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Pay more tax to bail out Public Servants?

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    #92
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    CDfm wrote: »
    ]]

    OK they got benchmarking and generous pensions so its payback time.

    Because the pay and benefit system for the public service is so complex accross the board they are being taxed that way.

    We should not feel sorry for them as lots of them are institutionalised into an alternative reality.

    Just take the dectralisation scheme to reduce costs etc they didnt play ball.

    the 10% pension levy is like a voluntary pension contribution and about time. Thats not a tax -they should be allowed to opt out of the pension but its so generous no one would.

    More generalisations. The higher paids get good pensions, lower paids often don't get much more than the state pension.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #93
    Mal-Adjusted
    Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble :mad: They took our jobs money!


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    #94
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    CDfm wrote: »
    the hse payscales are a nightmare -



    if you were a service guy for a computer company you would log every repair or an accountant you would have a time sheet charging out.



    your choice to use a motorbike and lots of people traveling to work get nothing like that.


    a lot of people in the private sector make do with less.

    i was speaking to a friend of mine this morning who is borrowing money to take up a job in france

    the company he had worked for hadnt paid wages in 2 or 3 months

    can imagine a civil servant working like that in the hope of payment

    Now it is fine to take 1 job or sector as every agrees that health is needed etc.But its in the totality we cant afford the Public Service as they are.

    So where would you start making cuts. Well I would reduce pay for useless services like archaeologists etc.

    I agree I still find the payscales difficult and I'm in nearly 14 years.

    The thing is I'm not in one of those jobs you mentioned, I keep notes that cover the above. However, handing in extra stats that require material that is already available is something else, it's time consuming and prevents me from doing what I trained for.

    Your right is my choice how I get to work and I wouldn't expect an employer to pay for that; however, if they want me to travel during my shift that is something different. Travel pays for wear and tear of the employee’s car and fuel; your not expecting people to pay for work-incurred costs are you? Isn’t this the reason why companies supply a company car as travel is seen as part of the job?

    The are also a lot of people in the private sector making more, so that is a weak point. Looking at the core group I studied with a long time ago, a high number of them are making more in the private sector, that is sticking to my profession, there is no point comparing a psychotherapist to a plumber.

    Well if I was made king for the day, I would start with admin middle management; along with those who cost us significant amounts of money with golden cows during the past years. What I would be looking for is ways to keep my nurses etc doing the work they trained for not being bogged down in paper-work.

    At the end of the day it has to be acknowledged that there is a lot of waste in the public sector, however, you can't tar all public service workers with the same brush. Sadly, some people are without work, however, this applies to people in both areas. All public service workers have taken a series of cuts in the past year, not everybody in the private sector has, that is with the exception of the income levy.

    I have to put my hands up and admit I know little about pensions, but I know that I won't be getting a whopping one. If I'm still there when I'm 65 I will still be short of the 40 years full service, but even if I had that, I will still be entitled to a state pension, possibly because it is not the massive amount that people think.


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    #95
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    K-9 wrote: »
    More generalisations. The higher paids get good pensions, lower paids often don't get much more than the state pension.

    The public service pay system and especially the HSE ones are too difficult to automise.

    Thats bad that is.

    Odysseus wrote: »
    I agree I still find the payscales difficult and I'm in nearly 14 years.

    The thing is I'm not in one of those jobs you mentioned, I keep notes that cover the above. However, handing in extra stats that require material that is already available is something else, it's time consuming and prevents me from doing what I trained for.

    Lots of people have to be high skilled in reasonable jobs and an electrician or gas fitter who does not know his job is fairly lethal.


    Your right is my choice how I get to work and I wouldn't expect an employer to pay for that; however, if they want me to travel during my shift that is something different. Travel pays for wear and tear of the employee’s car and fuel; your not expecting people to pay for work-incurred costs are you? Isn’t this the reason why companies supply a company car as travel is seen as part of the job?

    Company cars are not guaranteed and lots of peopole use their own cars.
    The are also a lot of people in the private sector making more, so that is a weak point. Looking at the core group I studied with a long time ago, a high number of them are making more in the private sector, that is sticking to my profession, there is no point comparing a psychotherapist to a plumber.

    And why not -maybe to an engineer then or a quantity surveyor.
    Well ifwas made king for the day, I would start with admin middle management; along with those who cost us significant amounts of money with golden cows during the past years. What I would be looking for is ways to keep my nurses etc doing the work they trained for not being bogged down in paper-work I .

    The nurses are a pampered bunch and if you read what the medics post on boards then a working nurse is an oxymoron.
    At the end of the day it has to be acknowledged that there is a lot of waste in the public sector, however, you can't tar all public service workers with the same brush. Sadly, some people are without work, however, this applies to people in both areas.
    public service workers are a collective and will not fess up \on their colleagues manage or take drastic action.

    Appalling management and if they cant manage get rid of them or down grade them.

    They are like the Borg in Star Trek.
    I have to put my hands up and admit I know little about pensions, but I know that I won't be getting a whopping one. If I'm still there when I'm 65 I will still be short of the 40 years full service, but even if I had that, I will still be entitled to a state pension, possibly because it is not the massive amount that people think.

    But thats not our fault and we should not feel sorry for you. you are doing better than the average joe.


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    #96
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    CDfm wrote: »
    The public service pay system and especially the HSE ones are too difficult to automise.

    Thats bad that is.




    Lots of people have to be high skilled in reasonable jobs and an electrician or gas fitter who does not know his job is fairly lethal.





    Company cars are not guaranteed and lots of peopole use their own cars.



    And why not -maybe to an engineer then or a quantity surveyor.



    The nurses are a pampered bunch and if you read what the medics post on boards then a working nurse is an oxymoron.

    public service workers are a collective and will not fess up \on their colleagues manage or take drastic action.

    Appalling management and if they cant manage get rid of them or down grade them.

    They are like the Borg in Star Trek.



    But thats not our fault and we should not feel sorry for you. you are doing better than the average joe.

    I agree that people like that are highly skilled; I don’t think I said they weren’t.

    I don’t know that many people who are expected to travel as part of their job, who are not paid travel or get a use of a company car/van etc.

    I don’t see your point about moving to a different career, in relation to my point about wages for my profession in the private sector.

    Nurses are pampered, next time you need one please remind them of that point. Like any other profession there are good and bad, but pampered? I don’t think so. However, seriously have you any links for those threads your referring to. I keep a eye on the health sciences forum and I have never seen anything like what your referring to.

    As for comparing me to the average Joe, I don’t know, I have friends who took pay cuts and some who have had their wages increase over the past year. However, what ever I have is down to me; my chosen profession and my ability to perform in that profession. As I said earlier I have taken on extra private work to make up for the shortfall in my salary. I could take up more but I’m not going to do that. My ability to earn extra money is down to the skills I possess and the choices I made in relation to my career. In other words the things I have in my life are there because I earned them, not because I'm a public sector worker getting a easy life. I earned them the same way my private sector neighbour did.

    Some people don’t have that opportunity, I'm not looking for anybody to feel sorry for me; however, I do have issues with wide generalisations about public service workers. Am I supposed to feel sorry for the person who chased money instead of gaining good qualifications that make them more employable? I know their are a lot of people out there who have good quals and no job, but a lot of people where just chasing money. Note the increase in demand for college places this year. Next thing people will want public sector employees to apologise for having a job.


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    #97
    dolliemix
    Registered Users Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭dolliemix


    CDfm wrote: »
    Sorry dolliemix but I cant understand your logic.

    A public servant draws down their salary from the public purse. Taxes.

    A private sector worker or self employed person does not.

    The argument here is do the private sector workers want to pay more to public servants who "earn more than we do" and the answer is no.

    There is not enough money in the kitty to do so so people say cuts For the win.

    lol! Apologies I was drunk when I wrote that! I can't really make head nor tale of it either and I have a vague recollection of writing it so I'm not even sure what point I was trying to make!

    I guess I felt that the when the OP wrote that he was living in the real world 'creating money' he actually has no idea what the real world is. Its so arrogant to insist that public servants don't live in the real world because they're not out to try and make massive profits and rip the rest of the country off, which is probably what the OP was doing up until two years ago.

    Everyones feeling the pinch at the moment. I'm sick of people singling out public servants and trying to make out life is easy for them.

    The two examples the OP used in his post were not typical of your average teacher or public servant.


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    #98
    talla10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭talla10


    CDfm wrote: »
    Pot Noodle is right -they dont have special skills

    Gardai, Dublin Fire Service(including ambulance) Nurses, Prison Officers Etc sure anybody can do these jobs yes????dont think so i would love to see private service pencil pushers do one shift with any of the above!!!


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    #99
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    talla10 wrote: »
    Gardai, Dublin Fire Service(including ambulance) Nurses, Prison Officers Etc sure anybody can do these jobs yes????dont think so i would love to see private service pencil pushers do one shift with any of the above!!!

    I am not saying that.

    I am saying that with tax revenues down and unemployment up to 1 in 8 of the workforce there is less to go around moneywise

    Of all the advantages Ireland had as an economy the low tax one is what is left. It is no longer a low wage economy attractive as a business location. The celtic tiger is over.

    It doesnt matter how good you are as a country we cant afford you and they would be all doing us a favour if they would up sticks and emigrate.


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    #100
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    CDfm wrote: »
    I am not saying that.

    I am saying that with tax revenues down and unemployment up to 1 in 8 of the workforce there is less to go around moneywise

    Of all the advantages Ireland had as an economy the low tax one is what is left. It is no longer a low wage economy attractive as a business location. The celtic tiger is over.

    It doesnt matter how good you are as a country we cant afford you and they would be all doing us a favour if they would up sticks and emigrate.

    Are you seriously saying that Ireland would be in a better place if all the health care, security services, and the like left the country. How would that work out for you, nobody to protect you, nobody to help with your medical issues, nobody to collect taxes, etc. Whilst those areas may be lacking in certain respects try living in a country without them.


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    #101
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Odysseus wrote: »
    Are you seriously saying that Ireland would be in a better place if all the health care, security services, and the like left the country. How would that work out for you, nobody to protect you, nobody to help with your medical issues, nobody to collect taxes, etc. Whilst those areas may be lacking in certain respects try living in a country without them.

    Just saying we cant afford them and the good times are gone.

    Just wait till the dole and unmarried mothers get cut.

    The economics of the situation is not complex. Hey I can understand it and there are a lot of civil servants and union leaders with the same qualifications as me.Economics is not rocket science.

    So to say it was a surprise to anyone senior in the Civil Service or Unions is stupid cos if I knew it they did too.

    Joining the Euro meant we could not devalue our currency so our options are raising taxes or cutting spending.

    Raising taxes is not an option as it would damage what is left of our competitive advantage as an economy. Oh ... and we are no longer a low wage economy as the cost and pay rates of our public servants got rid of that.


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    #102
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    CDfm wrote: »
    Just saying we cant afford them and the good times are gone.

    Raising taxes is not an option as it would damage what is left of our competitive advantage as an economy. Oh ... and we are no longer a low wage economy as the cost and pay rates of our public servants got rid of that.

    A country can not survive without a public service, so we have no choice in not having one. Or if you think it can, how would the services they provide be carried out?

    So despite the cuts, are you suggesting that we should be cut again instead of a tax increase in both sectors.


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    #103
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Odysseus wrote: »
    A country can not survive without a public service, so we have no choice in not having one. Or if you think it can, how would the services they provide be carried out?

    So despite the cuts, are you suggesting that we should be cut again instead of a tax increase in both sectors.


    as you do not have the option of devalueing the currency thats what you have to do.

    the pay rises that occured and benchmarking were not realistic so these need to be unwound

    what you define as public services are some services you cannot afford because of wage rates..

    our wages used to be around 70% of mainland europe now our dole is over twice that of the UK.

    where is it written that costs can only go up.


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    #104
    hitlersson666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭hitlersson666


    Feck them

    They Get paid way too much!!!


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    #105
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    CDfm wrote: »
    as you do not have the option of devalueing the currency thats what you have to do.

    the pay rises that occured and benchmarking were not realistic so these need to be unwound

    what you define as public services are some services you cannot afford because of wage rates..

    our wages used to be around 70% of mainland europe now our dole is over twice that of the UK.

    where is it written that costs can only go up.


    So you think the cuts in the past year haven't addressed benchmaking. TBH I don't know the exact impact of it on my salarly[as it came in bits and pieces] but I'm down about 100e a week, so I think it would have addressed it. The last cut was the first one to effect my salary on paper, I'm down about 4,000+ before tax. Am I correct in that I believe you saying we should be cut again? I know that there where are people in my profession where earning a lot more in the private sector, and still are.

    Dole benefits have nothing to do with public sector workers, but it does come from the public fund. I think the services I defined where health, security, and the like. So I really am missing your point on this, I'm tired now so maybe its me but could you clarify.


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    #106
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    hitlersson666 wrote: »
    Feck them

    They Get paid way too much!!!


    Excellent contribution, your insight is awesome.


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    #107
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    hitlersson666 wrote: »
    Feck them

    They Get paid way too much!!!

    Hitlersson gets all post keynesian on us challenging us to review our attitudes towards the neutrality of money.

    He asks us to consider whether or not the unit prices of labour are fixed and whether a small open economy with no control over moinetary or interest rate policy should have a more agreesive approach towards government spending.

    Aint that right H666


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    #108
    daisybelle2008
    Registered Users Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭daisybelle2008


    What about the financial accountability for expenses. My friend (council worker) goes away on business/training, she gets automatic un-vouched expenses and mileage. She never stay in hotels, instead stays with friends or family and pockets the difference.
    I have to pay upfront and reclaim showing a receipt for everything I have spent. I can only travel economy because I am not senior managment and could not dream of abusing the expense system.
    Un-vouched expenses is a ridiculous abuse of tax-payers money.


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    #109
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Odysseus wrote: »
    So you think the cuts in the past year haven't addressed benchmaking. TBH I don't know the exact impact of it on my salarly[as it came in bits and pieces] but I'm down about 100e a week, so I think it would have addressed it. The last cut was the first one to effect my salary on paper, I'm down about 4,000+ before tax. Am I correct in that I believe you saying we should be cut again? I know that there where are people in my profession where earning a lot more in the private sector, and still are.

    the effects on private sector workers have been severe and i know one bunch of guys whose salary levels have dropped from 80k to 35k and count themselves lucky
    Dole benefits have nothing to do with public sector workers, but it does come from the public fund

    The public purse and that is finite and the approach to it has been that its bottomless and we have just found out it isnt.



    I think the services I defined where health, security, and the like. So I really am missing your point on this, I'm tired now so maybe its me but could you clarify.

    Take SRTechnics at the airport that shut when the parent company said we need to achieve 25% cost savings.

    It closed.

    The public service is the same and resistant too change.

    Take the HSE - if you want to change working practices you cant as managers arent allowed manage to get the most out of a finite budget because of draconian labour practices.

    The only way there to initiate change would be to cut funding and for the HSE to outsourse services privately.

    In fact, this happened in Holland where the privatised health insurance and its no longer paid for from the public purse.

    Holland is not a right wing country and if they could not bring in a health service without radically changing its funding who can.

    I wouldnt be surprised if we adopted this model.


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    #110
    dolliemix
    Registered Users Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭dolliemix


    daisybelle2008 wrote: »
    What about the financial accountability for expenses. My friend (council worker) goes away on business/training, she gets automatic un-vouched expenses and mileage. She never stay in hotels, instead stays with friends or family and pockets the difference.
    I have to pay upfront and reclaim showing a receipt for everything I have spent. I can only travel economy because I am not senior managment and could not dream of abusing the expense system.
    Un-vouched expenses is a ridiculous abuse of tax-payers money.

    That is wrong and dishonest of your friend.

    But it is not a reflection of all public servants.

    Again, why do people use the example of the corrupt and dishonest public servants to make their point? It's unfair to tar everyone with same brush. The majority of public servants go in and do and honest's day work everyday.

    CDFM - I really do not understand how you think the country would survive without public services. Where would children go to school? What about sick people? Your views are too simplistic - 'get them all to immigrate'! :eek: Can you give me an example of an economically successful country that has run such a system in the past or even at present?


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    #111
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dolliemix wrote: »
    That is wrong and dishonest of your friend.

    But it is not a reflection of all public servants.

    Again, why do people use the example of the corrupt and dishonest public servants to make their point? It's unfair to tar everyone with same brush. The majority of public servants go in and do and honest's day work everyday.

    its the system and its legal
    CDFM - I really do not understand how you think the country would survive without public services. Where would children go to school? What about sick people? Your views are too simplistic - 'get them all to immigrate'! :eek: Can you give me an example of an economically successful country that has run such a system in the past or even at present?

    What i am saying is that civil or public servants who operate like that should go.

    You need to take a very simple view with it as the essential services are the ones who will strike.

    No one cares if an archaeologist goes on strike or the ordinance survey.

    Take it from me you would have had widespread resignations if anyone would take them.

    Irish medical professionals earn more than their UK equivalents and i have heard that the irish healthcare spend per capita is higher than the uk ( i dont know if that is the case) so why dont we have free medical care?


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    #112
    dolliemix
    Registered Users Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭dolliemix


    CDfm wrote: »
    its the system and its legal




    its dishonest of the friend to claim expenses when she didn't use them.


    And, yes, I agree with you, people who take advantage of the system for their own financial gain should be made accountable for what they have, essentially, 'stolen' from the public kitty.

    But a minority of people will abuse the system across the board, be they public servants, private sector or social welfare recipitants.

    People are equally as angry with the greedy bankers and developers who've left them dry financially over the years, and now it appears their wages have been cut to support them and the people who bought into what turned out to be the Celtic Nightmare.

    I'd also love to know why I don't get free medical care? God knows I'm paying enough taxes! But thats a Government budgetary issue - it's got nothing to do with the over-worked nurse, who, my opinion, deserves evry penny she gets! It's not like nurses are millionaires living in penthouses with private jets. They get paid a decent enough wage , for an extremely important job. I don't know what the exact figures are but I don't know any nurse driving around in a 10 BMW or the like (unless they're married to some stinking rich private sector fat cat :D)


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    #113
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    CDfm wrote: »
    Just saying we cant afford them and the good times are gone.

    Just wait till the dole and unmarried mothers get cut.

    The economics of the situation is not complex. Hey I can understand it and there are a lot of civil servants and union leaders with the same qualifications as me.Economics is not rocket science.

    So to say it was a surprise to anyone senior in the Civil Service or Unions is stupid cos if I knew it they did too.

    Joining the Euro meant we could not devalue our currency so our options are raising taxes or cutting spending.

    Raising taxes is not an option as it would damage what is left of our competitive advantage as an economy. Oh ... and we are no longer a low wage economy as the cost and pay rates of our public servants got rid of that.

    Raising taxes is an option. We can't keep cutting Public Servants pay either, especially the way it has been done. Our budget deficit is so big, cutting pay and raising taxes are sh*te options, but have to be done.

    Ideally, taxes should never have been cut to this level, especially seeing as it was based on property bubble tax revenues.
    CDfm wrote: »
    the effects on private sector workers have been severe and i know one bunch of guys whose salary levels have dropped from 80k to 35k and count themselves lucky



    The public purse and that is finite and the approach to it has been that its bottomless and we have just found out it isnt.






    Take SRTechnics at the airport that shut when the parent company said we need to achieve 25% cost savings.

    It closed.

    The public service is the same and resistant too change.

    Take the HSE - if you want to change working practices you cant as managers arent allowed manage to get the most out of a finite budget because of draconian labour practices.

    The only way there to initiate change would be to cut funding and for the HSE to outsourse services privately.

    In fact, this happened in Holland where the privatised health insurance and its no longer paid for from the public purse.

    Holland is not a right wing country and if they could not bring in a health service without radically changing its funding who can.

    I wouldnt be surprised if we adopted this model.

    As long as the lower paid have subsidised access to Health, that sounds ok.

    I think it is obvious that in times of lower income, the likes of SW and Health often need more resources.
    cdfm wrote:
    The public service pay system and especially the HSE ones are too difficult to automise.

    Thats bad that is.

    What do you mean? What's your alternative?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #114
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Pot wrote:
    I am in my Billix minimum wage from now on because they are nothing special a Wombat could there work

    Nice, you just called 30,000 odd taxpayers wombats, including my folks.. You may be on minimum wage but you don't pay tax if so, so shut up.

    I've tried fathoming what my dad does but I don't understand it, and definitely couldn't stick it. He's paid for 8 hours a day but is expected to (and does) work nearly 12 hours every day. Only perk he has is a free mobile, no flashy company car etc etc.

    Don't be so quick to slag off the public sector workers, just because the private sector can't handle itself isn't a reason to send public sector workers down the Swanee to bail out the mess.


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    #115
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dolliemix wrote: »
    its dishonest of the friend to claim expenses when she didn't use them.


    And, yes, I agree with you, people who take advantage of the system for their own financial gain should be made accountable for what they have, essentially, 'stolen' from the public kitty.

    But a minority of people will abuse the system across the board, be they public servants, private sector or social welfare recipitants.

    lots of them do itb as its in their collective agreements that therevare 300.000 basketcases living in laLa land.
    People are equally as angry with the greedy bankers and developers who've left them dry financially over the years, and now it appears their wages have been cut to support them and the people who bought into what turned out to be the Celtic Nightmare.

    they were not regulated by the central bank and the department of finance then :rolleyes:

    dont tell me that civil servants did not understand the economics or that the union leaders didnt understand them.

    they have similar qualifications to me and i understand it

    it isnt rocket science and rocket science is simple and so is this
    I'd also love to know why I don't get free medical care? God knows I'm paying enough taxes! But thats a Government budgetary issue - it's got nothing to do with the over-worked nurse, who, my opinion, deserves evry penny she gets! It's not like nurses are millionaires living in penthouses with private jets. They get paid a decent enough wage , for an extremely important job. I don't know what the exact figures are but I don't know any nurse driving around in a 10 BMW or the like (unless they're married to some stinking rich private sector fat cat :D)

    The Partnership thing didnt work and it spent money we didnt have. Every individual public servant is a lovely person that deserves to win the lotto. Every nurse too.

    Thing is we cant afford them. There are precious few private jets.

    The Celtic Tiger was makey upey and the money is not there.

    NAMA as a mechanism takes the heat off but all the work practices and finances must be changed.

    The countries finances are an economic basket case and as a collective the public service unions are certifiable loonies.
    K-9 wrote: »
    Raising taxes is an option. We can't keep cutting Public Servants pay either, especially the way it has been done. Our budget deficit is so big, cutting pay and raising taxes are sh*te options, but have to be done.

    Ideally, taxes should never have been cut to this level, especially seeing as it was based on property bubble tax revenues.



    As long as the lower paid have subsidised access to Health, that sounds ok.

    I think it is obvious that in times of lower income, the likes of SW and Health often need more resources.



    What do you mean? What's your alternative?

    taxes cannot go up as it would f up whats left of the economy.

    the money was never there to pay for the services and certainly not the way they are managed

    our dole payments are 2 or 3 times that of the uk

    Go figure if the UK cant work like that we cant either and dont forget our doctors are paid 50% more than theirs.
    sdonn wrote: »
    Nice, you just called 30,000 odd taxpayers wombats, including my folks.. You may be on minimum wage but you don't pay tax if so, so shut up.

    I've tried fathoming what my dad does but I don't understand it, and definitely couldn't stick it. He's paid for 8 hours a day but is expected to (and does) work nearly 12 hours every day. Only perk he has is a free mobile, no flashy company car etc etc.

    Don't be so quick to slag off the public sector workers, just because the private sector can't handle itself isn't a reason to send public sector workers down the Swanee to bail out the mess.

    That sounds like aa normal taxpayer who is being asked to foot the bill to me.

    No company car etc. Benchmarking to him would be a very realistic and reasonable option.


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    #116
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    CDfm wrote: »
    No company car etc. Benchmarking to him would be a very realistic and reasonable option.

    Any benchmarking CS/PS's got in the last 3/4 years has been reversed at this stage by the various levies.


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    #117
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    sdonn wrote: »
    Any benchmarking CS/PS's got in the last 3/4 years has been reversed at this stage by the various levies.

    3 or 4 years ago there was revenue from building taxes

    3 or 4 years ago there were 5% unemployment

    you probably need to go back to reverse stuff and funding porogrammes way back.

    I dont know the figures but health service expenditure doubled or tripled

    fire the lot of them and rehire the ones that want to work on normal work contracts.


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    #118
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    daisybelle2008 wrote: »
    What about the financial accountability for expenses. My friend (council worker) goes away on business/training, she gets automatic un-vouched expenses and mileage. She never stay in hotels, instead stays with friends or family and pockets the difference.
    I have to pay upfront and reclaim showing a receipt for everything I have spent. I can only travel economy because I am not senior managment and could not dream of abusing the expense system.
    Un-vouched expenses is a ridiculous abuse of tax-payers money.

    Never got to travel with my job, it looked like I was going to do it once to attend a seminar. When that was being looked at it was nothing like the above and anyone I know who travelled as part of their work always have to vouch for everything.


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    #119
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    CDfm wrote: »

    fire the lot of them and rehire the ones that want to work on normal work contracts.


    You keep saying this but how is that going to work, fire all PS workers who is going to hire the new ones? And who is going to hire those who are doing the hiring? Who is going to man the hospitals whilst your in the process of re-hiring. How many people would die with without medical care while you in this process. This is become a joke at this stage, I out of this thread, I just can't take you seriously anymore.


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    #120
    dolliemix
    Registered Users Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭dolliemix


    Odysseus wrote: »
    You keep saying this but how is that going to work, fire all PS workers who is going to hire the new ones? And who is going to hire those who are doing the hiring? Who is going to man the hospitals whilst your in the process of re-hiring. How many people would die with without medical care while you in this process. This is become a joke at this stage, I out of this thread, I just can't take you seriously anymore.

    +1 to this

    Every argument CDFM makes is a defensive sweeping generalisation about public servants. And the solutions offered are unrealistic and unpractical.

    I'm also out of this thread!


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    #121
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    CDfm wrote: »
    l

    taxes cannot go up as it would f up whats left of the economy.

    the money was never there to pay for the services and certainly not the way they are managed

    our dole payments are 2 or 3 times that of the uk

    You really haven't a clue have you. The deficit is so big, it can't be bridged just by cuts in spending.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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