Thoughts of an unapologetic teacher

somefeen · 15-09-2019 11:34pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Semi colon, me hole.

I see what you did there

Rodin · 15-09-2019 11:59pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Be fair, don't you know that lessons plan themselves, there's a magical robot that corrects the homework and people who put four years work into a diploma are happy to live with the uncertainty of not having an income for two months a year?

And that's before we get the subject of his maths: 18 hours a week is less than four hours a working day, meaning every schoolday finishes at 12.40 in the afternoon.

Every professional puts in hours outside actual 'working' time.

cj maxx · 16-09-2019 12:05am

JizzBeans wrote: »

Some good ideas there for sure, but unless you don something about it, its just words.

Oh it's just words ! If anything was attempted teachers would just strike.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-09-2019 4:12am

Rodin wrote: »

Every professional puts in hours outside actual 'working' time.

Oh, so now we're accepting that teachers put in work outside of the classroom...?

So far, you've proven that you have no idea how many hours they put in (OP did not say 18, OP said "at least 18" and that was just classroom time. Nor what the hourly rate works out at (you can't when you don't know how many hours there are). Also pretty sure you've no idea how hard it'll be to put your idea of convincing qualified professionals to take several weeks of unpaid leave every year (seeing as you've dodged the question two or three times here)

Professionals who work for free do so in the private sector, as they have the incentive of promotions and pay rises. Doesn't work that way in pay grade and advancement routes are limited. What you ultimately want here is something for nothing.

So yeah - you have, as demonstrated no idea. And we're done here too.

poisonated · 16-09-2019 4:21am

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Whatever your thoughts on teachers, by far the most disturbing part of this entire thread is a 36 year old man using the term "bro"
I mean ffs lad,

I was with you until you used the word “lad”. Unless you did it for irony. I mean come on, pal.

poisonated · 16-09-2019 4:27am

Teachers do have it very easy for their salary. I don’t think people have it in for teachers or anything. They are just observant.

Wanderer78 · 16-09-2019 4:29am

poisonated wrote:

Teachers do have it very easy for their salary. I donâ€™t think people have it on for teachers or anything. They are just observant.

I seriously doubt that, I'd say it's a fairly stressful job in fairness, maybe the problem is other workers, particularly in the private sector are just getting screwed

poisonated · 16-09-2019 4:38am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I seriously doubt that, I'd say it's a fairly stressful job in fairness, maybe the problem is other workers, particularly in the private sector are just getting screwed

I work in the private sector and I have it pretty easy. I’m able to admit that though.

2ygb4cmqetsjhx · 16-09-2019 5:42am

Honestly, I think teachers deserve more pay. God love them. The ****e they have to put up with from little bastards is unreal. Also, it is worth investing in education. Double teachers pay. **** it.

Wanderer78 · 16-09-2019 5:56am

Brayan Mammoth Spanish wrote: »

Honestly, I think teachers deserve more pay. God love them. The ****e they have to put up with from little bastards is unreal. Also, it is worth investing in education. Double teachers pay. **** it.

id say you d crash the economy if you doubled it

emilymemily · 16-09-2019 8:52am

TimeToShine wrote: »

Teaching is great in your 20s and 30s but then when you get a bit older and most of your friends are advancing in dynamic careers, meeting interesting people from abroad, developing new perspectives and coming into their prime as leaders, influencers and potentially becoming authorities in certain fields you'll be stuck talking the same old insular ****e to the same old people who do the same thing as you day in day out.

I don't begrudge teachers in the slightest, in fact I pity them slightly since we have to make this decision at such a young age and teaching really has zero room for maneuver.

Each to their own however.

Most of my friends are stay at home mothers, work part time receptionist jobs or other normal jobs, like most people, not everyone wants to climb dynamic career ladders or become authorities.
As you say, each to their own.
I love the kids and students that I work with, they brighten my day, if I go to work in a bad mood within an hour of being in class i'll be feeling much better with more energy, I also genuinely love being of help and support to other people too and teaching allows me to take on that role as students know they can come to me with anything and I also get to support their learning and confidence building.
I hated school when I was young so I feel like I relate to allot of the students who fall behind or dont follow the rules and I know how to get them on my side.
My only regret about becoming a teacher is the lack of employment opportunities.

TimeToShine · 16-09-2019 7:17pm

emilymemily wrote: »

Most of my friends are stay at home mothers, work part time receptionist jobs or other normal jobs, like most people, not everyone wants to climb dynamic career ladders or become authorities.
As you say, each to their own.

I'm not sure how relevant your friends are but to be frank nobody wants stay at home mothers and part time receptionists teaching their kids. Teaching is historically the most noble of professions and should attract the absolute best of the best so we can cultivate the ability to learn, pass it on to future generations and spur creativity and curiosity from a young age. Teaching should be up there with medicine and law as a premium career choice carrying arguably the greatest responsibility of all aside from actually saving lives. Instead we get Mary and Conor who do an arts degree and then shimmy their way into teaching because of the grand salary and summers off, and they make threads like this complaining about teacher bashing.

This is not directed at you by the way, if I had my way teachers would be paid very handsomely straight out the gate but in return I would expect a very high standard of employee. As it stands maybe 10% of teachers are actually fit to do so at such a level - I had one in secondary school (out of at least 30) and to this day I have no doubt that two years in his classroom changed my life more than the rest of them combined - he was also doing a job well below his station and it makes me wonder what would happen if every teacher was held to such standards. I don't blame teachers in the slightest, it is a systemic issue and I respect the fact that most of them work very hard, but they are paid quite well to do so and have plenty of holidays so they really can't complain.

Treppen · 16-09-2019 7:20pm

poisonated wrote: »

Teachers do have it very easy for their salary. I don’t think people have it in for teachers or anything. They are just observant.

Observant from what viewing point? Inside or outside the classroom?

I can be observant of a train driver having been in a train myself.... And seeing Thomas the tank engine.

Treppen · 16-09-2019 7:24pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'm not sure how relevant your friends are but to be frank nobody wants stay at home mothers and part time receptionists teaching their kids. Teaching is historically the most noble of professions and should attract the absolute best of the best so we can cultivate the ability to learn, pass it on to future generations and spur creativity and curiosity from a young age. Teaching should be up there with medicine and law as a premium career choice carrying arguably the greatest responsibility of all aside from actually saving lives. Instead we get Mary and Conor who do an arts degree and then shimmy their way into teaching because of the grand salary and summers off, and they make threads like this complaining about teacher bashing.

This is not directed at you by the way, if I had my way teachers would be paid very handsomely straight out the gate but in return I would expect a very high standard of employee. As it stands maybe 10% of teachers are actually fit to do so at such a level - I had one in secondary school (out of at least 30) and to this day I have no doubt that two years in his classroom changed my life more than the rest of them combined - he was also doing a job well below his station and it makes me wonder what would happen if every teacher was held to such standards. I don't blame teachers in the slightest, it is a systemic issue and I respect the fact that most of them work very hard, but they are paid quite well to do so and have plenty of holidays so they really can't complain.

So you want better quality teachers... But any that are will be on a par with your Captain and 'well below their station'.

It's nice the way you keep everyone in their place up there on your high horse.

What's your own job btw?

TimeToShine · 16-09-2019 7:31pm

Treppen wrote: »

So you want better quality teachers... But any that are will be on a par with your Captain and 'well below their station'.

It's nice the way you keep everyone in their place up there on your high horse.

What's your own job btw?

Not fair, I am aware that teachers work hard and that it isn't an easy gig but they get time off and salaried accordingly so, again, they really can't complain. I have a lot of respect for them but that doesn't mean that the system as it stands is optimized by any means, a higher bar to entry would mean a higher standard of teacher and a better nationwide education. That applies for any field but implementing it for teaching would benefit society the most in the long term. And to be honest I thought my claim that 10% of the current pool are at this level already was quite generous, who's to say all the teachers here aren't in that category? If they're posting here about their careers they clearly take them more seriously than most so there could well be a correlation.

Homelander · 16-09-2019 7:38pm

How would that work though. The profession demands a serious amount of bodies and if it suddenly becomes an academically high-demanding profession, it shuts a huge portion of that potential workforce out. Raise their salaries considerably, you say? Grand, but that's not going to fill the gap, notwithstanding that the country couldn't afford to suddenly start paying significantly increased salaries to all teachers (what is there, 50 thousand?)....even if the bodies were there (which they wouldn't be)

JizzBeans · 16-09-2019 7:38pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'm not sure how relevant your friends are but to be frank nobody wants stay at home mothers and part time receptionists teaching their kids. Teaching is historically the most noble of professions and should attract the absolute best of the best so we can cultivate the ability to learn, pass it on to future generations and spur creativity and curiosity from a young age. Teaching should be up there with medicine and law as a premium career choice carrying arguably the greatest responsibility of all aside from actually saving lives. Instead we get Mary and Conor who do an arts degree and then shimmy their way into teaching because of the grand salary and summers off, and they make threads like this complaining about teacher bashing.

This is not directed at you by the way, if I had my way teachers would be paid very handsomely straight out the gate but in return I would expect a very high standard of employee. As it stands maybe 10% of teachers are actually fit to do so at such a level - I had one in secondary school (out of at least 30) and to this day I have no doubt that two years in his classroom changed my life more than the rest of them combined - he was also doing a job well below his station and it makes me wonder what would happen if every teacher was held to such standards. I don't blame teachers in the slightest, it is a systemic issue and I respect the fact that most of them work very hard, but they are paid quite well to do so and have plenty of holidays so they really can't complain.

My only complaint is the begrudgery. But I agree with your sentiment, and I'm sure you agree your point shouldn't just apply to teachers. The best of the best should lead society, i.e politicians, guards, soldiers. Unfortunately it just isn't the reality.

Shefwedfan · 16-09-2019 8:03pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'm not sure how relevant your friends are but to be frank nobody wants stay at home mothers and part time receptionists teaching their kids. Teaching is historically the most noble of professions and should attract the absolute best of the best so we can cultivate the ability to learn, pass it on to future generations and spur creativity and curiosity from a young age. Teaching should be up there with medicine and law as a premium career choice carrying arguably the greatest responsibility of all aside from actually saving lives. Instead we get Mary and Conor who do an arts degree and then shimmy their way into teaching because of the grand salary and summers off, and they make threads like this complaining about teacher bashing.

This is not directed at you by the way, if I had my way teachers would be paid very handsomely straight out the gate but in return I would expect a very high standard of employee. As it stands maybe 10% of teachers are actually fit to do so at such a level - I had one in secondary school (out of at least 30) and to this day I have no doubt that two years in his classroom changed my life more than the rest of them combined - he was also doing a job well below his station and it makes me wonder what would happen if every teacher was held to such standards. I don't blame teachers in the slightest, it is a systemic issue and I respect the fact that most of them work very hard, but they are paid quite well to do so and have plenty of holidays so they really can't complain.

The best of the best is available....but via private schools. If you want a good education for your kids then expect to pay a lot for it......

The public school is just one big union of teachers fighting with another big union of teachers

So it doesn’t matter how good a teacher is if they are in a school and not in the right union they are pushed out.....

Then even if in the correct union you play by the books. Don’t do anything different to the other teachers, don’t go the extra cm with anyone because if you do it then the rest of the teachers might have to do it.....a friend of mine referred to
It as “the blue rinse brigade”.....she went outside the normal and had a good telling off by 5 others teachers who where the union rep in school

I don’t hate teachers and I don’t think anyone does. They are just the pawns in a game of unions v the government......

emilymemily · 16-09-2019 8:43pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

Not fair, I am aware that teachers work hard and that it isn't an easy gig but they get time off and salaried accordingly so, again, they really can't complain. I have a lot of respect for them but that doesn't mean that the system as it stands is optimized by any means, a higher bar to entry would mean a higher standard of teacher and a better nationwide education. That applies for any field but implementing it for teaching would benefit society the most in the long term. And to be honest I thought my claim that 10% of the current pool are at this level already was quite generous, who's to say all the teachers here aren't in that category? If they're posting here about their careers they clearly take them more seriously than most so there could well be a correlation.

Teachers already have the two year masters on top of their undergrad degrees and most teachers now have additional post grad qualifications in SEN, psychology, maths, Irish. Teachers already train as long as doctors and lawyers, some train longer.
What youre suggesting is that teaching become a profession only accessible to the middle and higher class which is exactly what is already happening.

The introduction of the PME tripled the cost and doubled the time it takes to become a teacher, this excludes lower classes from entering the profession.
Many of the NQT's starting now are more often than not from privileged backgrounds and may well be very educated but cant relate to the students, particularly those coming from low socioeconomic backgrounds.

Some of the best educators ive worked along side have been tutors in Youthreach and back to education leaving cert. They had no qualifications in teaching what so ever but they related to the students, cared about them, built professional but warm relationships and worked with the students instead of creating a hierarchy which formal teacher training tends to encourage.
No can really be taught how to teach, its something that comes with experience and a love of the job, if you dont like teaching, you will never be able to do it.

Keep in mind its not the teachers in permanent jobs for the past 10 years that are complaining, its the teachers who qualified after 2011 who had their wages cut, its also the subs who are jumping through hoops year after year trying to get work, spending thousands upskilling, travelling all over the place for a few hours of work a week if theyre lucky to get it and then getting messed around by schools.
I have a list the length of my arm of times ive been F'cked over by a school, ETB or education center and im not alone in that. Sub teachers have no rights.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-09-2019 8:58pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'm not sure how relevant your friends are but to be frank nobody wants stay at home mothers and part time receptionists teaching their kids..

I'm pretty sure a lot of people on here would jump at the chance if it turns out cheaper.

poisonated · 16-09-2019 11:17pm

Treppen wrote: »

Observant from what viewing point? Inside or outside the classroom?

I can be observant of a train driver having been in a train myself.... And seeing Thomas the tank engine.

LOL. What an awful analogy! Is that the type of thing you teach your kids? If so, I pity them...that is if you even are a teacher

ZV Yoda · 17-09-2019 7:46am

poisonated wrote: »

LOL. What an awful analogy! Is that the type of thing you teach your kids? If so, I pity them...that is if you even are a teacher

It's actually a pretty good analogy. I was taught (in school, funnily enough

) that an analogy is used to explain concepts / things that are similar in nature or principle.

Most people have been on a train at some point in their lives. Does't mean they know the first thing about being a train driver. Most people have been in a classroom too. Doesn't meant they know the first thing about being a teacher (I include myself here).

Good for you that you have it easy in the private sector. Personally, I'd be bored to death in a job like that.

Treppen · 17-09-2019 8:09am

TimeToShine wrote: »

Not fair, I am aware that teachers work hard and that it isn't an easy gig but they get time off and salaried accordingly so, again, they really can't complain. I have a lot of respect for them but that doesn't mean that the system as it stands is optimized by any means, a higher bar to entry would mean a higher standard of teacher and a better nationwide education.

Apart from specific subject matriculation the bar is set by points / demand.

How do you propose to increase demand?

Is there any particular reason these above par potential teachers are forging the brilliant conditions of teaching and going to be doctors etc.

TimeToShine wrote: »

That applies for any field but implementing it for teaching would benefit society the most in the long term. And to be honest I thought my claim that 10% of the current pool are at this level already was quite generous, who's to say all the teachers here aren't in that category? If they're posting here about their careers they clearly take them more seriously than most so there could well be a correlation.

Where are you getting these stats from?

Treppen · 17-09-2019 8:11am

poisonated wrote: »

LOL. What an awful analogy! Is that the type of thing you teach your kids? If so, I pity them...that is if you even are a teacher

If that's your only reply to the point your position must be weak.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-09-2019 8:18am

poisonated wrote: »

LOL. What an awful analogy! Is that the type of thing you teach your kids? If so, I pity them...that is if you even are a teacher

You know your argument is flawed when you have to resort to crappy personal attacks like this in order to get the last word in.

faceman · 17-09-2019 9:23am

OK I will attempt to have a pop just to see what bites. Although tbf, I don't really have a problem with teachers or their holidays etc. But I have an issue with the OP's post as its not exactly a humble representation of the type of person I would like teaching my kids.

JizzBeans wrote: »

Let me share.....
I am a 36yo and I teach religion and geography.

Ok lets have fun with this one. Do you find it satisfying and rewarding teaching those subjects? They are both subjects that rarely see new updates or findings. Geography is devoid of free thinking and while religion is a contentious topic, I don't believe that free thinking on the topic is encouraged in secondary schools, especially if its a Catholic school. Essentially you're teaching subjects that never change to kids who never age, while you get older. That takes a lot of mojo to keep your passion, enthusiasm and enjoyment of teaching those subjects up as the years go on. Not a dig, just eager to hear how you do it?

I am on point 9 on the pay scale, which is 47k a year. I am not married. Most terms, I work approx at least 18 hours a week, but some times more depending on how many exam classes I have. Most days I finish in the afternoon or else I have a large portion of the morning off. The only work I choose to do over the summer is invigilate exams to collect a nice lump sum. Other than that, the summer is mine to relish as I see fit. Most days I go to cafes for breakfast, morning gym sessions, day trips etc, etc. I am well off AND I FREAKING LOVE IT! I worked hard to get where I am and as the title suggests, I'm not the least bit sorry.

No one can argue that this isn't the equivalent of a handy number, and I wouldn't begrudge you of that. What is worth pointing out that often gets neglected to be mentioned is that if on average the working week is 18 hours then you are technically a part time worker. In many countries, employees who work less than 30 hours a week are considered part time. However in Ireland that law is defined differently and a little sneakily. You can only be defined as part time if some else who does the same job works more hours than you.

As most full time work that people have has folks working a minimum of 37 to 40 hours a week and in many professions for less income than the OP earns, its easy to see that this might raise a few eyebrows. If it was the private sector then fair enough, but because its funded by the tax payer the general public have a right to question the value that we get for money as well as the standards of education for children. I'd be interested in hearing why this is value for mney.

Now, of course this attracts all sorts of judgement. From friendly slagging by family and mates to heated discussions with friends of friends in social settings. But very occasionally, I will meet some barfly or tosser in the smoking room who apparently knows better. He/She will then proceed to explain why teachers are a "joke", like I was missing this information all along. Their rants are usually composed of one or more of the following;

1. "Your a teacher? Ah you have it handy so"
2. "You lot are always looking for more money, sure your off for the summer ffs wasters"
3. "You wouldn't last in the private sector let me tell ya, we have to work for a living"
4. "Automatic wage increase is a joke,you don't deserve it"
5. "Always f**king going on strike"
6. "I cant believe my taxes are paying for this bullsh*t"
7. "Sure ya cant fired, lazy b*stards"

Soooooooooooooo unoriginal.

Unoriginal yes, but not without merit.
Wage increase isn't linked to performance. This is detrimental to the profession and the education standards of children. If I am wrong I'd like to hear why.

Its incredible hard to fire teachers even for poor performance. That's a fair comment. Comes back to the value for money and the standards in education.

Yes,
I am off for the summer, its great. Of course I want more money. Why the F would I want to be in the private sector?? Its awful. Wage increases are the best. Striking is a day off. My tax pays for sh*t too.

Agree with this, everyone would love a piece of this pie.

I have often made the point that If you want those perks then become a teacher.

Kind of agree with this.

If you fundamentally disagree with how teaching is conducted in Ireland then make a complaint to the dept. of education/local TD or get elected and change the system. Otherwise I don't want to hear your dull commoner opinions. However my comebacks are usually always met with "yeah well teachers are a still joke" or some such muttering.

Unless someone can provide a solid, objective reason to justify anti-teacher sentiment, I can only assume the root cause of this agitation is (1.) Jealousy, (2.) Hate their own job and are miserable in it (3.) Not the brightest.

So, that is the perspective of an unapologetic teacher. For those of you who still have a problem with my profession I will leave you with two thoughts:

1. Not my fault you picked an unsatisfying career
2. I just don't give a Fu*k

This is really the crux of my issue with your post. As teachers, you should be championing the standards of education in the nation. You know the system better than anyone else and have a closer eye on poor performance. Poor standards in teaching globally leads to assessment of standards and a failure to act leads to an erosion of competitiveness in the international market. Given Ireland is heavily dependent on FDI, maintaining a high standard of education is key to success.

Its usually the business world that highlights falling standards in the quality of graduate education. In the US in the 90's, 45 business leaders lobby the government for higher standards in teaching and Clinton endorsed this view. This led to a measure to raise the standards of teaching in the country. Not the first time it happened, it also took place in the 80s. Clearly the world of work recognised the need for higher standards to ensure graduates were prepared for working life.

We all remember our days in school and the joy of having a great teacher and the misery of having a bad teacher. I had a teacher in secondary school that taught me French for 3 years. She was a horrendous teacher who had probably lost the love of teaching before my time and was just going through the motions. I had no joy for the subject and no interest as a result. Scraped through the JC and gave it up at the first opportunity. That teacher was never held to account. That's not in the interests of anyone, including the teacher.

A question I would ask the OP, if you were opening a school and your own kids and your nieces and nephews were the students, what standards and policies would you have in your school and education system?

Treppen · 17-09-2019 5:42pm

faceman wrote: »

OK I will attempt to have a pop just to see what bites. Although tbf, I don't really have a problem with teachers or their holidays etc. But I have an issue with the OP's post as its not exactly a humble representation of the type of person I would like teaching my kids.

Ok lets have fun with this one. Do you find it satisfying and rewarding teaching those subjects? They are both subjects that rarely see new updates or findings. Geography is devoid of free thinking and while religion is a contentious topic, I don't believe that free thinking on the topic is encouraged in secondary schools, especially if its a Catholic school. Essentially you're teaching subjects that never change to kids who never age, while you get older. That takes a lot of mojo to keep your passion, enthusiasm and enjoyment of teaching those subjects up as the years go on. Not a dig, just eager to hear how you do it?

No one can argue that this isn't the equivalent of a handy number, and I wouldn't begrudge you of that. What is worth pointing out that often gets neglected to be mentioned is that if on average the working week is 18 hours then you are technically a part time worker. In many countries, employees who work less than 30 hours a week are considered part time. However in Ireland that law is defined differently and a little sneakily. You can only be defined as part time if some else who does the same job works more hours than you.

As most full time work that people have has folks working a minimum of 37 to 40 hours a week and in many professions for less income than the OP earns, its easy to see that this might raise a few eyebrows. If it was the private sector then fair enough, but because its funded by the tax payer the general public have a right to question the value that we get for money as well as the standards of education for children. I'd be interested in hearing why this is value for mney.

Unoriginal yes, but not without merit.
Wage increase isn't linked to performance. This is detrimental to the profession and the education standards of children. If I am wrong I'd like to hear why.

Its incredible hard to fire teachers even for poor performance. That's a fair comment. Comes back to the value for money and the standards in education.

Agree with this, everyone would love a piece of this pie.

Kind of agree with this.

This is really the crux of my issue with your post. As teachers, you should be championing the standards of education in the nation. You know the system better than anyone else and have a closer eye on poor performance. Poor standards in teaching globally leads to assessment of standards and a failure to act leads to an erosion of competitiveness in the international market. Given Ireland is heavily dependent on FDI, maintaining a high standard of education is key to success.

Its usually the business world that highlights falling standards in the quality of graduate education. In the US in the 90's, 45 business leaders lobby the government for higher standards in teaching and Clinton endorsed this view. This led to a measure to raise the standards of teaching in the country. Not the first time it happened, it also took place in the 80s. Clearly the world of work recognised the need for higher standards to ensure graduates were prepared for working life.

We all remember our days in school and the joy of having a great teacher and the misery of having a bad teacher. I had a teacher in secondary school that taught me French for 3 years. She was a horrendous teacher who had probably lost the love of teaching before my time and was just going through the motions. I had no joy for the subject and no interest as a result. Scraped through the JC and gave it up at the first opportunity. That teacher was never held to account. That's not in the interests of anyone, including the teacher.

A question I would ask the OP, if you were opening a school and your own kids and your nieces and nephews were the students, what standards and policies would you have in your school and education system?

"I don't believe that free thinking on the topic is encouraged in secondary schools, especially if its a Catholic school. "

Well that's your belief!

Geography never sees new updates or findings

Ya it's not like climate, migration, industry and pollution etc will ever make the news is it?

"Have fun" with the rest , but your ignorance is showing from the outset.

Redneck Reject · 17-09-2019 6:07pm

My annoyance with teachers is their lack of understanding in teaching children with ASD.You cannot teach them like the rest of the children. Yet many don't take on classes to improve their skillset. Instead they write the kid off as non-academic, and tell the parents to focus on life skills. And just pass them on to the next class where it ceases to be their problem.IMVHO

faceman · 17-09-2019 6:30pm

Treppen wrote: »

"I don't believe that free thinking on the topic is encouraged in secondary schools, especially if its a Catholic school. "

Well that's your belief!

Ya it's not like climate, migration, industry and pollution etc will ever make the news is it?

"Have fun" with the rest , but your ignorance is showing from the outset.

Wow. You’ve shown your stripes.

Treppen · 17-09-2019 6:52pm

faceman wrote: »

Wow. You’ve shown your stripes.

Yes, thank you, and I'll nail em to the mast for you as well.

Treppen · 17-09-2019 6:54pm

Redneck Reject wrote: »

My annoyance with teachers is their lack of understanding in teaching children with ASD.You cannot teach them like the rest of the children. Yet many don't take on classes to improve their skillset. Instead they write the kid off as non-academic, and tell the parents to focus on life skills. And just pass them on to the next class where it ceases to be their problem.IMVHO

Teachers need more than understanding. They need solid training, adequate resources and mentoring from other experienced teachers... Agree?

meeeeh · 17-09-2019 7:01pm

Can I ask a question? I never had a religion teacher or religion in school. Is that a subject bible thumpers teach or is it a subject people pick because it's the least hassle.

Btw there will be nothing said against geography. It's one of the most interesting subjects in school and very much underrated. Like history.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-09-2019 8:18pm

faceman wrote: »

Its usually the business world that highlights falling standards in the quality of graduate education. In the US in the 90's, 45 business leaders lobby the government for higher standards in teaching and Clinton endorsed this view. This led to a measure to raise the standards of teaching in the country. Not the first time it happened, it also took place in the 80s. Clearly the world of work recognised the need for higher standards to ensure graduates were prepared for working life.

Sadly, what usually happens is that grades are increased, not standards.

Two-thirds of Trinity graduates get either Firsts or 2:1s in their degrees nowadays ... but does this mean that the standard of education at Trinity is better than it was 30 or 40 years ago? Not necessarily. Often, it's that a higher grade is being awarded for the same (or even lower) standard of work.

Look at a higher-level maths paper from the '70s or '80s and you'll see how the syllabus has been dumbed down over the last 40-odd years. There are more young people getting top grades in maths than ever before ... but then universities are failing up to 70 percent of students in STEM courses because they can't do maths. The illusion has to break down somewhere.

faceman · 17-09-2019 8:27pm

Treppen wrote: »

Yes, thank you, and I'll nail em to the mast for you as well.

Thats a bit aggressive. Are you sure you took the summer off?

faceman · 17-09-2019 8:31pm

Bonnie Happy Eyebrow wrote: »

Sadly, what usually happens is that grades are increased, not standards.

Two-thirds of Trinity graduates get either Firsts or 2:1s in their degrees nowadays ... but does this mean that the standard of education at Trinity is better than it was 30 or 40 years ago? Not necessarily. Often, it's that a higher grade is being awarded for the same (or even lower) standard of work.

Look at a higher-level maths paper from the '70s or '80s and you'll see how the syllabus has been dumbed down over the last 40-odd years. There are more young people getting top grades in maths than ever before ... but then universities are failing up to 70 percent of students in STEM courses because they can't do maths. The illusion has to break down somewhere.

Thats a fair point. There are a number of academic studies on the topic and some go in to detail on how standards are raised (Mainly US academic studies). I'd be interested to read studies in Ireland on how to improve education standards not just from the academic side but also the pedagogical approach.

partyguinness · 17-09-2019 8:37pm

In England teachers pay and terms are dictated by the local authority and school trust board.

In other words, it is not a blanket national scale. A teacher down the road doing the exact same job with same experience is not necessarily getting the same pay.

And yes oh yes- teachers get sacked here if they are not up to it.

partyguinness · 17-09-2019 8:38pm

Religion and geography teacher.

You sound like a right laugh. Two useless subjects.

Insect Overlord · 17-09-2019 8:41pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Religion and geography teacher.

You sound like a right laugh. Two useless subjects.

Geography is not a useless subject.

JizzBeans · 17-09-2019 9:02pm

Alright Il bite...

1. I hope you're not naive enough to think that I bounce out of bed in the morning and that I was born to teach with a passion for education and shaping young minds, etc., etc., etc??? This notion that you work in your dream career or you answer a calling in life is utter fantasy. The reality is working life is just a means to an end for most people and if you're lucky you can direct it to a certain extent. Your points could easily apply, for example, to the army or retailers. Same crap different day, paid from the neck down, always getting older. What freedom does anybody really have in their jobs?? But to answer the question my motivation is not "reward" or "fulfillment" per Se, its a relatively stress free, easy, consistent, comfortable job which I am proficient at.

2. Yes I see the distinction here. As I said in my OP, i did not design the current system, I do not have any say in what constitutes part time/full time hours, and it could be argued that its not "value for money". However, inefficiencies are rife throughout the public sector and not specifically teaching. Secondary school teacher wage bill is approx 1.2 billion p/a, why would people have more of a problem with this than say, spending 900 million on the Irish military, 800 million on overseas aid or 1.6 billion on dole???

3. Il give you that one on performance linked wage increase, lots of bad eggs benefit from this unfairly. However, this is a symptom of bigger problem not so long ago. During the boom time nobody really wanted public/civil jobs. Teachers positions were constantly being advertised and the only way to make these jobs more attractive was by financial incentive. But when things came tumbling down, all of a sudden everybody had a problem with the public sector and how ridiculous the pay was.

4. Yes I agree with having high standards in the education system, but teachers hands are tied in this regard. I am required to teach a set syllabus. And I think this relates to one of my original points, if people keep voting for a status quo government then things don't change, in essence you get the society you deserve. Furthermore, I would be quite happy to have my children come through the system as it is, after all I have done reasonably well for myself, and last time I checked society hasn't collapsed.

17-09-2019 9:22pm

JizzBeans wrote: »

Yes I agree with having high standards in the education system, but teachers hands are tied in this regard. I am required to teach a set syllabus. And I think this relates to one of my original points, if people keep voting for a status quo government then things don't change, in essence you get the society you deserve. Furthermore, I would be quite happy to have my children come through the system as it is, after all I have done reasonably well for myself, and last time I checked society hasn't collapsed.

Teaching unions are the most powerful in the country, so this "hands are tied" argument falls flat. Of course they have the ability to affect change. Handing it off the government is a convenient excuse for inaction, rather it's complacency among the teachers themselves.

"Last time I checked society hasn't collapsed". Hyperbolic drivel.

BrokenArrows · 17-09-2019 9:33pm

Well OP, you clearly give a **** because of this rant.

But Religion and Geography hardly counts as teaching now does it?

Bananaleaf · 17-09-2019 9:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Teaching unions are the most powerful in the country, so this "hands are tied" argument falls flat. Of course they have the ability to affect change. Handing it off the government is a convenient excuse for inaction, rather it's complacency among the teachers themselves.

"Last time I checked society hasn't collapsed". Hyperbolic drivel.

Wrong. Teachers unions are dead against change. I witnessed this at the last TUI meeting I went to. In fairness to the lads it was delivered to us in the most eloquent way so the bull**** between the lines was hard to sniff out. But it was there.

At its most basic: An issue like pay parity (equal pay for equal work) is what teachers wanted their unions to fight for. If the NQTs (Newly Qualified) get this though, it's going to impact pension entitlements to those who are not NQTs, including changes to the pensions of those already retired. Who chairs these TUI meetings? Retired teachers

Edit to add: It's not just retired teachers, it's also members on the better salary scales.
Argue with me if you like and tell me I'm wrong if I am. But if I'm wrong it's not because I'm lying, it's because the TUI are giving false information to their members, which is even worse again

partyguinness · 17-09-2019 10:01pm

I bet a 'Religion Teacher' is basically a makey up job the school had to drum up to keep him busy as they could not make him redundant.

I knew a lad who worked for FAS teaching a trade. When the crash happenend basically he had no more pupils...I mean zero. Now in the private sector he would have been left off but oh no. Basically he was moved to a new BS role made up on the back of a cigarette pack.

My buddy was embarrassed by it and said it was a farce. Now, with a mortgage a 3 kids he hardly left but at least he said it was a farce. Other public sector workers would try to justify it.

JizzBeans · 17-09-2019 10:05pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I bet a 'Religion Teacher' is basically a makey up job the school had to drum up to keep him busy as they could not make him redundant.

I knew a lad who worked for FAS teaching a trade. When the crash happenend basically he had no more pupils...I mean zero. Now in the private sector he would have been left off but oh no. Basically he was moved to a new BS role made up on the back of a cigarette pack.

My buddy was embarrassed by it and said it was a farce. Now, with a mortgage a 3 kids he hardly left but at least he said it was a farce. Other public sector workers would try to justify it.

So is your problem with me or the system?

JizzBeans · 17-09-2019 10:08pm

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Well OP, you clearly give a **** because of this rant.

But Religion and Geography hardly counts as teaching now does it?

Why wouldn't it?

JizzBeans · 17-09-2019 10:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Teaching unions are the most powerful in the country, so this "hands are tied" argument falls flat. Of course they have the ability to affect change. Handing it off the government is a convenient excuse for inaction, rather it's complacency among the teachers themselves.

"Last time I checked society hasn't collapsed". Hyperbolic drivel.

You clearly have no idea how bureaucracy works

ZV Yoda · 17-09-2019 10:16pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I bet a 'Religion Teacher' is basically a makey up job the school had to drum up to keep him busy as they could not make him redundant.

:rolleyes:

This is exactly the kind of rubbish constantly spouted by teacher bashers.

Are you aware that religion has been a leaving cert subject since 2005?

It's ironic that the people who are intent on giving teachers a hard time are the same people who can't even be arsed educating themselves on the topic before they start waffling.

JizzBeans · 17-09-2019 10:19pm

ZV Yoda wrote: »

:rolleyes:

This is exactly the kind of rubbish constantly spouted by teacher bashers.

Are you aware that religion has been a leaving cert subject since 2005?

It's ironic that the people who are intent on giving teachers a hard time are the same people who can't even be arsed educating themselves on the topic before they start waffling.

Don't bother, this guy is the type of beer garden tosser I referred to in my OP,

partyguinness · 17-09-2019 10:20pm

Is it still the case that you have to join a TU when you take a teaching job?

I went out with a teacher around 2005 (not for long- self righteous cow) and she said she had to join and pay subs to whatever TU was in her school. Said she had no choice.

There is a general rule of thumb in business circles- the more unionised a work place is the more inefficient it is.

Think about it. Makes sense. The most secure job sector in the country is the public sector- all heavily unionised.

TU's are just about feather bedding and maintaining the status quo but dress it up that they are protecting workers rights.

ZV Yoda · 17-09-2019 10:22pm

JizzBeans wrote: »

Don't bother, this guy is the type of beer garden tosser I referred to in my OP,

Ah, I know that... I'm just pointing out the obvious.

Thoughts of an unapologetic teacher

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