How old is too old to return to study GAMSAT and Grad Med ?

milhous · 14-01-2019 10:36pm

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Honestly, you made the right choice. Medicine is just a job, with a sh1t salary and horrible work life balance. You lose the best years of your life working for a company that knifes you in the back at every chance they can. Medicine in this country is dead. It's emigration or leave clinical medicine for most people. Our system is propped up by doctors from 3rd world countries but even they are starting to fight back.

In fairness my wife was smarter and went straight to medicine from school, training was tough (hours/jobs/ and as you mentioned all the stuff that docs generally ought not to be doing, but it never seemed to bother her, just another job to be done whilst you haven't slept in two days ) but pretty amazing.
Gradmed at my age with my commitments and current salary is a no go. Medicine in ireland still has great opportunities and if one can travel even better. If I could go back in time, yes. Now.. no.

Celestial12 · 22-01-2019 2:03pm

APower79 wrote: »

Well done you! I’m 39 with young kids and would really love to do it. Am I crazy though?! I think those around me would say I am. But I think I will regret it if I don’t try

No you're not crazy to try.

I don't think there's a right answer to this question, and it varies from person to person. What matters is whether or not you think you're too old, because it's you who's going to be putting in the work and making the sacrifices. If you got into GEM this year, you'd have your degree and intern year finished by the age of 45. You'd then have 20+ years working as a doctor. That may not be as long as other people, but there's still plenty of time for you to be a doctor.

TallGlass · 22-01-2019 2:29pm

Interesting thread. Few questions too.

I have considered it however. On paper I am an idiot. LC is a disaster area, 230/240 points, no degree or college. However in IT work and on decent pay.

But like someone said, I would rather a job with more satisfaction and helping people so to speak.

However, fitting in an entire LC repeat to aim for 600 odd points is a mental challenge, I would pick up on the Biology, Chem, Phys and Maths in about a very and more than likely come in with good results at HL. However, English, Irish and another language is just unworkable (maybe not English).

Are there other options for me to consider here?

Also, just out of interest, if you went the LC route, does the state 'pay' for your training and you pay the college fees or are you saddled up to 100k debt also?

I'm 28 now, so if I wrapped this up in 5 years or made headway on it and was settled in a role at 35 I could make progress and have a nice enjoyable career until my 70's that I would (hopefully)enjoy.

My problem at present is my paperwork, is LC route the only option here without a degree?

I wonder sometimes, is it a case of the grass is always greener on the other-side? I spent a month in hospital previously (with a catheter from a few places!), so I seen how hard everyone works. It's been on my mind a few years now and I have tried LC work, but get overwhelmed with the amount of content to cover

Recap · 23-01-2019 1:39am

TallGlass wrote: »

Interesting thread. Few questions too.

I have considered it however. On paper I am an idiot. LC is a disaster area, 230/240 points, no degree or college. However in IT work and on decent pay.

But like someone said, I would rather a job with more satisfaction and helping people so to speak.

However, fitting in an entire LC repeat to aim for 600 odd points is a mental challenge, I would pick up on the Biology, Chem, Phys and Maths in about a very and more than likely come in with good results at HL. However, English, Irish and another language is just unworkable (maybe not English).

Are there other options for me to consider here?

Also, just out of interest, if you went the LC route, does the state 'pay' for your training and you pay the college fees or are you saddled up to 100k debt also?

I'm 28 now, so if I wrapped this up in 5 years or made headway on it and was settled in a role at 35 I could make progress and have a nice enjoyable career until my 70's that I would (hopefully)enjoy.

My problem at present is my paperwork, is LC route the only option here without a degree?

I wonder sometimes, is it a case of the grass is always greener on the other-side? I spent a month in hospital previously (with a catheter from a few places!), so I seen how hard everyone works. It's been on my mind a few years now and I have tried LC work, but get overwhelmed with the amount of content to cover

28 is very young indeed. Please don't listen to people telling you that you're too old or that life will be tougher than if you were younger. Medicine is tough and the sacrifices you make are unlike any you make in the majority of other careers. You will work A LOT and medical school requires a lot of focus and discipline. You can have a life outside of academics but in order to do well, you need to work a lot.

The life of a doctor isn't easy either: the healthcare systems across Europe are ridden with bureaucracy and underfunding and as a result you'll be doing more than you should be for little financial reward. But you know what? If despite all this, you still know that working in medicine is for you, then do it. I personally know the sacrifices I'm making and I don't regret it one minute. Medicine has been the most satisfying thing I have done to date. I work hard and challenge myself but the personal rewards outweigh anything I ever felt in my last career.

Recap · 23-01-2019 1:42am

APower79 wrote: »

Well done you! I’m 39 with young kids and would really love to do it. Am I crazy though?! I think those around me would say I am. But I think I will regret it if I don’t try

No, it's not crazy. I know a girl who went into medicine (6-year course) at 39 and is now excelling. She's happier than she ever was and wouldn't change it for anything. She left a VERY well paying job to do medicine as well. Just be sure you know what medicine entails and what working for a national health service means in terms of salary, pressure, etc...

brendanwalsh · 24-01-2019 7:19pm

Recap wrote: »

No, it's not crazy. I know a girl who went into medicine (6-year course) at 39 and is now excelling. She's happier than she ever was and wouldn't change it for anything. She left a VERY well paying job to do medicine as well. Just be sure you know what medicine entails and what working for a national health service means in terms of salary, pressure, etc...

Is it fair to get the government to fund you to train until you are 50 and then only provide 15 to 17 years of benefit back to the country before retiring?
I'd argue the states coffers would get more value training a person in their 20s.

Recap · 24-01-2019 11:15pm

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Is it fair to get the government to fund you to train until you are 50 and then only provide 15 to 17 years of benefit back to the country before retiring?

One could use the very same logic and suggest that it's not fair to train a doctor until he or she is 30 and then for said doctor to move to Australia.

brendanwalsh wrote: »

I'd argue the states coffers would get more value training a person in their 20s.

Again, the value is lost if the person leaves Ireland (which multiple reports are suggesting is the case). Fixing a shortage is to find multiple options, including incentivising older doctors who have more of a reason to stick around (mortgage, spouse, etc...)

Health policy should not be based on logic or what we 'feel' makes the most sense. Statistics and reason are far better tools.

TallGlass · 25-01-2019 12:03am

Has anyone any ideas on pathways into medicine? Bad LC, No degree and in different field (IT). Is it stricly LC only?

milhous · 25-01-2019 12:05am

TallGlass wrote: »

Has anyone any ideas on pathways into medicine? Bad LC, No degree and in different field (IT). Is it stricly LC only?

Need LC and hpat or level 8 degree and gamsat

TallGlass · 25-01-2019 12:17am

milhous wrote: »

Need LC and hpat or level 8 degree and gamsat

Is it any level 8 degree? Is there any difference doing one route over the other. The LC stuff, I am just really struggling with Irish for starters, haven't even looked at another EU language, English is a mountain too but achievable.

milhous · 25-01-2019 12:27am

TallGlass wrote: »

Is it any level 8 degree? Is there any difference doing one route over the other. The LC stuff, I am just really struggling with Irish for starters, haven't even looked at another EU language, English is a mountain too but achievable.

Yeah any lvl 8 as long as you pass the gamsat. I Dont know older ppl who went back and repeated LC.
I know of a lot of ppl who went for lvl 8 and then on to medicine with gamsat, I did med chem so a gd few went on, with some that was always the plan.

I know most of the sciences are 4 years for a lvl 8 but I'm almost sure some business courses are 3years. Worth looking into.
Only problem is doing the lvl 8 will be subsidised but furthering onto medicine it will be 15k/year (that ballpark in Ireland anyway). If you factor in loss of what income you're on now, plus atleast 7 (3 for degree and 4 for medicne) years living expenses and college fees.. it adds up.. I'd say it's doable though especially if you have access to credit/have savings and work parttime/over summers. That's also assuming there's no fails and you hit the gamsat points when you need for that year.

I'd say it would be some.rollercoaster

TallGlass · 25-01-2019 12:39am

Some rollercoaster! LC route is hard but the positives if maybe less time and fees be less?

Level 8, hard again, structured and I will have a degree, longer time and then fees loss of earnings, unless I pick something up part time?

With a level 8, do I bypass so to speak the educational requirements like Irish. HL Bio Chem etc..

I don't want anyone to think I am trying to skip, but if it's something I want to do then time is against me here.

milhous · 25-01-2019 12:50am

TallGlass wrote: »

Some rollercoaster! LC route is hard but the positives if maybe less time and fees be less?

Level 8, hard again, structured and I will have a degree, longer time and then fees loss of earnings, unless I pick something up part time?

With a level 8, do I bypass so to speak the educational requirements like Irish. HL Bio Chem etc..

I don't want anyone to think I am trying to skip, but if it's something I want to do then time is against me here.

I'd look at the most financially viable option and then read around requirements for each college. Also don't rule out other eu countries, a lot of universities teach through english on the continent and are cheaper to live there and fees maybe cheaper too. Regarding the science, you're gonna need to learn it one way or another.

If I was in your situation I'd prob go the college route, you can always think, **** this and leave with a cert/diploma or whenever.. plus if you did it in your current field it would add to your cv even if you decided not to progress to medicine.

brendanwalsh · 25-01-2019 1:23am

Is there a mature entry route for people with no degree or leaving cert?

Repeating leaving cert would be faster and cheaper. If you have no degree then you'd be entitled to free fees for medicine. One year to repeat the LC and get the points as opposed to 4 years for an undergraduate degree and then 60k fees to do grad med.

Have you considered eastern Europe?
They'd take pretty much anyone there if you are willing to pay. Plenty of English speaking medicine schools in Czech Bulgaria Hungary and Romania to name a few.

milhous · 25-01-2019 9:29am

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Is there a mature entry route for people with no degree or leaving cert?.

No I don't think so.

PhoneMain · 25-01-2019 10:38am

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Is there a mature entry route for people with no degree or leaving cert?

Repeating leaving cert would be faster and cheaper. If you have no degree then you'd be entitled to free fees for medicine. One year to repeat the LC and get the points as opposed to 4 years for an undergraduate degree and then 60k fees to do grad med.

Have you considered eastern Europe?
They'd take pretty much anyone there if you are willing to pay. Plenty of English speaking medicine schools in Czech Bulgaria Hungary and Romania to name a few.

I know a lad who didn't have a 2.1 in his level 8 so GEM was out for him. Mid to late 20s went back to do the LC. Did the HPAT & think he did well on that and did well in the interview and was offered a place as a mature student (in the undergrad programme) before he even sat the LC. That said, he did have to do the LC after. He paid 9k for 5 years I think

TallGlass · 25-01-2019 12:30pm

The LC route is not the worst of the options, however I would really struggle with the language side of things. The sciences I would be fine with, find that it interesting.

From my calculations it's around 550 points minimum needed, so there is little to no room for error and or lack of knowledge in any area, so that's where I am stopped at the moment, I would need minimums in Irish/French at OL, would have to meet them. I have even been playing with the idea lately of Danish or German, as they are from same family as English (well German anyway), but then Spanish is apparently easy to pick up. However unlike the sciences or English even, YouTube is a great resource to pick up where your not sure, but it falls down then for the languages, so trying to fork out 30€ a pop for grinds is going to run into some bill.

Going in as a Post Grad, I could pick up a IT degree fairly handy in IT management as that's nearly my role at the moment. Could do it part time, however I would be picking up the tab on that, which is quite expensive from researching about 3.5/4k a year, then not sure but would be picking up the tab again on med for 15k a year (provided I get in that is). Then there is a niggling thoughts in back of my mind, that part time degrees might no be counted for post grad entry?

Regards EE, I have thought about it. I don't think that it would be for me to be honest.

milhous · 25-01-2019 1:22pm

TallGlass wrote: »

The LC route is not the worst of the options, however I would really struggle with the language side of things. The sciences I would be fine with, find that it interesting.

From my calculations it's around 550 points minimum needed, so there is little to no room for error and or lack of knowledge in any area, so that's where I am stopped at the moment, I would need minimums in Irish/French at OL, would have to meet them. I have even been playing with the idea lately of Danish or German, as they are from same family as English (well German anyway), but then Spanish is apparently easy to pick up. However unlike the sciences or English even, YouTube is a great resource to pick up where your not sure, but it falls down then for the languages, so trying to fork out 30€ a pop for grinds is going to run into some bill.

Going in as a Post Grad, I could pick up a IT degree fairly handy in IT management as that's nearly my role at the moment. Could do it part time, however I would be picking up the tab on that, which is quite expensive from researching about 3.5/4k a year, then not sure but would be picking up the tab again on med for 15k a year (provided I get in that is). Then there is a niggling thoughts in back of my mind, that part time degrees might no be counted for post grad entry?

Regards EE, I have thought about it. I don't think that it would be for me to be honest.

Honestly from your starting point it seems a bit daunting. Especially when you haven't studied third level before and know what's involved. FIor instance, no matter what you find i nteresring it eill be made to be bot fun at all.
I found med chem alright although I did say after 4th year that i never want ed to sit another exam ever again .. that feeling has somewhat m disappeared and im doing a masters... but the thoughts of medicine, a notch up form science.. gawd, tired just thinking about it

Kirby2k07 · 25-01-2019 10:14pm

TallGlass wrote: »

The LC route is not the worst of the options, however I would really struggle with the language side of things. The sciences I would be fine with, find that it interesting.

From my calculations it's around 550 points minimum needed, so there is little to no room for error and or lack of knowledge in any area, so that's where I am stopped at the moment, I would need minimums in Irish/French at OL, would have to meet them. I have even been playing with the idea lately of Danish or German, as they are from same family as English (well German anyway), but then Spanish is apparently easy to pick up. However unlike the sciences or English even, YouTube is a great resource to pick up where your not sure, but it falls down then for the languages, so trying to fork out 30€ a pop for grinds is going to run into some bill.

Going in as a Post Grad, I could pick up a IT degree fairly handy in IT management as that's nearly my role at the moment. Could do it part time, however I would be picking up the tab on that, which is quite expensive from researching about 3.5/4k a year, then not sure but would be picking up the tab again on med for 15k a year (provided I get in that is). Then there is a niggling thoughts in back of my mind, that part time degrees might no be counted for post grad entry?

Regards EE, I have thought about it. I don't think that it would be for me to be honest.

This looks like the best option for yourself;

http://www.ucd.ie/all/cometoucd/applying/accesscourses/accesstoscienceengineeringagriculture/

Doing well enough in that along with the HPAT should allow you to apply for this;

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/admissions/MY_DN400.html

Kirby2k07 · 25-01-2019 10:28pm

Here is further information;

https://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/Brochure%20High%20Res.pdf

I only skimmed through it, never actually heard of this myself, must be new. Looks like you don’t necessarily need LC, do the prep course one year part time @ €1800. Get a min gpa of 3.08 which is a 2.1 overall and a first in their chem science module, with a HPAT 150 min. Then you have to do a 750 word reflective journal presumably on why you want to be a doc.

They take 2 of the applicants into undergrad medicine, although how competitive that is, I don’t know, didn’t actually spot how many they take into the access course!

TallGlass · 26-01-2019 9:24pm

Skimmed it earlier alright!

2 people is really low, that is some gamble. However it seems like something I would like to know more information about. Part time is also great for the other course, allows me to remain in my current role.

I might just give it a shot and go see what happens.

TallGlass · 26-01-2019 9:40pm

So read over it. Seems the best option, will put in an application and go from there. Seems to have just been added this year also, so might be in testing. Plus I think it will give me an idea of the level of commitment involved and the level at which we are talking education wise and if I can cope.

Good thing also, I literally just repeated LC maths at OL.

Will update you guys on how I get on!

jammydodger7 · 28-01-2019 2:16am

Hi all,

Sorry if this is hijacking or diverting from your questions Tallglass.

I read the previous posts and there are lots of useful insights so thanks everyone.

Anyway, Im 29 and considering giving up mundane but sensible/ stable accounting in search of the fulfilment that I hope medicine might be able to provide.

In terms of grad entry vs mature student undergrad courses:
Can apply to undergrad courses as a mature student if I have graduated already but have enough leaving cert points?
Is there much difference in terms of fees? Ive only looked at UL GEMS so far which I think is 14k p.a. Could I save much by going the other route (or do I lose any potential benefit by having done an undergrad already)?
Are the undergrad courses always a year longer?
Ive heard from a few that the UL GEMS course is very good. Are there any particular courses, grad or undergrad that are considered to be "better"/ looked on more favourably?

Maybe the answers are that I need to delve into the websites are prospectus more deeply, but would appreciate any input and advice.

Thanks!

milhous · 28-01-2019 11:44am

jammydodger7 wrote: »

Hi all,

Sorry if this is hijacking or diverting from your questions Tallglass.

I read the previous posts and there are lots of useful insights so thanks everyone.

Anyway, Im 29 and considering giving up mundane but sensible/ stable accounting in search of the fulfilment that I hope medicine might be able to provide.

In terms of grad entry vs mature student undergrad courses:
Can apply to undergrad courses as a mature student if I have graduated already but have enough leaving cert points?
Is there much difference in terms of fees? Ive only looked at UL GEMS so far which I think is 14k p.a. Could I save much by going the other route (or do I lose any potential benefit by having done an undergrad already)?
Are the undergrad courses always a year longer?
Ive heard from a few that the UL GEMS course is very good. Are there any particular courses, grad or undergrad that are considered to be "better"/ looked on more favourably?

Maybe the answers are that I need to delve into the websites are prospectus more deeply, but would appreciate any input and advice.

Thanks!

I think because you did undergrad already your subsidies have been used up and you'll have the higher rate of fees. Also the extra year.

Recap · 28-01-2019 11:56am

jammydodger7 wrote: »

Are there any particular courses, grad or undergrad that are considered to be "better"/ looked on more favourably?

The GEMs are all more or less the same in terms of content and what is taught. You will have a few small differences but medical education is more or less the same in the Western world, regardless of where you go. Hence why you see so many doctors travelling across borders.

UL does take a slightly different approach to teaching compared to, say, UCD, which is far more classroom based at the start. Don't worry so much about getting into the 'best' and focus more on where you would like to live and practice.

brendanwalsh · 28-01-2019 2:59pm

Recap wrote: »

The GEMs are all more or less the same in terms of content and what is taught. You will have a few small differences but medical education is more or less the same in the Western world, regardless of where you go. Hence why you see so many doctors travelling across borders.

UL does take a slightly different approach to teaching compared to, say, UCD, which is far more classroom based at the start. Don't worry so much about getting into the 'best' and focus more on where you would like to live and practice.

There is little to no teaching in UL GEMS so the courses are actually considerably different.

TallGlass · 30-01-2019 12:49pm

I don't suppose anyone knows.

If for example, I was to do a level 8 BSc in IT part time over 3 years and I stand to be corrected on this, if I am funding it, IE paying for it and then apply to do graduate entry Medicine, am I footing the bill on that one also?

I have never been to college* or availed of 'free fees'?

I'm not thinking, are these part time courses 'part funded' or something?

*I have started a part time course in DIT, but had to pull out due to a job change, however I paid fees.

The entire fees system is a nightmare to navigate around.

Naija guy · 31-01-2019 6:29am

TallGlass wrote: »

I don't suppose anyone knows.

If for example, I was to do a level 8 BSc in IT part time over 3 years and I stand to be corrected on this, if I am funding it, IE paying for it and then apply to do graduate entry Medicine, am I footing the bill on that one also?

I have never been to college* or availed of 'free fees'?

I'm not thinking, are these part time courses 'part funded' or something?

*I have started a part time course in DIT, but had to pull out due to a job change, however I paid fees.

The entire fees system is a nightmare to navigate around.

TallGlass wrote: »

I don't suppose anyone knows.

I applied for GEM with a Business-related degree from DIT which I did part time. I paid my way through during the 4-year duration.

I paid half of my GEM fees and borrowed the rest.

I think if you present a level 8 degree to apply for GEM, it is presumed that you have availed of the so called "free fees" or maybe, the said level 8 degree might have been partly Government funded. I know GEM is being subsidised by the government by 10k on top of the 15+ k students have to pay.

In order of ascending order, the difficulty with the whole GEM experience for me was:
Fees/Finance < Med school/study < GAMSAT

Even though money was the least of my problems, there were times when I couldn't afford rent and I also had to shower in my local gym so as not to be too much of a burden where I was squatting. It was a rough ride but it's all behind me now.

While it's important to consider the fees, thinking about it step by step, a competitive GAMSAT score + at least a 2:1 in a level 8 degree in my opinion should come first.

TallGlass · 31-01-2019 8:27am

Naija guy wrote: »

In order of ascending order, the difficulty with the whole GEM experience for me was:
Fees/Finance < Med school/study < GAMSAT

While it's important to consider the fees, thinking about it step by step, a competitive GAMSAT score + at least a 2:1 in a level 8 degree in my opinion should come first.

Quickly looking like the outcome on this side also! I was of the option, 'cross that bridge when I come to it', however that doesn't play out in this, all parts need to be in sync.

GAMSAT, looks like a few months of study in itself. Then the 2.1, I could manage in an IT course.

So my thoughts are, take a chance with the access course to UCD with a 2% chance if 100 people are on the course. (Provided I get on it), benefits save time and fee situation might be reduced.

Or just get on with the IT management course. Benefits, have a degree in my field if something changes.

PhoneMain · 31-01-2019 5:02pm

brendanwalsh wrote: »

There is little to no teaching in UL GEMS so the courses are actually considerably different.

I worked with UL GEM grads this year and found them to be no worse than grads from other unis.

Young_gunner · 18-12-2023 11:36am

Hi all

I just wanted to bump this thread to see if there's any other thoughts on it - been doing a lot of soul-searching lately.

is getting on the GP scheme now ultra-competitive and what happens those people who don't get on the GP scheme but perhaps feel they are too old to consider any other speciality, or are just set on GP.

(I'm 41, with a mortgage and 1 young child).

18-12-2023 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509259#Comment_121509259

There are now extra GP training places, but there will always be some competition for places. Realistically, if you start in the next intake, you are looking at 10 years before you are a qualified GP.

Young_gunner · 18-12-2023 12:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509286#Comment_121509286

thanks yes, I would be 50 before being a qualified GP. It's just too old to be honest.

Personally I think a realistic cut-off for going back to GEM is early to mid 30s, i think that age or earlier is perfectly fine and will leave you with a long enough career afterwards to have made it worthwhile.

After this age, and this is just my opinion, i think you are likely to have accumulated dependents and responsibilities that make the GEM courses unviable.

kicking my 28 yo self for not having the town halls to do it when it first entered my mind!!!

18-12-2023 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509407#Comment_121509407

Doing medicine and subsequently GP training is challenging for any age student, but I suspect it’s more for mature students with other responsibilities like a family/mortgage. There isn’t a lot of free time for part time work as it tends to be one of the more full-on courses.

Young_gunner · 18-12-2023 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509654#Comment_121509654

thanks for this. can I ask, what happens if you don't make the GP scheme? are you left in limbo?

the latest numbers I say show about 4 people applying for every one place on the scheme.

18-12-2023 4:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510430#Comment_121510430

A lot of medical students start off with a particular career path in mind, only to find during their undergraduate years that that particular field is not what they ultimately decide on. There will be other options apart from GP training, you may even look to schemes outside Ireland (again unfortunately that is where existing commitments may limit your ability to choose alternative options).

Anita Blow · 20-12-2023 12:18pm

I don't necessarily think 42 is too old starting medicine if your intention is GP. You'd graduate at 46, enter the scheme at 47 and by 49 you would be a GP registrar for 2 years essentially doing the same job with some supervision.

Your time in hospital medicine will still be enjoyable, you'll still be earning a decent wage and if it's what you want to do you'll be happy. An intern year fully in Dublin or commutable from Dublin (presuming you're from here) is achievable, and GP scheme is quite localised into deaneries so you'd not have to move either if you got onto a TCD/UCD/RCSI deanery which is also very achievable.

You're going to be 50 either way, may as well be 50 and in a job you enjoy and have wanted!

Young_gunner · 20-12-2023 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517492#Comment_121517492

Thanks Anita, that's a very helpful post. I agree with most of your points and if I were single, I think you're totally correct.

The reality is that, at 41, Life kinda gets in the way!! I am leaning towards thinking it isn't fair on my spouse and son, plus all sorts of practical considerations like mortgage, childcare etc etc.

getting old sucks!

How old is too old to return to study GAMSAT and Grad Med ?

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