School Shooting in Parkland, Florida

Christy42 · 15-02-2018 8:14pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Agreed. But does/can the problem have to be tackled by banning guns? Or can it perhaps be tackled by other means more effectively, if perhaps with less fanfare?

Is it only one child? Am I the only father to keep a firearm in the home for defensive purposes? And how about the various days where 17 children are not killed in one incident, but a firearm is used defensively?

Perhaps. However, they are not in the US, they don't have the US's societal problems leading to our own levels of criminal behaviour, and they don't already have some 300mil firearms in circulation which cannot be simply legislated into non-existence.

I would beg to differ. I have a good security system, with a sign posted on the outside that I have one. It has alarms on the entrances. It has internal motion sensors. It has a direct connection to a call center, which will get the police to my house in five minutes or less (We have a pretty responsive police force here). That's still five minutes I'm on my own. How much can happen in five minutes in a small house?

Someone suggested a large dog. Firstly, large dogs are expensive. Secondly, the wife is allergic, suitable dogs seem not really to exist. (Here's a list of hypoallergenic dog breeds. http://www.dogbreedslist.info/hypoallergenic-dog-breeds/#.WoXYxKinGUl Wife came with a yorkshire terrier). Thirdly, dogs are work and effort I don't want to put into it. A piece of metal which requires maintenance only every few months is far more sensible.

I am, and I am all for a sensible plan of action which reduces the chances of firearms injury at school. I have yet to see one proposed by our politicians which is both practicable and coherent, even before getting to the matter of whether or not I am permitted to personally own firearms. I believe the solution to be primarily sociological in the long term, which would help the kid's safety not just in school, but at the shopping mall, the cinema, coming home at night....

For example, should the first question be "Why does he have a gun?" or "Why does he think it would be a good idea to go kill a bunch of schoolkids?". Solving the latter question is probably going to be more beneficial than solving the former. Attempting to solve the former is simple in concept, but all but impossible in practice. Attempting to solve the latter is incredibly difficult in concept, but could be effective. Of course, the politicians go with the former.

I am pretty sure politicians are going to go with neither. They can't solve the second and would probably take many years of research. It should absolutely be done but I would prefer something that also works in the short term as well.

It still reads very close to do nothing that will affect me. I think Americans need to look at themselves as to why the first would be so tough to do. Every other first world country has done it or would not see as much an issue in doing it if it became such a problem.

And of course people should wonder why he has a gun. You wouldn't even trust him with a pint ffs.

Billy86 · 15-02-2018 8:19pm

pjohnson wrote: »

This is the only solution America ever accepts. MORE guns. That'll protect us.

Right after posting that I had someone from Idaho I used to know quite well a few years back but had not seen in a good while on FB put up "why not put 3 armed veterans in each school in the country" - pointed out that 98,000 schools x $40k salary per vet x 3 vets per school = $11.7bn per year. As well as that there was armed security at the school, yet even had they been able to be in that spot there would have likely just wound up with more dead due to the chaos if they shot back, and that putting money towards mental health services and not selling assault rifles to mentally ill people might be a better option.

Got an angry PM from them about guns, and they immediately me blocked the moment after they sent it. Just goes to show how much some people over there point blank refuse to accept the reality of the situation and as you said figure MORE guns is the only answer, ever.

LostinKildare · 15-02-2018 9:24pm

If you have a gun in your home, statistically it is many, many times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a criminal assault or homicide (including domestic abuse), or a suicide, than in self-defense.

I grew up in Virginia which was and I think still is very relaxed in its gun laws. People from other states on the East Coast traveled to Virginia to easily buy guns. My family was not a gun household, but I certainly knew people who had guns, and I never heard of anyone ever using one in self-defense. But I did know of the following incidents, which all involved friends or acquaintances:

a classmate shot himself in the foot in a hunting accident;
another classmate shot a friend of mine in a "hunting accident" (during an argument), nearly completely blowing off his lower leg with a shotgun;
a family friend was threatened with a gun by her very upset estranged husband (though thankfully not injured);
a toddler found an unsecured gun that had been brought into his home by a visitor, and accidentally shot and killed himself;
a neighbor's home was burglarized, and several guns stolen;
a close friend in a fit of despair took his mother's gun, kept in her bedside table "for protection," and killed himself, age 22.

My experience lines up with the statistics. All those things are much more likely to happen than for a person to use their gun to stop a crime.

jmayo · 15-02-2018 10:00pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Agreed. But does/can the problem have to be tackled by banning guns? Or can it perhaps be tackled by other means more effectively, if perhaps with less fanfare?

I think we all know that pandora's box is now very hard to close.
There are just so many guns in circulation and it is almost virtually impossible to get them out of circulation.

As a very clued actual liberal sounding guy working in a gun shop interviewed by RTE documentary last year stated,
"who are the ones that will go around and take the guns back?"
The local police won't because in lots of cases they are fellow gun owners and they live in the community and sherrifs may face reelection.
The FBI and ATF would face numerous Wacos and Ruby ridges every other day.
So who could do it.
There would have to be a widespread consensus from the gun owners to give up their weapons.
That aint going to happen.

The only chance for some controls is that proper background checks are put in place to prevent guns being bought by the wrong people and that gun show sales, on street gun trading without background verification is banned.
Of course the NRA, etc will see this as the slippery slope and stamp their feet.
To most of us it sounds eminently sensible that someone should undergo a background check before they are sold a firearm, and not just any old firearm either.
But to a lot of Americans it sound like heresy.

Britain brought in tighter controls after the likes of Hungerford and especially after Dunblane.
Australia brought in changes after Port Arthur.
Of course the NRA were sticking their noses in to try prevent Australia form bringing in gun controls.

Meanwhile the US keeps on shooting, and some dead kids are a small price to pay so that the 2nd Amendment is left as is, or as some people interpret it.

jmayo · 15-02-2018 10:01pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Right after posting that I had someone from Idaho I used to know quite well a few years back but had not seen in a good while on FB put up "why not put 3 armed veterans in each school in the country" - pointed out that 98,000 schools x $40k salary per vet x 3 vets per school = $11.7bn per year. As well as that there was armed security at the school, yet even had they been able to be in that spot there would have likely just wound up with more dead due to the chaos if they shot back, and that putting money towards mental health services and not selling assault rifles to mentally ill people might be a better option.

Got an angry PM from them about guns, and they immediately me blocked the moment after they sent it. Just goes to show how much some people over there point blank refuse to accept the reality of the situation and as you said figure MORE guns is the only answer, ever.

You do know that Idaho was where the Ruby Ridge siege took place?

Billy86 · 15-02-2018 10:10pm

I do indeed, it's about 1,000km from the part of the state she is from.

Billy86 · 15-02-2018 10:15pm

It also appears the murderer was a Trump supporter and white supremacist.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/nikolas-cruz-trained-with-florida-white-supremacist-group-leader-says

PARKLAND, Florida—Nikolas Cruz, the man accused of killing 17 people in a Florida high school, was a member of a “white separatist paramilitary proto-fascist organization,” the group told The Daily Beast.

Cruz, 19, is accused of opening fire inside Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. Prior to the shooting, he trained with the Republic of Florida, the group’s captain Jordan Jereb said (as first reported by the Anti-Defamation League). The RoF seeks to create a “white ethnostate” in Florida, according to its website, a view that Cruz supposedly shared.

“I know he knew full well he was joining a white separatist paramilitary proto-fascist organization,” Jereb said.

..

While no motive has been described by police, Jereb speculated that Cruz may have allegedly committed the massacre out of hatred for Jews or women.

“There’s a very real sense of feminism being a cancer. That could’ve played into what he did, but we have female members of RoF,” Jereb said, adding that “we’re not a big fan of Jews. I think there were a lot of Jews at the school that might have been messing with him.”

Chrongen · 15-02-2018 10:31pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Used as battering rams, getaway cars, used to transport illegal guns, people and drugs, there are a hell of a lot more cars used for crime than guns.

Oh bollocks. So is the fucking telephone.

Grayson · 15-02-2018 11:16pm

There have been 8 school shootings so far this year where someone has been killed or injured.

If I replaced school shooting with terrorist attacks, I'm pretty sure something would have been done by now.

Chrongen · 15-02-2018 11:18pm

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Government: Guns are banned! Give us all your guns!

People: Nah, it's mine, I'll just hide it.

Government: Don't kill people and go on mass shootings!

People: Nah, fùck the world and fùck existence and fùck being itself.

Banning guns will do jack lads.

It worked when the US government banned the private ownership of gold.

I might need a gun to stave off a bear or a thief but I will certainly need some gold to stave off STARVATION.

Americans gave up their gold like a kid at Lent.

They giveup their rights to privacy, they give up everything once they're told that to not do so makes you a hippy or a terrorist or an enemy of the state.

If you came out right now and wanted to disarm the American public all you would have to do is come up with some farce of a story like "We're just collecting them to store in a secure location with your SS number attached because there are moved afoot that ISIS has been robbing homes of AR-15s"

The Americans would just comply.

If you can get them to buy bin bags to save themselves from a Sarin attack you could sell them anything.

Wanderer78 · 15-02-2018 11:24pm

Chrongen wrote: »

Americans gave up their gold like a kid at Lent.

some currently buying it by the bucket load, apparently

vetinari · 16-02-2018 12:04am

Gun control would clearly help reduce school shootings, considering it's been effective in every other country in the world.
The sad fact is that there's not enough political will in the States to do this.
People have become immune to kids being shot at school. It's just part of daily life at this point.
People don't care.

Guns can have some use for hunting imo. The self defense argument is bollix though.
Guns make accidental deaths more likely and adds a lethal possibility to any altercation.
The United States is a first world country not war torn Syria.

Pepefrogok · 16-02-2018 12:27am

Billy86 wrote: »

It also appears the murderer was a Trump supporter and white supremacist.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/nikolas-cruz-trained-with-florida-white-supremacist-group-leader-says

Disgusting how people can try leverage an atrocity like this for political capital, even the BBC ran with this "white nationalist" theory until they had to add a disclaimer that no evidence existed, really low. Especially from people who insist that certain acts of terrorism should not be pre-judged, shame on you.

wakka12 · 16-02-2018 12:35am

How is he a 'white nationalist' he looks hispanic and has a spanish name so I doubt white nationalists accepted him

Christy42 · 16-02-2018 12:44am

wakka12 wrote: »

How is he a 'white nationalist' he looks hispanic and has a spanish name so I doubt white nationalists accepted him

http://time.com/5161203/republic-of-florida-nikolas-cruz-white-supremacist-militia/

What guy are you looking at? How many hispanics are pale gingers? From the same link you can see the white nationalists claiming him so they did accept him.

metaoblivia · 16-02-2018 12:50am

wakka12 wrote: »

How is he a 'white nationalist' he looks hispanic and has a spanish name so I doubt white nationalists accepted him

The jury seems to be out on the white nationalist ties, but white and Hispanic are not mutually exclusive. The Cuban community in South Florida in particular has a range of skin tones, ranging from almost exclusive European heritage to African heritage and everything in between. My own ethnic heritage is Irish and I often got mistaken for Cuban when I lived in South Florida all the time because of my black hair and dark eyes. My pale skin and freckles only suggested to them that I came from a wealthy Cuban family. And I knew several Cubans who had lighter features than I did - like the shooter who has green eyes.

AdamD · 16-02-2018 1:17am

If on the incredibly off chance somebody breaks into your house, just let them rob it? The idea that you need to go out and shoot them baffles me. Scare politics really is effective in the US.

Nobodys breaking into your house with the intention of killing you, in fact bringing your own gun into the scenario just increases that chance. The protection argument is utter nonsense.

muppetshow1451 · 16-02-2018 1:35am

pilly wrote: »

We're not talking about terror attacks here though are we?

Besides, I'd still rather take my chances against someone with a knife or hammer than a machine gun thanks.

Same principle,someone obsessed by killing other people dont care if its a firearm or a knife,and a machinegun they are illegal or needs a special permit.Its called a AR15.
But i didnt expect you to know the difference.

YFlyer · 16-02-2018 1:56am

Christy42 wrote: »

http://time.com/5161203/republic-of-florida-nikolas-cruz-white-supremacist-militia/

What guy are you looking at? How many hispanics are pale gingers? From the same link you can see the white nationalists claiming him so they did accept him.

Canelo is ginger.

markodaly · 16-02-2018 2:00am

Why is there more of these?

Chrongen · 16-02-2018 2:15am

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Here's a great idea America, vote in a democrat who will change all of the gun laws like say i dunno Obama or Clinton. Oh wait a minut....

And here comes Professor Emeritus BillyBobBS and legal scholar who thinks that an amendment to the constitution is contingent on the party affiliation of the Executive Branch.

Christy42 · 16-02-2018 2:15am

YFlyer wrote: »

Canelo is ginger.

So he is, I was off there. I still would not say the man looks Hispanic would you?
I am sure it is possible he is Hispanic but the claim was made that he looks it. Unless there is further evidence of his ethnicity I feel like more is needed for that claim.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-02-2018 2:26am

The Pope is a white hispanic. I mean there’s been plenty of immigration of Europeans to south and Central America. There are many races there although in Central America they are fairly mixed.

He could of course be of fully Spanish descent.

The Spanish immigrants to the US are considered white but their descendents in the southern America’s are considered Hispanic if they migrate to the US.

Other things matter too. Ideology. Ted Cruz is probably considered white as he is a conservative.

(In general the term Hispanic is entirely useless).

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-02-2018 2:33am

He looks Spanish - Eastern European to me.

ThinkProgress · 16-02-2018 2:56am

Grayson wrote: »

There have been 8 school shootings so far this year where someone has been killed or injured.

If I replaced school shooting with terrorist attacks, I'm pretty sure something would have been done by now.

Like what, exactly?

If someone wakes up tomorrow morning, and decides they want to kill a load of people... what can you realistically do about? It's already arguably too late at that point....

This is why focusing solely on the gun, as the primary root of the problem, is a very unintelligent approach. It's just a dumb reactionary response.

Would you focus solely on the explosives used by suicide bombers, when attempting to tackle those particular terrorists? Of course not... that would be ridiculous. But pick another killing tool, like the gun, and the narrative completely changes! (logic gets thrown out the window by many people)

Chrongen · 16-02-2018 2:59am

pilly wrote: »

I think the fact that you think prisoners in jail don't see TV is even more stupid? :eek:

And since this episode will be off the news in maybe another 24 hours while the shooter is still in a cell, do you honestly think his name will even be a mention when he finally gets access to a TV?

Yeah?

Chrongen · 16-02-2018 3:36am

And now it's all forgotten.

Roll on next massacre.

KKkitty · 16-02-2018 3:42am

We all know what needs to happen but it won't happen in reality. The 2nd amendment is something that a lot of Americans hold dear like their guns. Umpteen school shootings will only rile the nutjobs that think the right to bear arms is the best for everyone. It's not and never has been. The only people in my opinion who should have guns are the police or Gardaí depending on your country. We as normal citizens shouldn't have knives, guns or anything that could be used as a weapon at our disposal in a public place.

JenovaProject · 16-02-2018 3:43am

Billy86 wrote: »

It also appears the murderer was a Trump supporter and white supremacist.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/nikolas-cruz-trained-with-florida-white-supremacist-group-leader-says

Petty political point scoring.
Pretty scummy behaviour.
RIP to those poor kids.

everlast75 · 16-02-2018 8:04am

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Like what, exactly?

If someone wakes up tomorrow morning, and decides they want to kill a load of people... what can you realistically do about? It's already arguably too late at that point....

This is why focusing solely on the gun, as the primary root of the problem, is a very unintelligent approach. It's just a dumb reactionary response.

Would you focus solely on the explosives used by suicide bombers, when attempting to tackle those particular terrorists? Of course not... that would be ridiculous. But pick another killing tool, like the gun, and the narrative completely changes! (logic gets thrown out the window by many people)

This is where the pro gun lobby fails in their argument.

"Taking away the gun is not THE solution".

Maybe not - but it's a €#*¥ing start.

Work on mental health too - they aren't mutually exclusive.

Until politicians are exposed for the hypocrites that they are, with their "thoughts and prayers" whilst being bought by the NRA with their contributions to their campaigns, and voted out - nothing will happen

School Shooting in Parkland, Florida

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