BREAKING: Maryland school shooting

riffmongous · 20-03-2018 4:14pm

Gravelly wrote: »

I doubt the only ones getting shot would be the shadowy "gun nuts" who are to blame for all this.

I'd prefer that nobody gets shot, but it'll take more than gung-ho European keyboard warriors for America to get there unfortunately.

Go for the gun nuts first and then maybe the rest of the country will wake up and realise how insane the whole thing is, that standard checks the rest of the civilised world has adopted aren't worth a civil war.

Otherwise it's just wait until the next massacre

dr.fuzzenstein · 20-03-2018 4:17pm

Gravelly wrote: »

I doubt the only ones getting shot would be the shadowy "gun nuts" who are to blame for all this.

I'd prefer that nobody gets shot, but it'll take more than gung-ho European keyboard warriors for America to get there unfortunately.

I can't figure out if you're being really cynical, genuinely concerned, a pro gun nut or trolling.

:mad:

jjbrien · 20-03-2018 4:17pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

There appears to be no appetite in America to stop the slaughter, so until next time which may already have happened. Take care.

It will take a high profile politicians kid to get killed sadly to fix their problem.

Skedaddle · 20-03-2018 4:20pm

Don't worry the political powers in the US will come up with some solutions that runs against all logic and involves more guns rather than gun legislation because they're owned outright by the gun lobby.

As sad as these events are, it's incredible that a country can be so shortsighted that it will just allow a cycle of horrible gun violence without any attempt to deal with it because they're dogmatically wedded to an ideology that puts the freedom to shoot stuff ahead of the freedom to not be shot.

I have actually given up paying attention to them as there's nothing you can do. You know that the response will be either handwringing or some utterly insane proposal to arm teachers. So, I don't really see what the point is. American politics is bonkers and this will just keep going on and on and on.

Gravelly · 20-03-2018 4:20pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I can't figure out if you're being really cynical, genuinely concerned, a pro gun nut or trolling. :mad:

What would you possibly think I'm trolling? Or a gun nut? This is typical of the reaction to gun violence by non-Americans - "oh they should ban guns and then everything will be ok"
When one tries to inject a little reality into the discussion, one is automatically either a troll or a gun nut.

Omackeral · 20-03-2018 4:35pm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

RIP

Hopefully its not too many kids killed.

Steady on, no fatalities announced. This is the 17th school shooting this year in the US apparently. Only last week in that very school, students staged a walk-out in protest of gun violence on campuses and just few days later it gets shot up. Bloody mental.

Omackeral · 20-03-2018 4:38pm

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Is there even a point starting these threads anymore?

You're probably right, just make a sticky. At this point it's just the exact same over and back arguments being made. I don't recall the last school shooting that actually shocked me. From memory it's Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech, everything else just blends into one ball of meh, which is sad.

BattleCorp · 20-03-2018 4:48pm

RustyNut wrote: »

I think that the rest of the world just needs to accept that America as a society values its guns more than its kids. All that the rest of us can do is leave them to it.

:rolleyes:

So, American's don't value the life of kids eh?

It is possible to own firearms and still value the life of a child. They aren't mutually exclusive.

BattleCorp · 20-03-2018 4:49pm

riffmongous wrote: »

You know what, **** em, I'd rather a few gun nuts getting shot than more innocent kids.

300,000,000 + guns out there. It'd be more than a few gun nuts getting shot.

Richard Hillman · 20-03-2018 4:50pm

Copy Cat killings. It's the notoriety that the gunmen gets that attracts repeats

Billy86 · 20-03-2018 5:04pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No 9 year old can walk in to a gun shop and buy a gun.

a 13 year old however...

http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-13-year-old-couldnt-buy-cigarettes-but-he-could-buy-a-gun-2016-6?r=US&IR=T

Billy86 · 20-03-2018 5:05pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

"Thoughts and Prayers and fu*k off and stop annoying us".

Edited for accuracy.

riffmongous · 20-03-2018 5:08pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

300,000,000 + guns out there. It'd be more than a few gun nuts getting shot.

You'd hope once the mild mannered americans see innocent policemen and soldiers being shot at by loons over basic checks and registrations they might come to their senses. They seem to respect them more than they do their children

Tabnabs · 20-03-2018 5:11pm

ABC7's Brad Bell said sources tell him the shooter was a student, as were the two victims. Bell says a school resource officer took action to end the threat and authorities confirmed the incident has been contained.

http://wjla.com/news/local/officials-shooting-at-great-mills-hs-in-maryland-incident-contained

Shooter neutralised by staff member? That's awkward.

BattleCorp · 20-03-2018 5:15pm

riffmongous wrote: »

You'd hope once the mild mannered americans see innocent policemen and soldiers being shot at by loons over basic checks and registrations they might come to their senses. They seem to respect them more than they do their children

You'd be surprised how much those mild mannered Americans don't want to give up their guns. Many Americans who don't own guns also support the 2nd Amendment.

And once again I will repeat - You can be a gun owner and still respect the life of a child. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Harry Palmr · 20-03-2018 5:15pm

and why there will be more of these with no let up

From guardian https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/20/maryland-high-school-shooting-great-mills

Last month, the St Mary’s County sheriff’s office said it arrested two teenage boys for “threats of mass violence” and a 39-year-old man on related charges after the teens made threats about a potential school shooting at nearby Leonardtown High.

Police said they obtained search warrants and found a cache of semi-automatic rifles, handguns and other weapons.

Great Mills high school has about 1,600 students and is near the Patuxent River Naval Air Station, about 65 miles south-east of Washington DC. St Mary’s County Public Schools first reported the shooting, saying the event was “contained” and the campus was on lockdown.

riffmongous · 20-03-2018 5:41pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

You'd be surprised how much those mild mannered Americans don't want to give up their guns. Many Americans who don't own guns also support the 2nd Amendment.

These are things we were talking about, basic stuff in most other countries. Anyone willing to go to war over those is mental, afaik no other people have done it.

- Ban all private gun sales (if you want to sell your gun, you sell it to a dealer)

- Mandatory registration of all firearms
-- Including an obligation to report thefts/losses (and penalties if you don't)
-- Severe penalties for possessing a weapon that is not licenced to you; like 5-10 years in prison.

- Basic checks and limits on who can buy weapons and how many weapons they can own

- Random amnesties where people can register / surrender unlicenced weapons without penalty.

And once again I will repeat - You can be a gun owner and still respect the life of a child. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Sure I have my own gun, but how can you say those who refuse to do anything to prevent kids being murdered in their own schools a couple of times a year really respects the lives of children? The whole gun culture is rotten over there and until something is done to change it we'll just see report after report of kids being killed followed by the usual excuses and empty promises to focus on mental health etc. There was a story only a few days ago about a 9 year old boy getting a gun and shooting his 13 year old sister over an argument about a game controller, that is just messed up, and until Americans learn to truly respect guns and their children it's just going to keep happening

BattleCorp · 20-03-2018 5:49pm

riffmongous wrote: »

These are things we were talking about, basic stuff in most other countries. Anyone willing to go to war over those is mental, afaik no other people have done it.

Having a gun is a right in America. When you talk about banning guns, you are talking about removing a right. Plenty of wars have been fought over people losing rights.

Sure I have my own gun, but how can you say those who refuse to do anything to prevent kids being murdered in their own schools a couple of times a year really respects the lives of children?

And if you were in America, would giving up your gun save any of those kids? I doubt it as you aren't likely to go shooting up a school. And that's the same for nearly every gun owner in America.

The whole gun culture is rotten over there and until something is done to change it we'll just see report after report of kids being killed followed by the usual excuses and empty promises to focus on mental health etc.

I agree that it's too easy for a mental person to get a gun over there. There needs to be more control on who gets access to guns.

There was a story only a few days ago about a 9 year old boy getting a gun and shooting his 13 year old sister over an argument about a game controller, that is just messed up, and until Americans learn to truly respect guns and their children it's just going to keep happening

Laws aren't always the answer to every problem. Believe it or not but there are laws already in place to keep guns away from kids. Whoever was in charge of these kids (most likely parents) will be in trouble with the law over this incident.

Pepefrogok · 20-03-2018 6:50pm

This went quite quickly?!?!?

Snickers Man · 20-03-2018 7:52pm

jjbrien wrote: »

It will take a high profile politicians kid to get killed sadly to fix their problem.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure if, like, FOUR PRESIDENTS had been killed, they would have sorted it out pretty quickly.

Hey, wait a minute.........

Snickers Man · 20-03-2018 8:00pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

And once again I will repeat - You can be a gun owner and still respect the life of a child. They aren't mutually exclusive.

"Hic. Great night lads. (pffrrt) You musht be, you musht be (hic) my bestest friends in all the world (paaarrp). Come, one. I'll give you all..(hic)..give you all, a lift home in my SUV"

"Come on now, Snickers. You're pissed. You can't get behind a wheel in that state!" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

"But I love my kids!!" :mad:

"Oh well in that case. I'll take the front seat. Cheers"

Donald Trump · 20-03-2018 8:50pm

Gravelly wrote: »

I get the "gun nuts, can't have nice things, headcases" stuff, honestly I do. But it won't progress things one iota. There is no way, absolutely none, that any law banning guns, or access to guns, can pass in the United States. Europeans can wail and cry as much as we like, it just won't happen. There would be civil war if any politician tried, not that any would, because they know that.

So, if we leave the emotion aside, how does one address gun violence in the USA, while accepting the reality that a ban or restriction can never happen in the medium to long term?

New handgun registrations were banned in Washington DC for over 30 years from 1976.
Someone eventually brought a constitutional challenge but there wasn't exactly protests ongoing all the time.

Carrying of guns is effectively banned as well in NYC for the majority of people.

Nobody expects it to be turned off overnight. But steps in the right direction can be made. And then over the course of a generation, maybe it can be solved.

Billy86 · 20-03-2018 9:36pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

New handgun registrations were banned in Washington DC for over 30 years from 1976.
Someone eventually brought a constitutional challenge but there wasn't exactly protests ongoing all the time.

Carrying of guns is effectively banned as well in NYC for the majority of people.

Nobody expects it to be turned off overnight. But steps in the right direction can be made. And then over the course of a generation, maybe it can be solved.

Donald you're coherent, are you feeling ok!?

Donald Trump · 20-03-2018 9:52pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Donald you're coherent, are you feeling ok!?

Have been on the crack pipe all day

steddyeddy · 20-03-2018 10:13pm

rgodard80a wrote: »

It's in their constitution to bear arms.
However if you could absolutely lock down the supply of ammo, it might be a workaround.

The lives of kids is more important than some outdated idea written into the constitution a few hundred years ago.

Kermit.de.frog · 20-03-2018 10:14pm

Thoughts and prayers to the victims.

FCIM · 20-03-2018 10:27pm

rgodard80a wrote: »

It's in their constitution to bear arms.
However if you could absolutely lock down the supply of ammo, it might be a workaround.

I'd be interested to see exactly what was in the consitution. Surely if it is a right to bear "arms" then a distinction could be made between bearing arms in terms of a baseball bat and bearing arms in terms of a kaleshnikov or am I wrong that arms is a synonym for weapon and not gun? Still not ideal, and I would still prefer the situation we have here where bringing a baseball bat into a pub as an example isn't tolerated but I'd much rather someone come at me with one of those than with a weapon that is really only intended for armed forces usage.

steddyeddy · 21-03-2018 12:04am

I think that America values gun ownership more than lives. It's evident.

BattleCorp · 21-03-2018 12:12am

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think that America values gun ownership more than lives. It's evident.

I'm like a broken record here. Why can't someone own a gun and still value life?

If I own a gun, does that mean I support school shootings?

steddyeddy · 21-03-2018 12:40am

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm like a broken record here. Why can't someone own a gun and still value life?

If I own a gun, does that mean I support school shootings?

No, but you don't value life if you live in a country that has huge problems with gun violence and resist efforts to fix it. Gun ownership is currently a right, but in America this right is ending lives.

riffmongous · 21-03-2018 2:17am

BattleCorp wrote: »

Having a gun is a right in America. When you talk about banning guns, you are talking about removing a right. Plenty of wars have been fought over people losing rights.

And if you were in America, would giving up your gun save any of those kids? I doubt it as you aren't likely to go shooting up a school. And that's the same for nearly every gun owner in America.

I agree that it's too easy for a mental person to get a gun over there. There needs to be more control on who gets access to guns.

Laws aren't always the answer to every problem. Believe it or not but there are laws already in place to keep guns away from kids. Whoever was in charge of these kids (most likely parents) will be in trouble with the law over this incident.

But we are not talking about banning guns, we were talking about restricting them and registering them. And the right to have a gun is not absolute, there have always been restrictions; children, felons, etc. Of course if you are a felon you can always just buy one privately in some states without a background check

pleas advice · 21-03-2018 2:48am

seems to be a lad carrying out a parcel bomb campaign in Texas the last few weeks, I think two dead and five injured in four explosions so far, with another two exploding and one unexploded device found today.

Not sure if its a big thing, or just a regular thing ... just reading it now, so my facts are probably wrong

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/20/us/austin-bomb-san-antonio-fedex.html

Edit. added link, updated injuries, one of the explosions today is unrelated, it seems

StinkyMunkey · 21-03-2018 4:45am

I really thought Trump might actually take a leap and introduce tougher gun laws after last big massacre in a school. But tbh, I don't think any new token laws will make one iota of difference.

Cycle continues, and will always continue.

Necro · 21-03-2018 5:43am

BattleCorp wrote: »

Having a gun is a right in America. When you talk about banning guns, you are talking about removing a right. Plenty of wars have been fought over people losing rights.

And if you were in America, would giving up your gun save any of those kids? I doubt it as you aren't likely to go shooting up a school. And that's the same for nearly every gun owner in America.

I agree that it's too easy for a mental person to get a gun over there. There needs to be more control on who gets access to guns.

Laws aren't always the answer to every problem. Believe it or not but there are laws already in place to keep guns away from kids. Whoever was in charge of these kids (most likely parents) will be in trouble with the law over this incident.

You know what's also a right in America?

The right to life. Oh, and that's also in this Constitution you folks arguing against gun control keep banging on and on and on about.

I know which right I'd be arguing is more important.

'No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.'

Donald Trump · 21-03-2018 6:10am

What about me right testicle?

Manic Moran · 21-03-2018 6:18am

Necrominus wrote: »

You know what's also a right in America?

The right to life. Oh, and that's also in this Constitution you folks arguing against gun control keep banging on and on and on about.

I know which right I'd be arguing is more important.

'No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.'

Well, you're not entirely getting that right. The US Constitution works a little differently to the Irish one, as it is a founding document for what the US government can or cannot do, whilst the Irish one is more applicable to the rights of the citizens. Note that it states that "No state shall deprive"... Doesn't say anything about private persons. Although that is also, obviously, against both legislation and common law, it's actually not a Constitutional thing.

So, the 'right to free speech', in the constitution for example, is actually only a protection from government action. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech"

2A is a protection from government action "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

4A is similarly a restriction on government action. "The right of the People to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,"

And so on.

Of course, there is still a pre-existing right to life, as there is a pre-existing right to arms. The US constitution doesn't grant them, it merely prohibits the government from denying them.

pleas advice · 21-03-2018 6:32am

has anyone argued that "The right of the people to be secure in their persons" has as much validity or relevance as "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" ?

screamer · 21-03-2018 7:27am

America doesn't care, why should anyone else? Seriously it's tragic that there have been more school shootings but I'm.kinda meh about them now. They live with guns they die with guns. Guns are an integral part of their society, a society which they chose to live in and seem to have little interest to change.

GTGTGTGT · 21-03-2018 8:57am

I never get how people argue it's the Constitution it can't be changed. Considering at one point it was pro slavery. It was fine to change that but not this.

BattleCorp · 21-03-2018 9:21am

GTGTGTGT wrote: »

I never get how people argue it's the Constitution it can't be changed. Considering at one point it was pro slavery. It was fine to change that but not this.

Not that it has anything to do with this conversation but there was a hell of a lot of resistance to getting rid of slavery. But slavery is completely wrong. Owning a gun isn't necessarily wrong. They aren't the same thing.

By the way, who here is arguing that the American Constitution can't be changed? I certainly am not arguing that.

But you have to adhere to the law as it is, not how you'd like it to be. If it's changed, so be it. Is there the will to remove the 2nd Amendment from the US Constitution right now, I don't think so.

steddyeddy wrote: »

No, but you don't value life if you live in a country that has huge problems with gun violence and resist efforts to fix it. Gun ownership is currently a right, but in America this right is ending lives.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't agree with that statement. Just because you own a gun and don't want to give it up, that doesn't mean that you don't value life.

I think you'll find that a lot of gun owners (myself included) are in favour of some sort of gun control. I'm not in favour of banning guns, I'm in favour of doing the utmost to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.

riffmongous wrote: »

But we are not talking about banning guns, we were talking about restricting them and registering them. And the right to have a gun is not absolute, there have always been restrictions; children, felons, etc. Of course if you are a felon you can always just buy one privately in some states without a background check

I'm actually in agreement with you here. I think guns should be restricted to those who are of sound mind, good character etc. I also believe there should be background checks etc.

Christy42 · 21-03-2018 10:11am

BattleCorp wrote: »

Not that it has anything to do with this conversation but there was a hell of a lot of resistance to getting rid of slavery. But slavery is completely wrong. Owning a gun isn't necessarily wrong. They aren't the same thing.

By the way, who here is arguing that the American Constitution can't be changed? I certainly am not arguing that.

But you have to adhere to the law as it is, not how you'd like it to be. If it's changed, so be it. Is there the will to remove the 2nd Amendment from the US Constitution right now, I don't think so.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't agree with that statement. Just because you own a gun and don't want to give it up, that doesn't mean that you don't value life.

I think you'll find that a lot of gun owners (myself included) are in favour of some sort of gun control. I'm not in favour of banning guns, I'm in favour of doing the utmost to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.

I'm actually in agreement with you here. I think guns should be restricted to those who are of sound mind, good character etc. I also believe there should be background checks etc.

Indeed I think everyone means restricting guns even if they say banning. Most people consider guns to be banned in Ireland when in reality they are just rare and awkward to get.

The issue is that people are pointing out that in the states they value guns more than children's lives. Even after Florida the NRA is still set against age restrictions. This isn't about every single gun owner giving up their guns. People are more arguing against the gun culture and laws in the states (which you also seem to be against).

Yup at a certain point it will have to be removed as a right if people are serious but I see no reason for a complete ban on all guns ever (I am not sure if any country has that).

elbyrneo · 21-03-2018 10:19am

Sweet Lord this thread is depressing reading. The constitutional rights argument is utter garbage.

It's the 2nd amendment. An amendment. See the "amend" in there. Of course the constitution can be changed. That's want an amendment is.......

Wanderer78 · 21-03-2018 10:20am

I do believe a large proportion of Americans have had enough of these gun tragedies, but unfortunately since democratic rule is in short supply due to the highly complex nature of their political system, which more or less resembles a some what dysfunctional form of plutocracy, they are stuck with these outcomes for the foreseeable future

BattleCorp · 21-03-2018 10:23am

elbyrneo wrote: »

Sweet Lord this thread is depressing reading. The constitutional rights argument is utter garbage.

It's the 2nd amendment. An amendment. See the "amend" in there. Of course the constitution can be changed. That's want an amendment is.......

Yes, it can be changed.

But it's there. So it's law right now. We have to go with the laws right now.

If you want it removed, start a campaign, do whatever, but for the moment it is there and therefore it has to be obeyed.

If the Americans get rid of it, so be it. But even if it is gotten rid of, I think each State has its own Constitution so they'd have to be gotten rid of too.

Gravelly · 21-03-2018 10:29am

elbyrneo wrote: »

Sweet Lord this thread is depressing reading. The constitutional rights argument is utter garbage.

It's the 2nd amendment. An amendment. See the "amend" in there. Of course the constitution can be changed. That's want an amendment is.......

It's simple so, all you need to do is either get an amendment proposed by Congress, with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate, or you can get a constitutional convention called by two-thirds of the State legislatures.

elefant · 21-03-2018 10:47am

BattleCorp wrote: »

But it's there. So it's law right now. We have to go with the laws right now.

If you want it removed, start a campaign, do whatever, but for the moment it is there and therefore it has to be obeyed.

Enlightening stuff.

BattleCorp · 21-03-2018 11:00am

elefant wrote: »

Enlightening stuff.

What do you suggest so?

21-03-2018 11:29am

I’m confused.

There is The Constitution but also each state has it’s own constitution?
So if your states constitution says guns can only be purchased by people over 30 years old (just making that up), could you then ignore that and say the other Constitution says I can?
If the main Constitution said over 30s only can you refer to your states constitution saying that rule doesn’t apply here?

Grab All Association · 21-03-2018 11:42am

https://youtu.be/E33Z0RPWuHs

Merica

BattleCorp · 21-03-2018 11:55am

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I’m confused.

There is The Constitution but also each state has it’s own constitution?
So if your states constitution says guns can only be purchased by people over 30 years old (just making that up), could you then ignore that and say the other Constitution says I can?
If the main Constitution said over 30s only can you refer to your states constitution saying that rule doesn’t apply here?

I'm not sure as I'm not American nor do I live in America.

I'll wait for Manic Moran to answer that one.

BREAKING: Maryland school shooting

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