BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

punisher5112 · 06-06-2017 6:47pm

What could be could would be routes linking up and late buses to the airport and back.

As above select core busy areas.

No point having likes of 184 or 63 for example as 24 hour but plenty of others which could even change slightly after 12 to 6 let's say.

lucernarian · 06-06-2017 7:02pm

Victor wrote: »

Note that Nitelinks are now PSO services. I wonder if even a select few routes would get some late service during the week, e.g. 145, 16, 27, 13.

That's interesting. Source anyone?

monument · 06-06-2017 7:03pm

Bambi wrote: »

Appparently nearly all of dublin has a bus frequency of 9 minutes or better at midday on weekdays

Sure why do we need a review at all if thats the case :rolleyes:

Which begs the question was this report based on stats provided by dublin bus rather than old fashioned field work

They're goosed from the get go if it was

If you're looking at the map, I think you're looking at the wrong line thickness

dublinman1990 · 06-06-2017 7:08pm

I liked the idea of broader resources being put out on the orbital routes in the redesign to make them more frequent. The amount of orbital routes right now operated by Dublin Bus is at a severely small limit. The average departure times for each orbital route is quite erratic going by the graph on page 35 of the report.

There are 4 routes there which have a waiting time of between 26 and 40 minutes. 2 of them, the 17a & the 18, would probably fit the remit of the suitable waiting times for orbital routes. The orbital routes in the Blanchardstown area & routes like the 70d & 31d need to be reorganized in a serious way from their current frequency. Their presence in those areas makes them look almost non existent & makes them like a damp squib in comparison to other orbital routes.

There are also a lot of noticeable gaps in the amount of bus lanes on page 32 of the report which makes some of the current network very fragmented. If they were plans to build higher quality because of widening roads in Dublin. The overall results of would be a lot of broader than it what it looks right now.

monument · 06-06-2017 7:24pm

murphaph wrote: »

If this all comes to fruition then it slots nicely into any future underground lines we might build (yeah yeah, I know). You could "simply" replace a bus spine with an underground line.

Within built up areas, high frequency bus and trams stops should generally be set around 400-500 metres apart while Metro or Dart stations should be set round 1 to 1.5 km apart.

One doesn't mean the other isn't needed.

Stephen15 · 06-06-2017 7:36pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

No point having likes of 184 or 63 for example as 24 hour but plenty of others which could even change slightly after 12 to 6 let's say.

TBH I dont even see the point on running the routes that you've mentioned past 10 at night. The only people out in suburbs that might use a bus late at night are drunk oul fellas coming home from the pub or teenagers coming home from drinking in the field. Neither of which make up huge numbers.

markpb · 06-06-2017 7:47pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

TBH I dont even see the point on running the routes that you've mentioned past 10 at night. The only people out in suburbs that might use a bus late at night are drunk oul fellas coming home from the pub or teenagers coming home from drinking in the field. Neither of which make up huge numbers.

What about people finishing work or college late, visiting their friends, coming home from sports training or any of the vast array of perfectly normal reasons why you might be out after 10?

Luas carries a decent number of people on both routes late in the evenings, at weekends and on bank holidays and yet DB doesn't attract any demand at those times. I wonder if there's a link there? There's a section in the document which discusses suppressed demand due to poor service.

brokenarms · 06-06-2017 7:56pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

TBH I dont even see the point on running the routes that you've mentioned past 10 at night. The only people out in suburbs that might use a bus late at night are drunk oul fellas coming home from the pub or teenagers coming home from drinking in the field. Neither of which make up huge numbers.

In my experience, thats exactly the passengers I get. Local oul boys going home from the pub with a FTP mostly.

Tarabuses · 06-06-2017 7:56pm

The reference to routes as lines is tedious. Could they not have been asked to use terminoligy in use in Dublin?

LeinsterDub · 06-06-2017 8:16pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

The reference to routes as lines is tedious. Could they not have been asked to use terminoligy in use in Dublin?

I think the shift to line is to signal a change in mindset. Core lines being feed by feeder routes

murphaph · 06-06-2017 8:17pm

monument wrote: »

Within built up areas, high frequency bus and trams stops should generally be set around 400-500 metres apart while Metro or Dart stations should be set round 1 to 1.5 metres apart.

One doesn't mean the other isn't needed.

I don't know of any examples where buses run parallel to the underground in Berlin. If you want to go somewhere equidistant to two underground stations you're walking the 500m.

monument · 06-06-2017 8:39pm

murphaph wrote: »

I don't know of any examples where buses run parallel to the underground in Berlin. If you want to go somewhere equidistant to two underground stations you're walking the 500m.

So, then Dublin should not build underground lines fully parallel to road routes.

Dublin is more of the scale of Amsterdam -- there's both tram lines and (partly underground) metro routes. Both have somewhat different functions.

LXFlyer · 06-06-2017 8:50pm

Victor wrote: »

Note that Nitelinks are now PSO services. I wonder if even a select few routes would get some late service during the week, e.g. 145, 16, 27, 13.

lucernarian wrote: »

That's interesting. Source anyone?

Nitelink services have been PSO for some time - since the last PSO contract - they were included in the list of contracted services.

murphaph · 06-06-2017 8:51pm

monument wrote: »

So, then Dublin should not build underground lines fully parallel to road routes.

Dublin is more of the scale of Amsterdam -- there's both tram lines and (partly underground) metro routes. Both have somewhat different functions.

To be honest this is academic and a problem I dearly wish we had. Let's get back to the reality that the bus network is going to be the mainstay of public transport in Dublin for the foreseeable future.

LXFlyer · 06-06-2017 9:07pm

brokenarms wrote: »

Looks like the 24 hour thing is in the bin. Little demand for a bus after 11pm by their charts.

Let's wait and see. Ultimately whether it happens would be down to funding.

If it did happen it would be on core QBC routes (or potentially merged routes in outlying areas) I'd imagine.

L1011 · 06-06-2017 9:20pm

The weeknight nitelink mergers of old are still sensible really, and where some underlying routes are completely gone

murphaph · 06-06-2017 9:23pm

I think they could implement hourly night buses that offer guaranteed connections at interchanges. The buses arrive in waves every hour and allow 10 mins or so for people to transfer, before departing again. That's how midweek night buses operate here. At the weekend they are much more frequent however and the trains run all night at weekends too, so no need for the guaranteed connections.

These interchanges also attract plenty of taxis, so you can make your way most of the way home on your normal monthly pass and then just pay for a short taxi ride home.

Stephen15 · 06-06-2017 9:36pm

markpb wrote: »

What about people finishing work or college late, visiting their friends, coming home from sports training or any of the vast array of perfectly normal reasons why you might be out after 10?

Luas carries a decent number of people on both routes late in the evenings, at weekends and on bank holidays and yet DB doesn't attract any demand at those times. I wonder if there's a link there? There's a section in the document which discusses suppressed demand due to poor service.

Im talking about the routes the OP mentioned such as the 63 and 184. I would be pro 24h service on the main routes such as the 145, 46a, the lucan routes etc. but as the 63 is my local route which I use regularly I know for fact it gets very little use after 10 at night.

LXFlyer · 06-06-2017 9:51pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Im talking about the routes the OP mentioned such as the 63 and 184. I would be pro 24h service on the main routes such as the 145, 46a, the lucan routes etc. but as the 63 is my local route which I use regularly I know for fact it gets very little use after 10 at night.

You leave those local routes with the normal operating hours - cutting operating hours is not an acceptable solution.

Stephen15 · 06-06-2017 10:27pm

If 24 hour services get the go ahead. It might be an idea to deploy security similar to whats on the luas on buses.

Dyr · 06-06-2017 11:42pm

monument wrote: »

If you're looking at the map, I think you're looking at the wrong line thickness

I was but even at 10-15 minutes those stats aren't based on reality

Any sort of high frequency service like they're proposing is going to have to neutralise a few things:

A)Dublin bus and their predilection for playing silly buggers via their controllers

RTPI should actually be RTPI. The customer can see where any bus on the network is at that point in time and how full it is. The NTA should be overseeing the operation closely in real time rather than relying on stats.

Long term the NTA will just become another CIE over time and we're back to square one but such is Ireland

The amount of closely grouped stops in certain areas (and looking at the heat maps, the worst area's for this are also the ones with the least amount of passengers (but most vocal amount of petitioners to the local TD/councillor

)

C) Enforcement of traffic laws. Good luck with that. The day you see the polish bread delivery dude being routinely pulled by the traffic corpse for parking in the bus lane is the day we need to introduce legislation for elephants intruding on dublin airports air space

D) The bottle necks at various points of the core routes. In fact they'd have to scrap the epic network direct cross city routes because you'll just wind up with six of the same buses in convoy every 20 minutes due to all of the above.
Thats before you even address the city center being shutdown a few weekends a month and banjaxing radial routes

At first glance its saying all the right things at long last (orbital routes no less!! you can almost hear dublin bus hissing at the very mention) I just cant see it surviving first contact with the various vested interests, sorry.. stakeholders

Stephen15 · 06-06-2017 11:49pm

Ok I was reading some of the comments on Facebook and on The Journal.ie and people were saying that DB drivers should undergo customer service training. I don't get it I personally find DB drivers to generally friendly and helpful. The less driver interaction the better surely.

n97 mini · 07-06-2017 12:27am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Ok I was reading some of the comments on Facebook and on The Journal.ie and people were saying that DB drivers should undergo customer service training. I don't get it I personally find DB drivers to generally friendly and helpful. The less driver interaction the better surely.

What route(s) do you use? I find south east Dublin drivers very friendly, west Dublin drivers barely passable, and some northside route drivers have a siege mentality. As a customer I'm always friendly but can understand the position the drivers are in.

Victor · 07-06-2017 12:28am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Ok I was reading some of the comments on Facebook and on The Journal.ie and people were saying that DB drivers should undergo customer service training. I don't get it I personally find DB drivers to generally friendly and helpful. The less driver interaction the better surely.

While most drivers are sound, there are proportions that (a) don't realise things (trying to talk to people on the kerb with the screen up) and (b) are not motivated to help the passenger (driving on when 4 people have their hands out on a half full bus).

Stephen15 · 07-06-2017 12:41am

n97 mini wrote: »

What route(s) do you use? I find south east Dublin drivers very friendly, west Dublin drivers barely passable, and some northside route drivers have a siege mentality. As a customer I'm always friendly but can understand the position the drivers are in.

Maybe thats down to the fact that drivers on routes going to south east Dublin I assume talking about 46a, 145 etc. have little to no anti social behavior as those routes for the most go through mostly affluent areas.

Stephen15 · 07-06-2017 1:04am

Ok I was thinking of this today. I'm going to stick to talking about buses in my local area. Here so the 145 and the 46a pretty much overlap between Foxrock church and Town on the N11. I was thinking would it be a better idea if the 145 only went as far as Foxrock Church and you increase frequency on the 46a to maybe every 4 minutes turning it into a BRT style operation you could also increase frequency on the 145 to maybe every 6 minutes.

One thing I think needs to be looked at is peak only services such the 46e, 116, 118 etc. how can you rely on such a service if it only comes once or twice a day. I know the argument in favour is but it provides extra capacity on the corridor but would it not make more sense to provide that extra capacity by increasing frequency on existing all day routes?

dfx- · 07-06-2017 2:26am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Maybe thats down to the fact that drivers on routes going to south east Dublin I assume talking about 46a, 145 etc. have little to no anti social behavior as those routes for the most go through mostly affluent areas.

There are a lot more routes in south east Dublin than those two though. The 45A and 7/A notably..

Conyngham Road drivers are excellent in almost all cases (one or two exceptions) in my experience a very friendly garage in all respects. Regular drivers on my Ringsend route are also very good. I find the big garages, Phibsboro, Harristown and Donnybrook, to be least customer friendly unsurprisingly.

murphaph · 07-06-2017 10:33am

Stephen15 wrote: »

If 24 hour services get the go ahead. It might be an idea to deploy security similar to whats on the luas on buses.

To be honest it's gone beyond that. We need dedicated transport police deployed in mobile units around the city to respond quickly to incidents on public transport.

Stephen15 · 07-06-2017 12:31pm

dfx- wrote: »

There are a lot more routes in south east Dublin than those two though. The 45A and 7/A notably.

Yeah I forgot about them they get a bit of anti social behaviour but its nothing compared to routes like the 40.

Bray Head · 07-06-2017 1:52pm

I read all of Bus Connects from start to finish. It is really excellent. Identifies all of the problems with the network's design and has some really good ideas on how to fix them.

The only place where it is slightly lacking is a discussion of depot locations. More orbital routes and better connectivity probably mean moving one or two city centre depots to the M50.

TheChrisD · 07-06-2017 2:45pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Yea, but you're going from a direct service from Dunboyne to town every 60minutes compared to one every 10 minutes, with a change.

Yea, I know that ultimately it's a lot better for level of service. It's just the niggling feeling of an afterthought that we already have a little of out here with the M3 spur already being just a Clonsilla shuttle off-peak.

I do wonder thought if there's even the service demand out here to justify taking the two buses running the regular 70 services and turning them into 270's. As it is, the hourly 270's aren't even that full; and both services do fit into the optimal range on that service performance graph.

Dyr · 07-06-2017 3:17pm

Bray Head wrote: »

I read all of Bus Connects from start to finish. It is really excellent. Identifies all of the problems with the network's design and has some really good ideas on how to fix them.

The only place where it is slightly lacking is a discussion of depot locations. More orbital routes and better connectivity probably mean moving one or two city centre depots to the M50.

Bite the bullet and find a way to put orbital routes on the M50 :eek:

mickmmc · 07-06-2017 7:58pm

Two points on the Jarrett Walker Report:

Dublin Bus operate 11,000 vehicle hours on Weekdays, 7,400 vehicle hours on Saturdays and 4,500 vehicle hours on Sundays. The report refers to the likelihood of suppressed demand on Saturday and Sunday. Weekend services should be enhanced.

Beaumont Hospital: Beaumont Hospital has low bus patronage for the number of employees working in the hospital. The report is critical of the location of the hospital. Beaumont Hospital should be downgraded as it is too close to the Mater. There is no joined up thinking; Finian Mc Grath wants to upgrade the A & E in Beaumont :rolleyes:

LXFlyer · 07-06-2017 8:40pm

mickmmc wrote: »

Two points on the Jarrett Walker Report:

Dublin Bus operate 11,000 vehicle hours on Weekdays, 7,400 vehicle hours on Saturdays and 4,500 vehicle hours on Sundays. The report refers to the likelihood of suppressed demand on Saturday and Sunday. Weekend services should be enhanced.

Beaumont Hospital: Beaumont Hospital has low bus patronage for the number of employees working in the hospital. The report is critical of the location of the hospital. Beaumont Hospital should be downgraded as it is too close to the Mater. There is no joined up thinking; Finian Mc Grath wants to upgrade the A & E in Beaumont :rolleyes:

The two recent timetable changes have seen a large increase in the Sunday service on the 75 (half-hourly now from 11:00 to 23:30 and extended operating hours)and also an increased frequency on the 1 from half-hourly to every 20 minutes between 11:30 and 19:30.

There are some positive developments in the service.

But the Sunday service needs upgrading across the network, with the afternoon frequencies being matched to the off-peak weekday service levels.

hippy_hop · 08-06-2017 1:07pm

interesting point

hippy_hop · 08-06-2017 1:08pm

Interest point about the Bus Depots.
Id imagine developers are licking their lips over certain depots such as Donnybrook, Ringsend and Broadstone.

LXFlyer · 08-06-2017 1:25pm

hippy_hop wrote: »

Interest point about the Bus Depots.
Id imagine developers are licking their lips over certain depots such as Donnybrook, Ringsend and Broadstone.

I'm sure they may well be.

But sometimes you have to accept that certain locations are strategically important in the context of operating a bus service. People forget that buses start at both ends of every route and not just one.

Donnybrook and Broadstone would certainly fall into those categories.

Ringsend provides a suitable terminus location for several routes as opposed to terminating in the city centre.

What certainly should happen is a new depot in the west of the city that can facilitate routes serving the Lucan, Clondalkin and Tallaght areas.

Any new operator of PSO routes will have to provide new garage facilities in any case as DB own all of their own facilities.

hippy_hop · 08-06-2017 1:38pm

I think the depot behind Broadstone depot could be moved to the docklands or port since its used by Bus Eireann.
It would be closer and a better route since it avoids the city center.
Considering its location, transport links and architectual heritage, it would be much better to use the site for high density residential.

The Ringsend depot could also surely be moved a 1.5km further out to Poolbeg on industrial lands.

LXFlyer · 08-06-2017 2:21pm

hippy_hop wrote: »

I think the depot behind Broadstone depot could be moved to the docklands or port since its used by Bus Eireann.
It would be closer and a better route since it avoids the city center.
Considering its location, transport links and architectual heritage, it would be much better to use the site for high density residential.

The Ringsend depot could also surely be moved a 1.5km further out to Poolbeg on industrial lands.

Broadstone/Phibsboro actually contains three depots - 2 Dublin Bus depots and a BE one.

brokenarms · 08-06-2017 2:22pm

Very unlikly any garages will move. They are owned by DB. And are set up to fix and wash buses, with canteens and so on. Moving somthing like that would be out of the question

Although I could see another garage open out in the likes of Grange Castle. In my own opinion that is.

hippy_hop · 08-06-2017 2:30pm

Its such a shame to waste Broadstone station on a bus garage. Its one of the oldest train stations in the world.
I guess a bus garage is considered light industry and based on any kind of modern city planning rational, should be moved further out to docks and ports if possible.
Id imagine Dublin Bus wouldnt mind modern, specifically built garage somewhere also.
Broadstone station is over 150 years old.

monument · 08-06-2017 2:38pm

brokenarms wrote: »

Very unlikly any garages will move. They are owned by DB. And are set up to fix and wash buses, with canteens and so on. Moving somthing like that would be out of the question

Although I could see another garage open out in the likes of Grange Castle. In my own opinion that is.

Why is it out of the question? Lots of the garages are on prime sites which would be better used for housing and the garages moved near to the M50.

LXFlyer · 08-06-2017 2:41pm

monument wrote: »

Why is it out of the question? Lots of the garages are on prime sites which would be better used for housing and the garages moved near to the M50.

Bizarrely enough it is useful having depots at either end of the routes, given that buses start at both ends of bus routes, not just the outer end.

A mix of the two is useful.

Donnybrook in particular is a strategically important element of our transport infrastructure as it provides easy fast access to all of south and southeast Dublin as well as the city centre.

brokenarms · 08-06-2017 2:42pm

monument wrote: »

Why is it out of the question? Lots of the garages are on prime sites which would be better used for housing and the garages moved near to the M50.

If CIE were to sell on property, I think it would come from the 1000 of unused acres that Irish rail have. Not a fully functioning bus depot.

monument · 08-06-2017 2:45pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Broadstone/Phibsboro actually contains three depots - 2 Dublin Bus depots and a BE one.

It really doesn't matter, does it? It's the one site really, or am I wrong?

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm sure they may well be.

But sometimes you have to accept that certain locations are strategically important in the context of operating a bus service. People forget that buses start at both ends of every route and not just one.

Donnybrook and Broadstone would certainly fall into those categories.

Ringsend provides a suitable terminus location for several routes as opposed to terminating in the city centre.

What certainly should happen is a new depot in the west of the city that can facilitate routes serving the Lucan, Clondalkin and Tallaght areas.

Any new operator of PSO routes will have to provide new garage facilities in any case as DB own all of their own facilities.

Many of the locations would act better as new strategic locations for housing.

I'm at a loss as to why Donnybrook and Broadstone can't be replaced by locations further out. Even more so in the context of the review.

LXFlyer · 08-06-2017 3:03pm

monument wrote: »

It really doesn't matter, does it? It's the one site really, or am I wrong?

Many of the locations would act better as new strategic locations for housing.

I'm at a loss as to why Donnybrook and Broadstone can't be replaced by locations further out. Even more so in the context of the review.

I was putting it in context that's all re Broadstone/Phibsboro. It's two separate sites.

Absolutely not regarding Donnybrook - the location is strategic as it allows easy access for buses to both ends of the routes, inner and outer.

Moving it further out means a lot more dead running. Operationally that makes no sense whatsoever.

hippy_hop · 08-06-2017 3:05pm

"Dublin Bus operate seven depots in Clontarf, Conyngham Road, Donnybrook, Harristown, Phibsborough, Ringsend and Summerhill."

So, Dublin Bus has 6 depots in the city center, and another one in Harristown which is out on the M50 by the Airport.

Dublin Bus routes are currently being redesigned and modernised under the BusConnects project.

This will involve a simplified, high frequency network. These routes ( approx 5) will start on one side of the city and end on the other.

Does it make absolute logistical sense to have 6 out of 7 depots in the city center? I really wonder.
Or would it be better to have some others like Harristown at the end of routes.
Maybe keep 2 depots in the city center, 2 on the south side and then 2 on the north side, and then 2 on the west side.
These can be modern and purpose built. The money for these could be raised by selling the city center sites.

Victor · 08-06-2017 3:17pm

lxflyer wrote: »

What certainly should happen is a new depot in the west of the city that can facilitate routes serving the Lucan, Clondalkin and Tallaght areas.

There was talk of a Grange Castle depot, but I don't know how far that went. Planning permission was also applied for short-term bus parking at Docklands Station.

Any new operator of PSO routes will have to provide new garage facilities in any case

Not necessarily. I understand they are entitled to use existing depots under the directive. That said, a new operator isn't forced to use them and might not want to. Alternative, a prospective new operator could be given use of a specific depot.

as DB own all of their own facilities.

Strictly speaking, CIÉ owns the depots and let DB use them for free (I'm not sure what the maintenance / upgrade arrangement is).

LXFlyer · 08-06-2017 3:19pm

It was made very clear Victor last year that new entrants would not be using DB facilities. That was communicated to the unions.

DB/CIE really makes no difference - they're not owned by the NTA.

hippy_hop · 08-06-2017 3:22pm

Maybe develop high density housing at Broadstone Station. Keep the southern depot. Knock Constitution Hill flats and move residents into Broadstone development. Expand southern Depot into flats site. Move Bus Eireann depot to docklands and port which is much closer to Busaras.

Sell Conyngham Road (near Heuston Station), Ringsend and Summerhill and phase out to newly built depots outside city. These are perfect locations for high density residential due to location and planning requirements.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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