Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

First Luas, Now the Sunday Business Post Goes to War on the Metro

Options
24

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    jdivision
    Registered Users Posts: 4,260 ✭✭✭jdivision


    carrotcake wrote:
    the eve of the luas launch was a tuesday. i think you mean the evening herald, which i remember had that article the day before launch
    I think that's correct too. Strange how Transport21 Fan went to ground as soon as I asked him how he knew the story was bogus and when he realised that most people disagreed with his original post and that he couldn't find favour.


  • Options
    #33
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    jdivision wrote:
    I think that's correct too. Strange how Transport21 Fan went to ground as soon as I asked him how he knew the story was bogus and when he realised that most people disagreed with his original post and that he couldn't find favour.

    Hold on a second. I was on the Western Rail Corridor thread, being abused there.

    Now were was I...On the eve of the opening of the Luas Green line the Sunday before the SB Post had an article about how an unnamed source claimed that the Luas was the worst train journey they have ever taken and it was published in quotations. This is appalling journalism. When you have quotations you give a source, otherwise it is not a news story it is a sensationalist editorial. Did I clip the article out and keep it in my file so one day I could scan it in for this thread. Sadly no, but this is what I recal and I think I have fairly good memory.

    The same article IIRC also carried a story about Minister Mary Coughlan on some tram promo for the elderly, and how the tram was reported as breaking down. This was denied later by the RPA at the opening ceremony of the Green Line. I seem to recall an RPA official making a comment about it along the lines of "some papers will print anything" or the like. From what that implied the breakdown with Mary Coughlan story was fictional.

    Even so, all during during the construction of the Luas the SB Post was one of the the most anti-Luas media. They were as bad as the Indo. So I have no doubt that they will go after the Metro with the same vitriol.

    By "eve" of the Luas crash - I meant just before it. Sorry I assumed that people would have understood that I meant Sunday as it being a sunday paper. But the article was real. It used to be on an old P11 page contained in article about how quality commuter rail investments pays for itself on many levels and the SB Post article was used to demonstrate how the business community and media in Ireland cannot see the bigger picture.

    So I make no apology for the title of this thread as the SB Post has the classic Oirsh "all major infrastrutrure is bad!" mentality. But for some reason they are fairly pro-CIE which I assume is because the SB Post do not actually use public transport and have no idea how terrible CIE is and how excellent the Luas is by comparision. Bring a user of public transport and being annoyed at the roads being dug it to make way for it is a concept that most journalists in Ireland not just the SB Post simply do not understand. They are not public transport users themselves, so they see no real advantage to something like Luas.

    There is also an assumption on this thread from some querters that I am anti-Luas. [?!?!?] I am perhaps the most pro Luas person in Ireland. I am major fan of tha RPA as they build fantastic, sucessful modern, state-of-the-art rail transit systems which CIE simply are not capable of doing.

    I think the Luas is the greatest public transport infrastruture ever built in this country as I also believe that the Metro will be even better and that when the DART is extended it'll still be useless cos' half the trains won't work and there'll be constant industrial unrest and poor performance by the CIE unions.

    The RPA and Luas was the light at the end of the tunnel after 60 years of CIE strikes and hanging flower baskets being passed off as rail transport and I am in favour of the RPA being made the state's national railway infrastructure company and the complete abolition of CIE.


  • Options
    #34
    Red Alert
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭Red Alert


    no i think the LUAS should be state run. there are claims of endemic bullying and profiteering in connex if you look around the internet specifically relating to the LUAS.

    when the bus ticket machine's broken CIE's procedure is that nobody has to pay fares until the bus is replaced with another one. connex make people queue up and buy tickets from an inspector if the machines fail.

    however CIE should be made get its house in order. no wasteful buying of things like Buses to replace ones just 12 years old, no putting commuter trains on intercity routes and no hanging baskets!


  • Options
    #35
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Red Alert wrote:
    when the bus ticket machine's broken CIE's procedure is that nobody has to pay fares until the bus is replaced with another one. connex make people queue up and buy tickets from an inspector if the machines fail.

    Maybe it's time CIE was dragged into the world of Real Business? Perhaps if they did a Connex do they might have a few more quid? Getting a free bus is great but it should not happen simply because a ticket machine is stuffed up.

    MrP


  • Options
    #36
    ad hoc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭ad hoc


    Please note that this article also reports of unnamed sources who report of 'thought police' at An Post, aka hear-say. All in all, its a quality article.


    http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/06/27/story318347962.asp

    'Carer' airbrushed from Luas stamp

    Sunday, June 27, 2004

    By Sean Mac Carthaigh

    An Post has air-brushed a carer assisting a wheelchair bound passenger onto a Luas train from the face of a stamp to be unveiled tomorrow.The 48 cent stamp commemorating the Luas tram system is due to be launched tomorrow by the Minister for Transport Seamus Brennan.

    The original drawing showed an able-bodied carer assisting the wheelchair- bound passenger, but in the version to be unveiled tomorrow, the carer has been airbrushed away.

    Sources said ``thought police'' at An Post insisted it was politically incorrect to show someone assisting another passenger in a wheelchair because it implied ``dependence'' on the part of the disabled person.

    The Sandyford to St Stephen's Green Luas line is due to open to the public on Wednesday, but sources said there were still major problems with the system.

    ``It's a disaster. It's the worst, most jolting trip I've ever made on a train,'' said one recent traveller.

    Political sources said Mary Coughlan, the minister for social and family affairs recently took a group of five senior citizens for a preview ride on the Luas. The first tram broke down, forcing them to get out and wait for a replacement.

    The second tram also broke down.

    The party then abandoned the Luas completely and piled into the minister's car.

    ``Serious safety questions remain,'' one source said.

    ``Also, the stations haven't been finished.''

    Dozens of desk-bound staff at the Railway Procurement Agency have been ordered to don T-shirts and man information counters from 7am to 7pm at Luas stations next week.

    Such a task would normally fall to Connex, the company being paid by the state to operate the Luas.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    aliveandkicking
    Registered Users Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    Red Alert wrote:
    no i think the LUAS should be state run. there are claims of endemic bullying and profiteering in connex if you look around the internet specifically relating to the LUAS.

    when the bus ticket machine's broken CIE's procedure is that nobody has to pay fares until the bus is replaced with another one. connex make people queue up and buy tickets from an inspector if the machines fail.

    however CIE should be made get its house in order. no wasteful buying of things like Buses to replace ones just 12 years old, no putting commuter trains on intercity routes and no hanging baskets!

    Do you actually use public transport?

    How any sane person would want the Luas to become state run is beyond me. I can just imagine what the Luas would be like if it was handed over to CIE. The display's at the stop would show 3 minutes but no tram would show up for 10 minutes, the drivers would periodically stop to have a chat with other drivers as their trams pass each other and when the tram reaches Heuston the driver gets out because it's his break but there is no other driver there to replace him so the tram doesn't move for 15 minutes. Don't forget also there would be a stress strike when the red line trams are lengthened to 40 metres, and you can forget any kind of service on public holidays or late at night.

    Frankly I don't care how Connex treats their staff or how much profit they are making. I am looking at this from someone who uses the Luas twice a day every day, and I think the service Connex provide to me the passenger is fantastic and way beyond anything Dublin Bus or Iarnrod Eireann ever have provided.

    Oh dear I just realised I sound like T21 fan. I do hope Ocathais doesn't think we are the same person :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #38
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    That's the article! See, I wsn't spoofing, in fact I was being kind to the SB Post when you see just how bizzare the actual article is. There are more "unnamed sources" mentioned in that few paragraphs than in a X-Files DVD box set set.

    That Sunday Business Post rubbish make the Sunday World read like The Harvard Review.


  • Options
    #39
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    spacetweek wrote:
    It's true that building Metro West + North as initially separate like this will mean they have to build 2 separate depots.
    Probably not actually. The metro is gonna be metro do Porto in style meaning it should be lowfloor and the trains will be more like super trams. These trams will ba able to use the Red Cow as they'll have access to the line at Belgard. There may be a method to the RPA's madness somewhere. I said quite some time ago that I'd like a snelltram/lite metro to allow the thing to get all the way to the Square and Citywest with no changes from (hopefully) Swords. MetroWest has serious potential, especially given the thousands of acres of undeveloped land that can go high density.


  • Options
    #40
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MrPudding wrote:
    I read you post yesterday so when I got on it I paid particualar attention to the state of the tram and I have to say it was in much better shape than I expected. No sign of flimsyness or falling apart.P

    When he said "Its cheap and flimsy and is falling apart after 18 months", I'd guess he's talking about the tracks not the trams.
    ad hoc wrote:
    Please note that this article also reports of unnamed sources who report of 'thought police' at An Post, aka hear-say.

    And you know they didn’t have a reliably inside source, how?
    Transport21 Fan wrote:
    That's the article! See, I wsn't spoofing, in fact I was being kind to the SB Post when you see just how bizzare the actual article is. There are more "unnamed sources" mentioned in that few paragraphs than in a X-Files DVD box set set.

    That Sunday Business Post rubbish make the Sunday World read like The Harvard Review.

    What exactly is your problem with the use of "unnamed sources"?


  • Options
    #41
    aliveandkicking
    Registered Users Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    monument wrote:
    What exactly is your problem with the use of "unnamed sources"?

    The problem is when newspapers use "unnamed sources" to spread downright lies to peddle an agenda like The SBP did with the Luas.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Any chance on expanding on "downright lies" and the Post's "agenda"?


  • Options
    #43
    aliveandkicking
    Registered Users Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    monument wrote:
    Any chance on expanding on "downright lies" and the Post's "agenda"?

    Anyone who read the post during the construction phase of the Luas could tell you of the paper's anti-Luas agenda.

    Downright Lies:
    but sources said there were still major problems with the system.

    ``It's a disaster. It's the worst, most jolting trip I've ever made on a train,'' said one recent traveller.

    Political sources said Mary Coughlan, the minister for social and family affairs recently took a group of five senior citizens for a preview ride on the Luas. The first tram broke down, forcing them to get out and wait for a replacement.

    The second tram also broke down.

    The party then abandoned the Luas completely and piled into the minister's car.

    ``Serious safety questions remain,'' one source said.

    ``Also, the stations haven't been finished.''


  • Options
    #44
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    aliveandkicking wrote:
    Anyone who read the post during the construction phase of the Luas could tell you of the paper's anti-Luas agenda.

    Downright Lies:

    I was, I must have missed the anti-Luas agenda. Would this "anti-Luas agenda" be something the the Irish media's current anti-Port Tunnel? Like say, would it actualy be an anti-mess ever major project up agenda?
    but sources said there were still major problems with the system.

    Can you prove sources did not say such?
    ``It's a disaster. It's the worst, most jolting trip I've ever made on a train,'' said one recent traveller.

    Can you prove "one recent traveller" at the time did not say such?
    Political sources said Mary Coughlan, the minister for social and family affairs recently took a group of five senior citizens for a preview ride on the Luas. The first tram broke down, forcing them to get out and wait for a replacement.

    The second tram also broke down.

    The party then abandoned the Luas completely and piled into the minister's car.

    This never happened?
    ``Serious safety questions remain,'' one source said.

    Can you prove one source did not say such?
    ``Also, the stations haven't been finished.''

    Were all stations 100% finished at the time of that person's trip?


  • Options
    #45
    John_C
    Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭John_C


    monument wrote:
    Can you prove one source did not say such?
    But one person saying something is not newsworthy. A person reading this article could have come away with the impression that the Luas is jolty, which it is certainly not. Quoting an unnamed source who is saying something which is almost certainly not true is poor journalism.
    monument wrote:
    Were all stations 100% finished at the time of that person's trip?
    That would only be relevant if the statins were supposed to be finished at the time. The person riding the tram knew that the system wasn't finished yet so shouldn't have been surprised to see people finishing stuff off.


  • Options
    #46
    Propellerhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 394 ✭✭Propellerhead


    monument wrote:
    I was, I must have missed the anti-Luas agenda. Would this "anti-Luas agenda" be something the the Irish media's current anti-Port Tunnel? Like say, would it actualy be an anti-mess ever major project up agenda?



    Can you prove sources did not say such?



    Can you prove "one recent traveller" at the time did not say such?



    This never happened?



    Can you prove one source did not say such?



    Were all stations 100% finished at the time of that person's trip?



    Anonymous sources are not worth a damn. It is the tactic of a bully to say "people have said" when attempting to assassinate someone's character.

    If it smells like bull and looks like bull then it truly is bull.


  • Options
    #47
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    John_C wrote:
    But one person saying something is not newsworthy. A person reading this article could have come away with the impression that the Luas is jolty, which it is certainly not.

    That’s rather strange. But ok anyway. So, will you or I send the memo around the news agencies saying they can’t report what one person says, no matter who or how reliably the source may be.
    John_C wrote:
    Quoting an unnamed source who is saying something which is almost certainly not true is poor journalism.

    Please, quote the part of the article that is “certainly not true”.

    John_C wrote:
    That would only be relevant if the statins were supposed to be finished at the time. The person riding the tram knew that the system wasn't finished yet so shouldn't have been surprised to see people finishing stuff off.

    It’s relevant on this message board because someone accused the journalist of “Downright Lies”.


    If it’s ok to use as an extra bit if information in an article published a few days before the opining of the Green Line is subjective. But I’d say it fine, it was wildly reported at the time there was a bit of a rush on the job at the last minute (not implying any lack of quality with my use of words).

    Propellerhead wrote:
    Anonymous sources are not worth a damn. It is the tactic of a bully to say "people have said" when attempting to assassinate someone's character.

    If it smells like bull and looks like bull then it truly is bull.

    In general, anonymous sources are at worse a ‘necessary evil’.

    It’s been accepted that the public can get fed up of too many “one source” this and “sources” that, it’s often necessary.

    One thing I’d agree with is at least identifying what area the source is in. Using “Political sources” in the article at least suggests someone close to Coughlan or her department. And the “Sources” on the stamp issue look to be somehow connected to An Post, and even that’s ok.

    I have a problem when it comes to 1) “``It's a disaster. It's the worst, most jolting trip I've ever made on a train,'' said one recent traveller”, 2) “``Serious safety questions remain,'' one source said”, and 3) ``Also, the stations haven't been finished”. Somewhat elaborating on who these are or what their area is would be a great help. However, it is still out of order to be labelling it all as “Downright Lies”.


  • Options
    #48
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    monument wrote:
    In general, anonymous sources are at worse a ‘necessary evil’.

    *shudder* - reading this really gives me the creeps...

    Stalin-era CCCP.


  • Options
    #49
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Transport21 Fan wrote:
    Stalin-era CCCP.

    What they actually had some sort of 'free' press back then? ;)

    I have questioned some of the uses here. If I was a news editor, I’d be uncomfortable about almost any use, but as I said it’s out of order to be labelling the article as “Downright Lies”.


  • Options
    #50
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    "one recent traveller" is a pretty worthless source. The may have asked 100 travellers and picked the only negative comment they got.

    "sources" says nothing. It's code for "nobody important but they said something printable". "reliable sources" "sources close to the minister" etc. have merit.

    The report was very weak and negative but that's as much criticism as I'd give it.


  • Options
    #51
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    monument wrote:
    but as I said it’s out of order to be labelling the article as “Downright Lies”.

    unless you have a named source after the quotations, it is downright lies - simple as that. There is no grey area. It either is, or isn't the truth.

    This pathetic Sunday Business Post "report" printed above is delusional muck and propaganda masked as journalism and is an abomination of free speech and expression which we in the West have worked so hard for in the last 200 years.

    The Sunday Business Post has worked hard to define itself as a Anti-Luas/Metro/RPA rag and until the name and credentials of the "source" is given, then it is only natural to assume that we are dealing with anti public transport excrement peddler posing as objective reporting.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    Transport21 Fan wrote:
    unless you have a named source after the quotations, it is downright lies - simple as that. There is no grey area. It either is, or isn't the truth.

    I challenge you to find one reputable journalist on the face of the planet to agree with you on that. Journalists have gone to prison and worse to protect sources. :(

    I think you're getting a bit over-emotional about Luas.

    I also find your objection to the article astonishing considering the abuse you dish out at me (as a CIE employee).


  • Options
    #53
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    BendiBus wrote:
    I also find your objection to the article astonishing considering the abuse you dish out at me (as a CIE employee).

    Nice try, but look at the entire Irish commuting public and ask them their opinion of CIE union employees.

    Don't just take my word for it.


  • Options
    #54
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    You're going to get back to us on this...

    I challenge you to find one reputable journalist on the face of the planet to agree with you on that. Journalists have gone to prison and worse to protect sources.

    ...right?


  • Options
    #55
    John_C
    Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭John_C


    monument wrote:
    That’s rather strange. But ok anyway. So, will you or I send the memo around the news agencies saying they can’t report what one person says, no matter who or how reliably the source may be.
    No, I think that would be an over reaction to something you read on the internet. Ironically, you would yourself be depending on an anonomus source.

    It would be nice though if journalists were to use more critical judgement in printing things like this. If most people getting off the tram reported it as jolty, then the journalist could say so and give an example quote. A single quote by a single person carries very little weight.
    monument wrote:
    Please, quote the part of the article that is “certainly not true”.
    For the record I said 'almost certainly not true' which has a different meaning.

    I was referring to the report that the luas was the most jolty train that this person had ever been on. I've been on the luas myself and found it not at all jolty. That quote could only be true if this source had only ever been on super smooth trains in some foreign country.


  • Options
    #56
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    Transport21 Fan wrote:
    Nice try, but look at the entire Irish commuting public and ask them their opinion of CIE union employees.

    Don't just take my word for it.

    I'm talking about abuse, not criticism. Some of the criticism CIE gets is fair. Speaking as a daily user of the citys buses (I know I'm not impartial, but who on here is??) I can't remember the last time I was inconvenienced by any union actions. And anyway, I'm a member of an "association", not a union.

    And I don't take your word for anything!

    Here's a link to a recent thread about CIÉ service. Just for the sake of balance. Bear in mind these are the comments of regular train users, not spotters, enthusiasts or self-appointed experts. Now I don't claim we do everything right but it needs to be pointed out that we do have some happy customers.


  • Options
    #57
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    You guys should love this: Someone at indymedia did an experiment on yellow journalism and the Luas.

    The results were staggering: See here


  • Options
    #58
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    SeanW wrote:
    On Sunday the 9th of January 2005, The Star Sunday printed a story, which read, ‘Claims Luas is Drugs Ferry’, (Hynes, F. P.12). This was my story. When not directly quoting me, I was paraphrased. Almost the entire content of my false Hotmail was there in print. I checked the account and found a reply from the Star’s News Editor requesting I contact Ms. Hynes. This was not an over eager journalist, but an entire chain of command prematurely printing a story relating to a fictional criminal matter. . . .

    Incredible really. According to Bendibus, this is real journalism which must be respected and encouraged. Although, I guess in eyes of the readership of Liberty it would be quality reporting.

    There has still be no confirmation of the source in the Sunday Tribune about how the blood in blood banks is being destroyed by Luas.

    My favourite anti-Luas story is still the one the Sunday Business Post which claimed that Luas had put Bewleys Cafe's out of business even though not one Bewley's branch is even close to a Luas line.

    What next? Princess Diana and Dodi were in a Luas in Paris and the RPA were in on it with the Saxe-Gothe's to snuff them both out, or if you zoom in on the Grassy Knoll photos in Dallas you can see the outline of a Luas tram putting a high power rifle back into a case right after Kennedy's head exploded...


  • Options
    #59
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    Transport21 Fan wrote:
    Incredible really. According to Bendibus, this is real journalism which must be respected and encouraged. Although, I guess in eyes of the readership of Liberty it would be quality reporting.

    Don't be so ridiculous. Whatever about this story, do you understand the importance of reputable journalists protecting their sources?

    And I clearly stated the report in question was very weak.


  • Options
    #60
    Gegerty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Gegerty


    MrPudding wrote:
    you post appears to be a steaming pile of sh1t.

    Totally unnecessary :mad:

    MrPudding wrote:
    It was busy but not uncomfortably crowded. They were running every 5 minutes and there were no real queues on the platforms.

    You are obviously not a regular LUAS commuter. Obviously some days it is grand, most mornings and evenings its sardines and alot of people are lucky to even get on.
    MrPudding wrote:
    No sign of flimsyness or falling apart.

    The tram is flimsy as in cheap material. Falling apart: I was referring to the tracks.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Gegerty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Gegerty


    spacetweek wrote:
    I have never once had to stand on the Green line.

    LOL :D Presumably you get on at stillorgan or sandyford? Take a look around you next time you're sitting comfortably in your seat and tell me the people cammed on are having a state of the art pleasurable journey.

    Were you using it during the recent cold spell? There were 3 technical faults on 3 different days. Nothing to do with frost of course :rolleyes:

    The LUAS is a huge success but lets not get carried away and lets not forget how much we paid for it. I for one am grateful to have it, its regualr and gets me in to work.


Advertisement