UCD or RCSI?

diverboy83 · 10-06-2013 5:37pm

nomoreexams wrote: »

At the moment UCD is my number 1 choice because:

I am slightly worried from looking through graduation photos of ucd's class that everyone seems quite young. I'll be 27 starting the course, not old per se, but I don't want to be the auld one in the class because everyone around me is 21

I'll be 31 starting my course! Would have given anything to have been in Ireland when I was 27 and to have started it back then! I'd be qualified now!

nomoreexams · 10-06-2013 5:41pm

nsa75 wrote: »

I too will take a similar approach to Biologic and avoid taking the bait.......it is quite obvious that there is significant personal undertone to most (if not all) of the posts by iscr above. Some are just compete nonsense, while many make little or no sense at all. I would like to say, however, that posting a private class email on a public forum is far from appropriate - even worse that you placed incorrect context on many of its contents as well as grossly inflated very minor issues contained. Your accusations of ''bullying'' should be channelled through the appropriate college avenues as opposed to posting them (in a confusing and as yet unjustified manner) on a public forum.

That throw-away comment on UL in a previous post should speak volumes in itself to the readers on here.

Having recently completed their GEP programme I can say that I haven't once come across any individual with such deep dissatisfaction for RCSI as an institution or indeed a course. The course is by no means perfect, nor is the admin, but I found it overall to be well structured and balanced over the course of the 4 years. The first two years are probably so well run and looked after that it should be obvious to students that this standard couldn't possibly be maintained when the class size quadruples in 3rd year.

I can only reference other GEP programmes through family/friends but all appear to have their own gripes about the day to day runnings of the course.......this is normal, no?!

It is difficult to post open-endedly on the course as that would take hours really.....happy to field any specific questions or take PM's too.

Did you know of anyone being bullied as ISCR talked about above? I don't mean people having a problem with being at the bottom of the pile again, but actual unjustified bullying. I don't care about being given out to and can take a certain amount of humiliation, no matter what, when you start off at something and you're at the bottom of the pile that's to be expected.

nsa75 · 10-06-2013 5:46pm

I haven't come across the type of ''bullying'' referred to so many times in above posts......none of which have been fleshed out and justified as of yet. Getting some flack/heat from consultants or tutors for poor attendance/grossly inadequate knowledge/poor professionalism/poor attitudes does of course happen and rightly so imo.

If you spend that much time dwelling on how you're being treated as a medical student then it's not only the clinical years you'll struggle with......but perhaps the career itself.

nomoreexams · 10-06-2013 5:54pm

nsa75 wrote: »

I haven't come across the type of ''bullying'' referred to so many many in above posts......no of which have been fleshed out and justified as of yet. Getting some flack/heat from consultants or tutors for poor attendance/grossly inadequate knowledge/poor professionalism/poor attitudes does of course happen and rightly so imo.

If you spend as much time dwelling on how you're being treated as a medical student then it's not only the clinical years you'll struggle with......but perhaps the career itself.

I can't say that would bother me. I wouldn't like to think that I'd be dealing with full blown harassment & bullying but what you're describing sounds reasonable/normal in any course!

Thanks for clearing that up

nomoreexams · 10-06-2013 5:58pm

diverboy83 wrote: »

I'll be 31 starting my course! Would have given anything to have been in Ireland when I was 27 and to have started it back then! I'd be qualified now!

That's what I keep thinking about, if I were 23 when I'd started, I'd be qualified by now. Sounds like the 4 years will fly by though!

diverboy83 · 10-06-2013 6:47pm

I'm not really worried about the age thing tbh. I'd rather take the five years now to get qualified and then spend then next 30 years doing something I feel passionately about.

nomoreexams · 10-06-2013 7:02pm

Agreed! Are you definitely set on UCD now? I'm 60:40 in favour of ucd at the moment. I think that because I went to the UCD open day and not RCSI is swaying me a bit too.

diverboy83 · 10-06-2013 7:13pm

Yes, definitely set on UCD now; just works better for me on almost every front and I think I'll be happier there. You should go out to RCSI in Sandyford/Blanch, if you haven't done so already. The admin ladies out there are lovely. It's a real shame they only have one open day a year.

nomoreexams · 10-06-2013 7:19pm

I went out to sandyford and the security guard showed me around

really need to see the building in town though. I might give them a ring tomorrow!

diverboy83 · 10-06-2013 7:20pm

Do. Though getting the admin people in Stephen's Green is a bit of a dose...

pc11 · 10-06-2013 9:45pm

diverboy83 wrote: »

I'll be 31 starting my course! Would have given anything to have been in Ireland when I was 27 and to have started it back then! I'd be qualified now!

31 is not old, there will be older than that, including me.

I reckon from open days, online and all the rest that no more than 50% will be new grads, the rest will be 24-40 or even older. The biggest group will be around 27-28.

pc11 · 10-06-2013 9:47pm

nomoreexams wrote: »

I went out to sandyford and the security guard showed me around really need to see the building in town though. I might give them a ring tomorrow!

I did the same, he was great. Later I did an official visit and sat in on a 2 hour clinical skills class which was great. All the staff I met in Sandyford were really sound and relaxed. As I've posted here, I was impressed with the visit and I liked the idea of being in a small dedicated facility which you have to yourselves.

I didn't think of visiting Stephen's Green, maybe I should do that too.

I've had mixed dealings with RCSI staff in general, many have been very nice and helpful, others not so much. I rang to ask about fees a few weeks ago and the fees office person was clearly trying to get rid of me, waffled, and passed me on to admissions.

nomoreexams · 10-06-2013 10:18pm

I've had the same experience with the staff: any time I've rang to ask a question, I've always been left a little unsatisfied and end up using boards to find the answer.

etymon · 11-06-2013 12:24pm

The staff are all in Stephen's Green, somewhere GEPs don't see too much of, so it's not surprising they know little about the course. As for fees, sadly it's the banks you need to chat to to get the funding. I wrote the doc2be blog and didn't keep on in 2nd year because I just felt Ireland is too small for writing about potentially identifiable situations, ethically speaking. However if anyone ever wants to PM me about the RCSI course, I am currently between 3rd year and final year and am always happy to answer, or else here on the thread.
From my point of view with bullying etc, it's well known that a few people have had run-ins with consultants or tutors but personally my approach is to suck it up. I've definitely come in contact with doctors who do NOT want to teach or who have 'difficult' approaches to dealing with other members of the public in general (!) but I guess I have never let it get to me. I'm just one in thousands of pesky students they've encountered and if they don't want to teach or if we don't get on, AVOID and find a doctor who is interested in you is the best option.

WoolahUrma · 11-06-2013 12:36pm

etymon wrote: »

The staff are all in Stephen's Green, somewhere GEPs don't see too much of, so it's not surprising they know little about the course. As for fees, sadly it's the banks you need to chat to to get the funding. I wrote the doc2be blog and didn't keep on in 2nd year because I just felt Ireland is too small for writing about potentially identifiable situations, ethically speaking. However if anyone ever wants to PM me about the RCSI course, I am currently between 3rd year and final year and am always happy to answer, or else here on the thread.
From my point of view with bullying etc, it's well known that a few people have had run-ins with consultants or tutors but personally my approach is to suck it up. I've definitely come in contact with doctors who do NOT want to teach or who have 'difficult' approaches to dealing with other members of the public in general (!) but I guess I have never let it get to me. I'm just one in thousands of pesky students they've encountered and if they don't want to teach or if we don't get on, AVOID and find a doctor who is interested in you is the best option.

Pity you stopped the blog, its really well written, entertaining and informative.

Is there anything to the point that in third year things start to get a bit ropey compared to the first two years in rcsi? Are you happy with the rcsi hospitals?

It sounds as though you have to be very proactive when finding the right tutor. Is this not a pain in the arse?

Given the option again would you still have picked rcsi? Do you agree that if you're interested in surgury then go for rsci but if you're interested in any other speciality go to ucd?

Any feedback would be great, we need more info from 3rd/4th years

pc11 · 11-06-2013 1:05pm

nomoreexams wrote: »

I've had the same experience with the staff: any time I've rang to ask a question, I've always been left a little unsatisfied and end up using boards to find the answer.

I had the following conversation with an RCSI staff member who shall remain nameless:

I mentioned the uncertainty about getting bank loans, and how UB/UL loans were pretty easy to get but BOI loans for UCD/RCSI were less certain, and how that meant I was uncertain which collge to apply for.

She said 'surely you don't intend to choose a college based on money?!'

I was taken aback. Of course getting the money is a fundamental criteria. The best college in the world is no good if I can't pay the fees. I felt like she didn't understand where we were coming from at all.

I just said "ideally I'd like to decide not based on money but that may not always be possible." I was left feeling as if I was silly and inadequate that I didn't have unlimited funds. But, feck 'em, I won't let that put me off deciding on RCSI.

As I say, all the Sandyford staff were great.

nomoreexams · 11-06-2013 4:40pm

I got a similar reaction. Of course money plays a massive part in the decision! At the moment it's my biggest concern. I'm terrified of being rejected for a loan after putting in the effort for the gamsat. I'd love a justifiable reason for the extra cost of RCSI though.

etymon · 11-06-2013 6:45pm

WoolahUrma wrote: »

Pity you stopped the blog, its really well written, entertaining and informative.

Is there anything to the point that in third year things start to get a bit ropey compared to the first two years in rcsi? Are you happy with the rcsi hospitals?

It sounds as though you have to be very proactive when finding the right tutor. Is this not a pain in the arse?

Given the option again would you still have picked rcsi? Do you agree that if you're interested in surgury then go for rsci but if you're interested in any other speciality go to ucd?

Any feedback would be great, we need more info from 3rd/4th years

Hey, I would love to be talented enough to answer everything in turn but I have no idea what cybercode I need to do that!

Re: ropiness - no, 3rd year is a breeze compared to the first two years. The poor little undergrads who've been going to Dicey's and eating gelato in Stephen's Green for three years have no idea what's hit them but we found it great in terms of workload. Certain rotations - GP, Med/Surg are extremely light on work and if you get them around Christmas (mine were sandwiched around it) you have a nice extended winter break. The hospitals are great - you aren't in Beaumont in third GEP/fourth med so it's mainly peripheral (Kilkenny, Drogheda etc.) where you are given a lot of leeway in terms of how much you want to get involved but there is great teaching to be had if you do get stuck in. I was happy with all my hospitals for sure, but next year is mainly Beaumont so check back with me then (I have a feeling already I won't be applying for intern year there, if only because of the hideous decor).

Yeah you need to be proactive seeking out teaching sometimes, you can usually spot the best doctor on a team to harass, there's nearly always a kindly reg who likes to talk to students and if you put yourself out there you can learn stuff. Sometimes you can't pick your tutor, e.g. in Psych and Paeds you get given them but I found my Psych tutor fantastic, she really loved teaching, and wasn't mad about my Paeds ones so went off to clinics in Crumlin myself and asked consultants could I sit in. The ones who like students say 'sure!' and it's a pleasure to go. The ones who hate students grunt and disappear so that's that problem solved.

I would definitely have picked RCSI again but that's just me.

Some of you are asking about money's worth; well it's like today when I dropped a bomb in New Look on the oul' credit card, I'm 100k in debt, 105k ain't gonna matter, if you're looking at a 20k difference maybe then factor that in.

Dunno anything about surgery as I have successfully avoided it since Day 1 apart from an ill-advised circumcision performed under duress which I hope I never have to repeat (and I suspect the foreskins of Ireland agree); I reckon each hospital has its surgical bigwigs and you can schmooze any of them you like. I think if you had an idea you might like neurosurgery, pick RCSI for Beaumont; if cardiothoracic, pick UCD for Mater etc. but who the hell goes into college knowing they want to do something that specialized?!

In short - I would urge anyone who has the funds and the GAMSAT score to pick RCSI for sure. I am sure, however, that if you pick UCD you'd be very happy with your choice.

WoolahUrma · 12-06-2013 10:24am

etymon wrote: »

Hey, I would love to be talented enough to answer everything in turn but I have no idea what cybercode I need to do that!

Re: ropiness - no, 3rd year is a breeze compared to the first two years. The poor little undergrads who've been going to Dicey's and eating gelato in Stephen's Green for three years have no idea what's hit them but we found it great in terms of workload. Certain rotations - GP, Med/Surg are extremely light on work and if you get them around Christmas (mine were sandwiched around it) you have a nice extended winter break. The hospitals are great - you aren't in Beaumont in third GEP/fourth med so it's mainly peripheral (Kilkenny, Drogheda etc.) where you are given a lot of leeway in terms of how much you want to get involved but there is great teaching to be had if you do get stuck in. I was happy with all my hospitals for sure, but next year is mainly Beaumont so check back with me then (I have a feeling already I won't be applying for intern year there, if only because of the hideous decor).

Yeah you need to be proactive seeking out teaching sometimes, you can usually spot the best doctor on a team to harass, there's nearly always a kindly reg who likes to talk to students and if you put yourself out there you can learn stuff. Sometimes you can't pick your tutor, e.g. in Psych and Paeds you get given them but I found my Psych tutor fantastic, she really loved teaching, and wasn't mad about my Paeds ones so went off to clinics in Crumlin myself and asked consultants could I sit in. The ones who like students say 'sure!' and it's a pleasure to go. The ones who hate students grunt and disappear so that's that problem solved.

I would definitely have picked RCSI again but that's just me.

Some of you are asking about money's worth; well it's like today when I dropped a bomb in New Look on the oul' credit card, I'm 100k in debt, 105k ain't gonna matter, if you're looking at a 20k difference maybe then factor that in.

Dunno anything about surgery as I have successfully avoided it since Day 1 apart from an ill-advised circumcision performed under duress which I hope I never have to repeat (and I suspect the foreskins of Ireland agree); I reckon each hospital has its surgical bigwigs and you can schmooze any of them you like. I think if you had an idea you might like neurosurgery, pick RCSI for Beaumont; if cardiothoracic, pick UCD for Mater etc. but who the hell goes into college knowing they want to do something that specialized?!

In short - I would urge anyone who has the funds and the GAMSAT score to pick RCSI for sure. I am sure, however, that if you pick UCD you'd be very happy with your choice.

Well there you have it, rcsi come back swinging!

There is a preference on this thread/ forum for ucd so its useful to get another perspective.

The workload in rcsi in years one and two sound like a dose but then again if it eases the pain in 3 and 4 (when you need to be doing your business) it might be worth the pain.

I underestimated the amount of proactive learning that's going to be required. I assumed that it would be like, ok, here dr. surgeon and he will show you how to do that etc.

I'm guessing that it's going to be a learn as you go situation. You get to know the system and the people in it, then you try to get what you need from it.

Can you tell me what you thought of your classmates? Also, was the travel a pain? Into stephens, back out to sandyford

What about connolly?

Thanks again for the effort

pc11 · 12-06-2013 11:11am

Could some people from either UCD or RCSi write up a little about their 3/4th years? Even just an outline of the year, where they were, what rotations, and how it went would be great.

How did you find the different rotations? What did you like/dislike? How did you find the various hospitals? Did you feel like it was crazy and overwhelming or did you actually manage pretty well?

Anything really!

iscr · 12-06-2013 3:10pm

That whole issue of RCSI bullying- You know not the hour or the day when it can happen. It's random.Saw a guy this year pounced upon while making a simple powerpoint presentation, physically manhandled and totally humiliated in front of his peers. He was in complete shock as were the rest of us. I've seen incidences on the streets of dublin that were less frightening. Then, you have very nice guys who treat you well and it's easy to learn from them. Maybe the bullying is an Irish Doctor thing ? Do these kind of these kind of things happen in UCD or are there limits imposed on the behaviour of those who train student doctors?

WoolahUrma · 12-06-2013 3:22pm

iscr wrote: »

That whole issue of RCSI bullying- You know not the hour or the day when it can happen. It's random.Saw a guy this year pounced upon while making a simple powerpoint presentation, physically manhandled and totally humiliated in front of his peers. He was in complete shock as were the rest of us. I've seen incidences on the streets of dublin that were less frightening. Then, you have very nice guys who treat you well and it's easy to learn from them. Maybe the bullying is an Irish Doctor thing ? Do these kind of these kind of things happen in UCD or are there limits imposed on the behaviour of those who train student doctors?

hey, thanks for posting on this thread.

What your describing here sounds implausible if it is to be taken literally.

Can you give a bit of context to what you've written about. A guy was attacked while giving a presentation by a doctor? What was at the root of it?

Im finding it hard to square off what your experience of rcsi has been with some of the other posts I've read. Others posting on the topic of bullying have mentioned that there are some doctors to avoid and after that they have plenty of positive things to say about the tutors.

Biologic · 12-06-2013 3:53pm

pc11 wrote: »

Could some people from either UCD or RCSi write up a little about their 3/4th years? Even just an outline of the year, where they were, what rotations, and how it went would be great.

How did you find the different rotations? What did you like/dislike? How did you find the various hospitals? Did you feel like it was crazy and overwhelming or did you actually manage pretty well?

Anything really!

I'll try put something together over the next week or so. I'm pretty busy with the USMLE at the moment.

etymon · 12-06-2013 4:01pm

WoolahUrma wrote: »

Can you tell me what you thought of your classmates? Also, was the travel a pain? Into stephens, back out to sandyford

What about connolly?

Thanks again for the effort

Classmates great, a mixed bunch, you will find your mates by the middle of GEP 2 but everyone generally still socialises together at big nights out, though less so during 3rd GEP as we are all over the country and split up on rotation. I get on with most and the one or two I'm a bit averse too (and i am sure the feeling's mutual!), well, that's life, grin and bear it!
Travel grand as I lived in town so Luas to Sandyford every day and sure anatomy is the last class on a Monday or Tuesday so Stephen's Green is on your way home if you live northbound. Really if you live on the northside of town in 3rd GEP you're grand as you're near town, Beaumont, Drogheda and buses or trains elsewhere from Busaras or Heuston. A lot of us lived in Blanch for GEP2 as it was so handy for Connolly and twas great craic! (One year was enough though!). Connolly is lovely, small and quiet and you have your own building, pretty much the same as Sandyford, we all loved GEP2 in terms of our little house. Some people who stayed in town drove, got the commuter train or bus and found that grand. We all still socialised in town most weekends. Thought 'Light', the nightclub in Blanch Shopping Centre, is worth visiting (once, en masse).

etymon · 12-06-2013 4:03pm

iscr wrote: »

That whole issue of RCSI bullying- You know not the hour or the day when it can happen. It's random.Saw a guy this year pounced upon while making a simple powerpoint presentation, physically manhandled and totally humiliated in front of his peers. He was in complete shock as were the rest of us. I've seen incidences on the streets of dublin that were less frightening. Then, you have very nice guys who treat you well and it's easy to learn from them. Maybe the bullying is an Irish Doctor thing ? Do these kind of these kind of things happen in UCD or are there limits imposed on the behaviour of those who train student doctors?

I too want to know about this! Are you in my class ISCR? PM me with the goss! ;-)

pc11 · 12-06-2013 4:56pm

Some practical questions for whoever can answer:

In UCD, when you are in the Mater or Vincents, is there any kind of space or building dedicated to GEM or med students? I know RCSI has a dedicated building in Blanchardstown so I was wondering. If not, where do UCD students base themselves in the hospital? Do they have anywhere? Somewhere with lockers, study space, a lounge or a kitchen etc?
In RCSI Sandyford, is there are anywhere to take a shower? It would be handy for cycling and so on. Obviously UCD has the sports centre beside the med building so that's no problem.
Does RCSI charge for printing/photocopying? UCD certainly did when I was there so I'm sure they still do.

Ta in advance.

pc11 · 12-06-2013 5:02pm

In trying to gauge UCD vs RCSI I thought it would be helpful (for me at least) to outline the basic course structures to compare them. I know for me I was interested in the timing and structure of the years and how much holidays and so on are involved.

I've taken the below from open days, websites and phone calls. Corrections and additions are welcome.

Can people add details for Year 3/4 if they know?

UCD YEAR 1

Orientation: week of September 2nd
Classes begin Sept 9th.
Classes straight through with no break before December
Exams before Xmas
Classes resume Jan 20th
Summer break: around 14 weeks weeks (very long), no hospital placement
Based in Belfield mostly, some hospital visits

UCD YEAR 2

Begins September 8th, 2014
Similar to year 1
exams before Xmas
I'm unsure about how long summer holiday is after Year 2 - anyone know? Do we have hospital placement?

RCSI YEAR 1

Begin September 9th
Classes for 6 weeks, then 1 week break
Classes again until Xmas
Exams after Xmas in mid-January then 2 week break
Exams in May, then off for June/July (only around 8 weeks)
Hospital placement in August
Based in Sandyford mostly, 2 afternoons in Stephens Green, some visits to Beaumont

RCSI YEAR 2

Begins early Sept
Exams before Xmas
In hospital for January
Exams in May
In hospital for June, Summer holiday ~8 weeks
Based in Blanchardstown all year
3 months summer holiday after year 2

RCSI YEAR 3

Begins early Sept
5 x six weeks of Paeds, Psych, OB/GYN, GP and med/surg each in turn
3 months summer holiday after year 3

nomoreexams · 12-06-2013 5:13pm

RCSI Sandyford deffo has a shower, I asked when I went out to see the place.

etymon · 12-06-2013 5:27pm

pc11 wrote: »

RCSI YEAR 1
Begin September 9th

Classes for 6 weeks, then 1 week break

Classes again until Xmas

Exams after Xmas in mid-January then 2 week break

Exams in May, then off for June/July (only around 8 weeks)

Hospital placement in August

Based in Sandyford mostly, 2 afternoons in Stephens Green, some visits to Beaumont

RCSI YEAR 2
Begins early Sept

Exams before Xmas

In hospital for January

Exams in May

In hospital for June, Summer holiday ~8 weeks

Based in Blanchardstown all year

Yep. Though we never got a mid-term break in GEP1.

By the way, are you guys aware over 23s in fulltime education can sign on the dole for the summer?

Flange/Flanders · 12-06-2013 7:52pm

etymon wrote: »

Yep. Though we never got a mid-term break in GEP1.

By the way, are you guys aware over 23s in fulltime education can sign on the dole for the summer?

Really?!! Thats brilliant, I was envisaging a summer of being broke (as well as 9 months of college broke each year

)

pc11 · 12-06-2013 9:15pm

etymon wrote: »

Yep. Though we never got a mid-term break in GEP1.

By the way, are you guys aware over 23s in fulltime education can sign on the dole for the summer?

You didn't get a break? How so? Has the year structure changed or did they make you work through the break? RCSI confirmed the 1 week off in October.

What was your year 3 outline like?

Are you serious about the dole?? I had no idea! (EDIT: not to doubt you, but can you provide a link to read more about this? I have never seen it mentioned anywhere)

I've been enjoying your blog, by the way.

EDIT #2: Apparenty the dole thing might be true! See http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Jobseekers-Allowance.aspx Do CTRL-F for 'mature'
I'm stunned, it never occurred to me.

etymon · 13-06-2013 9:07am

pc11 wrote: »

You didn't get a break? How so? Has the year structure changed or did they make you work through the break? RCSI confirmed the 1 week off in October.

What was your year 3 outline like?

Are you serious about the dole?? I had no idea! (EDIT: not to doubt you, but can you provide a link to read more about this? I have never seen it mentioned anywhere)

I've been enjoying your blog, by the way.

EDIT #2: Apparenty the dole thing might be true! See http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Jobseekers-Allowance.aspx Do CTRL-F for 'mature'
I'm stunned, it never occurred to me.

Tis true, I got approved for it within a week and have already been 'paid'. I worked the other summers but it's good to know it's there if you need it.

Year 3 is six weeks of Paeds, Psych, OB/GYN, GP and med/surg each in turn. Year 4 is all med/surg with a few weeks of ophthalmology and ENT.

We didn't get a midterm break before Christmas in GEP1 but I know they've made some changes so I am sure whatever info you have is legit. GEP1 is basically hardcore but I loved it, it's great craic, it flies by, don't worry too much about a week's holidays here or there because in the grand scheme of things it's only a year. Holidays after GEP2 and GEP3 are good - we now have three months off, absolutely nowt to do.

I was only saying to a fellow boards.ie member the other day how it seems like yesterday we met up before starting GEP1.

With the greatest of respect, as I know you guys are excited and anxious and wondering all the same things i wondered before I started, don't get yourselves hung up on all these little details. Wherever you end up, you will enjoy. You will not get through the four years without some gripe at the management or the facilities. You will have at least one argument with a classmate; well one sober one and at least five drunken ones. You will absolutely despise some rotations despite good teaching and love others despite dodgy teaching. All the colleges spit out a doctor at the end and if you think your consultant in intern year is gonna be bothered about where you got your degree or how well you did in the class you're wrong - s/he just wants to know that you can stick cannulas in people and chase up Xrays etc.

pc11 · 13-06-2013 9:41am

iscr wrote: »

That whole issue of RCSI bullying- You know not the hour or the day when it can happen. It's random.Saw a guy this year pounced upon while making a simple powerpoint presentation, physically manhandled and totally humiliated in front of his peers. He was in complete shock as were the rest of us. I've seen incidences on the streets of dublin that were less frightening. Then, you have very nice guys who treat you well and it's easy to learn from them. Maybe the bullying is an Irish Doctor thing ? Do these kind of these kind of things happen in UCD or are there limits imposed on the behaviour of those who train student doctors?

ISCR, can you expand on this? What exactly happened? Was there any follow-up afterwards?

pc11 · 13-06-2013 9:47am

etymon wrote: »

Tis true, I got approved for it within a week and have already been 'paid'. I worked the other summers but it's good to know it's there if you need it.

Nice one. Do you know if the month in hospital in Summer 1 would be allowed for dole?

etymon wrote: »

Year 3 is six weeks of Paeds, Psych, OB/GYN, GP and med/surg each in turn. Year 4 is all med/surg with a few weeks of ophthalmology and ENT.

Where did you end up for these rotations? What were the hospitals like? It was posted here that Beaumont was rough for studying and the peripheral hospitals were better - any thoughts?

etymon wrote: »

Holidays after GEP2 and GEP3 are good - we now have three months off, absolutely nowt to do.

Ah, so no hospital time in the summer after Year 2 and 3? That's good to know and I've added it to my post above. Have you thought of getting a summer placement in a developing country or the US? Do many do this?

etymon wrote: »

With the greatest of respect, as I know you guys are excited and anxious and wondering all the same things i wondered before I started, don't get yourselves hung up on all these little details. Wherever you end up, you will enjoy. You will not get through the four years without some gripe at the management or the facilities. You will have at least one argument with a classmate; well one sober one and at least five drunken ones. You will absolutely despise some rotations despite good teaching and love others despite dodgy teaching. All the colleges spit out a doctor at the end and if you think your consultant in intern year is gonna be bothered about where you got your degree or how well you did in the class you're wrong - s/he just wants to know that you can stick cannulas in people and chase up Xrays etc.

Point taken.

Thank you.

letsdothis · 13-06-2013 9:58am

pc11 wrote: »

Nice one. Do you know if the month in hospital in Summer 1 would be allowed for dole?

I would sincerely doubt it. You wouldn't been "available for and genuinely seeking work". DSP are now applying this condition even more stringently that in years gone by.

pc11 · 13-06-2013 10:29am

letsdothis wrote: »

I would sincerely doubt it. You wouldn't been "available for and genuinely seeking work". DSP are now applying this condition even more stringently that in years gone by.

Fair enough. In practice, do you think they know about the specifics of courses like this?

BobbyOLGrinds · 13-06-2013 11:33am

pc11 wrote: »

Could some people from either UCD or RCSi write up a little about their 3/4th years? Even just an outline of the year, where they were, what rotations, and how it went would be great.

How did you find the different rotations? What did you like/dislike? How did you find the various hospitals? Did you feel like it was crazy and overwhelming or did you actually manage pretty well?

Anything really!

I'm in a bit of a rush today with errands, but I'll try my best to give a quick once over here from a UCD point of view. I've just finished the course, and have received my job offer for the coming year.

Year 3 and 4 are busy years. Much busier and much harder than 1 and 2. You'll be stressed out in first and second year but you'll look back and realise it was all your own doing and that you should have relaxed more. C'est la vie, and I understand that it's easy for me to say that now, given my position.

Semester 1 - Res Year - Approx 13 weeks

Six weeks surgery
Six weeks medicine
Surgical Short Paper
Medicine MCQ
Medicine OSCE

Year 3 is known as Res year in UCD, and I assume elsewhere too. You're completely integrated with the undergraduates, with the whole year being known as Res year. I went to SVUH, so I won't be able to give you the Mater perspective. You're placed in hospital for 12 weeks, split into 6 week blocks of medicine and surgery. Depending on the team you're on, and how strict they are about students coming to rounds, you'll be in from anywhere from 6:30am to 9am. Typically you'll go on rounds, be ignored, and then filter back to the res room for tea. On surgery you change week to week, medicine every 3 weeks. They've removed gynaecology and replaced it with ENT as far as I know this year, but don't quote me on that. This is probably better, you learn more than enough gynae on your specific rotations.

I meant to add here that you'll spend one week in a peripheral hospital on surgery (I was in Tullamore), and three weeks on medicine (I went to Wexford).

After the 12 weeks you have the surgery short paper, the medicine 1 MCQ and the medicine OSCEs. The surgery paper is fine, as is the med MCQ. The OSCE can be a pain in the neck but if you practice, you'll be fine.

Semester 1b - Res Year - 3 weeks

Forensic and legal medicine is 3 weeks off before Christmas. The gradescale is ridiculous, something like 97% is an A+. I don't think the medal was awarded in our year as none of us did well enough. It's simple enough to do fine on though, and with everyone getting a C or C+, it doesn't affect your centile mark too badly. It's all delivered through lectures, which are published on blackboard so even attending isn't that necessary. Overall a very relaxing 3 weeks, I spent most of this in CFJ.

Semester 2 - Res Year - Approx 13 weeks

9 weeks medicine/surgery
1 week trauma/ortho
1 week radiology
1 week anaesthetics
Medical written paper
Surgery MCQ
Surgery OSCE

Back to hospital in January you do Medicine II and continue surgery. Medicine II is based more around data interpretation and emergency management. In my opinion it's simpler than Medicine I, but your mileage may vary. You get 1 week stints in radiology, trauma/ortho, and anaesthetics. They're good fun weeks and you do learn quite a lot on them. They did vary week to week though depending on staff availability.

The exams at the end are medicine written paper, surgical MCQ, and surgical OSCE. The surgical paper was hilarious, I did quite well but for the life of me I can't figure out how.

Semester 2b - Res Year - 12 weeks

6 weeks paeds
AND
6 weeks obs
OR
6 weeks GP
AND
6 weeks Psych

After this you go onto either Obs/Paeds or GP/Psych. You get to put a preference down but you get whatever the college say. I got Obs/Paeds. They're six weeks long each and are very intensive. You'll have thought that Med/Surg was tough, but when you're presenting your first ante-natal history you'll know what I mean. The exam format has changed since I did it, I think now all the exams are at the end of the 12 week block, instead of at six weeks. I'm on the fence as to which is easier, though with both these modules you are so well prepared, you'll do fine. Obs has a 96% pass rate in UCD, or at least it did when I was there. This compares to 60-70% elsewhere. This isn't to say UCD has an easy course, quite the opposite really, but you are very well taught with Obstetrics being renown as the best organised course in the entire medical school.

Semester 3 - Res year - 3/6 weeks

This is time for your medical/surgical/paediatric/whatever elective. You organise it yourself though the college are helpful if you're stuck. Typically you sweet talk a consultant into letting you on his/her service for a few weeks. By and large they're delighted to have students, especially in the less popular disciplines. I did mine in plastic surgery and absolutely loved it. I got plenty of practical exposure and learnt a few skills that I've used since. Your mileage may vary of course.

Hopefully that's more legible now. I'll have a go at year 4 later on tonight. Best of luck folks with the offers.

letsdothis · 13-06-2013 12:12pm

pc11 wrote: »

Fair enough. In practice, do you think they know about the specifics of courses like this?

I couldn't say for sure but there has been a massive crack down on social welfare fraud in the last two years or so and I wouldn't be surprised if they contacted the college to see if you are genuinely available to work. If you are on placement it doesn't differ from being in a classroom, does it?

Haven't said that, based on a very conservative estimation of you not getting any work for the summers and being off for 8 weeks over three summers, you're talking about not far off €5,000 income that you weren't counting on yesterday!

pc11 · 13-06-2013 12:25pm

letsdothis wrote: »

I couldn't say for sure but there has been a massive crack down on social welfare fraud in the last two years or so and I wouldn't be surprised if they contacted the college to see if you are genuinely available to work. If you are on placement it doesn't differ from being in a classroom, does it?

Yeah, you're probably right. One thing is if you had thoughts of spending a summer abroad, presumably the dole is out for that summer.

letsdothis wrote: »

Haven't said that, based on a very conservative estimation of you not getting any work for the summers and being off for 8 weeks over three summers, you're talking about not far off €5,000 income that you weren't counting on yesterday!

Absolutely. I have a pretty detailed spreadsheet with various budget scenarios for 4 years, and this will make quite a difference. If I choose UCD with 15 week summers, finding work is quite viable. But, if I'm in RCSI with only 7-8 weeks off, it's almost impossible to find work, or at least any decent paying work, so this could be a real help. In fact, it pretty much fills my budget gap. It also relieves the emotional pressure of HAVING to find work.

Also, it might in fact be 4 summers as we will have a gap of a couple of months from finishing 4th year to finding an intern job, so even better!

WoolahUrma · 13-06-2013 12:38pm

BobbyOLGrinds wrote: »

I'm in a bit of a rush today with errands, but I'll try my best to give a quick once over here from a UCD point of view. I've just finished the course, and have received my job offer for the coming year.

Year 3 and 4 are busy years. Much busier and much harder than 1 and 2. You'll be stressed out in first and second year but you'll look back and realise it was all your own doing and that you should have relaxed more. C'est la vie, and I understand that it's easy for me to say that now, given my position.

Year 3 is known as Res year in UCD, and I assume elsewhere too. You're completely integrated with the undergraduates, with the whole year being known as Res year. I went to SVUH, so I won't be able to give you the Mater perspective. You're placed in hospital for 12 weeks, split into 6 week blocks of medicine and surgery. Depending on the team you're on, and how strict they are about students coming to rounds, you'll be in from anywhere from 6:30am to 9am. Typically you'll go on rounds, be ignored, and then filter back to the res room for tea. On surgery you change week to week, medicine every 3 weeks. They've removed gynaecology and replaced it with ENT as far as I know this year, but don't quote me on that. This is probably better, you learn more than enough gynae on your specific rotations.

After the 12 weeks you have the surgery short paper, the medicine 1 MCQ and the medicine OSCEs. The surgery paper is fine, as is the med MCQ. The OSCE can be a pain in the neck but if you practice, you'll be fine.

Forensic and legal medicine is 3 weeks off before Christmas. The gradescale is ridiculous, something like 97% is an A+. I don't think the medal was awarded in our year as none of us did well enough. It's simple enough to do fine on though, and with everyone getting a C or C+, it doesn't affect your centile mark too badly.

Back to hospital in January you do Medicine II and continue surgery. Medicine II is based more around data interpretation and emergency management. In my opinion it's simpler than Medicine I, but your mileage may vary. The exams at the end are medicine written paper, surgical MCQ, and surgical OSCE. The surgical paper was hilarious, I did quite well but for the life of me I can't figure out how.

After this you go onto either Obs/Paeds or GP/Psych. You get to put a preference down but you get whatever the college say. I got Obs/Paeds. They're six weeks long each and are very intensive. You'll have thought that Med/Surg was tough, but when you're presenting your first ante-natal history you'll know what I mean. The exam format has changed since I did it, I think now all the exams are at the end of the 12 week block, instead of at six weeks. I'm on the fence as to which is easier, though with both these modules you are so well prepared, you'll do fine. Obs has a 96% pass rate in UCD, or at least it did when I was there. This compares to 60-70% elsewhere. This isn't to say UCD has an easy course, quite the opposite really, but you are very well taught with Obstetrics being renown as the best organised course in the entire medical school.

That's all I've got for now. I apologise for the rambling nature of it! I'll come back later and format it into something a bit more legible. Best of luck folks with the offers.

Thanks for the info,

One big difference between rcsi and ucd seems to be that a lot of work is front ended in rcsi, so the first year in particular is tough going but when you hit year three, youll be well conditioned to it.

How exactly does it work with the hospital placement? Is it the case that you're told what you need to know, then you're given a team to work with and then it's your responsibility to figure out what's up?

etymon · 13-06-2013 12:39pm

Re dole - don't see why any summer would be excluded - you just need to be available and seeking fulltime work. No fraud involved if you're over 23 and in fulltime education. There aren't any lies to tell or any dodginess - you are entitled to it. Maybe not if you were cohabiting with someone with a fulltime job but that's just to satisfy means test all JSA applicants need to satisfy anyway. Mine consisted of AIB loan as means which was no problem. It's not a matter of any department 'cracking down' on anything because you are entitled to it. Of course, you'd have to gamble on that not changing in future Budgets but as you're a finite liability i.e. maximum one summer it's granted quite quickly.

I was in Drogheda, Galway Clinic and Kilkenny for rotations, others were in Cavan, Navan, Waterford (now a Cork Uni hospital) and Mullingar. No issues at all. Accomodation is variable but you are in a B&B with others in your class and it's generally a bit of craic. You always have your own room and mostly ensuite. Have never 'studied' in Beaumont, will be next year, the library is refurbished and quite nice there. Any rotation I did there was the usual Dublin hospital story - everyone is mad busy and you need to put yourself out to get to sit in on things. Generally if you show an interest you'll get experience is the rule. All the teams have journal clubs and teaching sessions with free food you can tag along to also.

Lots of people do electives and stuff but I'm taking this summer off and really enjoying it. It's really up to you what you do with your summers. I got work last few summers but didn't get any this summer.

letsdothis · 13-06-2013 12:40pm

pc11 wrote: »

Also, it might in fact be 4 summers as we will have a gap of a couple of months from finishing 4th year to finding an intern job, so even better!

True, I left out the after 4th year bit just to paint the bleakest possible income level!

pc11 wrote: »

If I choose UCD with 15 week summers, finding work is quite viable. But, if I'm in RCSI with only 7-8 weeks off, it's almost impossible to find work, or at least any decent paying work, so this could be a real help. In fact, it pretty much fills my budget gap. It also relieves the emotional pressure of HAVING to find work.

Not alone is it 15 weeks in UCD to work, considering this is the only real form of government assistance available to mature graduate entrants (I'm sure this covers the vast majority of graduate entrants too), you could just count it as 15 weeks x €180-odd. If the difference in summer breaks is this much between UCD and RCSI, you really are talking about adding an extra €1,000 minimum onto the cost of the RCSI education per year.

Actually, I would also imagine that independent mature students would also be eligible for secondary benefits such as medical cards. Has anybody tried applying for Rent Supplement? I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't be eligible.

All of this is purely academic for me, unfortunately, as I would be classed as dependent on my partner. The most I could get is Job Seekers Benefit for the 1st and possibly the 2nd summer.

WoolahUrma · 13-06-2013 12:42pm

pc11 wrote: »

Yeah, you're probably right. One thing is if you had thoughts of spending a summer abroad, presumably the dole is out for that summer.

Absolutely. I have a pretty detailed spreadsheet with various budget scenarios for 4 years, and this will make quite a difference. If I choose UCD with 15 week summers, finding work is quite viable. But, if I'm in RCSI with only 7-8 weeks off, it's almost impossible to find work, or at least any decent paying work, so this could be a real help. In fact, it pretty much fills my budget gap. It also relieves the emotional pressure of HAVING to find work.

Also, it might in fact be 4 summers as we will have a gap of a couple of months from finishing 4th year to finding an intern job, so even better!

Is the intern job not a dead cert? I was under the impression that you'll have an internship nailed down once you don't finish in the bottom few places in your group?

letsdothis · 13-06-2013 12:47pm

etymon wrote: »

Re dole - don't see why any summer would be excluded - you just need to be available and seeking fulltime work. No fraud involved if you're over 23 and in fulltime education. There aren't any lies to tell or any dodginess - you are entitled to it. Maybe not if you were cohabiting with someone with a fulltime job but that's just to satisfy means test all JSA applicants need to satisfy anyway. Mine consisted of AIB loan as means which was no problem. It's not a matter of any department 'cracking down' on anything because you are entitled to it.

If you are on full-time placement for four weeks of the summer, you are not available for work during those weeks. If the placement was part-time, you could get the dole part-time. Of course, if they don't know about the placement, they don't know about the placement

pc11 · 13-06-2013 1:58pm

WoolahUrma wrote: »

Is the intern job not a dead cert? I was under the impression that you'll have an internship nailed down once you don't finish in the bottom few places in your group?

I gather it's fairly assured alright, but there will be a gap between finishing college and actually starting to work as an intern, so it may be possible to get a few weeks on the dole then too.

pc11 · 13-06-2013 2:02pm

letsdothis wrote: »

Not alone is it 15 weeks in UCD to work, considering this is the only real form of government assistance available to mature graduate entrants (I'm sure this covers the vast majority of graduate entrants too), you could just count it as 15 weeks x €180-odd. If the difference in summer breaks is this much between UCD and RCSI, you really are talking about adding an extra €1,000 minimum onto the cost of the RCSI education per year.

Yes, I was saying here before about the opportunity cost of studying in RCSI. Apart from the higher fees, the shorter first summer cuts into working time, so the net extra cost is even greater. But, then you should take into account the catering, free tea/coffee (that adds up!) and the 'free' laptop which you can sell or whatever, all in RCSI.

letsdothis wrote: »

All of this is purely academic for me, unfortunately, as I would be classed as dependent on my partner. The most I could get is Job Seekers Benefit for the 1st and possibly the 2nd summer.

Do you know how they work it with with being dependent? Why do you say only 1st and 2nd summer, why not 3rd?

letsdothis · 13-06-2013 2:22pm

pc11 wrote: »

Do you know how they work it with with being dependent? Why do you say only 1st and 2nd summer, why not 3rd?

Job Seekers Benefit is a non-means tested payment and so dependancy doesn't come into it. For eligibility, you need 39 (I think) PRSI contributions in the relevant tax year, which is usually two years ago (so, currently 2011 is the relevant year). Therefore, if you have 39 PRSI contributions in 2012, you will be eligible for JB next summer. However, in the summer of 2015, you are unlikely to have made 39 contributions in the relevant tax year (2013) because of starting college in late Aug/early Sept. Therefore, the relevant payment is Jobseekers Allowance, which is means tested. Dependency is usually classed as your parents if you are under 23 or somebody that you are cohabitating with i.e. boyfriend, girlfriend, parent or spouse or your parents if you live with them. In this case, your JA payment would be means tested against their income.

pc11 · 13-06-2013 3:35pm

letsdothis wrote: »

Job Seekers Benefit is a non-means tested payment and so dependancy doesn't come into it. For eligibility, you need 39 (I think) PRSI contributions in the relevant tax year, which is usually two years ago (so, currently 2011 is the relevant year). Therefore, if you have 39 PRSI contributions in 2012, you will be eligible for JB next summer. However, in the summer of 2015, you are unlikely to have made 39 contributions in the relevant tax year (2013) because of starting college in late Aug/early Sept. Therefore, the relevant payment is Jobseekers Allowance, which is means tested. Dependency is usually classed as your parents if you are under 23 or somebody that you are cohabitating with i.e. boyfriend, girlfriend, parent or spouse or your parents if you live with them. In this case, your JA payment would be means tested against their income.

Ah, thanks. This is all new to me. So, I need to try to work 39 weeks this year to give myself eligibility in Summer 2015, which could be a problem as week 39 this year seems to be the week ending Sept 27th. I am hoping to have some holidays when I leave work so it may just get me to that.

Actually, hold on. I just read this: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html#l1f4da

It seems like there are other ways to make up the eligibility via several different years?

letsdothis · 13-06-2013 3:38pm

pc11 wrote: »

Ah, thanks. This is all new to me. So, I need to try to work 39 weeks this year to give myself eligibility in Summer 2015, which could be a problem as week 39 this year seems to be the week ending Sept 27th. I am hoping to have some holidays when I leave work so it may just get me to that.

Actually, hold on. I just read this: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html#l1f4da

It seems like there are other ways to make up the eligibility via several different years?

Ah, I knew there was something else. Well that basically covers you for JB for summer 2015 (if you do have 26 contributions this year)

BobbyOLGrinds · 13-06-2013 5:06pm

WoolahUrma wrote: »

Thanks for the info,

You're welcome.

One big difference between rcsi and ucd seems to be that a lot of work is front ended in rcsi, so the first year in particular is tough going but when you hit year three, youll be well conditioned to it.

First and second year in UCD are quite tough going, don't get me wrong. I have a degree in physiology which helped enormously. The difference between clinical and pre-clinical is hard to explain. It's closer to an apprenticeship than a college course. What I'm really trying to say is that no amount of pre-clinical work will condition you to the clinical years. I've yet to meet an RCSI student who wasn't as flattened by the work as us.

How exactly does it work with the hospital placement? Is it the case that you're told what you need to know, then you're given a team to work with and then it's your responsibility to figure out what's up?

It depends on the team. There is much less spoon-fed teaching once you reach the hospitals. Some teams like to teach and some don't, so some will tell you the list of hot-topics for their specialty and some won't. In a similar vein, some teams won't even talk to you while others will be buying you coffees at lunch.

Doing a bit of research yourself first, then ask a final year or Intern what the big areas are. Then ask the consultant about those areas. Mix in some book learning and randomly picking up pieces of information as you go, and you've got the gist of how the placements work.

UCD or RCSI?

Comments