminals in panels for motors (Con Adapters) you may see a different brand main switch or solid state relays from phenoix contact with ABB epuipmemt. Or when companies merge Merlin Gerin/Schnider.

But I agree, I wouldnt be for mixing equipment keep like for like as much as possible.

Id say poor workmanship is more the factor and lack of testing than mixing branded equipment. Ie the busbar issue.

Each new arrangement would have to be tested and certified , would it not

Each component in a board has its own set of ratings and capacities

Tuco88 · 22-10-2020 11:31am

JimToken wrote: »

Each new arrangement would have to be tested and certified , would it not

Each component in a board has its own set of ratings and capacities

Yes it does. Each panel or boad would be fully tested before a FAT. It was usually large multinational companies would actully spec spefic brands to use for such purpose for there own site standards.

I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with mixing equipment within a panel. Once tested etc...

JimToken · 22-10-2020 11:34am

Tuco88 wrote: »

Yes it does. Each panel or boad would be fully tested before a FAT. It was usually large multinational companies would actully spec spefic brands to use for such purpose for there own site standards.

I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with mixing equipment within a panel. Once tested etc...

That's where our wires are crossed

I'm saying that the installer is not allowed to mix them

Lenar3556 · 22-10-2020 11:40am

JimToken wrote: »

Each new arrangement would have to be tested and certified , would it not

Each component in a board has its own set of ratings and capacities

It would, but the type testing is a higher level compatibility test if you like, which would be undertaken in a laboratory or specialised test centre. It is to confirm that if installed in the manner specified by the manufacturer the assembly is safe and meets the relevant standards.

Quite different to the set of tests that would be undertaken by the panel builder or installing electrical contractor.

Lenar3556 · 22-10-2020 11:46am

Tuco88 wrote: »

Yes it does. Each panel or boad would be fully tested before a FAT. It was usually large multinational companies would actully spec spefic brands to use for such purpose for there own site standards.

I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with mixing equipment within a panel. Once tested etc...

And the ‘once tested’ becomes the key point. The level of testing is extensive, specialised and needs to be validated by the panel manufacturer - anything short of this creates a vulnerability in terms of identifying a clear throat to choke in the event of something going wrong.

The case I referred to earlier was an eye opener for me.

JimToken · 22-10-2020 11:53am

Lenar3556 wrote: »

It would, but the type testing is a higher level compatibility test if you like, which would be undertaken in a laboratory or specialised test centre. It is to confirm that if installed in the manner specified by the manufacturer the assembly is safe and meets the relevant standards.

Quite different to the set of tests that would be undertaken by the panel builder or installing electrical contractor.

Obviously the panel builder can mix components because he will be working to an approved specification in each case

The panel builder will be doing basic tests similar to an installer as in each case the design is already approved

JimToken · 22-10-2020 11:59am

Out of interest what tests is an assembler required to do before shipping?

IR testing

Phase Rotation

Polarity

Anything else

Lenar3556 · 22-10-2020 12:02pm

JimToken wrote: »

Obviously the panel builder can mix components because he will be working to an approved specification in each case

The panel builder will be doing basic tests similar to an installer as in each case the design is already approved

Yes, if that is the case - but it often isn’t and that is where somebody, be it a panel builder or electrical contractor can unwittingly take on additional responsibility for assuring compliance. For example if you decided to fit ABB RCBO’s in a Schneider manufactured LV panel.

I would be the first to say that the electrical risk arising may be negligible, but if it goes wrong due to equipment failure the question of who is liable becomes less clear than if you used a manufacturer approved solution in the first instance.

JimToken · 22-10-2020 12:16pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Yes, if that is the case - but it often isn’t and that is where somebody, be it a panel builder or electrical contractor can unwittingly take on additional responsibility for assuring compliance. For example if you decided to fit ABB RCBO’s in a Schneider manufactured LV panel.

I would be the first to say that the electrical risk arising may be negligible, but if it goes wrong due to equipment failure the question of who is liable becomes less clear than if you used a manufacturer approved solution in the first instance.

That's the whole point , they can't do it

Tuco88 · 22-10-2020 12:19pm

JimToken wrote: »

Out of interest what tests is an assembler required to do before shipping?

IR testing

Phase Rotation

Polarity

Anything else

We used to do current injection testing, then check for hot spots with thermal camera/I.R gun on power DBs. And hot and cold tests on overloads.Torque testing, its a joke how thats not pushed more here (RECI) so on. All the usual rcd tests/point to point/Insulation resistance etc... The phase rotation would have to be done on site also by the installer, supply might be incorrect.Thats what it was like 8 years ago for me anyway. The FAT test was the nervious day, fine tooth and comb job. You would be pulled on core makers or some factories had specific colour of bootlace ferrule to use. Light blue for I.S 0.75mm^2 not white, I'll never forget that one.

JimToken · 22-10-2020 12:27pm

Tuco88 wrote: »

We used to do current injection testing, then check for hot spots with thermal camera/I.R gun on power DBs. And hot and cold tests on overloads.Torque testing, its a joke how thats not pushed more here (RECI) so on. All the usual rcd tests/point to point/Insulation resistance etc... The phase rotation would have to be done on site also by the installer, supply might be incorrect.Thats what it was like 8 years ago for me anyway. The FAT test was the nervious day, fine tooth and comb job. You would be pulled on core makers or some factories had specific colour of bootlace ferrule to use. Light blue for I.S 0.75mm^2 not white, I'll never forget that one.

Good one on the current injecting and hotspot testing and the torque testing

I figured there would be a couple of additional tests specific to assembly

Was there any voltage withstand tests or am I confused on the terminology?

Tuco88 · 22-10-2020 12:35pm

Are we getting confused on made to order type panels ie a panel builders design or a manufactures made panel?

I wouldn't be trying to install a Hager MCB in a ABB smissline board for example. I don't think you can actually do that but definitely a no no.

But I certainly wouldn't see an issue with a din rail mounted row of lets say Schneider MCBs suppling ABB contractors installed in a rital enclosure. Once installed correctly and tested/signed off.

Tuco88 · 22-10-2020 1:01pm

JimToken wrote: »

Good one on the current injecting and hotspot testing and the torque testing

I figured there would be a couple of additional tests specific to assembly

Was there any voltage withstand tests or am I confused on the terminology?

Not that I can think of. If we installed under voltage devices they could be tested possibly if required I never was asked to carry it out anyway. I can't remember anything else, alot was verification too. Making sure you had the right spec component. That was one of the most important one, also the settings of protection devices overloads/timers you could casue mayhem if you didn't follow that correctly. Becasue the installer will just "turn it on" and kindly blame you for any damage caused.

We'll you would be provided with very specific design drawings from large companies anyway. And following standards to wire type/terminal type and size. Everything is checked at the FAT, you had to have your homework done before they arrived. Pull test on all connections, torque settings etc... One large design engineering company used to fly this chap from India to do the point to point checks alone. A hard job, say 10 remote I/O panels each a carbon copy of the other. To check each individual wire goes from A to B its a long week.

There would be a SAT test then too. Not to say it could pass the FAT and Fail the SAT.

Tuco88 · 22-10-2020 1:09pm

Just another note, some companies would have specific colour codes for various voltages that was really annoying at times. 12/24v AC/DC, 110v etc...
And maybe Red wire for interlock circuit's or going to a Pilz relay/SIL devices.

Anyway thats my rant over.

garo · 22-10-2020 2:53pm

Tuco88 wrote: »

If memory is right for the tripping curve its, 1.13 to 1.45 for mcbs. It should most definitely be operating at around 29Amps and beyond I would expect.

So you are right on the threshold. At least you know as the home owner, so you can work around it.

Risteard81 wrote: »

Essentially what this means is that an MCB must not operate at 1.13 times its nominal rating, but must operate within the conventional time (1 hour) at 1.45 times its nominal rating.

I assume the not is a typo?

Just read up the hager technical data sheet. Yes it is 1.13 and 1.45 for an hour. The theoretical max of 33A on that MCB is 1.65 times the rating so should trip in 200 seconds (eyeballing). I expect not to encounter that situation but I have asked the installer anyway. Ideally he'd move the cooker circuit to another MCB.

440Hertz wrote: »

Hager seems to be the gold standard in Ireland for those boards. I wouldn't go near using cheap equipment for a device that is absolutely fundamental to home safety from the point of view of fire risk mitigation and electric shock protection.

Your electrician should buy it, but there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't have a preferred brand.

Working on the distribution board is also registered electrical contractor only territory.

Of course the work was carried out by a RECI and he is the one who bought the equipment. He had a preference for Hager like the denizens of this board do though he wasn't as dismissive of Garo as some others here are. He also performed a polarity test and an earth fault loop impedance test on each circuit as well as the checking the times on the RCDs tripping.

Tuco88 · 22-10-2020 4:17pm

No he is correct, a 20 Amp MCB will draw 22.6Amps indefinitely. If you ave a ruler place it on 1.13 on the graph you can see it hits nothing on the curve above.

Anything between 1.13 and 1.45 is sorta no mans land.

garo · 22-10-2020 7:18pm

Right. I agree with you which is why I was confused by the not. A 20A MCB should operate indefinitely at 22.6.
Spoke to the sparks. He said it is not a safety issue as they are on separate circuits and the MCB is to protect the wires. He is willing to split itge cooker out to a separate MCB but not sure if that’s required.

JimToken · 25-10-2020 1:48pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

It would, but the type testing is a higher level compatibility test if you like, which would be undertaken in a laboratory or specialised test centre. It is to confirm that if installed in the manner specified by the manufacturer the assembly is safe and meets the relevant standards.

Quite different to the set of tests that would be undertaken by the panel builder or installing electrical contractor.

Yes the type testing is a different ball game to the assembler/installer testing

Have you any info on current injecting or torque testing

New Consumer Unit recommendations

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